"hunters" and the .223

Ok so I just finished listening to this debate right. We the opposing guy who wants all these 2A restrictions pulls out the CLASSIC " Look I'm a hunter ! I hunt deer and ducks " and that whole waffle about not need ign an AR-15 right
Well later in in the debate he asks who hunts with a .223 and the other guy point blank says " well I do , do it all the time. " Then he asks " You eat that ? With all that damage ?"and you can tell just by listening to his voice he is absolutely 100% perplexed with this idea

Now I gotta ask.... because I'm not the brightest light in the chandelier and all.... What hunter ... Who hunts deer , even semi regularly, who could have enough knowledge about terminal ballistics,in it's simplist forum to the point they should be taken seriously when discussing firearms ,( big bullet make big hole small bullet make small hole ) be suprised that you hunt deer with a .223 for any reason other then thinking it's too small ?

Like seriously. If this guy's is as much of a FUDD as I think he is he's probably hunting here with some old .30 cal something or heck just a 12ga. I know he's had to seen that what he bops Bambi with ith legit 2x as big as a .223. like I've been at the range and have some little wangster gangsters come up with their hi points and I blow there minds when I tell them them big rounds in my box ar 30-06 and they go in my bolt action 1917 and not my super scary Ar15. But a guy who's trying to use his " hunter status" as leverage..... No no no no just no.

Like this whole debate is pretty painful from the fact this guy just plain didn't seem to grasp that criminals generally don't buy guns in any legal form what so ever to thinking that there's no way we could take on the us military with AR-15's and win.....even though Taliban man , the Ukrainians , the Vietnamese, ect would reaaaally say other wise..... To just the burning obvious face this guy has probably never been in a situation where he felt he needed to be armed. It's all just so painful but a "hunter" wo thinks a .223 causes too much damage... Just completely de-legitimized most of this guy's argument to me. But like I said idk like I said I'm not too bright. Is there some underlying.... Thing.... about the .223 I'm missing that would make a seasoned and knowledgeable Hunter wince at the thought of using it due to too much damage ..... Or is this guy full of it ??

I'd say the guy's full of it. The way I was raised and how I think, .223 is definitely on the small side of the cartridge range I'd like to be at for deer. Granted, I don't take headshots. Heck, I feel undergunned using it on coyotes. I started hunting coyotes with a .30-06 (too much gun, but it's all I had at the time), then moved to a .22-250. Compared to the .22-250, the .223, in my mind, is kind of a pea shooter. Slower velocity, less energy, more drop.

Gun control is in the bearers hands.
The political aspect is not caliber specific. Nor game law applicable. The second amendment is what it is. Period.

Osky

I have shot a deer with an AR in 5.56 but that was when I was younger and had just got my first AR. It only went 50 yards with double lung hit no exit from that varmint bullet . Had I not seen it fall there was no blood trail to follow. Honestly now I don't like them even for coyotes much preferring a 243 or bigger for bang flop vs bang spin flip flop especially when distance increases.

Its all math, weight x speed equals energy. period. I would argue that a bigger caliber bullet creates a bigger hole, larger wound channel. Tell them to follow the science.

The 223 is plenty for coyotes in my opinion. With the correct bullet it makes an acceptable deer load. Ive killed more coyotes with a 22. calling throughout the yrs than all my larger calibers combined. shot placement is key but I've had more than a handful gather themselves an high tail. 22 never leaves truck so I use what I have when I have time

I have had people argue with me that the .223 is some kind of super bullet that causes massive damage and I ask how many shot deer have you examined? It's just common sense, bigger bullet more tissue damage... If that little bullet hits a bone and shatters, you have lots of tissue damage right there on the surface, but that's not what you want. If you place it right it's going to do a lot less damage than a 30 caliber. I would feel more comfortable with at least a .243.

Most people and unfortunately many hunters don't understand whatba bullet does or doesn't do. Let alone understand know various bullet designs and compositions do. You can red mist a squirrel with a 22 or just poke a hole in it depending on shot placement and bullet type.

Similar to discussions on broadheads. Some of the broadheads out there should not even look at a bone of a deer even out of high powered crossbows

Shot a deer with a 22 250 once. Heart shot . It walked about 10 yds and fell over dead. Not a drop of blood on ground or on deer. We couldn't even find the entrance hole until we skinned it.. And this was with a Remington core lok bullet designed for heavier game than varmints. No external blood is a big reason I don't like 22 calibers for deer. If the deer runs a little ways with a marginal hit like liver or one lung it will be unnecessarily hard to find.

he is believing the media that 223 is this super weapon

there is this generation that watched Dan Writher on the evening news that thinks 97% of what they hear on the TV is legit. when it is more the other direction 3% of tv these days is real. My aunt is in this way nicest persons and has done so much to help my grandparents , she is my uncles 2nd wife and 50% more sane than the last one but but mention guns out side of us hunting with a shotgun and she is 10000% bat guano crazy believes 100% of the lies and weapons of war and yet ask her about income taxes or some stupid law and all them politicians are lying

I just can't understand how she can believe the gun lies , well because she thinks the they are the experts and never put 2 seconds into thinking about he physics or everything she knows they are lying about.

and the 223 super weapon lie is propped up by the number of dead in a shooting with one and people see 10. 15 , 17 and think this is a massive number they have no clue that was the work of an idiot with 1/2 a second of planning and almost no training

they want so hard to believe that a simple change of something that means nothing to them will make a safer world , the harsh reality is it was never a safe world but they are a Disney pre-woke generation and they like that fantasy that people haven't brutally killed each other for centuries

223 sure it isn't a pistol but in all reality it is a varmint round that with the right bullet can do decent on deer.

you almost have to wonder how many deer this guy has shot.

we call those the Deer hunting Libs here

everyone in WI has got a cousin or brother in law or someone who fits in this deer hunting lib category

and the Fuddery abounds

my great grandfather who died in 1963 thought the 22 hornet was the perfect deer round , because he had been a fairly early adopter of the cartridge some time in the 30s , they never shot deer anywhere but the head and neck and it shot very well. their longest shot was also 100 yards
they shot a fair number tending their orchards

he only had his evidence a 32 win spl , 30-30 or larger didn't do anything different when a deer is shot in the neck so why have the recoil


if you hunt like your archery hunting 223 with good shot placement you probably never chase a deer at all

my great uncle talks about how he never saw a deer his dad shot with the 22 hornet take more than 3 steps falling over and I never saw that great uncle shoot a deer anywhere but the neck he used a 20ga slug the 28 years we hunted together. also never saw him take a shot past about 50 yards and that was to put down a deer a cousin already had a round in before it got to far mostly he was 35 yards and in.

The 2nd amendment is not about hunting.

I watched this a couple of days ago and the some thing caught my attention.
Colin should of asked what he used to hunt deer with. Asked him about his hunting experiences.
I don't think Colin did a very good job at all, he had lots of opportunities to show the guys ignorance.

A 22 cal is too small,
but bow and arrow is ok.
lol

Edit, did not watch the movie or read the OP, just googler.

Colin is a nice guy and he is catching up quick in guns , but he came to guns late already an adult , he seems to be good people but I just don't think he has the decades of gun culture knowledge yet , he seems to be a fast learner.

Personally, when I actually hunted deer with a firearm, I used a .338 win mag, or a .375 H&H. Big heavy bullet that doesn’t even think about expanding before it’s exited the deer. Near zero bloodshot meat even when bone is hit. So yes, in my opinion, a .223 does too much damage! LOL

For deer the smallest calibers I would use are either a 243 or 6MM in an 80 to 100 grain bullet.

He really missed his chance not bringing up Chicago's restrictive laws and stellar job they do. But in the moment and on the spot he did ok.

Not much personal experience with 223 but 22-250 really flops deer.

That's all that needs said to anyone to end such a stupid argument for gun control. The "you don't hunt with a AR15" argument is a mute point. (and wrong as well as many of us do.)

Maybe he thinks the guy is unloading the whole 30 rd mag in the deer! Lol

that would be sort of pointless , either it has run off out of sight or it fell over before you get more than 3-4 in it , even with as fast as you can shoot 223

your correct and this statement does shut down a lot of the argument right off.

Yes, I was kidding.

223 Won’t work on deer. I hear that they are wearing Kevlar vest now.

I know , but people believe that kind of thing.

like politicians using the cyclic rate of something as it's rate of fire never thinking about the stop to reload you can't fire 900 rounds a minute if you need reload ever 30 rounds
and besides you burn up the gun like that typically in less than 600 rounds

.223 is a legal caliber for the taking of small game in Ontario LOL... I find that "hunters" can be the most ignorant of laws as applicable to firearms and the real world performance of any gun besides his grandfathers 3030 winchester... commonly known as Fudds, the gun control types consider them useful idiots

lots of folks today have much to say about things they are ignorant of....women more than men but there are many womanly men around now.

Here's the solution

Perfect !

It'll blow a deer's lungs right out.

Such sage observations, Kart , no wonder we remember those stunning quotes

So far one of my AR 15’s are 11 for 11 on deer. The AR10 is 3 for 3. I have shot nothing but hogs with both and they are all dead.
To me, and this is just me personally, there is no better gun for a child. The stock is adjustable to fit their smaller frames. Hardly any recoil. I will say with kids it’s somewhat limited range on deer…75yds or less, but every deer has fell within sight.
After they graduate from the AR15 they can move up to the AR10 for extended range. Heck most never even paid attention to the difference. They’re all Black Rifles, lol.
I prefer the AR for hogs. More shots fired equals more holes in them, and that’s all I want.
Is it a preferred deer cartridge? Probably not. But like every thing else, shot placement is key.

Funny story. We swapped the 10 for the 15 on a hunt due to that particular stand location and the deer travel. After the shot the kid said that ain’t the same gun! When asked was it the recoil he said No, it was the fact that deer did a back flip and died right there where he shot it…5.56 vs 7.62, lol.

And that kid saw first hand why I prefer any 308 based round over a .223 or 5.56. Terminal preformance. Will my 5.56 kill everything I shoot with it absolutely. But not as often with instant results like the 308 based rounds.

.223 is not for me for Deer hunting, but I don't care what so.some else uses.

Having listened to that " debate" I am taking the AR15 off truck duty and put the M14 in its stead behind the seat. It also has a wood stock making it a more hippie music friendly sort of a firearm. And not chambered in that vicious 223 caliber round.

Up until a few years ago a .223 wasn't a legal caliber to use for deer in MN. No 22 calibers were.

I get a chuckle when I hear how "powerful" they are.

Caliber has zero to do with
Bullet type does

I can’t think of the name of the report, but didn’t JFK’s bean counters decide the 5.56 was not only more economical, but caused more casualties than deaths. The thought being that one wounded soldier took two more out of the fight . I think it was back in the seventies that I read this report so forgive me if I left out some details.

If you repeat a lie often enough most of the people will start to believe it..sheep are plentiful.

only worked on nations that had medics and cared to treat injuries.

if your men and women were completely expendable pawns it made no difference accept they might know they are dead and fight harder to stop the pain sooner and inflict all the damage they could first.

you would think JFK having served in the pacific would have understood expendable people as a concept.

I used to think the .223 was too small. Not anymore. Grandson drops them DRT.Good bullets and shot placement make a difference with any rifle caliber.

I can do that with any 40gr .22lr also but the does not mean it is an adequate deer round.

Just look what all Ryan shoots up north with a.22 mag. It works well for him but illegal for the rest of us and a lot of hunters should not try it not having the skills he has.

22 mag is poachers cal of choicej

When subsistance hunting, a .22 LR has killed alot of deer. Even a .17 in the head at close range will put deer meat on the table. Shot placement is everything.

My 9 year old (at the time) grandson and my AR. Along with target practice I would bring up deer pictures on the internet. Had him put his finger on the spot the bullet had to go depending on the angle. Its a lot like bowhunting. Get in range shoot careful. not rocket science at all.

P.S. there is nothing to be gained by talking to someone who thinks the government can protect them from gangsters and other miscreants.

it is "reasonable equipment" if it works

they dropped all caliber restrictions for Deer in WI by saying "reasonable in reducing game to bag"

was talking with our warden he wanted to write a guy a ticket so bad for unreasonable equipment 17hmr but the deer didn't take 2 steps shot placement is everything with the little guns and 60% even on the big guns
the guy did get the tickets for shooting out of season poaching and trespassing. but the warden was told with as well as 17hmr worked they couldn't call it unreasonable.

treat it more like archery hunting and 223 works fine

I shot a buck with a 223 varmint soft point round lungs shot , slipped it high through the ribs it makes a mess of those lungs and it went 25 yards it definitely works just zero blood when it laid down dead even .
just what came out it's nose and mouth.

If you want a good deer bullet for the 223 or similar , the 62 grains Barnes TSX or TTSX are pretty darn good. I use them in my 223 WSSM now, but even in the 223Rem you get an exit wound with them for the most part. If I remember right, Remington sells loaded ammo with the TSX in 223Rem and call it Hog hammer.

Pea shooters.

I have only killed 3 deer with my. 223. Don't plan on shooting anymore. I like high shoulder shots. Both bucks fell where they stood but took a 2nd round to finish. My 6.5 Grendel, I've killed almost 50 . Beast of a round on an AR15 platform.

I plan to use/setup my handi-rifle this year .223 for deer season. Single shot break. 3x9 Vortex 50mm scope.

There are some heavier ammo out there. 62grain to 77 grain. But you need the right barrel twist for the heaviest bullet.

I have some Australian Outback @ 69gr. HPBT Matchking. at 100 yards they should work well.

match bullets aren't made for game some may work

Hornady white tail
Deer season XP
Full Boar
nosler ttsx
Barnes tsx
federal fusion
federal nosler partitions

they are all 55 to 62 gr bonded or copper bullets

the problem with most 223 bullets is they are soft points or polymer tip type for varmints and they come apart too fast or they are FMJ or match.

then in the minority is bonded or monolithic copper bullets that hold together and expand

your handi rifle can be 1:12 or 1:9 twist the 1:9 should handle any of the 62gr and under the 1:12 you might want to try the 55gr ones first

62 grain Nosler partitions make a nice mushroom and dont break apart. Have not tried the barnes tsx in 223 but I expect they will do the same thing. They sure shine in my 300 win mag anyway.

My grandpa once told me, when I asked if a 22 would kill Caribou, that "ALL animals are made of flesh and bone and bleed just like us so how far would you want to get shot by a 22?"

223 isn't my first choice for grizzly or moose but it will kill them. More than enough for Wolves and Caribou imo.

"red means run, son. Numbers add up to nothin'"

Did you ever wonder why there are so many different guns/calibers/configurations?.It's because all weapons are a compromise.

Personally, I love them all; and use a huge variety. The biggest deer of my life probably dropped the fastest from one shot out of near worn out 7.62x39 SKS.

Lately I have been having bear problems. I can't carry big bear medicine every time i step out of my house. But, I can carry a .45 ACP super +P, heavy lead shaped to penetrate bear fur. Not ideal, but, will work better than the artillery still back at the house.

I've killed over 2 dozen hogs, many over 200#, with 73 grain Hornady ELDM handloads from my AR.
Longest shot was 214 yards on about a 175# sow. One shot. She ran in a circle then fell.