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Mark of the beast comes from the middle east

Posted By: Wolfdog91

Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 04:25 AM

....this was ... interesting only 45sec or so
https://youtube.com/shorts/t4VrexXPL9I?feature=share
Posted By: NonPCfed

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 04:39 AM

Interesting. A good region for a "Man of Peace" to emerge from
Posted By: red mt

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 06:46 AM

Interesting topic,,,, but if you believe in the catching up of the bride or church you will not be here...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 11:48 AM

I'm a Pre-Tribulation (Rapture) believer based on Scripture.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 12:11 PM

So the beast from the East will most likely be brown?
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 12:33 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
I'm a Pre-Tribulation (Rapture) believer based on Scripture.



I have not studied like you. Yet this just does not seem right. The bible is one story after another different but the same message on repeat.

All of the disciples suffered and I think most killed. Jesus was killed and suffers. Many early to current Christians are martyred. Somehow that Christians get off with a beam me up scottie and get to avoid it seems wrong. But Jesus dieing for me also seem wrong but is what was done so what do I know
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So the beast from the East will most likely be brown?

Washington DC is east of most of us is it not?
Posted By: Trap Setter

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 12:40 PM

I believe on a globe you could keep going east forever. So I would say you are correct Wolfdog. wink
Posted By: Shakeyjake

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 01:13 PM

If you look hard enough you can connect anything you want together. Can come up with all kinds of BS.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
[Linked Image]


lol
Posted By: uglyduck

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/06/23 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Trap Setter
I believe on a globe you could keep going east forever. So I would say you are correct Wolfdog. wink

You have a very good point there
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Providence Farm
Originally Posted by Mark June
I'm a Pre-Tribulation (Rapture) believer based on Scripture.



I have not studied like you. Yet this just does not seem right. The bible is one story after another different but the same message on repeat.

All of the disciples suffered and I think most killed. Jesus was killed and suffers. Many early to current Christians are martyred. Somehow that Christians get off with a beam me up scottie and get to avoid it seems wrong. But Jesus dieing for me also seem wrong but is what was done so what do I know


All of it is miraculous indeed. There are four main theological schemas of how the final Coming of Jesus to reign again are played out but I, like others, are of the pre-tribulation, dispensational camp. This theology has grown in acceptance since only the 1800's as scholars attempt to literally blend the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation as the Scripture lays out. I know you study the Word PF, so here's a clip from one of my courses that's a solid summary of this pre-trib view;

"Premillennial eschatology is distinguished by an emphasis on a literal reading of biblical prophecy, as well as a belief in a future for national Israel, a future period of tribulation before the return of Christ to earth to establish his millennial kingdom, and a subsequent final judgment. Premillennial eschatology seeks to integrate and harmonize all biblical prophecy into one comprehensive scheme, which is primarily based on Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation. Premillennialism also gave birth to the concepts of the rapture, a two-stage return of Christ, and a strict separation between Israel and the church."

Blessings and Happy New Year!
Mark
Posted By: bandy

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 01:50 PM

Guys in looking for the upper taker not the antichrist I got a ticket on the G train many years ago. There has always been a antichrist on this earth because the devil doesn't know when we are leaving. So he has always had someone waiting in the wings for this day to come.
Posted By: Guss

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 02:10 PM

Dont take it!!! Stand strong for Jesus!.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
[Linked Image]

Funny stuff
Posted By: Donnie H

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
I'm a Pre-Tribulation (Rapture) believer based on Scripture.


I'm with Mark on this...


Donnie
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Providence Farm
Originally Posted by Mark June
I'm a Pre-Tribulation (Rapture) believer based on Scripture.



I have not studied like you. Yet this just does not seem right. The bible is one story after another different but the same message on repeat.

All of the disciples suffered and I think most killed. Jesus was killed and suffers. Many early to current Christians are martyred. Somehow that Christians get off with a beam me up scottie and get to avoid it seems wrong. But Jesus dieing for me also seem wrong but is what was done so what do I know


My belief is Mid-Trib. I believe believers will go through the first roughly 3.5 years of Tribulation. Then be raptured before the next 3.5 really bad years of tribulation.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can read Jesus's own words in Matthew 24 and be Pre-Trib when Jesus explicitly says otherwise.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The verses leading up to these ones describe the early phases of Tribulation... the wars, famines, martyring of Christians, etc.

But really... Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib are all just guesses because:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:36
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 03:49 PM

Very true yotetrapper30
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 09:37 PM

What is the mark of the beast?
Translation from the new testament Greek.
Mark=scratch or etching, i.e.stamp. ( as a badge of servitude) or sculptid figure = graven.
Beast =like a wild animal. God created man in his image. Man become a living soul. ( when man rejects God he becomes like a beast, no longer in fellowship with God)

Why 666
6 is the number of a man
Man was created on the 6th day. Gen1:27-31

So why 3- 6s
God has 3 characteristics or 3 persons, depending on interpretation
God= Father, Son, Holy Ghost . Man is created in God's image =
= soul, body, spirit.

Denying God.
Spirit= 1st John ch4 vs 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirit's whether they are of God: because many false profits are going out into the world.
Body= Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors,not to the flesh, to live after the flesh, 13For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Soul= Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body:but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in he'll.

These verses in scripture may be a starting point to understanding how to avoid the mark of the beast.
Posted By: wildflights

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by bandy
Guys in looking for the upper taker not the antichrist I got a ticket on the G train many years ago. There has always been a antichrist on this earth because the devil doesn't know when we are leaving. So he has always had someone waiting in the wings for this day to come.


That is an interesting thought.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 11:53 PM

Yotetrapper you and I are on the same page. But you know that modern Bible scholars will tell you that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to us because Jesus was speaking to the Jews.

If the tribulation last 3.5 years and the wrath of God last 3.5 years then it only makes sense that Matthew 24 and the rest of the Olivette discourse also applies to us. As Jesus said is Mark 13
Mark 13:37 KJV
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So apparently this scripture does apply to everyone, or Jesus would be a liar and he's not.

There is no biblical basis for anything other than a post tribulation/pre wrath rapture, and I believe that these lies have been propagated into modern Christian group think by folks who want us to stay quiet and silent as the world descends into a one world govt. So that they can then usher in the Antichrist and go to war with the saints.... War with the saints, huh... How can the Antichrist go to war with the saints if they are all raptured out?

He can't. There is so many holes in the modern dispensationalism false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture that it makes my head spin.

Modern dispensationalism that is a brainchild of John Nelson Darby and pushed by Scofield reference bible is the only reason anyone even believes or pushes this doctrine. There is 0 basis is scripture for it. Absolutely none.

But it sure cucked the Christians didn't it? Makes us as docile as the world leaders need us to be. Tolerant if you will

I'm not tolerant, I'm not docile, I don't believe horse feathers and I'll never buy that garbage. But I'm only one man. I call myself a Bible believing Christian but that means the world hates me for it. Even the "Christians" that have bought into this doctrine.

Sorry I think my rant is over. Check back later
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/07/23 11:54 PM

Oh I'll add this.... I don't believe the mark of the beast will be anything like the world tells us it will. It won't be a chip, or barcode. It's going to be spiritual because all of those who receive it have to worship the beast and his image. It will be Lucifer's version of the Holy Ghost indwelling the saints. It will be a spiritual seal that you can never remove and will (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) you till the day of reformation
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Yotetrapper you and I are on the same page. But you know that modern Bible scholars will tell you that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to us because Jesus was speaking to the Jews.

If the tribulation last 3.5 years and the wrath of God last 3.5 years then it only makes sense that Matthew 24 and the rest of the Olivette discourse also applies to us. As Jesus said is Mark 13
Mark 13:37 KJV
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So apparently this scripture does apply to everyone, or Jesus would be a liar and he's not.

There is no biblical basis for anything other than a post tribulation/pre wrath rapture, and I believe that these lies have been propagated into modern Christian group think by folks who want us to stay quiet and silent as the world descends into a one world govt. So that they can then usher in the Antichrist and go to war with the saints.... War with the saints, huh... How can the Antichrist go to war with the saints if they are all raptured out?

He can't. There is so many holes in the modern dispensationalism false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture that it makes my head spin.

Modern dispensationalism that is a brainchild of John Nelson Darby and pushed by Scofield reference bible is the only reason anyone even believes or pushes this doctrine. There is 0 basis is scripture for it. Absolutely none.

But it sure cucked the Christians didn't it? Makes us as docile as the world leaders need us to be. Tolerant if you will

I'm not tolerant, I'm not docile, I don't believe horse feathers and I'll never buy that garbage. But I'm only one man. I call myself a Bible believing Christian but that means the world hates me for it. Even the "Christians" that have bought into this doctrine.

Sorry I think my rant is over. Check back later



We usually argue theology with humility and an understanding that as followers of Christ, all of us who are finite are illuminated and gifted by the same infinitely powered Spirit that rose our Lord from the grave. Ken, I respect your theology but your paint brush for those who don't believe as you do is flawed because it's too harsh.

Most importantly, God's promise according to Scripture, of a bodily resurrection and an eternity with Him for His followers being a gift of divine grace is far, far greater than any debate among the faithful about the chronology of Jesus, Israel and the Church's future happenings.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 03:22 AM

Pre tribulation rapture started in the 1800's.? Like I said I have not studied as much as I should and am working on it but besides what I all ready stated that just seems a bit to new age for me. I should gave asked my preacher about his thoughts tonight at bible study.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 04:22 AM

Yes Mark I agree that we usually agree. And maybe bring so divisive isn't the best tactic though that is what Jesus came to do. Divide, fullfil and save. There is no basis in scripture it is only found in the libraries of man made books where better trained and more knowledgeable men than me tell you what they know to be true based off of other men's teachings. If you can show my just one clear scripture that proves a pre-tribulation rapture is love to see it, because I know the true Word of God doesn't contradict itself even one time.

I'll just say it upfront so we are all out in the open about it. Mankind has been lead astray by men telling other men what the Bibles says and means. We have no need that any man teach us but that Holy Ghost teacheth comparing spiritual with spiritual, meaning new and old testament, meaning scripture with other scripture. Not the Bible with man's teachings (See 1 Corinthians 2).

Seminary, Bible college, often times Sunday school, and creepy televangelists are all perverting the gospel, the truth of Gods word, and the clear doctrines that any saved man can read from the Bible and gleen the truth from. I know you are a well educated man when it comes to modern "biblical" education, and this post is not a direct attack on you or twords you, I am however sworn to defend the faith. As a Christian I will never sit idly by and be quiet when the only real defense I have of the Word of God is my own voice and education I have received at the hands of the Holy Spirit.

So with that out of the way Jesus had something to say about the Scribes and Pharisees, who like many in modern times believed they are more educated than the lowest of Hebrews, and it wasn't good. They killed him for it infact.
The point I am making is no one on the green earth has the right to tell other men they just can't understand the Bible because they don't have the proper education, or have the right concordance, or study Bible, and that is exactly what very educated men from seminary, Bible college, or a pontifical college do; they teach the men underneath them that they know better, and that they will show you the way. It's one of my biggest pet peeves and something that gets me pretty riled up. And I'll admit I am one of the worst Christians you will know but I'm going to heaven no matter what when I die, not because of my own works, which I have done, but because of Jesus'perfect, finished works. I know this because the Bible says so. Not because men taught me this, men more often than not teach the exact opposite. They teach a false works based salvation, and a separation between one group over the other. That's not biblical al men are on the same playing field and all men can be saved by putting their faith on what Jesus did for us.

Dispensationalism the brainchild of John Nelson Darby, who by the way is a reprobate for removing scripture out of God's word, is the driving force for all of this horrible doctrine that is taught in modern Bible college. And I am a 0 point dispensationalists. Everything that fool said was a lie and meant to pervert the truth for his own gain. And the funny thing is is he didn't even realize his dream in his lifetime. After years of touring the Americas to spout his blasphemous views he died without ever seeing where it would go, but Oxford pushed it into the Scofield reference bible and made it biblical fact amongst Bible believing Christians and now that doctrine and all of it's offspring is taught to every kid in Bible college on the planet as biblical cannon. Which it is not and the purpose for disseminating this wicked doctrine was to turn the Christians into weaklings so they would not stand up against the world government. This was a plan that had been in action since before the 1830s and there's not a man alive today that grew up in a time where these doctrines were not shoved down their throats as fact.

I will never entertain the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture because no one has ever produced a scripture to prove it. But I can produce many that prove a post-trib and pre-wrath catching away.
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 04:34 AM

I believe that things, especially the Bible, are too convoluted to believe anything. Wait and see.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 05:00 AM

I will respond again tomorrow with all of the scripture that comes to mind to prove my position above. For now here is the best timeline chart I've seen on the catching away or rapture. Anyone who is interested should read it and consult the Word of God(KJV) to see it's authenticity.

Daniel's 70th Week
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 05:01 AM

Don't wait and see when it comes to your salvation Rex. Anyone can be saved. Forget everything you've ever learned and approach the Gospel as a child. Any man can be saved an sealed with the Holy Spirit by putting ALL of their faith on the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's that simple.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 05:20 AM

Ken you make some very good points. Thank you for sharing
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Providence Farm
Pre tribulation rapture started in the 1800's.? Like I said I have not studied as much as I should and am working on it but besides what I all ready stated that just seems a bit to new age for me. I should gave asked my preacher about his thoughts tonight at bible study.


PF, I didn't post that PreTrib theology began in the 1800's, but I did post that its acceptance has grown since that time.
As a pastor, here's what I preach and teach and it emanates from Mark's record of what Jesus said to the scribes (attorneys so to speak) of His time and is taken straight from Moses words from God to the Israelites (Deut 6:4 and Lev 19:18);
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

I remember this quote often as it reminds me of the primacy of things to come...
“The great doctrine of the second advent has in a sense fallen into disrepute because of . . . this tendency on the part of some to be more interested in the how and the when of the second coming rather than in the fact of the second coming.” – Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I also remember Eschatology is all about Jesus and that He alone paid the price for sin and was Risen from the grave.... and that He has not yet returned.
And when he does, believers will be with him forever (1 Thess. 4:18).
Christians should encourage one another with these words and study eschatology with hope and joy.
And extend grace to one another as we study Scripture because God first loved us.

Love God, Love Others.
Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 09:35 AM

Ken, I read your post and wonder why you seem so opposed (based on your post) to followers of Christ gathering together and studying together for extended periods of time in places like seminaries and bible colleges? Maybe you had a bad experience at some point with someone who attended seminary? Or a Bible College? Me too. But that's not unique to those who venture to study the Word of God on a campus. I've met some pretty harsh folks who study (they say) at their kitchen table I guess. My experience at seminary was quite different than the picture you paint. I learned from incredibly brilliant people who were incredibly humble serving as they do as teachers of God's Word, which I thought was remarkable since my first experience in grad school back in the late 70's and early 80's was to learn (biology) from very smart people who were incredible pompous about their academic status.

Jesus' disciples were taught for at least two years, and some scholars place that time frame as closer to three years, before our Lord sent them out as Apostles. And the early church established a three year period of study, based on Jesus' example with His disciples, for those individuals who said, "I believe." And the Church Fathers all were discipled for years.... Polycarp by the Apostle John and on and on. It's always been this way. People gathering and learning from those who preceded them and have studied at great length.

Now, in our post-modern era, our culture shuns and even rebukes authority and so "Seminary is cemetery" is falsely claimed. In our Western-ized brand of the Gospel, it's often taught all a believer needs is an emotional inkling of Jesus in their heart and a Bible to fully know God. "I see that hand!" is the 1960's quickie version of what used to be a walk with God for extended periods of time with others in the faith. Now, sadly, we're a culture in the West steeped in Salvation... so once I've got mine, good luck to ya! is too easily claimed as the wrong theology of those God calls His Children.

But in any prideful bubble of "me and my Jesus", we don't have to struggle with the Love Others instruct from our Lord.
When we say we alone hold the truth, well then other people's opinions of Scripture, worship songs, church iconography and all the rest irritate us to no end.

So it's best to gather as Jesus' disciples did, under the tutelage of those who preceded us in the faith and who've devoted themselves to Loving God and Loving Others.
These gatherings will of course stretch us, test us, make us rethink things through 1000 times over, but in the end have us consider where we extend our grace, as the testament of our God who first loved us.

Our aim should be always to arrive at a point, as we gather together and study the Word of God deeply together, that we come to the wondrous realization that God is far grander than we could have ever imagined. That's what sound biblical teaching does to us. By God's grace and by His Spirit in us.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 01:55 PM

I really like your response Mark. And I agree with a lot of what you said. My issue isn't with Christians gathering together or studying together. My issue rather is with the standardized teaching of false doctrine to the masses by way of Bible college or seminary. I don't have any bad experiences with people in these institutions I have a problem with the lies they push as fact. It's not all men in these institutions and I know that the biggest part of Christians that attended and work for these institutions are good people wanting to share the knowledge and grace they learn there. That doesn't change that fact that 99% of the flase doctrine that exist comes from these institutions and their teacher's.

It doesn't change the fact that dispensationalism is a devil's doctrine that has rotted the ability for people to see and understand the clear doctrines in the word of God. Only a saved man with the Holy Spirit can begin to understand the Bible. Salvation is only by grace through faith and nothing more, anyone trusting in anything else is unsaved and cannot understand the Bible anyway because the Holy Ghost is the teacher. Not a man, not a school and not a study Bible or commentary. If we compare spiritual with spiritual there is no verse, not one to prove any doctrine of dispensationalism.

Be blessed
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 05:27 PM

If the antichrist was not of Jewish descent the Jews would not trust him, would they?

The tribe of Dan won't be in the 144,000, will they?
Posted By: LT GREY

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/08/23 09:48 PM

All I really want is a decent price on 'coon. . . laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
I really like your response Mark. And I agree with a lot of what you said. My issue isn't with Christians gathering together or studying together. My issue rather is with the standardized teaching of false doctrine to the masses by way of Bible college or seminary. I don't have any bad experiences with people in these institutions I have a problem with the lies they push as fact. It's not all men in these institutions and I know that the biggest part of Christians that attended and work for these institutions are good people wanting to share the knowledge and grace they learn there. That doesn't change that fact that 99% of the flase doctrine that exist comes from these institutions and their teacher's.

It doesn't change the fact that dispensationalism is a devil's doctrine that has rotted the ability for people to see and understand the clear doctrines in the word of God. Only a saved man with the Holy Spirit can begin to understand the Bible. Salvation is only by grace through faith and nothing more, anyone trusting in anything else is unsaved and cannot understand the Bible anyway because the Holy Ghost is the teacher. Not a man, not a school and not a study Bible or commentary. If we compare spiritual with spiritual there is no verse, not one to prove any doctrine of dispensationalism.

Be blessed


My response is humble and offered in that framework, but your view on dispensationalists would include me, and a great many worthy followers of Christ, who strive to read Scripture literally (including prophecy) and believe that Israel is separate from the Church.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 05:41 AM

Thou sayest Mark, thou sayest.
This is the position you have chosen to take. There is no verse that separates Israel from all other saved people anywhere in the Bible. And you cannot produce one. But I can produce verses to prove this is not true and will do so , but first I will destroy the doctrine on a pre-tribulation rapture with the Word of God as I previously said I would

1) The Olivette Discourse
This is the passage in scripture where Jesus is sitting on the Mt. of olives and is asked "what shall be the sign of thy coming?" By his disciples. (and I know the first response by a dispensationalists is to claim that these were only spoken to the Jews, because all of his disciples were Jews, but Simon was a Cyrenian, and Judas was a reprobate)
Here is the verse so we are all on the same page.

Matthew 24:3-4 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-Notice Jesus'response

[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

This is a verse I take very literally, and so should every Christian. See Jesus knew that all throughout time men would attempt to deceive Christians by creating lies about his coming. So the first thing out of his mouth and response was to tell them not to be deceived. Then he follows with a very carefully worded response.

Yotetrapper already picked the juicy parts out of Matthew 24 that prove the catching away(rapture) comes after the tribulation and it couldn't have been any clearer. Because God is not the author of confusion.
Here is that passage.

Matthew 24:29-33 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Before we dissect the scripture and everything Jesus said in it I want you to notice what he said in verse 33 and I want to post the parallel scriptures from Luke and Mark.

Jesus said in verse 33 when ye shall see ALL these things, KNOW that IT is NEAR.

So what is near? well the return of Jesus, and the end of the world.
What are all of these things? These are the many events Jesus described above.
What does the word know mean? It means to perceive with certainty; to understand clearly, and to have a clear and certain perception of Truth, fact, or anything that actually exists

The Bible clearly teaches that God is true and every man a liar. So Jesus never lied to us, not one time, in fact it was impossible for him to lie

Titus 1:2 KJV
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice in that verse that the Bible's teaching you that God cannot lie especially about the hope of eternal life.

But I digress, let's continue with the other 2 scriptures.

We are going to start with Luke 21 even though it is out of order for the scriptures because I want to save Mark for after.
This is the beginning of the scripture where the disciples ask Jesus about his return, and below you see his initial response is the same as Matthew.

Luke 21:7-8 KJV
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
[8] And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Be not deceived

The latter verses

Luke 21:25-31 KJV
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in
the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
[28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[29] And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
[30] When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
[31] So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Notice the same order of events and statements.
1 Signs in the sun and moon, and it is recorded in Matthew they will be darkened
2 Then shall you see the Son of man coming in a cloud, same as Matthew
3 Then Jesus taught about the parable of the fig tree, which is instrumental and we will get into that after this.
4 And finally Jesus tells them that when they see these things come to pass know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This is a very clear statement from Jesus Christ our Lord and savior that all of those things must come to pass and then the rapture, or catching away, or the kingdom of God is nigh (which means near) at hand. So all of these things must first come to pass.

Now in the book of Luke the term "After the tribulation" is not recorded, but before Luke 21:25 through 31 you get a description of the tribulation that the Christians that are on earth must suffer. Here is a few of those verses to help you understand how the Antichrist makes war with the saints.

Luke 21:10-12 KJV
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[11] And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
[12] But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

So we see here that Nation will rise against Nation that earthquakes shall be in diverse places, and famines, and pestilences, and fearful sights and Great signs there shall be from heaven, BUT before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before Kings and rulers for the sake of Jesus's name.

Funny statement there from Jesus that whenever they lay their hands on you, and persecute you, that they will deliver you to the synagogues. That's a side note, let's continue.

Now the first verses from The book of Mark

Mark 13:3-6 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
[4] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
[5] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
[6] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and shall deceive many.

Notice all of the points I made above are still here and have not changed.

Then the latter part.

Mark 13:24-29 KJV
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[28] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
[29] So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Notice the same order of events and signs as recorded in the book of Matthew
1) After the tribulation
2) The sun and moon are darkened
3)The stars fall from heaven
4) And then shall you see Jesus coming in the Clouds
5) then his Angles gather together his Elect (which is saved Christians) from earth to heaven.
6) then the parable of the Fig tree.

The last verse of Mark 13, as I said above proves that these scriptures are for all, not just the Jews.

Mark 13:37 KJV
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

And remember all scripture is profitable for doctrine

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Now this post it too long and I am afraid of losing it so I am going to continue this in the next post right now..
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 06:20 AM

The next thing we need to do in order to be true to the Word of God is to compare these scriptures with other scriptures comparing spiritual with spiritual as the Bible says.

So we find these topics discussed in 3 separate places. The first being the book of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5. Now I believe that even dispensationalists believe 1 Thessalonians 4 to be a scripture directly discussing the catching away. This is a scripture that is not debated by any religion that I am aware of.

I will post the scripture below and explain the correlation to the Olivette discourse

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Verse number..
13) instructs you not to be ignorant, not to sorrow those who believed and have already died
14) says if you believe the gospel (the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ) that this is proof that all of those which previously believed and have died will also be resurrected. This is when all of the physically dead Christians that lived on the Earth are resurrected with a new body.
15) is very plain to understand
16) this is where we see the return of Jesus from heaven meaning from the clouds and the resurrection of the dead.
17) this verse clearly teaches that those which are still alive will also be caught up together with them in the clouds.
18) verse 18 is one of the most comforting scriptures in the Bible and used by pastors all over the planet to help people deal with death.

But what you don't see in 1 Thessalonians 4 are the first verses of 1 Thessalonians 5. It is important to understand that in the original manuscripts of the Textus Receptus(which means the received text and is the original text of ancient Hebrew Greek and Aramaic) that there were no numbers for the books or the scriptures and that these letters were written as a full letter so there is no separation between chapter 4 and chapter 5. And anybody with basic English skills, which I have very little of can see this by reading the first word of the first verse of chapter 5.

That word is But, but is a conjunction which means it is continuing the thought or statement from the previous word or verse.

Here are the scriptures of chapter 5

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 KJV
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [
6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Verse number..
1) Paul is telling the Thessalonians that he doesn't need to write to them about the season and times, why you might ask, because Jesus already clearly taught us that we will see those things come to pass and then the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. They already KNOW this.
2) the term thief in the night is used by people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture that it's going to happen suddenly and you will have no idea that it's going to happen. But Paul explains that that only applies to those who are in darkness.
3) this verse is strangely similar to versus out of the olivette discourse that explain the hardships that Christians will have to go through in the tribulation
4) this is the verse where Paul says to the Thessalonians that they are not in darkness and that that day will not overtake them as a thief that comes in the night.
5) everyone saved with the Holy Ghost is a child of light
6) therefore we should be sober and so many verses use those two words watch, and sober. These words go together very often because in order to watch and pay attention to the signs that are coming you must have a sober mind.
7) obviously the opposite of sobriety is drunkenness which is what verse 7 has to say
8) verse 8 more of the same teaching us that we should be faithful and use love and have hope of salvation
9) verse 9 is the verse that dispensationalist used to claim that we are raptured out before the tribulation. The main problem with this doctrine is that there is a difference between the tribulation of the saints, and the wrath of God. The Bible teaches a separation between these two at about 1260 days of one, which is the tribulation, and 1260 days of the other which is the wrath of God. God could not be here to have wrath unless he had returned. This verse proves that Jesus comes back after the tribulation, and after the Great tribulation, which last for 75 days, is the wrath of God that we are saved from. Which is why we are raptured out after the tribulation before the wrath of God.
10) verse 10 compliments the last half of verse 9 which teaches that salvation is only obtained by our Lord Jesus Christ because of his death, and whether we're dead or alive we will live together with him.

Now these are all facts that the Bible clearly teaches and any man can clearly understand these if they first believed and are sealed with the Holy Ghost.

This is one of the three places this comes up. My next post will show all of you including Mark the unrefutable proof from the prophecy of the book of Revelation that lines up exactly with these two previous groups of scripture the olivette discourse, and 1st Thessalonians.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 07:06 AM

In this post will go through the book of Revelation. Before we start the book of Revelation I want to let everyone in on an Open secret. The book of Revelation has 22 chapters and is split directly in half after chapter 11 between chapter 12. This is a common theme that we see in the Bible and a good example is the split between the New and Old testament. The book of Revelation tells the exact same story two separate times from two separate perspectives. I will not be able to go into depth on the entire book of Revelation that would take me weeks and hundreds of thousands of words and probably 200 to 300 post. So without pushing this off any further let's deal with the events in Revelation that line up directly with the olivette discourse and 1st Thessalonians.

Let us first remember the order of the events that happened in the olivette discourse

1) After the tribulation
2) earthquake and the sun and moon are darkened
3)The stars fall from heaven
4) And then shall you see Jesus coming in the Clouds
5) then his Angles gather together his Elect (which is saved Christians) from earth to heaven.
6) then the parable of the Fig tree.

So the first verses I will post come from the 6th chapter of Revelation

Revelation 6:9-17 KJV
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Verse number...
9-11) I included to show you that the tribulation has passed. The souls of those who were killed by the Antichrist are already at the Throne of God in heaven, and they cry out to God for his wrath upon the Antichrist and his army. Then their ribs are given to them.
12) The 6th seal is opened which sets off the events leading to the return of Christ and happens before the rapture because we shall see him coming in the clouds. Then we see the events start to take place.
-1) earthquakes
-2) sun and moon darkened
13) The stars fall from Heaven, and the connection with the fig tree.
14) heaven opens like a scroll
15-16) proof Jesus Christ is coming with wrath and judgement for all the unsaved of the earth.
17) proof that the wrath of God is nigh, but not before the catching away.

Remember these things are the signs of the kingdom of heaven being nigh, or near, or close. But it is not yet. So we turn over to chapter 7 to see the results of the signs bmand prophecy being fulfilled of the return of Jesus.


Revelation 7:9-12 KJV
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Now before I use plain speech to explain the verses I want to tell you why I left out verses 1-8. These are important verses that deal with the 144,000 and is as plain as day who they are and what that means. They are sent to earth to preach the gospel to all those who are not yet reprobate that did not get raptured. It does name the tribes but replaces Dan with the younger son of Joseph who was blessed over his older brother by Jacob on his deathbed.
The tribe of Dan made mistakes and was cut off.

Anyways the Angels gather at the four corners of the earth and gather the saints, or the elect before the 144,000 are sent.

So verse number...
9) you first see the rapture of those that are dead or asleep, and of those that are alive and remain in heaven clothes in white robes.
10) they cried until God and worshiped him.
11) the Angels likewise
12) and the praise continues.


These are the events that prove that the rapture happens after the tribulation and that the events leading to the return of Christ are the signs we must see before he comes back.
If you read the first half of Revelation 6 you will see the other seals in The four horsemen and these are the events that are the tribulation. You see the war in the famine and the pestilence and the death and then you see The return of Christ. Don't ever forget and be not deceived these events must come to pass before Christ returns in the clouds.

The biggest problem with the doctrine of dispensationalism and its many false wicked doctrines, one of which is the pre-tribulation rapture, is that the people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture will believe that the Antichrist is Christ because the Antichrist comes before Christ. See the elect already know this to be true and cannot be deceived by the Antichrist. So the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is satanic at it's core. And once again I know you cannot provide one scripture to prove it. Because it cannot be done. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This is why Jesus warned to be not deceived

Luke 21:8-9 KJV
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. [9] But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

This is further proof that the first four seals bring about the four horsemen of the Apocalypse that is the tribulation that the saints must go through. The Bible has the word tribulation 25 times and the greatest percentage of the times it is mentioned it's about Christians going through a type of tribulation. Not being raptured out before it.

I put 2 hours into this tonight and this is all the time I have after 6 hours of trapping tomorrow and 9 hours of work I will get back on here and destroy the doctrine of the Fall separation of the Jews and the Christians.

Be blessed
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 08:43 AM

So is there two wives or one?

The 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins and John the Baptist would be friends of the the Bridegroom, wouldn't they belong to the Father?

john 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 09:36 AM

I wouldn't label anyone a heretic based on their view of the book of Revelation, it's not even something to get overly exercised about. Make your calling and election sure and the rest will take care of itself.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 10:23 AM

Ken, you lost me at your first harsh sentence. I didn't read the rest. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Scripture has been wondrously examined and debated by faithful saints long before 1611. And we do it still.
As a fellow believer, I urge you to consider that we don't - in love and humility for one another - debate one another with terminology like you use prior to quoting God's Special Revelation for us, which everyone - believers and non-believers alike - call the Bible.

Daggum.... Are you one of dem Baptists? grin whistle laugh

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
I wouldn't label anyone a heretic based on their view of the book of Revelation, it's not even something to get overly exercised about. Make your calling and election sure and the rest will take care of itself.


Agreed brother Posco. It'll take an eternity to sit alongside our Lord and learn day by day the infinite splendor about Him. The Bible is God's Story miraculously inspired and written down for us to know Him, so that we might fall deeper in love with our Creator. That is what we should focus on. Praise God for His Special Revelations of Scripture and His Son.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Jurassic Park

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken, you lost me at your first harsh sentence. I didn't read the rest. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Scripture has been wondrously examined and debated by faithful saints long before 1611. And we do it still.
As a fellow believer, I urge you to consider that we don't - in love and humility for one another - debate one another with terminology like you use prior to quoting God's Special Revelation for us, which everyone - believers and non-believers alike - call the Bible.

Daggum.... Are you one of dem Baptists? grin whistle laugh

Blessings,
Mark


You’ve posted pages and pages worth of verses from the bible and your personal beliefs, and when someone shares his you cut him off by saying he’s too harsh and it’s not worth reading.

Your head is so far up your own butt man!

Just can’t handle another trapper sharing the gospel eh!
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 07:36 PM

I'm a Christian. I place my trust in the fact that I'm saved because Jesus shed his blood on the cross to save the world. If that's not so, then there's no hope for mankind. All of us are doomed.

Whether you believe in pre-trib, mid=-trib, or post trib, is immaterial. If you don't believe that, you will encourage more to flee.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Jurassic Park
Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken, you lost me at your first harsh sentence. I didn't read the rest. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Scripture has been wondrously examined and debated by faithful saints long before 1611. And we do it still.
As a fellow believer, I urge you to consider that we don't - in love and humility for one another - debate one another with terminology like you use prior to quoting God's Special Revelation for us, which everyone - believers and non-believers alike - call the Bible.

Daggum.... Are you one of dem Baptists? grin whistle laugh

Blessings,
Mark


You’ve posted pages and pages worth of verses from the bible and your personal beliefs, and when someone shares his you cut him off by saying he’s too harsh and it’s not worth reading.

Your head is so far up your own butt man!

Just can’t handle another trapper sharing the gospel eh!

Hmm I've heard that before...
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 08:35 PM

Trapper 7 I agree. I had a few min and decided to catch up, but it doesn't matter what you believe on the end times because we will all see the same thing, but it does matter what you teach. No one should ever teach anything other than what the Bible says. If that was the case across the board then we wouldn't even be debating this wicked false doctrine.

I'm not a humble man, nor an upright Christian. I'm a wicked sinner that deserves to go to H3!!, But thank God that he sent his only begotten to pay my price. That being said I will never be shifted by the big words, and articulate, and charismatic responses of those who choose to believe something other than the Bible. The facts are already written. Most men just don't read or understand them.

Mark it's fine you didn't read the response. It wasn't for you in the first place. My response was for the ears and eyes listening and reading alone so that they can see the truth when confronted with a false doctrine such as dispensationalism. I never called you a heretic or a false prophet so don't any of you start making false accusations. I am however of the mind that Darby, and Scofield are both heretics, false prophets and reprobates. Imagine how you men will feel when you when you realize the men you chose to listen to rather than the clear teachings of Jesus are burning in H3!!. That'll be a sad day.

But I'll never have that regret. My foundation is unshakable and can never be removed. Something you will never see me do is lean on a man's wisdom to understand the clear teachings of God in the Bible.

Like I said I'm a prideful, arrogant man but saved none the less. I will respond to the other false doctrine later this evening when I have time.

1 Corinthians 2:4-8 KJV
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 08:53 PM

Unfortunately, you come across as if you don't believe this doctrine is false, you are doomed to eternal punishment. You make that your primary objective when compared to true faith, it's petty. That's the point I was trying to make. I see it as legalism. It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.

It's like some who feel if you're not a Baptist or a Catholic, or a Methodist, you can't be saved. Ridiculous!

There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/09/23 10:34 PM

You've let your pride blind you. While your think you're doing good and speaking the truth, you're actually doing the Adversary's work. You should try to find some humility before trying to spread the Word.
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:28 AM

Name one religion other than Islam ( Muslim ) that preaches to kill unbelievers ! There's isn't one. You can say Christian , in the old testament , but not once Jesus was born! Yet that's the religion that's spreading across the world with the help of OWO,   One World Order . Obama made sure as many Muslims as he could get into our country got here! Minnesota got many of them , same as Michigan , now where are the Muslims in government offices?
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:32 AM

Song of Solomon 8:7-8
7 Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.

8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?
Posted By: upstateNY

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jurassic Park
Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken, you lost me at your first harsh sentence. I didn't read the rest. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Scripture has been wondrously examined and debated by faithful saints long before 1611. And we do it still.
As a fellow believer, I urge you to consider that we don't - in love and humility for one another - debate one another with terminology like you use prior to quoting God's Special Revelation for us, which everyone - believers and non-believers alike - call the Bible.

Daggum.... Are you one of dem Baptists? grin whistle laugh

Blessings,
Mark


You’ve posted pages and pages worth of verses from the bible and your personal beliefs, and when someone shares his you cut him off by saying he’s too harsh and it’s not worth reading.

Your head is so far up your own butt man!

Just can’t handle another trapper sharing the gospel eh!

I have noticed that Mark will quote scripture till he is blue in the face,,but does not always seek the truth.
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:00 AM

Too many are anti Christian any more.
Just like the NFL was anti Tim Tebow PRAYING ON THE FIELD.
Yet a week ago it was OK !
Wake up !
WOKE ISN'T THE ANSWER!
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.


There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.


But aren't there conditions set on salvation? Repentance and faith. We're commanded to repent and believe, those aren't options. I've seen some who claim unbelievers can be driven away through discussions such as this. I don't see how it's possible. The Lamb's book of life was written before the foundation of the world. It's fixed and Christ will lose none.
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ohio Wolverine
Name one religion other than Islam ( Muslim ) that preaches to kill unbelievers ! There's isn't one. You can say Christian , in the old testament , but not once Jesus was born! Yet that's the religion that's spreading across the world with the help of OWO,   One World Order . Obama made sure as many Muslims as he could get into our country got here! Minnesota got many of them , same as Michigan , now where are the Muslims in government offices?

Have you ever read Foxes book of martyrs? What about the crusades? And don't forget who put Jesus on the cross. Every religion has martered Christions since the death of Christ, including so called Christians. There were no Christian before Christ, but there were plenty of peaple killed in the name of there self righteous interpretation of the law.
Posted By: Boco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:56 AM

The Inquisition was carried out to identify heretics.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Boco
The Inquisition was carried out to identify heretics.

Like people who brought the Bible to the masses?
Posted By: Boco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Boco
The Inquisition was carried out to identify heretics.

Like people who brought the Bible to the masses?


No the inquisitions were carried out by the bible thumpers against those jew and muzlim heretics.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Boco
The Inquisition was carried out to identify heretics.


Or like people who refused to baptize babies?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:05 AM

You have a poor understanding of your church history, Robert.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Trapper 7 I agree. I had a few min and decided to catch up, but it doesn't matter what you believe on the end times because we will all see the same thing, but it does matter what you teach. No one should ever teach anything other than what the Bible says. If that was the case across the board then we wouldn't even be debating this wicked false doctrine.

I'm not a humble man, nor an upright Christian. I'm a wicked sinner that deserves to go to H3!!, But thank God that he sent his only begotten to pay my price. That being said I will never be shifted by the big words, and articulate, and charismatic responses of those who choose to believe something other than the Bible. The facts are already written. Most men just don't read or understand them.

Mark it's fine you didn't read the response. It wasn't for you in the first place. My response was for the ears and eyes listening and reading alone so that they can see the truth when confronted with a false doctrine such as dispensationalism. I never called you a heretic or a false prophet so don't any of you start making false accusations. I am however of the mind that Darby, and Scofield are both heretics, false prophets and reprobates. Imagine how you men will feel when you when you realize the men you chose to listen to rather than the clear teachings of Jesus are burning in H3!!. That'll be a sad day.

But I'll never have that regret. My foundation is unshakable and can never be removed. Something you will never see me do is lean on a man's wisdom to understand the clear teachings of God in the Bible.

Like I said I'm a prideful, arrogant man but saved none the less. I will respond to the other false doctrine later this evening when I have time.

1 Corinthians 2:4-8 KJV
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I for one appreciate it Ken. I like the way you put it out there and you have given us a lot to read and think about. Thanks!
Posted By: Boco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
You have a poor understanding of your church history, Robert.

Bull.
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Giant Sage
Originally Posted by Ohio Wolverine
Name one religion other than Islam ( Muslim ) that preaches to kill unbelievers ! There's isn't one. You can say Christian , in the old testament , but not once Jesus was born! Yet that's the religion that's spreading across the world with the help of OWO,   One World Order . Obama made sure as many Muslims as he could get into our country got here! Minnesota got many of them , same as Michigan , now where are the Muslims in government offices?

Have you ever read Foxes book of martyrs? What about the crusades? And don't forget who put Jesus on the cross. Every religion has martered Christions since the death of Christ, including so called Christians. There were no Christian before Christ, but there were plenty of peaple killed in the name of there self righteous interpretation of the law.


Can you explain why the crusades even started? You focus on the event yet don't take the time or interest in the why.
Do you even know when it started?
Do you know when Muslims became followers of Mohammad the inventor of Islam ?
Do you know why history is being destroyed?
Wake up .
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 04:24 AM

Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Giant Sage
Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich


From what you're posting, is non believers in any religion ( heretics ). Guess you could go back to Noah and the ark. You're right that there were no or very few Christians until Jesus started teaching. But the word of God was known , and that a savior was coming. Those that killed him weren't believers in Christ , but believers in their times. Much like our times now, sports ( gladiators , games of death , lions killing followers of Jesus , anything to keep the people happy , and not thinking about the real life happenings) , think about it.How many watch football just because they've bet on the games? If they didn't bet , the games become less important. Same with most sports , either you have played or been involved with the sport , is what drives you to watch . EXCEPT BETTING ON THE OUT COME MAKES YOU FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE BUT THE GAME! Diversion is the name of the political game , been that way for thousands of years.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
Unfortunately, you come across as if you don't believe this doctrine is false, you are doomed to eternal punishment. You make that your primary objective when compared to true faith, it's petty. That's the point I was trying to make. I see it as legalism. It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.

It's like some who feel if you're not a Baptist or a Catholic, or a Methodist, you can't be saved. Ridiculous!

There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.



Ok trapper7 I'm going to put my previous goal of eviscerating the false Israel church separation on pause and use the Bible to prove that people who do not believe in a biblical catching away are most likely unsaved and those who teach it are most likely reprobate.

So strap in, cuz now I'm exited

Now to first respond to what you said I'll say this
I know plenty of people who believe dispensationalism that are not reprobates, but I don't know of any people who teach dispensationalism that are saved. I know that both Darby and Schofield are burning in H3!! And I can prove it with one scripture from the Bible if you know anything about their writings and teachings. If you don't then it's doesn't matter what Bible verse I share with you because you need to understand what they have done to realize their spiritual condition.

Don't for a second believe that Bible doctrine of any kind is a minor issue. We as Christians are to always defend the faith and preach the gospel. Just as Jesus did and his disciples they had to combat the false doctrine of their time in order to break the people's minds free from the cognitive dissonance of the Pharisees, priest, and Scribes. He did this by questioning these groups in front of the people and allowing the people to see how weak and shallow their responses were. It works.

Your comment about coming to Jesus as a child is great, I agree children don't know enough to get involved with the complications and receive the gospel at a much higher rate than adults who have made up their minds. It's a great thing to lead a child to Christ. But a babe is Christ doesn't have to be a child. There are babes in Christ in every church in America that are older than 50 because this has to do with the type of doctrine they know and understand and can digest. I am not a babe is Christ so I don't approach false doctrine as one. I would hope that the Bible that have shared will edify anyone who reads it.

So now I will show you what the Bible says about those who don't believe in the biblical catching away. Take out of this what you choose.

The Bible is clear on the coming of the Lord that the saints cannot be deceived by the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be d@mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Verse number..
1-2) Paul is telling the Thessalonians how they should not be deceived as if the Day of Christ is at hand because something has to happen first. We covered what this things are in the previous post but in verse (3) he sums it up as "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first", saying again not to be deceived by any man.
This is a very clear reference to the tribulation, and the Antichrist that makes war with the saints. If you don't believe that then read verse 4
4) verse 4 teaches who it is that will come FIRST and it is a man that will attempt to sit in the temple of God and shew himself to be God. This is the Antichrist
5) Paul explains that he already told them this
6) Paul tells them what is now preventing the day of the Lord, and that is that the Antichrist has not yet been revealed.
7) Paul explains that the mystery of iniquity is already at work on the Earth, and that this will continue until the Antichrist is taken out of the way.
8) and then when Jesus Christ comes back(brightness of his coming) the Antichrist will be destroyed with the spirit of his mouth. Okay this means the word of God the sword of the spirit the fact that God opens his mouth and destroys all of those who stand against him( see Rev 19:15,and 21).
9) once again a reference to the Antichrist that is destroyed because he comes with power and signs and lying wonders claiming that he is Christ.
10) and he also destroys all of those that are deceivable and unrighteous because they receive not the love of truth that they might be saved.
11) because they received not the love of the truth God sends them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie, this why is dispensationalism in today's modern times, this lie is believing in a pre-trib rapture because whenever you do that the first person to come is the Antichrist as the Bible says in second Thessalonians 2.

So if the Antichrist comes first who then do you believe is taking you to heaven?

Remember God gave them the strong delusion God turned them over to believe a lie God gave them up.

Why? Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because they chose not to believe the gospel.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So what is the result of not believing the gospel and being sent a strong delusion that they would believe a lie?

Verse 12.. that they all might be d@mned who believe not the truth.

So the scripture that Paul gives to the Thessalonians after he discussed in 1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 about how they know the order of the end times and should be comforted in the fact that the saved people they know will be resurrected by Christ, is teaching them that the people who don't understand this will eventually be d@mned.

And this is why that is true because the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ paid for all of the sins of every person on the planet, and that when they believe on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that they KNOW not only that they have eternal life because Jesus did promise that, but that they hear his voice and they will know the difference between Jesus and the antichrist. In a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine the only person that will show up first is the Antichrist and the pre-tribulationist believe that they will be raptured out before the tribulation. so when they see the Antichrist come and sit in the throne of God in the temple of God showing himself that he is God who do you think they're going to believe?

It's so simple even my kids can understand this.

So be p!ssy if you want. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believeth to the Jew first and to the Greek.

and I am not ashamed that I know the Bible well enough to be able to combat these horse feathers false doctrines that are being pushed on mankind today. I am truly sorry that you have been sucked into this but am I therefore your enemy for because I tell you the truth?


Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:45 AM

I'm still waiting for someone to produce one verse that proves a pre-tribulation rapture or the Jew Church separation. Just one verse, cuz I've got hundreds to prove it's not true
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ohio Wolverine
Originally Posted by Giant Sage
Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich


From what you're posting, is non believers in any religion ( heretics ). Guess you could go back to Noah and the ark. You're right that there were no or very few Christians until Jesus started teaching. But the word of God was known , and that a savior was coming. Those that killed him weren't believers in Christ , but believers in their times. Much like our times now, sports ( gladiators , games of death , lions killing followers of Jesus , anything to keep the people happy , and not thinking about the real life happenings) , think about it.How many watch football just because they've bet on the games? If they didn't bet , the games become less important. Same with most sports , either you have played or been involved with the sport , is what drives you to watch . EXCEPT BETTING ON THE OUT COME MAKES YOU FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE BUT THE GAME! Diversion is the name of the political game , been that way for thousands of years.

I was using heretics as an example. I get were your coming from Ohio about the believers in the coming Savior. It seems that there must been atliest 144000 that believed.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:50 AM

This is a heretic

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 06:08 AM

This is why I don't go to church tired
Posted By: .204

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
This is a heretic

[Linked Image]

Are you a follower of Stephen Anderson and his teachings?
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is why I don't go to church tired

That's OK Wolfe salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Not by a building through a religion. Keep searching for truth and go to God in prayer and he will give you answers.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 11:57 AM

This thread reminds me of having discussions with Pentecostal's on the state of my baptism since I was baptized in a Baptist church. It has been determined, by such folks, that being baptized in the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost is insufficient. Only baptisms in the name of Jesus are acceptable.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton
This thread reminds me of having discussions with Pentecostal's on the state of my baptism since I was baptized in a Baptist church. It has been determined, by such folks, that being baptized in the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost is insufficient. Only baptisms in the name of Jesus are acceptable.


Do we even need baptism anymore now that there is Facebook?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 12:20 PM

Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:01 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:27 PM

I'm a follower of Christ and his teachings. Remember Jesus is the Word of God. This is why you can only compare scripture with other scripture in the Bible. It seems this core doctrine has been lost amongst men and the result is clear by this thread. Everyone going their own way and no one agreeing on the foundation.

See if it were possible for us to all to agree we would walk together with just this one idea in mind. That idea is Christ and him crucified, but we can't agree, because even though I believe most of us in here honestly believe that Christ was God in the flesh and faith on his death, burial, and resurrection is what saves us; we have to debate the clear scriptures in the Bible because we cannot agree.

We have been fractured as Christians because men have moved in and taught us lies and doctrines like dispensationalism. They have split our families with labels such as baptist, or Methodist. This fracturing is by design. We were supposed to let NO MAN DECEIVE us, but the deceivableness of men seems to be even weaker than the flesh. We have become a nation of men with no foundation. No wonder this nation crumbles underneath us.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:42 PM

Here is one of Jesus' teachings.

John 6:28-29 KJV
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith alone is all you need. Try and add anything to it and it's not what was intended.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
[Linked Image]

AMEN!!!
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 02:48 PM

Parts of this thread is starting to remind of the little girl that goes to school and the bully steels her lunch after chasing her and wearing her down. Then to appease her, gives her something shiny as a replacement. Guess maybe that's how replacement therapy got started, lol.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:11 PM

The "Beast" is probably something like ChadGPT. Not a live being.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Trapper7
It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.


There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.


But aren't there conditions set on salvation? Repentance and faith. We're commanded to repent and believe, those aren't options. I've seen some who claim unbelievers can be driven away through discussions such as this. I don't see how it's possible. The Lamb's book of life was written before the foundation of the world. It's fixed and Christ will lose none.

So you are of the crowd that believes in predestination? That everything that happens has already been determined by God? If so, then faith is worthless. If you truly believe, you can't help not be repentant.

As far as driving unbelievers away: I teach firearm safety. In MN they estimate that 10% of the population are hunters. 10% are anti-hunting. The other 80% are neutral.
If hunters were to dump carcasses in a ditch, or leave garbage in a Wildlife Management Area, or have some deer tied to their car in public view, and one of the 80% were to see these things, how do you think they would feel about hunters and hunting? It's the same when all this petty arguing takes place regarding salvation.
Posted By: Boco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:36 PM

You're all a bunch of heathens.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Giant Sage
Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich

Do you ever watch Bill Maher's show? He's very anti-Christian. Yet, on his show one night he said, the difference between Christians and Muslims is Christians don't kill you for not becoming a Christian or for leaving the Christian faith.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is why I don't go to church tired

Perfect example, KS.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Originally Posted by Trapper7
Unfortunately, you come across as if you don't believe this doctrine is false, you are doomed to eternal punishment. You make that your primary objective when compared to true faith, it's petty. That's the point I was trying to make. I see it as legalism. It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.

It's like some who feel if you're not a Baptist or a Catholic, or a Methodist, you can't be saved. Ridiculous!

There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.



Ok trapper7 I'm going to put my previous goal of eviscerating the false Israel church separation on pause and use the Bible to prove that people who do not believe in a biblical catching away are most likely unsaved and those who teach it are most likely reprobate.

So strap in, cuz now I'm exited

Now to first respond to what you said I'll say this
I know plenty of people who believe dispensationalism that are not reprobates, but I don't know of any people who teach dispensationalism that are saved. I know that both Darby and Schofield are burning in H3!! And I can prove it with one scripture from the Bible if you know anything about their writings and teachings. If you don't then it's doesn't matter what Bible verse I share with you because you need to understand what they have done to realize their spiritual condition.

Don't for a second believe that Bible doctrine of any kind is a minor issue. We as Christians are to always defend the faith and preach the gospel. Just as Jesus did and his disciples they had to combat the false doctrine of their time in order to break the people's minds free from the cognitive dissonance of the Pharisees, priest, and Scribes. He did this by questioning these groups in front of the people and allowing the people to see how weak and shallow their responses were. It works.

Your comment about coming to Jesus as a child is great, I agree children don't know enough to get involved with the complications and receive the gospel at a much higher rate than adults who have made up their minds. It's a great thing to lead a child to Christ. But a babe is Christ doesn't have to be a child. There are babes in Christ in every church in America that are older than 50 because this has to do with the type of doctrine they know and understand and can digest. I am not a babe is Christ so I don't approach false doctrine as one. I would hope that the Bible that have shared will edify anyone who reads it.

So now I will show you what the Bible says about those who don't believe in the biblical catching away. Take out of this what you choose.

The Bible is clear on the coming of the Lord that the saints cannot be deceived by the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be d@mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Verse number..
1-2) Paul is telling the Thessalonians how they should not be deceived as if the Day of Christ is at hand because something has to happen first. We covered what this things are in the previous post but in verse (3) he sums it up as "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first", saying again not to be deceived by any man.
This is a very clear reference to the tribulation, and the Antichrist that makes war with the saints. If you don't believe that then read verse 4
4) verse 4 teaches who it is that will come FIRST and it is a man that will attempt to sit in the temple of God and shew himself to be God. This is the Antichrist
5) Paul explains that he already told them this
6) Paul tells them what is now preventing the day of the Lord, and that is that the Antichrist has not yet been revealed.
7) Paul explains that the mystery of iniquity is already at work on the Earth, and that this will continue until the Antichrist is taken out of the way.
8) and then when Jesus Christ comes back(brightness of his coming) the Antichrist will be destroyed with the spirit of his mouth. Okay this means the word of God the sword of the spirit the fact that God opens his mouth and destroys all of those who stand against him( see Rev 19:15,and 21).
9) once again a reference to the Antichrist that is destroyed because he comes with power and signs and lying wonders claiming that he is Christ.
10) and he also destroys all of those that are deceivable and unrighteous because they receive not the love of truth that they might be saved.
11) because they received not the love of the truth God sends them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie, this why is dispensationalism in today's modern times, this lie is believing in a pre-trib rapture because whenever you do that the first person to come is the Antichrist as the Bible says in second Thessalonians 2.

So if the Antichrist comes first who then do you believe is taking you to heaven?

Remember God gave them the strong delusion God turned them over to believe a lie God gave them up.

Why? Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because they chose not to believe the gospel.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So what is the result of not believing the gospel and being sent a strong delusion that they would believe a lie?

Verse 12.. that they all might be d@mned who believe not the truth.

So the scripture that Paul gives to the Thessalonians after he discussed in 1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 about how they know the order of the end times and should be comforted in the fact that the saved people they know will be resurrected by Christ, is teaching them that the people who don't understand this will eventually be d@mned.

And this is why that is true because the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ paid for all of the sins of every person on the planet, and that when they believe on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that they KNOW not only that they have eternal life because Jesus did promise that, but that they hear his voice and they will know the difference between Jesus and the antichrist. In a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine the only person that will show up first is the Antichrist and the pre-tribulationist believe that they will be raptured out before the tribulation. so when they see the Antichrist come and sit in the throne of God in the temple of God showing himself that he is God who do you think they're going to believe?

It's so simple even my kids can understand this.

So be p!ssy if you want. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believeth to the Jew first and to the Greek.

and I am not ashamed that I know the Bible well enough to be able to combat these horse feathers false doctrines that are being pushed on mankind today. I am truly sorry that you have been sucked into this but am I therefore your enemy for because I tell you the truth?



I leave judging a person's heart to God. No one is capable of doing that, including you, it's God's problem. Based on what you've said, if a man is in error regarding scripture, he is cannot be saved.
I have no opinion on the tribulation. I guess you didn't get that part. Of course it will happen when it happens. It's not a prerequisite to my salvation. I guess that's where we differ.
Here's what I know for sure: 1John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life". That's all that matters to me.
You aren't my enemy. Am I yours?
Posted By: rick brocious

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is MY EXCUSE why I don't go to church tired
Fixed it for you .
Posted By: rick brocious

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
Unfortunately, you come across as if you don't believe this doctrine is false, you are doomed to eternal punishment. You make that your primary objective when compared to true faith, it's petty. That's the point I was trying to make. I see it as legalism. It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.

It's like some who feel if you're not a Baptist or a Catholic, or a Methodist, you can't be saved. Ridiculous!

There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.
Hmmm .
Posted By: rick brocious

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:50 PM

I must be getting a different take on what Ken is saying then all of you that are criticizing him .
Posted By: rick brocious

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark

I take it the stay at home thesis promoters is a jab at Ken .
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 06:40 PM

Rick thanks for the back up. I appreciate it!

Trapper7, 1 John 5:13 is on of my favorite verses. So that verse is great for teaching people that salvation is only by grace through faith and that when a person is saved they know they will go to heaven no matter what.

Now to the topic of repentance that you spoke about. Repentance is necessary for salvation because a person can't believe in a false gospel and the true Gospel. You can't serve two masters. But repentance is not defined properly in modern times. Often when you hear someone talk about repentance they use the phrase "repent of your sins" this prepositional phrase "of sin" is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible defines repentance as to turn.
So if I believed in Buddha and heard the gospel preached to me I would have to turn away from my false god and repent or turn to the one true God which is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, God the Father of the only begotten Son. This is biblical repentance.

Teaching repentance of sin as a requirement for salvation is blasphemous against the gospel and not in the Bible. But the Bible does touch on the subject in Jonah chapter 3 and teaches that turning from your evil way is a work. And salvation is without works lest any man should boast.

Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Notice how it also defines repent as to turn. And if you look the term repent up in the Bible then it is apparent that most of the times it's used God is the one repenting. If repentance means to turn your from sin then that would make God a sinner. He is not. God is righteous and just and never could sin.

So this brings me to your comment about me making judgments. And to that sir you are drastically wrong, and a little right too. I'll explain... The Bible clearly commands all saints to judge, but a righteous judgement is one that is God's written judgment. So God already has the judgment written, it is the honour of the saints to exercise this judgment and get justice. This is why I don't stray from the Bible. I'll show you 5 passages below and you can judge for yourself wither these things be true.

The command-

Leviticus 19:15 KJV
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

The honour-

Psalm 149:6-9 KJV
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
[7] To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
[8] To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
[9] To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

Jesus' setting the record straight-

Matthew 7:1-6 KJV
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Notice he is instructing those to be upright in order to make a righteous judgment.

Next is Jesus scolding the Pharisees for not doing judgment. Don't be a pharisee learn to do righteous judgment.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Just a few verses after this Jesus calls the Pharisees "Whited sepulcher" because they are clean on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones. I mean Jesus was a hardcore defender of the true wasn't he. I want to be like that.

Finally we have Paul scolding the Corinthians for the same thing and explaining to them that even the least among them, you know the babe is Christ is prepared to judge the judgments written.


1 Corinthians 6:2-5 KJV
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
[4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?


So I'll end this by saying that I am commanded to judge by God. Who is any man to tell me different?


Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by rick brocious

I take it the stay at home thesis promoters is a jab at Ken .


Possibly, when people are backed into a corner the instinct is to attack or lash out. I would hope that the clear scriptures in the Bible would reform a person's belief in bad doctrine and they would repent and believe the biblical doctrine. Sometimes admitting we are wrong is the most humble thing we can do and being truly humble is often the hardest thing to accomplish.

So it's easier to make false accusations and call names. I spoke about Darby, and Scofield. I spoke about their deeds and how they are reprobates. I spoke about the doctrines they pushed and how it is a doctrine of devil's and is responsible for messing up the gospel message and therefore d@mn!ng good people to H3||, and somehow it turned into how he was all of these things. If thats how he wants to take it so be it. And the same to anyone else.

I will never sit by and allow such a doctrine to be taught in my presence. We need more men like Jesus and Elijah and less like Darby and Scofield.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:20 PM

Luke 5:32...you managed to miss that.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Rick thanks for the back up. I appreciate it!

Trapper7, 1 John 5:13 is on of my favorite verses. So that verse is great for teaching people that salvation is only by grace through faith and that when a person is saved they know they will go to heaven no matter what.

Now to the topic of repentance that you spoke about. Repentance is necessary for salvation because a person can't believe in a false gospel and the true Gospel. You can't serve two masters. But repentance is not defined properly in modern times. Often when you hear someone talk about repentance they use the phrase "repent of your sins" this prepositional phrase "of sin" is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible defines repentance as to turn.
So if I believed in Buddha and heard the gospel preached to me I would have to turn away from my false god and repent or turn to the one true God which is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, God the Father of the only begotten Son. This is biblical repentance.

Teaching repentance of sin as a requirement for salvation is blasphemous against the gospel and not in the Bible. But the Bible does touch on the subject in Jonah chapter 3 and teaches that turning from your evil way is a work. And salvation is without works lest any man should boast.

Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Notice how it also defines repent as to turn. And if you look the term repent up in the Bible then it is apparent that most of the times it's used God is the one repenting. If repentance means to turn your from sin then that would make God a sinner. He is not. God is righteous and just and never could sin.

So this brings me to your comment about me making judgments. And to that sir you are drastically wrong, and a little right too. I'll explain... The Bible clearly commands all saints to judge, but a righteous judgement is one that is God's written judgment. So God already has the judgment written, it is the honour of the saints to exercise this judgment and get justice. This is why I don't stray from the Bible. I'll show you 5 passages below and you can judge for yourself wither these things be true.

The command-

Leviticus 19:15 KJV
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

The honour-

Psalm 149:6-9 KJV
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
[7] To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
[8] To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
[9] To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

Jesus' setting the record straight-

Matthew 7:1-6 KJV
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Notice he is instructing those to be upright in order to make a righteous judgment.

Next is Jesus scolding the Pharisees for not doing judgment. Don't be a pharisee learn to do righteous judgment.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Just a few verses after this Jesus calls the Pharisees "Whited sepulcher" because they are clean on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones. I mean Jesus was a hardcore defender of the true wasn't he. I want to be like that.

Finally we have Paul scolding the Corinthians for the same thing and explaining to them that even the least among them, you know the babe is Christ is prepared to judge the judgments written.


1 Corinthians 6:2-5 KJV
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
[4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?


So I'll end this by saying that I am commanded to judge by God. Who is any man to tell me different?



Ken,

I agree with your wholeheartedly that repent means to turn. If I'm walking in sin, but now have put my faith and trust in my savior, Jesus. I have repented or turned from my sin. It doesn't mean now I'm perfect or sin free at all. But, I have learned to hate my sin. We still have the dual nature that haunt us. I still do the very things I despise.

Your quoting Matthew 7: 1-6 is exactly the point I was making. Judge not, lest you be judged yourself, for as you judge you shall be judged yourself. Unless you feel you qualify as self-righteous. If you do, my hats off to you. I know I don't qualify for that honor. Evidently you and I interpret those verses of Matthew's gospel differently.

I respect your biblical knowledge and perspective and agree with much of what you are saying, but not all.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7

So you are of the crowd that believes in predestination? That everything that happens has already been determined by God? If so, then faith is worthless. If you truly believe, you can't help not be repentant.

As far as driving unbelievers away: I teach firearm safety. In MN they estimate that 10% of the population are hunters. 10% are anti-hunting. The other 80% are neutral.
If hunters were to dump carcasses in a ditch, or leave garbage in a Wildlife Management Area, or have some deer tied to their car in public view, and one of the 80% were to see these things, how do you think they would feel about hunters and hunting? It's the same when all this petty arguing takes place regarding salvation.

Mathew 7:13-14
Posted By: bandy

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:40 PM

Did I say something wrong.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:40 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Trapper7

So you are of the crowd that believes in predestination? That everything that happens has already been determined by God? If so, then faith is worthless. If you truly believe, you can't help not be repentant.

As far as driving unbelievers away: I teach firearm safety. In MN they estimate that 10% of the population are hunters. 10% are anti-hunting. The other 80% are neutral.
If hunters were to dump carcasses in a ditch, or leave garbage in a Wildlife Management Area, or have some deer tied to their car in public view, and one of the 80% were to see these things, how do you think they would feel about hunters and hunting? It's the same when all this petty arguing takes place regarding salvation.

Mathew 7:13-14

Not understanding your point here. These verses have nothing to do with predestination, just the opposite. It clearly indicates we have a choice the easy way or the more difficult way. We aren't pre-chosen. If these verses are supposed to be regarding predestination.

You must be a Lutheran. They are the only church I'm aware of that believes in predestination and not all synods do I understand. If there are other churches that do I'm not familiar with them.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:03 PM

My point is, the number of those who would become saints was determined before the foundation of the world. God's elect. I'm a Baptist but could probably pass for a conservative Presbyterian.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:07 PM

Can you be born again and not know it? Can you be made a new creature in Christ and not know it? Can you be passed from death unto life and not know it? Can old things pass away and all things made new without you knowing it?
Posted By: rex123

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:12 PM

Take the time to read all these post and you can hopefully understand why so many people turn away from the church. I mean you people are so interested in proving your right in what You think and that those who don't agree with you are going straight to the BAD PLACE [tried to clean it up a little] that nothing else matters. It is just a shame you have to attack one another . But the bad guys happy you all are just making his job easier. And I realize what I just posted will make no difference to anyone. Okay feel better now carry on. lol
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:21 PM

It matters, shows you are just as self righteous as everyone else.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:31 PM

Excuses by the Kingsmen is a good old song, but can't seem to find one on utube.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 08:45 PM

Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Boco
You're all a bunch of heathens.

There's heathens and redeemed heathens.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:03 PM

What in the world are you guys arguing about?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by waggler
What in the world are you guys arguing about?

Esoteric and debatable things.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:27 PM

Thanks Hobbie for putting the song up!
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:35 PM

Trapper 7. I appreciate you response, but I don't you we are on the same page... Yet. The scriptures from 1 Corinthians are teaching us that even the least among us in a church that has allowed adultery to go unchecked is still better at judging a righteous judgment than the unsaved.

So all saved believers even you, can make a righteous judgment. You open the Bible and read the judgment written. It's that simple.

Next repentance is never used in conjunction with turning from sin. It is always being used to tell you to repent from unbelief to believing properly. Because faith is the only way anyone has ever been saved.

Matthew 21:32 KJV
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mark 1:15 KJV
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 19:4 KJV
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

If you are trusting in turning from sin for salvation then that is not biblical repentance. This is adding works to the gospel.

Don't forget that the book of John is the only gospel that claims it was written that you might be saved, and the word repent isn't found it in one time. Imagine being told this is written so you could be saved, reading those scriptures and never finding the doctrine of repent, but seeing over and over the clear teachings of believing for eternal life.

John 20:31 KJV
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Do a word search on the term repent, believe, eternal, and everlasting in the book of John and let me know how it looks to you.

The commanded repentance is never about your sin in reference to salvation, but is always about your faith and what you believed before turning to Christ.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:37 PM

I mean even Abraham was saved by faith. Not repenting of sin, and of no amount of works.

Romans 4:1-5 KJV
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 10:46 PM

You went off the rails when you suggested a sinner can be saved without repentance.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by rick brocious
Originally Posted by Mark June
Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark

I take it the stay at home thesis promoters is a jab at Ken .


It is not.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
You went off the rails when you suggested a sinner can be saved without repentance.


Keep your hands upon the throttle
And your eye upon the rail!

Right on Posco!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/10/23 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by waggler
What in the world are you guys arguing about?


The Apostle Paul knew a thing or two about how to plant and operate a Godly church and his letters to Timothy, the young preacher in Ephesus, the 2nd largest city in the Roman Empire at that time are timeless and help us a great deal when we gather together as the Body of Christ and discuss things of God.

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction.


Nowhere in the NT, and Paul authored half of it, does Paul exhort or instruct anyone to call other believers names, shout them down, mock them if they don't think like you, or tell them they're going straight to h_l_ in an attempt to minister, shepherd, preach or teach.

I'm Paulian as can be, because he was called by our Lord to bring the Gospel to Gentiles... like me.
Jesus spoking about the fruit of his followers being evident was written down for us 38 times by the Gospel writers and Paul explained it also in his letter to the Church in Galatia;
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

This is how we're to address one another. Who said so? Jesus.
With great patience and instruction, loving each other because God first loved us.
I hope we can camp here more often.

Blessings,
Mark


Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:01 AM

Wonder what Solomon would say about cutting faith and repentance in half. Possibly he would say neither would survive for long.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by Posco
You went off the rails when you suggested a sinner can be saved without repentance.


Keep your hands upon the throttle
And your eye upon the rail!

Right on Posco!

I'm doing okay? Good to know.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Wonder what Solomon would say about cutting faith and repentance in half. Possibly he would say neither would survive for long.

Or John the Baptist.
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:08 AM

I tend to follow Yotetrappers take on it. But really, why does it even matter......pre, mid, or post trib?

From what I understand, we are to dwell on God's word and pray for the Holy Spirit to give us direction and understanding of that Word. I don't think anyone posting on this thread is less faithful than the next. I know for me personally, as I have read the Bible and continue to learn throughout my life, my thoughts have changed over that time. There is no doubt in my mind that the Word of God is Devine and the Spirit leads us to the next step in our walk. Some, like me are just toddlers, yet others are runners. In my walk, the Holy Spirit led me to an interpretation of the Bible that suited my being and thoughts at that time, then as I continued to learn, grow, and expound on what I learned sometimes it made me take a closer look and re-think. Regardless, I know I am moving forward.

I think the Holy Spirit deals with all of us differently depending on where we are in that walk; as well as, our past experiences and life that clearly give us individual bias. What makes sense to me, may not make sense to Posco, or Mark, or Ken, or JStaton, or Yes Sir, or Foxpaw, or any other Child of God. But does it really matter? We all agree that Jesus Christ is the Silver Bullet. But how we get to and grow with Jesus Christ may be different. I see it as raising kids, which we all are in God's eyes. He is the parent and knows best for us, and I think what may be the best direction for some may be different than others. Just like our own children. Just my thoughts. I am not a theologian.
Posted By: AntiGov

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:24 AM

I'm with yotetrapper but only the good Lord knows for sure
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Chancey
I tend to follow Yotetrappers take on it. But really, why does it even matter......pre, mid, or post trib?

I'm inclined to agree. I could land in pre or mid trib based on my understanding of the subject but haven't gelled on it. I hope God would give me the grace to die well no matter the circumstance.
Posted By: AntiGov

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:25 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 12:27 AM

Thats my take on it too Posco. That is His promise, and He does not lie.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 02:42 AM

Apparently y'all weren't following along at all if you got lost at repentance is not necessary for salvation.

Biblical repentance is necessary. There is not one verse in the Bible that says the phrases "repent of sin" your preachers and teachers were taught this horse feathers from Scofield and the like. I'd love for someone to share the "repent of sin" verse I haven't read. I already shared the only verse in the Bible that discusses the topic and God called it their "works" to "turn from their evil way"

It's like the people that are knocking biblical doctrine in this post are completely bilnd and cannot read.

Here is the verse again. Don't get lost. Let me know if I need to slow down for you..

Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

In the verse it defines repent as to turn, say who can tell if God will turn and repent. Then it called turning from your evil way which another way of saying repent of sins , works. Read the scripture don't believe me

God saw their WORKS, that they turned from evil way, and "he did it not" meaning he repented from destroying them

If repenting of sin is a work and the Holy Spirit defines it in Jonah 3 then no one has to turn from their evil way to be saved because salvation is a gift of God, not of works lest any man(all of you) should boast.

And if repent simply means to turn from sin then God turning and repenting means he was a sinner that turned from sin? NO

Sorry guys this is another doctrine that nearly all church going Christians don't understand.... I wonder why?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 02:54 AM

Oops.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Oops.

He's digging a deeper hole and you picked up it. Good for you.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 02:57 AM

Oh My !
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Oops.

He's digging a deeper hole and you picked up it. Good for you.


The amount of effort he has put in it he should be close to digging out the other side already, lol!
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:02 AM

Lol
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:02 AM

I got a cat to put up, check back in later
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:14 AM

Luke and Mathew…..

When Jesus instructs us how to pray, what do you think it means when we ask forgiveness of our sins/debts?
That’s the most basic understanding of repentance I can think of.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Chancey
Luke and Mathew…..

When Jesus instructs us how to pray, what do you think it means when we ask forgiveness of our sins/debts?
That’s the most basic understanding of repentance I can think of.


Our ask is tied to our action in that prayer.
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:24 AM

Is that any different from repenting Hobbie?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:25 AM

Luke 13:3 You can take it on Ken's authority or you can look to Jesus.
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:27 AM

Maybe there is not a specific Bible verse, but I was always taught and still believe from my reading that when I screw up, I need to pray to God and ask for forgiveness (repent), and then STOP committing that sin.
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:29 AM

Thanks Posco, I was typing when you posted.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:30 AM

I do not believe repenting is the equivalent to asking forgiveness because they can be accomplished individually.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Chancey
Thanks Posco, I was typing when you posted.

You bet. Repentance always precedes faith/belief in the NT. If anyone can find a verse with the order reversed, please point it out.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:51 AM

If I ask forgiveness with no intention of not doing it again then I was not sorrowful nor remorseful for doing it in the first place. .

If I separate repentance from faith and don't believe He forgives me nor that he has the power to, then I have swept the evil spirit out by repenting and would now have a clean empty house and the evil spirit would return finding my house (heart) empty and would invite his friends over and I would be worse off than at the beginning.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:56 AM

When the disciples first followed Jesus because He asked them to and they proclaimed “they had found the Messiah,” was it faith that led them to believe that or had they relented before meeting Jesus?

While there is not exact wording of faith before repentance, there is clearly implication that they had faith He was who they thought He was. Perhaps their repentance wasn’t important enough to be note worthy.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:13 AM

Where was Judas's faith. He was walking by sight and faith. He saw Jesus heal his father Simon the leper , yet did he repent of what he was about to do for 30 pieces of silver. No or he would not have done it, you can't repent of future sin and still do it ?
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:30 AM

Your conversation makes me think af Acts 19: 1-7 Paul finds certain disciples , he ask them if they have received the Holy Ghost since ye believed. They new of no Holy Ghost. Paul asked unto what have you been baptized . And they said unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should came after him, that is on Christ Jesus. Then they were baptized in the name of the lord Jesus . Paul lays his hands on them and the Holy Ghost comes upon them.
I'm paraphrasing.
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:42 AM

So was belief what was important or is repentance necessary? In John 3:5 Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee. Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
So does John's water baptism represent repentance ? And does faith or belief represent the spirit?
Born of water and spirit.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by rick brocious
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is MY EXCUSE why I don't go to church tired
Fixed it for you .

Cute
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by rex123
Take the time to read all these post and you can hopefully understand why so many people turn away from the church. I mean you people are so interested in proving your right in what You think and that those who don't agree with you are going straight to the BAD PLACE [tried to clean it up a little] that nothing else matters. It is just a shame you have to attack one another . But the bad guys happy you all are just making his job easier. And I realize what I just posted will make no difference to anyone. Okay feel better now carry on. lol

Yep... And no in gets this .... The same people who feel if you don't feel something from something they did something must not be right about you. I've actually asked alot of pagens I'm friends with why they went away from Christianity and well....
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by AntiGov
[Linked Image]

Reminds me of the quote. " If you need God and the threat of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) to be a good person then your just a bad person in a leash"
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by AntiGov
[Linked Image]

Reminds me of the quote. " If you need God and the threat of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) to be a good person then your just a bad person in a leash"

Those memes might be cute but they're created and appreciated by people who have no understanding of the plague of their own hearts.
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 07:07 AM

The study of logic, and the study of religion are based upon two totally different premises. From where i stand they are not compatible with each other.
Posted By: Woodsloafer72

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 07:33 AM

I'm enjoying reading this discussion. Thank you all for your contributions.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Giant Sage
So was belief what was important or is repentance necessary? In John 3:5 Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee. Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
So does John's water baptism represent repentance ? And does faith or belief represent the spirit?
Born of water and spirit.


If this was directed to me, then I'm sorry I dozed off.
Seems to me John's baptism was a type of forgiveness of sins which sufficed until something better came. Water is a symbolic washing to signal cleanness whether submerged as a bath or sprinkled as splashing. None of which was more than pointing forward much like the shedding of animals blood was. God gave a sign of the animal skins in the garden that He wouldn't leave the human race without a way of redemption. The shedding of animals blood was looking forward unto the day when Jesus would give His blood for man. When Adam was made from clay he was in a perfect state and had no sin until that fatal sin in the garden. God is not bound by His laws but does honor them in instances. Its justice when a wrong is done and the judgement would be a price or trade of equal value. There is also silver sockets used for the bases in the Tabernacle that points to redemption. So since Adam was in a sinless state at the beginning before he sinned and God killed him it took a sacrifice of equal value. Adam was sinless before the fall and thus the Second Adam was sinless also. Thus no remission of sins without the shedding of blood was fulfilled. Again the institution of animal sacrifice will be put into place during the millennium. There will be children being born at that time and again it is a looking forward to a already paid redemption.

As to the Baptism we have in church today it is an outward show, showing the world there is an inward change of the believer. It has no saving quality and if you dunk an unsaved person, they go down a dry sinner and come up a wet one.

As to the born of water and Spirit. The water could represent the water in the womb, it could refer to the washing again as in baptism and Spirit of God does the miracle, not of reforming but of regeneration and/or a spiritual rebirth. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons. Some now days are teaching the Son is a created Angel and the Holy Spirit is an agent to do God's bidding, errands, etc. I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we are truly born again, how else would we know we was born again. I believe our conscience is the agent which can operate free of our control. One might say it is the deputy to our soul. We can override it again and again and finally become a reprobate but our conscience can lock or freeze up, some might say slain in the Spirit. No condition can deem us with no hope except unbelief. That is belief in Jesus. Yes when Jesus was here on earth he did miracles that would be a reason for faith, but after His death, His resurrection was of ultimate faith quality. We have a risen Savior,

I am sure this is incomplete and if there is any other comments please do so. If I see the need to pickup I will do so too.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Where was Judas's faith. He was walking by sight and faith. He saw Jesus heal his father Simon the leper , yet did he repent of what he was about to do for 30 pieces of silver. No or he would not have done it, you can't repent of future sin and still do it ?


Are you saying he didn’t believe or have faith Jesus was who He said He was?

I believe Jesus commented more than once about their “little” faith but I can’t find where He commented about their “No” faith or absence of faith.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by rex123
Take the time to read all these post and you can hopefully understand why so many people turn away from the church. I mean you people are so interested in proving your right in what You think and that those who don't agree with you are going straight to the BAD PLACE [tried to clean it up a little] that nothing else matters. It is just a shame you have to attack one another . But the bad guys happy you all are just making his job easier. And I realize what I just posted will make no difference to anyone. Okay feel better now carry on. lol

Yep... And no in gets this .... The same people who feel if you don't feel something from something they did something must not be right about you. I've actually asked alot of pagens I'm friends with why they went away from Christianity and well....

The answer they gave you and the real truth of the matter are likely two different things. If they truly believed they would be compelled to turn from the worldly things they so cherish. The idea likely scares them.
Posted By: Feedinggrounds

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by rex123
Take the time to read all these post and you can hopefully understand why so many people turn away from the church. I mean you people are so interested in proving your right in what You think and that those who don't agree with you are going straight to the BAD PLACE [tried to clean it up a little] that nothing else matters. It is just a shame you have to attack one another . But the bad guys happy you all are just making his job easier. And I realize what I just posted will make no difference to anyone. Okay feel better now carry on. lol

Yep... And no in gets this .... The same people who feel if you don't feel something from something they did something must not be right about you. I've actually asked alot of pagens I'm friends with why they went away from Christianity and well....

I'm much older than you, I have friendships that are older than you twice. I only know the religion of the ones sitting in the same church as myself. I have no furry friends, Trans friends, that I know of....Just not something my circle talks about. More often talking of trucks, trees, fish bites, traps, hunting of all sorts, helping sick or troubled friends, community projects or weather. Maybe I have Pagan friends, Gay, or Trans friends but I guess if I don't know by now I never will....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 11:31 AM

How wonderful! These last few posts by HT, Giant Sage, Chauncey, Posco and Foxpaw are fruitful evidence of how theology (discussion of God) is done.

I hear as a pastor from people who want to talk to someone about the God they love and cherish, yet they say, "My _____ doesn't really want to talk about God." When I ask why, they answer, "Because they always end up fighting." I remind them that's simply called pride and sometimes even anger, or envy, or any host of sinful attributes we have because we have an Adamic nature in us.

All of us talk about the things in our lives that we love. And what we relish talking about and how we go about doing it says a lot about the path we're on.

Every follower of Christ knows in their heart of hearts that they are not who they once were. And in that realization, Jesus told people to "sin no more."
Help us Holy Spirit to move in that direction because the enemy, the world and our flesh, prefer mockery, name calling, disparagement and ridicule as their means to an end.

Great discussion y'all!

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by T-Rex
The study of logic, and the study of religion are based upon two totally different premises. From where i stand they are not compatible with each other.


By religion, are you referring to God because "religion" can refer to anything people place their faith in?
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Where was Judas's faith. He was walking by sight and faith. He saw Jesus heal his father Simon the leper , yet did he repent of what he was about to do for 30 pieces of silver. No or he would not have done it, you can't repent of future sin and still do it ?


Are you saying he didn’t believe or have faith Jesus was who He said He was?

I believe Jesus commented more than once about their “little” faith but I can’t find where He commented about their “No” faith or absence of faith.


Judas knew Jesus healed his dad, but maybe it was more by sight than faith. For some reason he found himself in a state that he couldn't change his mind. Some would say he was just made that way. For what ever reason he was locked out. Pharaoh saw God's power and he admitted he had sinned. But he had held on to the idea that he, himself was 100% right and god of his world and influenced by his Nile god and had become prideful in it and could not let go. Again my tulip friends would say he was made that way from the beginning. Esau found no place for repentance.

For myself I look at it like this. If I find dry rot in my floor, do I just cover it over with more paint or do I tear it out before it consumes the whole house. When I finally have to fix it how many peelings of paint do I have to tear off before I again can see something solid. Layers of an onion depends on where and how its grown and the variety. Most problems are best dealt with when they are small. I do best weeding my own garden, if I get over on my wife's side, I don't know the difference between weeds and some of her flowers.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
My point is, the number of those who would become saints was determined before the foundation of the world. God's elect. I'm a Baptist but could probably pass for a conservative Presbyterian.

I went to a Baptist church for quite a few years. I've been to quite a few different denominations. Of all of them, I agree mostly with what Baptist's believe. I feel their interpretation of the bible is the most accurate. The one I went to firmly would disavow predestination. But, I understand what you are saying isn't predestination and I wouldn't disagree with what you've said about a certain number. That means we have a choice to where we'll be spending eternity.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw


Judas knew Jesus healed his dad, but maybe it was more by sight than faith. For some reason he found himself in a state that he couldn't change his mind. Some would say he was just made that way. For what ever reason he was locked out. Pharaoh saw God's power and he admitted he had sinned. But he had held on to the idea that he, himself was 100% right and god of his world and influenced by his Nile god and had become prideful in it and could not let go. Again my tulip friends would say he was made that way from the beginning. Esau found no place for repentance.

For myself I look at it like this. If I find dry rot in my floor, do I just cover it over with more paint or do I tear it out before it consumes the whole house. When I finally have to fix it how many peelings of paint do I have to tear off before I again can see something solid. Layers of an onion depends on where and how its grown and the variety. Most problems are best dealt with when they are small. I do best weeding my own garden, if I get over on my wife's side, I don't know the difference between weeds and some of her flowers.


First, I think we are on the same page, just maybe different places on it. lol

We will sin until the day we leave the flesh. Even a man that declares he is without sin has sinned by doing so.

Posted By: KsTrapper88

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 03:23 PM

We do have a choice, and apart from Gods grace that choice will always be wrong.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by KsTrapper88
We do have a choice, and apart from Gods grace that choice will always be wrong.

Can't argue with you on that. Thank goodness we have a gracious God.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
Originally Posted by Posco
My point is, the number of those who would become saints was determined before the foundation of the world. God's elect. I'm a Baptist but could probably pass for a conservative Presbyterian.

I went to a Baptist church for quite a few years. I've been to quite a few different denominations. Of all of them, I agree mostly with what Baptist's believe. I feel their interpretation of the bible is the most accurate. The one I went to firmly would disavow predestination. But, I understand what you are saying isn't predestination and I wouldn't disagree with what you've said about a certain number. That means we have a choice to where we'll be spending eternity.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:02 PM

Hobbie, I hear that a lot about everyone sins on here. Don't you think there is degrees from wilful sin to infirmities. There is even sin in the church and Jesus died for that too.

If someone says they have no sin they are usually speaking of wilful sins of commission. When we bring up the sins of omission that's a whole new field.
If I know to do something (within my means) and choose not to then wouldn't that be wilful sin?

When we make choices there is a cost, don't think its a free ride. When we take a stand it involves finances, family, time, and even dealing with things we just don't like.
But on the other hand we have to count the cost should our soul be lost.

One last input and I'm out of here.
3 fishermen went on a fishing trip and bad weather had them locked in a small cabin for 3 days. After 3 days they began to fight. The moral is: when fishermen don't fish, they fight!
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Hobbie, I hear that a lot about everyone sins on here. Don't you think there is degrees from wilful sin to infirmities. There is even sin in the church and Jesus died for that too.

If someone says they have no sin they are usually speaking of wilful sins of commission. When we bring up the sins of omission that's a whole new field.
If I know to do something (within my means) and choose not to then wouldn't that be wilful sin? I’m looking for where I said it wasn’t?

When we make choices there is a cost, don't think its a free ride. When we take a stand it involves finances, family, time, and even dealing with things we just don't like.
But on the other hand we have to count the cost should our soul be lost.

One last input and I'm out of here.
3 fishermen went on a fishing trip and bad weather had them locked in a small cabin for 3 days. After 3 days they began to fight. The moral is: when fishermen don't fish, they fight!



And now I’m trying to figure out how we got here from repentance and faith being individual things. lol
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by T-Rex
The study of logic, and the study of religion are based upon two totally different premises. From where i stand they are not compatible with each other.


By religion, are you referring to God because "religion" can refer to anything people place their faith in?

I am referring to religion as a whole. As you say, its premise is faith, and includes God.
Posted By: jht

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/11/23 05:21 PM

I'm kinda glad that I've stayed out of this one. Too often talking about the "End Times" is more divisive even than talking about politics. It's a shame really, because there is some really fascinating and profound stuff within the prophetic literature in the Bible. Our (primarily modern American) obsession with the Revelation being merely a secret code about a future event, distracts us from what it can tell us about how we live in the world today, which is, I think, what the Bible wants us to consider (and change). Wisdom from the past and hope for the future that gives us purpose and direction for today. Jesus said that the purpose of life is to love God and love your neighbor. Too often we follow our traditions more than we follow Jesus; we love our doctrines more than we love God and our interpretations more than our neighbor. That's an indictment of myself as much as it is of anyone else. I can't pretend to be ignorant or innocent. All that to say:
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is why I don't go to church tired

I hear you Wolfie. You're not alone in that, and I'm sorry. I wish we didn't live in different parts of the country, because I think we could have some really enjoyable conversations about this stuff.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:40 AM

I think the discussion is profitable. I enjoy nothing more than talking about in the bible. Nothing gets me more excited.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:41 AM

Kinda jacking the thread, even more than I already have but...


Kitty number 14 here, the 8th I've harvested
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by T-Rex

I am referring to religion as a whole. As you say, its premise is faith, and includes God.


Epistemology, the theory of knowledge and where truth "truly" comes from.... is given to us in Scripture.
Proverbs has two bookends that reveal to us that knowledge and religion emanate from the very same place: God.

Those bookends are;
Proverbs 1:7: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 9:10: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Praise God for His Revelation for us!

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:08 AM

I disagree.

I believe Dr Fauci is the definition of science, and to be worshipped.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
I think the discussion is profitable. I enjoy nothing more than talking about in the bible. Nothing gets me more excited.

Same here.
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:13 AM

I am debating bringing my good friend Jan Markell into this conversation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by T-Rex
I disagree.

I believe Dr Fauci is the definition of science, and to be worshipped.


I thought you were being serious in your previous post.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by jht
I hear you Wolfie. You're not alone in that, and I'm sorry.

Why? Wolfie claims to be a believer and one would think he knows what believes. I've never found the perfect church and don't expect to but I have congregations with like-minded believers. None of the churches I've attended over the last thirty years experienced contentious doctrinal debates. I'm often the odd man out with emphasis on doctrines of grace but it never got me booted from a church and I've never felt the need to leave one.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by T-Rex
I am debating bringing my good friend Jan Markell into this conversation.


wink
She always has guests on her blog that are credible and insightful and I especially enjoy the shows about Replacement Theology's pitfalls.
I read one a while back, and I remember the pastor commenting that people quite often give context to dispensational theology in much the same way they define capitalism.... with a very.broad.inaccurate.context brush.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:33 AM

T-Rex,

You asked about logic and religion. Here is Jordan Petersons take on Logos as he spoke a few weeks back at Ephesus. Enjoy, I promise it is worth your time.

Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:46 AM

Pretty deep in here
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 05:02 AM

I don't think Rex has been serious the whole time, funny some tho
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 09:32 AM

Chancey, for those of us who continue to thirst for learning, it is our lament is that our culture is running quickly away from academic learning in its purest sense. The philosophy of the Greeks Dr. Peterson speaks about, known as an underpinning (in addition to Judea-Christianity) of the Western (USA included) epistemology, and even theology, is being rapidly replaced by our culture's thirst for media sound bites, Google truth, Youtube truth, and a prideful, gleeful mockery of "higher learning."

I'm of the camp that this running away from a sincere quest for learning is also tethered to a conscious, concerted effort by those who collaborate to control people groups. There are strong thesis's related to the fact that when people as a culture rely not on their own ability to learn and think critically, but rather turn their focus to the leaders of government to fix, save, heal, or rescue them, these same people are more easily controlled by the politico that governs them. It's called power and it resonates in the hearts of those who seek it for illicit purpose.

We most certainly have institutions of "higher learning" but the style of learning that was been taught historically for millennia (Aquinas in the 1200's wrote of the Greeks two thousand years before him) has changed quite remarkably since the 1960's especially, replacing debate with questions and the pursuit of answers, with more simplistic memorization of whatever the academic testing system tests on.

It's all quite fascinating and for those of us who enjoy history, the pursuit of pure higher learning related to thesis, debate, dialog, argument (not how culture now defines it), and a thirst for true knowledge (epistemology) it's not as easy these days to grab a cold drink, pull up a chair, and chat about anything at a deeper level. Swords too quickly come out and iPhones start showing up with Google truths pulled up and.....

But the beginning of knowledge begins with a fear of our Lord, which doesn't exactly mean fear as in "tremble," but rather an obedience to and awe of the One whose got all the right answers.
Our prayer is that God's Face still shines upon our nation and its people and helps return us to a thirst for that which is worthy and honoring to God.

I enjoy your posts always!
Blessings!
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Chancey, for those of us who continue to thirst for learning, it is our lament is that our culture is running quickly away from academic learning in its purest sense. The philosophy of the Greeks Dr. Peterson speaks about, known as an underpinning (in addition to Judea-Christianity) of the Western (USA included) epistemology, and even theology, is being rapidly replaced by our culture's thirst for media sound bites, Google truth, Youtube truth, and a prideful, gleeful mockery of "higher learning."

I'm of the camp that this running away from a sincere quest for learning is also tethered to a conscious, concerted effort by those who collaborate to control people groups. There are strong thesis's related to the fact that when people as a culture rely not on their own ability to learn and think critically, but rather turn their focus to the leaders of government to fix, save, heal, or rescue them, these same people are more easily controlled by the politico that governs them. It's called power and it resonates in the hearts of those who seek it for illicit purpose.

We most certainly have institutions of "higher learning" but the style of learning that was been taught historically for millennia (Aquinas in the 1200's wrote of the Greeks two thousand years before him) has changed quite remarkably since the 1960's especially, replacing debate with questions and the pursuit of answers, with more simplistic memorization of whatever the academic testing system tests on.

It's all quite fascinating and for those of us who enjoy history, the pursuit of pure higher learning related to thesis, debate, dialog, argument (not how culture now defines it), and a thirst for true knowledge (epistemology) it's not as easy these days to grab a cold drink, pull up a chair, and chat about anything at a deeper level. Swords too quickly come out and iPhones start showing up with Google truths pulled up and.....


But the beginning of knowledge begins with a fear of our Lord, which doesn't exactly mean fear as in "tremble," but rather an obedience to and awe of the One whose got all the right answers.
Our prayer is that God's Face still shines upon our nation and its people and helps return us to a thirst for that which is worthy and honoring to God.

I enjoy your posts always!
Blessings!
Mark


Yes it's interesting that you say this about modern education, and you are 100% correct. This is exactly what the system has done to religious learning starting in the 1800's

See they could have never degraded society without first attacking the foundation that held it together. Faith. So they destroyed the ability for man to learn the Bible through simple Bible reading by changing what man believed they needed to do to be saved first, by adding works(i.e. repent "of your sins") rather than teaching biblical repentance, they then filled the learning institutions with lies and bad doctrine so everyone who taught at the local level didn't have the right spirit. And now we see this same result playing out in society as it has in religious institutions for nearly 100 years.

I for one am glad George Washington had the right faith, and spent so much time daily on his knees or we wouldn't even be here to discuss it.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:02 PM

Ken, after some research on dispensationalism, I align with your thinking on it. One thing I haven't figured out is, why? Why did it even come about, what do dispensationalist have to gain from it? Is it like another sect of religion ie Baptist, Methodist etc.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Can you be born again and not know it? Can you be made a new creature in Christ and not know it? Can you be passed from death unto life and not know it? Can old things pass away and all things made new without you knowing it?

Anyone?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Posco
Can you be born again and not know it? Can you be made a new creature in Christ and not know it? Can you be passed from death unto life and not know it? Can old things pass away and all things made new without you knowing it?

Anyone?


If I understand, you’re kind of asking can you accept Jesus as your savior and not experience that repentant moment, the answer is yes.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
If I understand, you’re kind of asking can you accept Jesus as your savior and not experience that repentant moment, the answer is yes.

That would be wrong.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
If I understand, you’re kind of asking can you accept Jesus as your savior and not experience that repentant moment, the answer is yes.

That would be wrong.


lol Okay, whatever you say.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Ken, after some research on dispensationalism, I align with your thinking on it. One thing I haven't figured out is, why? Why did it even come about, what do dispensationalist have to gain from it? Is it like another sect of religion ie Baptist, Methodist etc.



Catch 22, the reason was much of my most recent post just above this. The goal was to destroy America. America is founded on Christian values, George Washington faught a loosing battle against and empire and won with God as his shield and Christ as his banner. He changed the world along with many other brave men including the man that brought my mother's bloodline to America. He did it by praying for hours a day and asking for direction, wisdom, guidance, strength, and most of all perseverance. It was perseverance that won the revolution not the fact that Washington won every battle cuz he did not. He gained this perseverance wisdom and strength through prayer.

That foundation turned this nation in the greatest nation on earth. The people (WEF) who today choose to tell you you can't drive gasoline vehicles, eat red meat, and have heat in your house are what we call the world government. Something we were warned about in Revelation chapter 13. This one world government has to take over the planet in order for the Antichrist to come about. The Antichrist has to come about in order for the tribulation to start. And the tribulation has to pass before Christ comes in the clouds. It's only the Free Will of men, that choose to stand with God, and take action prayerfully that can push this off for as long as we choose. So in order to keep men from exercising their free will to stop a One world government, they had to subvert the institution of church and religion. So they did this by destroying the gospel first. Then they chose to infiltrate the churches through the preachers by making it a standard for preachers to go to a school or seminary to run a church. There they teach them the horrible doctrine of dispensationalism that is designed to literally destroy a man's capability to understand the Bible. As you see it works very well.

So you can divide people by nationality, by tradition, by race and color even, but you couldn't divide Christians from Christians when they had faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. So in order to destroy the fabric that holds society together you had to destroy their faith. And now in modern times we're moving into the same times they were at in the Old testament when people would willingly sacrifice their children to Molech. Society is breaking down. This is the goal of destroying faith first, then clear doctrine. The destruction of faith and clear doctrine causes men settle on their lees, and stop doing judgment. Once the judgment of God is out of the way because men no longer exercise it the propaganda is able to be used against their children. Then you raised their children up to destroy what they've worked so hard to build.

So the ultimate goal is the destruction of faith, and america, so there's no shining light in the world. Then the only option is world government. As long as America stands the world government will not be able to take total control. That's because we are a nation built on Christian values.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 02:41 PM

I just want to say catch 22, that I appreciate you going and researching this on your own. That's the goal of contending with bad doctrine publicly, that the hearers go search the scriptures to see whether these things be true. If there's anything I'm good at in this world it's confrontation. That's not necessarily a good thing but it can be used for good under the right circumstances.

I know dispensationalism is a false doctrine, and now so do all of you. If not for researching it for yourselves, at least because every proponent of dispensationalism in this thread produce no biblical scripture in its defense. I knew there would be none because I know there is no scripture to support any of it. But that won't stop people from wresting the scripture to make it so.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:10 PM

Posco, Aren't you just a little old fashioned? If you want your church to grow you need to loosen up. You'll need a ping pong table and a pool table and snacks in the basement. You need to get rid of that old boring music that is just too sad and convicting. You need new fast, loud music with 3 word songs. Just in case someone was to come in that seems to not enjoy the service and maybe even have tears of remorse running down their face, then you need to appoint some specific counselors to take those people aside to a little room and give them a good dose of some feel good religion. You must separate those from the rest or you may lose the feel good crowd. Tell them there is nothing wrong with them, and show them how well you are and that you are both humans. Convince them you are O.K. and they are O.K. too. Now after you get them under control and thinking positive things reenter them back into the group. At which time you tell them to wait until near the end of the service and someone will ask if any one would like to join the church at which time you should raise your hand and they will take you by the hand to the front and say now repeat after me. That's all there is to it, you are now in, have fun. Yes, you will now be reformed a little, but better at your old self a whole lot!

That is how you keep your group growing. We all know when things are doing good they grow don't they? But doesn't cancer grow? Now there you go thinking negative again.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
If I understand, you’re kind of asking can you accept Jesus as your savior and not experience that repentant moment, the answer is yes.

That would be wrong.

Really? What about the criminal on the cross who said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom". When did he repent?

Then Jesus said, "This day you shall be with me in paradise".
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
If I understand, you’re kind of asking can you accept Jesus as your savior and not experience that repentant moment, the answer is yes.

That would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Trapper7
Really? What about the criminal on the cross who said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom". When did he repent?

Then Jesus said, "This day you shall be with me in paradise".


Let it go T7.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:31 PM

Got it, HT. Thanks.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:40 PM

Well I just skimmed through this. I still don't know. Do I need to fear a white skinned jewish man or a brown skinned Arab? How about a brown skinned jew? I wish one of you scholars would just lay it out.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Well I just skimmed through this. I still don't know. Do I need to fear a white skinned jewish man or a brown skinned Arab? How about a brown skinned jew? I wish one of you scholars would just lay it out.


Morning Danny, I’m not a scholar but my answer to your question is “look inside your heart and fear what you do not see.”
Posted By: jht

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Well I just skimmed through this. I still don't know. Do I need to fear a white skinned jewish man or a brown skinned Arab? How about a brown skinned jew? I wish one of you scholars would just lay it out.

I'll take the bait! I think the idea is that Jesus's followers don't need to fear anyone. The world is full of beasts and antichrists. It's a bloody, violent, disastrous mess. Fear of the beasts that rule the world typically leads participation with with those beasts. For Christians, the promise that God will deal with the beasts Himself means we need not fear. We need not join the beast. We need not become beasts ourselves in the name of fighting other beasts. God will take care of it in the end, and He will take care of us after the end, in the Resurrection. In the meantime, instead of participating in beastly kingdoms, we get to participate in building the Kingdom of Heaven -here and now, on the earth. There's a lot more to unpack, but unpacking it all will take a lifetime, maybe longer, but that's the idea anyway.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by jht
I'm kinda glad that I've stayed out of this one. Too often talking about the "End Times" is more divisive even than talking about politics. It's a shame really, because there is some really fascinating and profound stuff within the prophetic literature in the Bible. Our (primarily modern American) obsession with the Revelation being merely a secret code about a future event, distracts us from what it can tell us about how we live in the world today, which is, I think, what the Bible wants us to consider (and change). Wisdom from the past and hope for the future that gives us purpose and direction for today. Jesus said that the purpose of life is to love God and love your neighbor. Too often we follow our traditions more than we follow Jesus; we love our doctrines more than we love God and our interpretations more than our neighbor. That's an indictment of myself as much as it is of anyone else. I can't pretend to be ignorant or innocent. All that to say:
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
This is why I don't go to church tired

I hear you Wolfie. You're not alone in that, and I'm sorry. I wish we didn't live in different parts of the country, because I think we could have some really enjoyable conversations about this stuff.


I'd enjoy that honestly smile
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Well I just skimmed through this. I still don't know. Do I need to fear a white skinned jewish man or a brown skinned Arab? How about a brown skinned jew? I wish one of you scholars would just lay it out.

I'm not a scholar
But. Second Timothy ch: 1 vs 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of sound mind.
Roman's 12: 18 if it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Posco, Aren't you just a little old fashioned? If you want your church to grow you need to loosen up. You'll need a ping pong table and a pool table and snacks in the basement. You need to get rid of that old boring music that is just too sad and convicting. You need new fast, loud music with 3 word songs. Just in case someone was to come in that seems to not enjoy the service and maybe even have tears of remorse running down their face, then you need to appoint some specific counselors to take those people aside to a little room and give them a good dose of some feel good religion. You must separate those from the rest or you may lose the feel good crowd. Tell them there is nothing wrong with them, and show them how well you are and that you are both humans. Convince them you are O.K. and they are O.K. too. Now after you get them under control and thinking positive things reenter them back into the group. At which time you tell them to wait until near the end of the service and someone will ask if any one would like to join the church at which time you should raise your hand and they will take you by the hand to the front and say now repeat after me. That's all there is to it, you are now in, have fun. Yes, you will now be reformed a little, but better at your old self a whole lot!

That is how you keep your group growing. We all know when things are doing good they grow don't they? But doesn't cancer grow? Now there you go thinking negative again.

Remember when the people went from crying "Hosanna!" to "Crucify Him!"? Same people just a few days apart. God isn't interested in a crowd, He knows what a crowd can do.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
I just want to say catch 22, that I appreciate you going and researching this on your own. That's the goal of contending with bad doctrine publicly, that the hearers go search the scriptures to see whether these things be true. If there's anything I'm good at in this world it's confrontation. That's not necessarily a good thing but it can be used for good under the right circumstances.

I know dispensationalism is a false doctrine, and now so do all of you. If not for researching it for yourselves, at least because every proponent of dispensationalism in this thread produce no biblical scripture in its defense. I knew there would be none because I know there is no scripture to support any of it. But that won't stop people from wresting the scripture to make it so.

Thanks a bunch Ken, you have given me a lot to research and think about and thanks for sharing all the info and knowledge with us. I think this has been a great thread!
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 07:29 PM

Amen
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
I just want to say catch 22, that I appreciate you going and researching this on your own. That's the goal of contending with bad doctrine publicly, that the hearers go search the scriptures to see whether these things be true. If there's anything I'm good at in this world it's confrontation. That's not necessarily a good thing but it can be used for good under the right circumstances.

I know dispensationalism is a false doctrine, and now so do all of you. If not for researching it for yourselves, at least because every proponent of dispensationalism in this thread produce no biblical scripture in its defense. I knew there would be none because I know there is no scripture to support any of it. But that won't stop people from wresting the scripture to make it so.

Here's where those who believe in pre-trib get it from.

From the Vulgate translated into English from the Hebrew and Greek: 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "A God who really exists, and to wait for the appearing of His Son from heaven, Jesus, whom He raised from the dead, our Saviour from the vengeance that is to come."

Apocalypse 3:10 "Thou hast kept true to my lesson of endurance, and I will keep thee safe from the hour of trial which is soon to fall upon the whole world, for the testing of all who dwell on the earth."
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7

Really? What about the criminal on the cross who said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom". When did he repent?

Then Jesus said, "This day you shall be with me in paradise".

When he recognized his guilt and rebuked the other criminal for not doing the same.
Posted By: T-Rex

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
Here's where those who believe in pre-trib get it from.

From the Vulgate translated into English from the Hebrew and Greek: 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "A God who really exists, and to wait for the appearing of His Son from heaven, Jesus, whom He raised from the dead, our Saviour from the vengeance that is to come."

Apocalypse 3:10 "Thou hast kept true to my lesson of endurance, and I will keep thee safe from the hour of trial which is soon to fall upon the whole world, for the testing of all who dwell on the earth."

I couldn't understand Coonman. How am I supposed to understand that?
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7

Here's where those who believe in pre-trib get it from.

From the Vulgate translated into English from the Hebrew and Greek: 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "A God who really exists, and to wait for the appearing of His Son from heaven, Jesus, whom He raised from the dead, our Saviour from the vengeance that is to come."

Apocalypse 3:10 "Thou hast kept true to my lesson of endurance, and I will keep thee safe from the hour of trial which is soon to fall upon the whole world, for the testing of all who dwell on the earth."


Ok so you're saying they get it from man's wisdom and not the received text, or Textus Receptus which is the original manuscripts is ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek. That's the point I'm making that these doctrines don't exist in the Bible. But men have written book upon book about it. Darby got his revelation from reading Isaiah 32. Darby is the father of modern dispensationalism. And let's not forget that the word dispensation comes from the root word dispense which means to pass something out. , And has nothing to do with a measurement of time.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Trapper7

Really? What about the criminal on the cross who said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom". When did he repent?

Then Jesus said, "This day you shall be with me in paradise".

When he recognized his guilt and rebuked the other criminal for not doing the same.

You're really reaching there Posco. I mean a child can see that the thief on the cross had no works except the only work necessary for salvation.

John 6:28-29 KJV
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That was Jesus speaking by the way.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 09:36 PM

I will say this about the thief on the cross. he did repent. he had biblical repentance. He repented from his previous beliefs and turned to the one true God. That's the only repentance necessary. Not a work but a change in ones heart where they choose to believe on Jesus and give up whatever it was the filled that void previously
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 09:44 PM

Ok I'm not the brightest and I know a hen don't have to married to rooster to lay eggs.
But if a woman has twins does that mean she has been with two guys?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:06 PM

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay:but except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

It's a command, not a suggestion. The Bible tells us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith. The devils believe...and tremble.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:12 PM

Posco is God the Father a sinner?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Posco is God the Father a sinner?

I can't imagine where you intend to go with this but I'm certain you'll be wrong. A sinner doesn't have to know a single verse of Revelation to be saved. A sinner does need to be convicted of their sin and repent.God grants repentance and faith. Repentance and faith are both gifts from God and the both are requirements for salvation. If you've never repented, you've never been saved. You deceive yourself.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:21 PM

Here's where I'm going and No he is not, but most of the times the word "repent" is used in the Bible it's in reference to God repenting. That means that repent must mean more than turning from sin.

The definition of repent is in the Bible
Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

See God is the one who turned and did not destroy them, but cannot sin. So the word "repent" means to turn. Not to turn "from sin"

That term "repent of sin" or "repent of your sins" isn't in the Bible anywhere. You were taught that by a man, and not by God. You should repent of your false belief and choose rather to turn to Jesus and his finished, perfect works. That's the only way anyone can be saved.

And yes the devil's believe and tremble but are not mankind, they cannot be saved. They already have been to and fro from heaven because they are angels, and have been cast down. So that's a straw man argument. The can't be saved lol. I mean the devil's know they are doomed to H3|| for eternity.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:23 PM

It's like beating a dead horse. You can't make him stand up and cut cattle. Repentance is a requirement because you have to turn away from what you believed and turn to faith on Jesus. That's biblical repentance.

Show me the verse that says you must repent of sin?

I'll wait
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
It's like beating a dead horse. You can make him stand up and cut cattle. Repentance is a requirement because you have to turn away from what you believed and turn to faith on Jesus. That's biblical repentance.

Show me the verse that says you must repent of sin?

I'll wait

It begs the question. Are you repenting of the steller life you've led or sin? On on my way out the door to work, I'll check back later.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:38 PM

The difference is what is the definition of is. Is this one of those legal arguments. It is certainly sounding like it is, or is it?

So did anyone ever come up with any ideas whats going to happen to those bridesmaids or the best man to this wedding that's coming up?
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
I will say this about the thief on the cross. he did repent. he had biblical repentance. He repented from his previous beliefs and turned to the one true God. That's the only repentance necessary. Not a work but a change in ones heart where they choose to believe on Jesus and give up whatever it was the filled that void previously

Yes, to turn, a change of heart.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Posco

It begs the question. Are you repenting of the steller life you've led or sin? On on my way out the door to work, I'll check back later.


No you're repenting of your unbelief. See only those who believe properly are saved. Those who don't are not. Remember Jesus in the book of John? Here are many of his quotes so we are on the same page. And don't believe me, take it from him. I'll take this moment to set this to everyone. Don't trust in me and what I say, go to the Bible and read it.for yourself.

John 3:15-18 KJV
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice those who believeth not are condemned already. Why because we are all sinner and all deserve H3||


John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:29 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.



So tell me again how "repenting of sin" is a requirement for salvation and Jesus never said it one time?
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 10:51 PM

John 3:18 is super clear. Imagine God knowing that you have to repent of your sins to be saved and leaving that part out of John 3:18 lol

Only those who don't believe are condemned, therefor only those who believe properly are saved.

It's that simple.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/12/23 11:37 PM

There was a 35 yr old woman that had a sad childhood and her grown up life was no better. She was at her wits end and considered ending her life. Someone got her to see a shrink. She didn't have much money but what could she lose, she was at her end. The first night she met with the Dr. and he soon determined she had a lot of baggage that was going to have to be dealt with. Their first session flew by quickly. He had her confessing every sin she ever did and only got up to age 8. He told her he would have her talk with his assistant for the rest of her treatment. She really enjoyed coming each evening in the dim lit room, lying on the couch and spilling her guts. The assistant would never say a word, just nodded when she greeted him. He just sat there writing on his tablet and peering over his glasses. They spent 3 weeks 5 nights a week with her just confessing her sins. She had a, lets just say a very complicated life. She had only gotten up to age 30 and she was running out of money quick. So on Friday of the last week she decided she needed to confess 5 yrs worth, it was mostly just reruns anyway. She had been feeling a lot better and at the end of her session she told the assistant how much better she was feeling and was out of money and thanked him for listening all those weeks. At which time he stopped writing and peered over his glasses and said "lo siento, no hablo inglés".
Posted By: 2wd

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/14/23 01:50 PM

Acts 2: 36-41
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/14/23 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by 2wd
Acts 2: 36-41

Amen.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/14/23 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
John 3:18 is super clear. Imagine God knowing that you have to repent of your sins to be saved and leaving that part out of John 3:18 lol

Only those who don't believe are condemned, therefor only those who believe properly are saved.

It's that simple.

Acts 17:30
Posted By: Coyote Clayton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/14/23 04:59 PM

Please explain how a man repents without looking inward and judges his compliance to the Law? If a man can't comply to all of the Law, would not that be considered sin?

We are argue about specific traps, lures, baits, and trap location but we still believe in the trapping traditions. Yet we say arguing/debating these topics is why we don't want anything to do with discussing theology.

The Lord Jesus, Paul, and the Son's of Thunder offended a lot people. Love 'em first and tell them the truth.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Ken Smith
John 3:18 is super clear. Imagine God knowing that you have to repent of your sins to be saved and leaving that part out of John 3:18 lol

Only those who don't believe are condemned, therefor only those who believe properly are saved.

It's that simple.

Acts 17:30


Don't forget the continuance to the Apostle Paul's preaching after Acts 17:30, which is Acts 17:31. Together these lines are the Theme of the Book of Acts.
Praise God for the Apostle Paul and for God's revealing of His Word for us.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:32 AM

Was not Luke the Author of Acts?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:19 AM

Hermeneutics is a worthy way to seek fresh, unbiased ideas as to what God is seeking to say in His Scripture for us.
Observation - Interpretation - Application are the foundations upon which solid hermeneutics rests, and in that we realize that the Bible is narrative literature, 66 canonical books in total and all of it, from Genesis to Revelation is intertwined by a God who does the impossible (scholars have identified some 400,000 interwoven themes in the Bible).

Hermeneutics is often done in our post-modern era as an "individual" endeavor, attempting to find, "what the Bible means to a particular person."
But I'm of the camp that the Bible, all of it, is God's Story. It's about Him - His Creation - His Redemptive Plan for all of it - And His Restoration of it, so the Story is really about God.

We're chatting about any of it by God's gift of grace, and because of that we should walk humbly with each other.
Let's remember that the mystery has been unveiled (the Church) and we who follow Jesus are called by grace to gather as one.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Was not Luke the Author of Acts?

Yes.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
John 3:18 is super clear. Imagine God knowing that you have to repent of your sins to be saved and leaving that part out of John 3:18 lol

Only those who don't believe are condemned, therefor only those who believe properly are saved.

It's that simple.


Isn't it interesting how tangled up we get ourselves when we think we can cut the Gordian knot and make quick work out of our objectives.

Luke:13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

By your reasoning, would this be true? Jesus does not even mention faith in these scriptures. Now if faith was necessary wouldn't he have mentioned it here?

You see that's what happens when we butcher the scriptures. We don't know if we might get killed in a car wreck tonight. Faith is a positive and the other side of the equation is repent which is a negative. Maybe the lost find repentance repulsive because it is negative and negatives repel each other.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:06 AM

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by Ken Smith
John 3:18 is super clear. Imagine God knowing that you have to repent of your sins to be saved and leaving that part out of John 3:18 lol

Only those who don't believe are condemned, therefor only those who believe properly are saved.

It's that simple.


Isn't it interesting how tangled up we get ourselves when we think we can cut the Gordian knot and make quick work out of our objectives.

Luke:13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

By your reasoning, would this be true? Jesus does not even mention faith in these scriptures. Now if faith was necessary wouldn't he have mentioned it here?

You see that's what happens when we butcher the scriptures. We don't know if we might get killed in a car wreck tonight. Faith is a positive and the other side of the equation is repent which is a negative. Maybe the lost find repentance repulsive because it is negative and negatives repel each other.

Interesting you find repentance as a negative. I don't. I see it as a strong positive. I don't think Scripture has been butchered either. It has been in your view, also in what I consider Marks wrong view. Isn't that how we ended up with so many religions? Stand a 100 people in a room, show them something and how many different opinions will you have?
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:47 AM

Catch 22: Would you consider the 10 commandments or speaking in tongues positive or negative?
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Catch 22: Would you consider the 10 commandments or speaking in tongues positive or negative?

I think all Christians consider the 10 Commandments positive and I think that some consider speaking in tounges a positive as to how they interpret scripture. You seem to be wanting to draw us in to your own rabbit hole. Why not just put it out there?
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:02 AM

When I was a kid I never did think getting a whipping as very positive.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Catch 22: Would you consider the 10 commandments or speaking in tongues positive or negative?

I think all Christians consider the 10 Commandments positive and I think that some consider speaking in tounges a positive as to how they interpret scripture. You seem to be wanting to draw us in to your own rabbit hole. Why not just put it out there?


Well the 10 commandments kill they don't give life, seems negative to me.

Tongues edifies the believer and repels the unbeliever.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
When I was a kid I never did think getting a whipping as very positive.

Well when I was a kid I didn't either. When I grew up I was thankful. I see no negative. I was raised in a touge speaking church and honestly they freaked me out. However they gave glory to God how they seen fit. How they interpreted the word and I fault them not. I think they were welcomed.
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
[quote=Catch22][quote=Foxpaw

Well the 10 commandments kill they don't give life, seems negative to me.

Tongues edifies the believer and repels the unbeliever.


Where in the commandments does it say kill ?



The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
When I was a kid I never did think getting a whipping as very positive.



I bet back in the day, kids didn't like having their hands stuck into a hot fire either . Yet it was better to do that, than have a curious kid get burned badly or burned to death.
Remember there wasn't a doctor just around the corner back then.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Catch 22: Would you consider the 10 commandments or speaking in tongues positive or negative?

I think all Christians consider the 10 Commandments positive and I think that some consider speaking in tounges a positive as to how they interpret scripture. You seem to be wanting to draw us in to your own rabbit hole. Why not just put it out there?


It's not my rabbit hole. This thread got side tracked with the replacement theology conundrum. I'm sure with all the new bible schools there has been a lot of axe heads that has been lost and the sad part they were all borrowed. Yes, I most certainly think we must read the bible and be accountable on our own. God wants accountability. from the individual. Getting in a crowd will not let us slip by. Nor get in on gandma's coat tail The redemption silver for the sockets of the tabernacle is good example of that.
Studying what has been written over hundreds of years is not achieved by a 3 week correspondence course and most people work and don't have the time to devote to it. Most of us learn a little here and a little there. So there has been people has put time, energy and money in blazing a trail thru it. Yes there has been many deceivers but some have had their works literally proven by fire and time.
Sometimes we just have to take something thats proven and go with it until its proven different. Just look how many pages has been spent here on "repent". So if we can't reach a quick conclusion on just that one word then Heaven help us when it comes to the replacement theology which wants to do away with Israel and leave the bridesmaids and best man of the upcoming wedding out of the picture.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ohio Wolverine
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
[quote=Catch22][quote=Foxpaw

Well the 10 commandments kill they don't give life, seems negative to me.

Tongues edifies the believer and repels the unbeliever.


Where in the commandments does it say kill ?



The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

I never meant to imply that it needed to be abolished. And it is very important but still negative. How would we know we were lost if not for it.
Jump off a building and see if gravity will kill you. Unless you have access to another type of law of lift or something. The law of Christ.
There is an Ark in Heaven that the one on earth was modeled after thats awaiting judgment day. God intended for that Ark to be be carried, not carted around.
My point is that God does have negatives.
I'm past sleepy so if this is unsatisfactory pick it up later.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jurassic Park
Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken, you lost me at your first harsh sentence. I didn't read the rest. Sorry.
Believe it or not, Scripture has been wondrously examined and debated by faithful saints long before 1611. And we do it still.
As a fellow believer, I urge you to consider that we don't - in love and humility for one another - debate one another with terminology like you use prior to quoting God's Special Revelation for us, which everyone - believers and non-believers alike - call the Bible.

Daggum.... Are you one of dem Baptists? grin whistle laugh

Blessings,
Mark


You’ve posted pages and pages worth of verses from the bible and your personal beliefs, and when someone shares his you cut him off by saying he’s too harsh and it’s not worth reading.

Your head is so far up your own butt man!

Just can’t handle another trapper sharing the gospel eh!


I hesitate to comment here because it's kinda mean, but it's true. I completely believe that Mark runs way more people off from Christianity than he'll ever convert to it. It's just his natural personality because he was the same way before he embarked on the theology course. I've been waiting for God to touch him and show him how best to call people to the Lord but it's not happened yet.

The thing is I agree with most of what Mark posts (not including Pre-Trib Rapture), but it's the WAY he posts it. Most people, whether heathen or devout church member, will not be taken in by his condescending posts.

I kind of like Mark, and so I hope he figures out the happy medium between sharing the Good News, and chasing people off from it.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 07:03 AM

Amen
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:41 AM

Angela, I respect your posts but wonder why anyone would think I'm trying to convert someone to Christianity? On an online post? No person has the power to regenerate another.
As far as God touching my heart, and helping me post better... it's online. The "WAY I say it?" It's online so there's no means possible to include the verbal and non-verbal cues that are 95% of human communication. I humbly ask you think about that when you read my post? I do.

My posts are typically information based. And I know that can be a rub nowadays. Mostly not "liked" and usually unwanted in our post-modern world. Philosophers tell us that. People want other people to "like" their posts nowadays, not post information for heaven's sake. That's taken as a thumbs down. Taken as, "what you don't side with me?" (We are marinated in a dichotomy society). PICK ONE they say!!! Quit with all the info stufff! Trying to show you're better than me like you do when you post like that. Tell me, you with me? Or against me? PICK ONE! But that's not why I post.... so that people will side with me.
Why do I post most often? .... Consider me the "consider this" guy. Old school I know.

I have reverence for this site because I knew the man well who it's created to honor. Charles Dobbins.
So when you post as you do, and the next poster gleefully posts after you an "Amen", a biblical term he's using not in a positive way but as disparagement of another person....how sad.

So yes, I do ask some on this site from time to time why they mock others? Discourage others. Call other people names and insult their character?
Why they run coffee entrepreneurs down publicly? Why they do anything that is hurtful with glee?
Angela, please know this is the daggum internet. I have no way to gauge the tone in your voice, they way you stand when you say something, or all the other 95% of communication.
But I respect your opinion and I hope you don't take this summary as a rebuke. It's not. It's an explanation.

I don't sign people up for God. I can't. And I can't chase them off with internet posts either. God is able to do all he needs without me, I assure you. I affirm theology that God calls, we don't. We can't.
And if you've followed my journey, and I think you have, you know my seminary studies in my 60's were a challenging but wondrous learning. I've learned some things during umpteen ministerial supports of people who are hurting, 124 funerals in 2 plus years, pastoring a church when I'm there, and all the rest....

People are angry deep down. People are hurting because of what others have done to them. People are seeking pleasure in a lot of crappy places, trying to rid themselves of depression and anxiety and every other DSM code known and unknown to man.
With no foreseeable end in sight.
So may God help us, because people cheer most often for the sin and the sinner, and laugh, mock, disparage, and openly shout down - in anger - anyone trying to do the opposite.

I do enjoy this site with my morning Joe before running traps, or officiating a funeral, or sitting with yet another broken family as a minister of the God of the Bible.
If I do it wrong on this site, I repent of it as best any person can. By Grace.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:45 AM

Where in Acts 2 does it say to repent "of sin"??

It doesn't. none of you are listening. Not only does it not say it in Acts; any of the chapters, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the Bible. It says to repent. Not to repent "of sin". You and everyone who has taught you that is adding that to the scripture. It's not in the Bible. Please produce the chapter and verse that has the prepositional phrase "of sin" of "of your sins" added to the term repent or repentance. Just one verse.

So let's break down the verses you gentlemen shared and see what Pater and Paul are commanding the hearers to repent of.

First off I love Acts 2:36-38 because it's BIBLICAL REPENTANCE.

Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In this verse Peter clearly teaches about faith. He says "Therefore let all the house of Israel KNOW ASSUREDLY" this means to not only know something but to believe it. What do they need to believe? That God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ. This is exactly what Jesus was teaching in the book of John, that you must believe that Jesus is he whom was sent by God.

In Verse 37 we see that those who Peter is preaching to get pricked in their heart. Why? Because he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What did Peter tell them to repent of in verse 38? He said it in verse 36. That they must "know assuredly that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jesus is their Lord and the Messiah. He told them to repent and believe. It's that simple. He never said repent of sin cuz that's not in the Bible anywhere. But when you do believe what are you saved from? The punishment for your sins, which is (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). That's equal to the remission of sins which is used elsewhere in the Bible. In fact John taught to repent and believe for the remission of sins.

Next verse which I also love. Paul at Mars Hill where he declared the "UNKNOWN GOD" to those who trust in every god they can except the God that Paul knows very well, the one true God of Heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob the same God who's word never once contradicts itself nor commands you to "repent of sin".

We see in verse 18 that the strange new doctrine that Paul preached was Jesus and the resurrection meaning the Gospel.

Acts 17:18 KJV
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

In verses 22-23 we see Paul call the epicureans and stoicks out for being superstitious because they had alters to many gods, and the one to the "unknown god" Paul singled out, and chose to teach them about the God of Heaven for the following 5-6 verses.

Acts 17:22-23 KJV
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. [23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Then after Paul was done calling them ignorant he stated the command from God to repent.. but from what? Did he scold them for being in forincation, or for not tithing. Did he scold them for lying to their parents or not taking care of their children? Or maybe he got in to them for stealing and robbery?!... No, oh yeah he scold them for not believing properly, for having a misplaced faith in an unknown god, but Paul preached to them Jesus and his resurrection.

Every command to repent in reference to salvation is not only about turning from your unbelief or false belief, but turning to the one true God.

Notice what repentance doctrine John the Baptist taught. Yeah that they should believe
Acts 19:4 KJV
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Jesus commanded that ye repent and believe the gospel.

Mark 1:15 KJV
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And finally in Matthew 21 we see Jesus, after preaching the definition of repentance(to turn) then telling them what they should do once they repent...

Matthew 21:31-32 KJV
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. [32] For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Now why would Jesus say that sinner(harlots) go to heaven before the priest and Scribes? Because they have not repented of their unbelief. I mean it's so clear that if you don't understand then you must have been made to believe a lie. They repented NOT afterward, that they might believe. So clear.


And listen obviously the Bibles wisdom isn't for everyone. Some need to go to hours and weeks of school to just begin to understand it after it's been taught to them by other men, but anyone saved can see the clear teachings of the Bible with just a little prayer while reading it.

I like the verses you shared, but it doesn't mean what you think it does and if you read them all in context you can see exactly what it does mean, rather than picking out one verse that says repent and adding the phrase "of sin" to it to make it fit the false doctrine that you believe.

And here is why you should never add anything to the scripture, or take it away for that matter.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

See if you add to the Bible i.e. (repent "of sin") the plagues that are written in the book shall be added unto you.
If you take away from the book of this prophecy, God shall remove your part out of the book of life. Meaning you will go to H3||. This is why I know Darby, and Scofield are burning in H3|| because they both openly chose and taught to remove parts of the Bible that didn't fit that doctrine they taught mankind. Don't be like those dead dispensationalists. They were full of dead men's bones.

This is a stark warning to anyone who would ever thing to do these two thing, add or remove from scripture. It will only cost you your life.

Remember the exhortation in Proverbs that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. This is why I will never listen to the wresting of scripture taught my men in church, or Bible college etc, I don't have to answer to you. I have to answer to God
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:49 AM

I don't find repentance as a negative. I believe in biblical repentance. But if you add to the scripture you will suffer the plagues written in the Bible. I for one won't. As I will not add to the scripture. The term "of sin" isn't anywhere in those verses you shared. You should repent of your unbelief or false beliefs and turn it repent to faith alone on Christ.

I swear I truly believe that people who can not understand that are made by God to believe a lie that they all might be d@mn3d.

For all of those who are reading along and understanding look at how many times I have said the same thing with all the scripture to back it up and these three or four men cannot see it. It's unfortunate and sad. I really pray they repent
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


To this I say again. I believe the Bible and not man. If Jesus said in the Bible just one place that you must repent "of sin" I'd believenit, but that defeats the purpose of him dying for our sins. See that's adding to the Bible and gospel your own work that helps save you. And is not in the Bible anywhere. So that church and all the ones like it that went to Bible college and taught you those lies can repent of your sins till you're literally blue in the face and it won't save you.

It is a lie, and you are being made to believe it. The question is by who?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 12:01 PM

Ken, you realize the context of the biblical story is 66 books long, and so we should walk in grace towards one another, with humility towards other believers as we seek the meaning of God's Word?
Chapter and verse hermeneutics is not typically how that's best done.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Where in Acts 2 does it say to repent "of sin"??

It doesn't. none of you are listening. Not only does it not say it in Acts; any of the chapters, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the Bible. It says to repent. Not to repent "of sin". You and everyone who has taught you that is adding that to the scripture. It's not in the Bible. Please produce the chapter and verse that has the prepositional phrase "of sin" of "of your sins" added to the term repent or repentance. Just one verse.

So let's break down the verses you gentlemen shared and see what Pater and Paul are commanding the hearers to repent of.

First off I love Acts 2:36-38 because it's BIBLICAL REPENTANCE.

Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In this verse Peter clearly teaches about faith. He says "Therefore let all the house of Israel KNOW ASSUREDLY" this means to not only know something but to believe it. What do they need to believe? That God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ. This is exactly what Jesus was teaching in the book of John, that you must believe that Jesus is he whom was sent by God.

In Verse 37 we see that those who Peter is preaching to get pricked in their heart. Why? Because he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What did Peter tell them to repent of in verse 38? He said it in verse 36. That they must "know assuredly that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jesus is their Lord and the Messiah. He told them to repent and believe. It's that simple. He never said repent of sin cuz that's not in the Bible anywhere. But when you do believe what are you saved from? The punishment for your sins, which is (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). That's equal to the remission of sins which is used elsewhere in the Bible. In fact John taught to repent and believe for the remission of sins.

Next verse which I also love. Paul at Mars Hill where he declared the "UNKNOWN GOD" to those who trust in every god they can except the God that Paul knows very well, the one true God of Heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob the same God who's word never once contradicts itself nor commands you to "repent of sin".

We see in verse 18 that the strange new doctrine that Paul preached was Jesus and the resurrection meaning the Gospel.

Acts 17:18 KJV
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

In verses 22-23 we see Paul call the epicureans and stoicks out for being superstitious because they had alters to many gods, and the one to the "unknown god" Paul singled out, and chose to teach them about the God of Heaven for the following 5-6 verses.

Acts 17:22-23 KJV
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. [23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Then after Paul was done calling them ignorant he stated the command from God to repent.. but from what? Did he scold them for being in forincation, or for not tithing. Did he scold them for lying to their parents or not taking care of their children? Or maybe he got in to them for stealing and robbery?!... No, oh yeah he scold them for not believing properly, for having a misplaced faith in an unknown god, but Paul preached to them Jesus and his resurrection.

Every command to repent in reference to salvation is not only about turning from your unbelief or false belief, but turning to the one true God.

Notice what repentance doctrine John the Baptist taught. Yeah that they should believe
Acts 19:4 KJV
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Jesus commanded that ye repent and believe the gospel.

Mark 1:15 KJV
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And finally in Matthew 21 we see Jesus, after preaching the definition of repentance(to turn) then telling them what they should do once they repent...

Matthew 21:31-32 KJV
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. [32] For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Now why would Jesus say that sinner(harlots) go to heaven before the priest and Scribes? Because they have not repented of their unbelief. I mean it's so clear that if you don't understand then you must have been made to believe a lie. They repented NOT afterward, that they might believe. So clear.


And listen obviously the Bibles wisdom isn't for everyone. Some need to go to hours and weeks of school to just begin to understand it after it's been taught to them by other men, but anyone saved can see the clear teachings of the Bible with just a little prayer while reading it.

I like the verses you shared, but it doesn't mean what you think it does and if you read them all in context you can see exactly what it does mean, rather than picking out one verse that says repent and adding the phrase "of sin" to it to make it fit the false doctrine that you believe.

And here is why you should never add anything to the scripture, or take it away for that matter.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

See if you add to the Bible i.e. (repent "of sin") the plagues that are written in the book shall be added unto you.
If you take away from the book of this prophecy, God shall remove your part out of the book of life. Meaning you will go to H3||. This is why I know Darby, and Scofield are burning in H3|| because they both openly chose and taught to remove parts of the Bible that didn't fit that doctrine they taught mankind. Don't be like those dead dispensationalists. They were full of dead men's bones.

This is a stark warning to anyone who would ever thing to do these two thing, add or remove from scripture. It will only cost you your life.

Remember the exhortation in Proverbs that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. This is why I will never listen to the wresting of scripture taught my men in church, or Bible college etc, I don't have to answer to you. I have to answer to God


You sure used a lot of words to say repentance is a feeling of regret or remorse and is the reason a sinless God can do it and also have it noted in His word. That’s how He explained it to me anyway.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 12:29 PM

So if an abortion doctor comes to know Grace, that abortionist should continue in the practice knowing that what is being performed is destroying the image bearers of God? The actual salvation experience is the ultimate act of repentance. 2 Corinthians 5:17. How about Romans 6: 1-4? Does not repentance mean "to turn from"?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 12:43 PM

The Andersonites are tough to dialog with, online or even in person. I've met a few along the way. They don't see spiritual worth in repentance... unless of course, others do it.
But what do I know? I go to church and I went to seminary where men like Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, Swindoll, Pentecost, Bailey and more have taught, and where I sat and chatting theology with students from 90 nations around the globe with humility as our guide.

Perhaps we'd do well to remember that the Biblical narrative is one of instruction and truth.... and today's rampant anti-authoritarianism (submission to authority) has no tolerance for that theme, because God is the ultimate authority.

Blessings,
Mark

Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton
So if an abortion doctor comes to know Grace, that abortionist should continue in the practice knowing that what is being performed is destroying the image bearers of God? The actual salvation experience is the ultimate act of repentance. 2 Corinthians 5:17. How about Romans 6: 1-4? Does not repentance mean "to turn from"?


Does the abortion Doctor sin no more if he never aborts another child?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
The Andersonites are tough to dialog with, online or even in person. I've met a few along the way. They don't see spiritual worth in repentance... unless of course, others do it.
But what do I know? I go to church and I went to seminary where men like Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, Swindoll, Pentecost, Bailey and more have taught, and where I sat and chatting theology with students from 90 nations around the globe with humility as our guide.

Perhaps we'd do well to remember that the Biblical narrative is one of instruction and truth.... and today's rampant anti-authoritarianism (submission to authority) has no tolerance for that theme, because God is the ultimate authority.

Blessings,
Mark



There you go again my friend.
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Trapper7
I'm a Christian. I place my trust in the fact that I'm saved because Jesus shed his blood on the cross to save the world. If that's not so, then there's no hope for mankind. All of us are doomed.

Whether you believe in pre-trib, mid=-trib, or post trib, is immaterial. If you don't believe that, you will encourage more to flee.

wink
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
It is a lie, and you are being made to believe it. The question is by who?

Have you ever heard of a guy named John Bunyan? He wrote Pilgrim's Progress about four hundred years ago. It's a Christian classic. Jonathan Edwards? George Whitefield? Charles Spurgeon? Giants of the faith. All of them believed as I do.

Beyond those, there is the Holy Spirit of God whose ministry is, in part, to convince the world of sin. That is convicting the sinner of sin before and after salvation. What you are is a proponent of easy believism.

The more you write, the more I stand in doubt of you.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:38 PM

Should loving God be difficult?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Should loving God be difficult?

Man in his unregenerate state hates God. The Bible says so.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Should loving God be difficult?

Man in his unregenerate state hates God. The Bible says so.



Your flock must be massive. Congratulations!
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by J Staton
So if an abortion doctor comes to know Grace, that abortionist should continue in the practice knowing that what is being performed is destroying the image bearers of God? The actual salvation experience is the ultimate act of repentance. 2 Corinthians 5:17. How about Romans 6: 1-4? Does not repentance mean "to turn from"?


Does the abortion Doctor sin no more if he never aborts another child?

Did the woman, guilty of adultry , sin no more? Maybe we should ask does the blood of Christ cover all sin past, present, and future?
Posted By: Giant Sage

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by rick brocious
Originally Posted by Mark June
Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark

I take it the stay at home thesis promoters is a jab at Ken .

I don't think it was a jab but it may have been a response to me saying it was OK when Wolfe said this is why a don't go to church. I was not trying to discurage the young man from seeking God and truth. I actually go to a church building service. And I'm a member of the church . But it's hard to find a church that doesn't try to teach some sort of strange doctrine or doctrines as if there dogmatic. I believe Wolfe is seeking truth and that God will draw him in his timing. To Wolfe dog , I do incurage you to keep posting on these things that interest you. Though the conversations day seem devicive, I think they can be edifying. These are my favorite post to read and follow they always get me to search the scriptures and give me mote understanding.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Your flock must be massive. Congratulations!

Narrow is the way.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Your flock must be massive. Congratulations!

Narrow is the way.


Will we lose our salvation if we are disappointed to see someone in heaven we don’t think should be there?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by J Staton
So if an abortion doctor comes to know Grace, that abortionist should continue in the practice knowing that what is being performed is destroying the image bearers of God? The actual salvation experience is the ultimate act of repentance. 2 Corinthians 5:17. How about Romans 6: 1-4? Does not repentance mean "to turn from"?


Does the abortion Doctor sin no more if he never aborts another child?

Originally Posted by J Staton
Did the woman, guilty of adultry , sin no more? Maybe we should ask does the blood of Christ cover all sin past, present, and future?


I can guarantee she did sin again, unless she died right after He said that to her.

Sin in your life changes as you follow. That is a good question J.
Posted By: KsTrapper88

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:31 PM

[/quote]

Will we lose our salvation if we are disappointed to see someone in heaven we don’t think should be there?
[/quote]

Salvation can’t be lost. But James says faith without works is dead, the entire concept of knowing a tree by its fruit, there are tons of biblical passages that a right faith leads to a change of life. The killing of sin in our lives isn’t earning us salvation but it absolutely proves our salvation. You can’t separate faith in Jesus from a changed life, of daily confessing and picking up our cross as we follow our Lord...it’s called sanctification. When born again we can’t look the same as before or we aren’t a new creation in Christ. That includes turning from our sins everyday, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 03:49 PM

What happened to "How to spot the coming antichrist"?

What I remember from the endless bible study I had to endure he will be wounded near to death or maybe even dead and then come back. People will believe its a miracle. He will have a mark or scar on his fore head. lot of preachers thought it was Mikhail Gorbachev. Were saying he would likely be shot but miraculously live. Got to be a few on here remember that stuff.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Where in Acts 2 does it say to repent "of sin"??

It doesn't. none of you are listening. Not only does it not say it in Acts; any of the chapters, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the Bible. It says to repent. Not to repent "of sin". You and everyone who has taught you that is adding that to the scripture. It's not in the Bible. Please produce the chapter and verse that has the prepositional phrase "of sin" of "of your sins" added to the term repent or repentance. Just one verse.

So let's break down the verses you gentlemen shared and see what Pater and Paul are commanding the hearers to repent of.

First off I love Acts 2:36-38 because it's BIBLICAL REPENTANCE.

Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In this verse Peter clearly teaches about faith. He says "Therefore let all the house of Israel KNOW ASSUREDLY" this means to not only know something but to believe it. What do they need to believe? That God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ. This is exactly what Jesus was teaching in the book of John, that you must believe that Jesus is he whom was sent by God.

In Verse 37 we see that those who Peter is preaching to get pricked in their heart. Why? Because he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What did Peter tell them to repent of in verse 38? He said it in verse 36. That they must "know assuredly that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jesus is their Lord and the Messiah. He told them to repent and believe. It's that simple. He never said repent of sin cuz that's not in the Bible anywhere. But when you do believe what are you saved from? The punishment for your sins, which is (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). That's equal to the remission of sins which is used elsewhere in the Bible. In fact John taught to repent and believe for the remission of sins.

Next verse which I also love. Paul at Mars Hill where he declared the "UNKNOWN GOD" to those who trust in every god they can except the God that Paul knows very well, the one true God of Heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob the same God who's word never once contradicts itself nor commands you to "repent of sin".

We see in verse 18 that the strange new doctrine that Paul preached was Jesus and the resurrection meaning the Gospel.

Acts 17:18 KJV
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

In verses 22-23 we see Paul call the epicureans and stoicks out for being superstitious because they had alters to many gods, and the one to the "unknown god" Paul singled out, and chose to teach them about the God of Heaven for the following 5-6 verses.

Acts 17:22-23 KJV
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. [23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Then after Paul was done calling them ignorant he stated the command from God to repent.. but from what? Did he scold them for being in forincation, or for not tithing. Did he scold them for lying to their parents or not taking care of their children? Or maybe he got in to them for stealing and robbery?!... No, oh yeah he scold them for not believing properly, for having a misplaced faith in an unknown god, but Paul preached to them Jesus and his resurrection.

Every command to repent in reference to salvation is not only about turning from your unbelief or false belief, but turning to the one true God.

Notice what repentance doctrine John the Baptist taught. Yeah that they should believe
Acts 19:4 KJV
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Jesus commanded that ye repent and believe the gospel.

Mark 1:15 KJV
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And finally in Matthew 21 we see Jesus, after preaching the definition of repentance(to turn) then telling them what they should do once they repent...

Matthew 21:31-32 KJV
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. [32] For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Now why would Jesus say that sinner(harlots) go to heaven before the priest and Scribes? Because they have not repented of their unbelief. I mean it's so clear that if you don't understand then you must have been made to believe a lie. They repented NOT afterward, that they might believe. So clear.


And listen obviously the Bibles wisdom isn't for everyone. Some need to go to hours and weeks of school to just begin to understand it after it's been taught to them by other men, but anyone saved can see the clear teachings of the Bible with just a little prayer while reading it.

I like the verses you shared, but it doesn't mean what you think it does and if you read them all in context you can see exactly what it does mean, rather than picking out one verse that says repent and adding the phrase "of sin" to it to make it fit the false doctrine that you believe.

And here is why you should never add anything to the scripture, or take it away for that matter.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

See if you add to the Bible i.e. (repent "of sin") the plagues that are written in the book shall be added unto you.
If you take away from the book of this prophecy, God shall remove your part out of the book of life. Meaning you will go to H3||. This is why I know Darby, and Scofield are burning in H3|| because they both openly chose and taught to remove parts of the Bible that didn't fit that doctrine they taught mankind. Don't be like those dead dispensationalists. They were full of dead men's bones.

This is a stark warning to anyone who would ever thing to do these two thing, add or remove from scripture. It will only cost you your life.

Remember the exhortation in Proverbs that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. This is why I will never listen to the wresting of scripture taught my men in church, or Bible college etc, I don't have to answer to you. I have to answer to God


You sure used a lot of words to say repentance is a feeling of regret or remorse and is the reason a sinless God can do it and also have it noted in His word. That’s how He explained it to me anyway.

Don't put words on my mouth I said repent means to turn. That's it you have to read context to understand what the repentance is for.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 06:45 PM

God is not a respecter or persons and we shouldn't be either. That list of men that you went to the same college with or believed just alike means nothing if what they say doesn't add up to the Word of God.

Just know that Jesus taught biblical repentance just as John the Baptist and Paul. Meaning repenting of your unbelief to having faith alone on Jesus and his finished works. That is how a person is saved. So when you do die don't act like no one told you.

Here is Jesus's words, although I'm sure you will find a problem with that too.

Matthew 7:13-23 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And here is Jesus telling you and everyone else what the work of God is

John 6:29,39-40,47 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[47] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.



It doesn't get any clearer than that, believe what you want.

I'm just glad I don't have to bring the names of dead heretics as evidence of what I believe. I got the Bible
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 08:06 PM

Coyote Clayton hit on it with his reference to the law. Salvation sounds simple. It is, and it isn't. God uses the law as a harsh taskmaster to drive us to Christ, to show us our need for him. It's not merely about mouthing a prayer or raising your hand in a church service. A sinner will feel the full weight of their sin before God grants the graces of repentance and faith. It's the weight of our sin that causes us to cry out for mercy.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:06 PM

No it's not. It's about truly believing in your heart. The alter calls don't save anyone. The law doesn't save anyone, being guilty of sin doesn't save anyone, feeling like you want to repent of your sins because you have a full weight of sin doesn't save anyone. Crying out to God doesn't save anyone. Prayer doesn't save anyone
Only believing on Jesus Christ can save you, and that's not knowing he exists or that he was God in the flesh, it only comes by putting ALL of you faith on Jesus and his perfect, finished works. You can't add to it nor take away from it and you sure as heck can't repent of enough sin to match it.


And still no one can find one verse that says you need to repent "of sin" to be saved, because the Bible doesn't say it one time. JS
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:37 PM

Ken, if it’s not the weight of our sins that cause us to cry out and ask for forgiveness, because we recognize our shortcomings and unworthiness before a perfect God, then what is it?

I do agree that religion is nothing more than man’s attempt to reconcile himself with a Holy and perfect God. Jesus already did that for us on the cross; anything we try to do other than that may very well be blasphemous, as Jesus already did it.

For me, self reflection in regard to Jesus’ Gospel put me on my knees.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:37 PM

For me I like the way Ken puts it down, bare bones, rubber meeting the road, just the word that is not put to light, darkness or influenced. There are differences in opinion, perhaps some are just semantics.

I will say this. Since this thread started it has lead me to research, open minded thinking and if any thread causes us to open the Bible, it's a good thread.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chancey
Ken, if it’s not the weight of our sins that cause us to cry out and ask for forgiveness, because we recognize our shortcomings and unworthiness before a perfect God, then what is it? How about just knowing we were wrong?

I do agree that religion is nothing more than man’s attempt to reconcile himself with a Holy and perfect God. Jesus already did that for us on the cross; anything we try to do other than that may very well be blasphemous, as Jesus already did it.

For me, self reflection in regard to Jesus’ Gospel put me on my knees.

Posted By: Chancey

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:45 PM

One of the best threads ever. Lots of people I respect dearly even though I haven’t met them all giving wholehearted and sincere thoughts.
Posted By: rick brocious

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Catch22
For me I like the way Ken puts it down, bare bones, rubber meeting the road, just the word that is not put to light, darkness or influenced. There are differences in opinion, perhaps some are just semantics.

I will say this. Since this thread started it has lead me to research, open minded thinking and if any thread causes us to open the Bible, it's a good thread.
X2
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:11 PM

Luke 18:13
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:13 PM

Here are the scriptures that would make you realize you're a sinner. It's not some emotional alter call or scolding from the pulpit. It's just the word of God. When someone is preaching the gospel these are the most common scriptures used to convict a person that they are a sinner.now I agree that a person had to understand they are a sinner before they can be saved, but that's because Jesus came to call sinner to repentance. Not those that are perfect. Of course that is a jab as no one is perfect except for Jesus himself.

Romans 3:10 KJV
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 KJV
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

When reading Romans 3:23 to someone it is important to touch on verses 22 and 24 as these clearly teach salvation without works, and how we are freely justified by God's grace.

Romans 3:22,24 KJV
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Then one should move to Romans 6 to teach that we all deserve the punishment of our sins, because we are all sinners which is already established in chapter 3 verse 10.

Romans 6:23 KJV
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And after we knock it out of the park with Revelation 21:8 which teaches that all men deserve H3|| even the least of sinners i.e. liars

Revelation 21:8 KJV
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


This is how you use scripture to convict a person of sin. It's simple and effective and you don't need a college degree to figure it out. A child easily can understand it
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Luke 18:13

Yes every one that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Originally Posted by Posco
Luke 18:13

Yes every one that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

The tax collector was a model of a truly repentant man. If you've never felt that you had better seek it or you will be one who will answer for their empty profession of Lord, Lord.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:35 PM

There is people that will talk and beg people to an altar but wouldn't Roman 7 convict the conscience?

Romans 7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
There is people that will talk and beg people to an altar but wouldn't Roman 7 convict the conscience?

Romans 7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

There you have the law work.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:39 PM

2 Corinthians 7:10
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:48 PM

This is an excellent verse and could be used in conjunction with the above Verses I shared. Just realize that in the second letter to the Corinthians Paul in this chapter is apologizing for scolding them so hard for allowing fornication in the church and not having the gaul to judge the matter and remove the members out of the church. He is saying he is sorry for the latter that made them sorrowful, but he is glad they repented because of the latter he sent. Read the context it makes perfect sense. This isn't talking about the salvation of a persons soul by faith in Jesus he is discussing the fact that the church is saved from judgement on earth for allowing fornication to run rampant in the church.

2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:48 PM

Great verse tho
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:55 PM

Romans 7 could easily help a person understand conviction. Really the entire Bible could, but it is a hard saying. Paul talking about how the inward man is of the spirit but the body is still flesh. I especially like the verse where he says this

Romans 7:18-23 KJV
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

In the flesh is no good thing.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:57 PM

Romans 8:7-9
Sinners don't overcome that in the flesh, God conquers the sinner with His Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:58 PM

I love these verses and many more. I love the Bible and what is says, how it cuts to the quick and leaves nothing hanging. I love the doctrines of the Bible, but I cannot stand the false doctrines of man, nor the wisdom of man. All of this is from the flesh and in the flesh dwelleth not good thing

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is why you must compare the Bible with the Bible and leave man's wisdom in the dirt where it belongs
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 10:58 PM

Salvation is monergistic, a supernatural work of God.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:00 PM

Yeah walking in the spirit is t easy even for the best of men
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:02 PM

The daily verse on my app was verse 6 out of chapter 8
Romans 8:6 KJV
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Salvation is easy, anyone can do it. Just believe. Don't add to it and it won't fail
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:20 PM

Ken,
Your style of individualistic theology, as it's known, is a 20th century phenomenon. Nowhere in the 2000 year history of the Christian Church since the Incarnation have individuals sought truth by their lonesome. Do you think individualism has merit?

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:24 PM

I'm never alone Mark I have the Holy Ghost. And I'm not sure where I came off as being alone or doing everything on my lonesome. I attended church for many years even preached in church. Grew up going to church and spent half of my adult life if church. I just don't take anything man says at face value unless it aligns with the Word of God
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:34 PM

Help us who don't see as you do, how we are to love God and in that, love one another if we don't gather as the ecclesia?
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken,
Your style of individualistic theology, as it's known, is a 20th century phenomenon. Nowhere in the 2000 year history of the Christian Church since the Incarnation have individuals sought truth by their lonesome. Do you think individualism has merit?

Blessings,
Mark

Not sure where you pulled that from lol, and I know it's directed to Ken but I would take what you call Individualism over the dispensationalism you're being feed down there where the foundation stones were set with Man's word.

Seriously, nowhere in 2000 years people have not sought out the one and only God on their own? Where do you get this stuff? So your saying people haven't and can't come to God without support? We're not talking about where two or more shall gather, but one person can't find God, accept Christ alone?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Salvation is monergistic, a supernatural work of God.


Unless of course, you're Arminian, and then there is a human role involvement.

Me, I figure if Jesus walked in the room and stood next to me, He'd be the 100% and I'd be so small, even 0% is an exaggeration.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Mark June
Ken,
Your style of individualistic theology, as it's known, is a 20th century phenomenon. Nowhere in the 2000 year history of the Christian Church since the Incarnation have individuals sought truth by their lonesome. Do you think individualism has merit?

Blessings,
Mark

Not sure where you pulled that from lol, and I know it's directed to Ken but I would take what you call Individualism over the dispensationalism you're being feed down there where the foundation stones were set with Man's word.

Seriously, nowhere in 2000 years people have not sought out the one and only God on their own? Where do you get this stuff? So your saying people haven't and can't come to God without support? We're not talking about where two or more shall gather, but one person can't find God, accept Christ alone?


You're off course Catch. Where two or more gathered is about church discipline and as to whether people seek God on their own, that depends on how grand you consider the Grace of God?
Individualism is the term used in theology to describe those who don't believe they need to participate in the Church that Christ ordained upon His Ascension. Why even read the Book of Acts, which is about the beginnings of the Christian Church, if we decide we don't need it?
I wasn't making stuff up and you can do more Google searches to find it if you'd like.

We're called as children of God, to gather as the ecclesia - the Church. And up until the 20th century, there was never any orthodox (right thinging) theological history that believed otherwise.
Satan's scheme is to divide as God gathers people to Himself. Satan can't stop God from calling. Satan is powerless to stop Christ's redeeming and the Spirit's sealing of those called.....
BUT, He sure tries to coerce those called into thinking they are fine and dandy all by their lonesome.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:54 PM

To and your question I believe we should all be of one mind when it comes to Christ and him crucified. I personally don't know anything about individualism or it's connection to modern times and religion.

When thinking about my answer to your question this verse popped in my head

1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

This is what we need to know not hermeneutics or any kind of private interpretation of men we only need the scripture and the Holy Spirit with this any saved man can understand the Bible.

1 Corinthians 2 is great, really touches much of the subject matter in this thread.
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 KJV
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:55 PM

On Judgement day there may be a line, but I bet its single file, excluding nations etc.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/15/23 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by Posco
Salvation is monergistic, a supernatural work of God.


Unless of course, you're Arminian, and then there is a human role involvement.

The unregenerate man cannot breathe life into himself, he is dead in trespasses and sins. He doesn't seek after God, he hides from God as did Adam.

God comes calling and awakens the sinner and shows the sinner his need.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Help us who don't see as you do, how we are to love God and in that, love one another if we don't gather as the ecclesia?

I never said that you shouldn't Mark. I believe being together with believers is a great thing. Somehow my distain for bad doctrine has turned me into this individualist outlier that maybe believes in a one man home church or something? Idk I just believe the Bible and can easily recognize flase doctrine when I see it.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:02 AM

It's the Bible that says you have no need that any man teach you. I just repeated it.
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:09 AM

Mark, I don't see myself off course, I see you putting your own personal beliefs to the word. You spin Matthew 18;20 into how those two consider the Grace of God where I see it as truth in the word, where two or more shall gather he is with them.

There are Scriptures about the Church and gathering in belief. However I hold strong that any Man or Women can find, accept our Lord and Savior on their own, as a individual. You don't need to be in Church to accept Christ as your Savior, the road to Damascus proved that.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:09 AM

It's God's will that all men would be saved, not just the ones we believe are called.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

There is one mediator that's Jesus. We have no need of organized religion it's too big, it becomes as successful as the federal govt and fails the individual. It's important for people in their local area to meet together, to know each other, to fellowship. I don't think I ever said anything to the contrary.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:12 AM

And to add to that no man can hide from God. In the future men will hide in the rocks trying to hide themselves from the face of Jesus at his return. Even the unsaved are convicted of their sin, but they didn't believe.

Revelation 6:15-17 KJV
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
To and your question I believe we should all be of one mind when it comes to Christ and him crucified. I personally don't know anything about individualism or it's connection to modern times and religion.

When thinking about my answer to your question this verse popped in my head

1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

This is what we need to know not hermeneutics or any kind of private interpretation of men we only need the scripture and the Holy Spirit with this any saved man can understand the Bible.

1 Corinthians 2 is great, really touches much of the subject matter in this thread.
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 KJV
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Well, the Pharisees were separatists too. Pharisee is from the Hebrew persahin, from parash, “to separate."
Believers are called and wondrously the ecclesia - the church - and Scripture is our guide in this.

The New Testament pattern of church life is that believers come together on the first day of the week to worship and serve the Lord, and that they regularly come together at the Lord’s Table to remember his death on their behalf (1 Cor. 11; 1 Cor. 16:2; Heb. 10:24–26). In it all, it reflects a growing commitment to the gospel, the longing for the good of the church community, and our own spiritual health.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
It's God's will that all men would be saved

But all men are not saved. Salvation is monergistic, God does the seeking. John 3:8
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:30 AM

Any church leader and most people calling themselves faithful to God know challenges face the Christian church in the West, one of the biggest being "expressive individualism"—the be true to yourself mindset that finds self-fulfillment and expression as the highest goal of life.

I like this summary commentary that I've used in church before;
"In this type of society - expressive individualism - isolation and loneliness become more common, in part because people resist relationships that include obligations that may infringe upon their understanding of personal freedom and autonomy. When the purpose of life is reconceived around finding one’s deepest self and expressing it to the world (as opposed to whatever constraints your family, church, society, or politics may put on you), then all of our most significant relationships become recast in light of personal self-development."

So here we are, those gathered by God's grace, humbly gathered together to encourage one another until Christ returns. It's God's plan, so we praise Him.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Ken Smith
It's God's will that all men would be saved

But all men are not saved. Salvation is monergistic, God does the seeking. John 3:8


People would call everyone (they say) if they were God Posco. Be fair is what people say.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Ken Smith
It's God's will that all men would be saved

But all men are not saved. Salvation is monergistic, God does the seeking. John 3:8

Correct as I said all men don't believe. In fact most men don't.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:38 AM

When the angel passes by and sees the tulips over the door, that the chosen ones.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:40 AM

Idk what monergistic means never seen that word before today, but the Bible says this

Acts 17:24-27 KJV
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; [25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; [26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; [27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

See the Bible says God hath made of one blood all nations of men and that they should seek the Lord
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Salvation is monergistic, a supernatural work of God.


Regeneration is birth; sanctification is growth.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by Posco
Salvation is monergistic, a supernatural work of God.


Regeneration is birth; sanctification is growth.

Yes. Regeneration is monergistic, sanctification is synergistic.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Catch22
Mark, I don't see myself off course, I see you putting your own personal beliefs to the word. You spin Matthew 18;20 into how those two consider the Grace of God where I see it as truth in the word, where two or more shall gather he is with them.

There are Scriptures about the Church and gathering in belief. However I hold strong that any Man or Women can find, accept our Lord and Savior on their own, as a individual. You don't need to be in Church to accept Christ as your Savior, the road to Damascus proved that.


And when we think we are or aren't off course, we're encouraged to run it by others in humility and with an earnest attempt to seek truth, not the win.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by Catch22
Mark, I don't see myself off course, I see you putting your own personal beliefs to the word. You spin Matthew 18;20 into how those two consider the Grace of God where I see it as truth in the word, where two or more shall gather he is with them.

There are Scriptures about the Church and gathering in belief. However I hold strong that any Man or Women can find, accept our Lord and Savior on their own, as a individual. You don't need to be in Church to accept Christ as your Savior, the road to Damascus proved that.


And when we think we are or aren't off course, we're encouraged to run it by others in humility and with an earnest attempt to seek truth, not the win.


Except when the blind lead the blind and they both fall in the ditch!
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
See the Bible says God hath made of one blood all nations of men and that they should seek the Lord

But they all do not. They don't come to the light because they don't want their deeds reproved. Think on that for a moment
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:08 AM

The father of all lies believes in God. We can assume the deceiver knows Scripture front to back, so he knows how the story of God ends. So we can assume that his divisive tactics are real and alive but some of us won't play along. At all.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:29 AM

So I did a word search on the term "monergistic" big word. Means a whole lot but it's not in the Bible anywhere

[Linked Image]

So I did the typical Google search to see what all the hooplah is about this term "monergistic" and my initial gut feeling is this is horse feathers at its finest. This is just some reformed, Calvinistic doctrine that man had no free will and only God will determine if and when you are saved. This is why you folks are contending with the clear scripture I have layed out in this thread. You don't believe the gospel. You believe you are special and saved by God because he chose you. That's rich.

[Linked Image]


Here are a couple verses to destroy this garbage doctrine you believe.nfrom the Bible none the less.

Revelation 22:17 KJV
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever

John 3:15-16 KJV
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever

John 12:44-46 KJV
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. [45] And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. [46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Whosoever

Acts 10:43 KJV
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Whosoever, notice in Acts Paul affirms the truth and you learn that remission of sins comes when you believe. Not before when you "repent of sins" lol

Acts 10:43 KJV
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Whosoever

John 11:25-26 KJV
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: [26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus with his own mouth on this one. Believest thou this?

No you don't, you believe some made up horse feathers designed to turn people away from the true Gospel.
Is sad. You should repent
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:39 AM

Score Tulips =1 Daises =1
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
The father of all lies believes in God. We can assume the deceiver knows Scripture front to back, so he knows how the story of God ends. So we can assume that his divisive tactics are real and alive but some of us won't play along. At all.

Blessings,
Mark


Wow, from being likened to an Andersonite, then to a Individualist, a Pharisee, then a separatist and now a devil. You guys did all that in 16 pages. Congrats.

You should well know Mark that God never called any angel a son, as he did all those who believe on Jesus. They cannot be saved nor filled with the Holy Spirit. So the straw man arguments, and name calling just further exposes the fact that you have no scripture to prove any of the man-made doctrines you prescribe to. In fact you might as well be a heretic cuz you actually teach this don't you?

Here is what the Bible says about sons, faith, and angels who will never be called as such, in case you made your last statement in error due to ignorance.


John 1:10-14 KJV
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. [11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Notice in verse 12 how AS MANY as received Christ are called sons of God. And it defines received by saying, even to them that believe on his name.

Hebrews 1:3-6 KJV
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? [6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

See God never called the angels sons, because angels cannot be saved. They believe because they know the truth. That's what believing is, you however don't, and seem to hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Remember the term whosoever next time y'all do a Bible study and maybe humble yourself before God and his word and you won't get confounded publicly for being such a heretic. JS
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:47 AM

Monergism...the doctrine of election, is in the Bible from start to finish. People wonder why the church is so anemic today. It's because a watered-down Arminian gospel has the pews filled with tares.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:49 AM

I don't think in my time at those advanced studies in theology at seminary I remember ever having talked theology with anyone from 90 countries in a 17th century English. How intriguing.
All of us, regardless of what language was native to us, learned Kione Greek and Hebrew hoping that our observation, interpretation, and application hermeneutics were made more accurately.
The original Greek, with its 7 tenses, (English has three: past, present, and future) is wonderful and it's no accident Jesus' preaching and teaching was recorded in it.
So we gather tougher, one with another and encourage, reproof, correct and on occasion rebuke... with compassion and grace.

Blessings,
Mark


Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:59 AM

Trinity as a word appears nowhere in the Bible, does that diminish the doctrine?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:00 AM

Mr. Smith, my post about the enemy was not aimed at you. If I aim my post at you, I'll put your name on it or quote you, but most of my posts are general in nature.
The 17th century English was aimed at you for a reason.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:03 AM

No it does not. It's not in the Bible and I'd doesn't diminish the doctrine at all. See the doctrine is in the Bible. Which is why we believe it. Forget what you call it. Trinity just means 3 in 1. It comes from this verses

1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Mr. Smith, my post about the enemy was not aimed at you. If I aim my post at you, I'll put your name on it or quote you, but most of my posts are general in nature.
The 17th century English was aimed at you for a reason.

Blessings,
Mark


Fair enough

As to 17th century English. I don't speak ancient Hebrew or Kione Greek, but I do speak English. Good thing it's God's job to preserve his word, or else we might get Bibles like the Darby translation and the NIV lol

Psalm 12:6-8 KJV
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [7] Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. [8] The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
No it does not. It's not in the Bible and I'd doesn't diminish the doctrine at all. See the doctrine is in the Bible. Which is why we believe it. Forget what you call it. Trinity just means 3 in 1. It comes from this verses

1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Every verse you mentioned above can be harmonized with the doctrine of election. You have a more difficult time trying to shoehorn the words "elect" and "chosen" into your theology. Try it.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:13 AM

Systematic theology taking place here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Trinity as a word appears nowhere in the Bible, does that diminish the doctrine?


How do you feel about the great councils who hammered out doctrine for 300 years, over a millennia and a half ago?
That must have been something to behold and here we are today, awash in easy believism and individualism based on simplistic salvific premises and prideful proclamation that they don't need nobody but God.

All this cheapens what Christ did for us before, during and after the Cross.
We are made in the image of God and it's not good for us to be alone. For that we thank God and ask him to Shine His Face upon us and help us because we're not very good by ourselves.

Blessings!
Mark
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 03:19 AM

So God telling us that whosoever believeth on Jesus can be saved is the same as only God chooses who is saved? Ok

And no not really I'm your huckleberry, what do you got? Elect is synonymous with servant, and saint depending where you read the scriptures. The saints are the servants of God and obey the gospel. The elect shall inherit the earth. Isaiah 65:9
In the gospel of Mark we see both of these words together in the same verse and they tend to lean to each other as speaking about Jesus and all of those who believe on him. See if you just repent of your unbelief and choose the gospel you won't need to make up doctrines to make you special enough to go to heaven.
You can just repent and believe.

Mark 13:20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus is the chosen of God, all those who believe on him are chosen by inheritance, the elect or saints according to the Bible. These doctrines and words you speak of are elementary.

Wait till we get into the whole Israel church separation ehh, this is where this chosen talk is leading us isn't it. I'm game. Play on Posco
Posted By: mnsota

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 03:29 AM

Wait till we get into the whole Israel church separation ehh, this is where this chosen talk is leading us isn't it. I'm game. Play on Posco

Now were talking,..I'll start and end here!
Posted By: KsTrapper88

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 03:35 AM

Man there is nothing prideful or I’m special about God choosing based on no merit of your own. Abraham was not so holy and righteous that God chose him, he laughed when told he would have a son, Jacob was not a better man than Esau, any born again believer is not inherently a better person because they “chose” God, if they are better or sanctified it is because God chose to show is grace.

“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not a result of works that no man may boast”

I’m not really in this argument but the idea that believing in Gods sovereignty and mans total depravity makes me some privileged “special” or whatever rubs me wrong. I brought nothing to the table besides a need a for a savior and if I’m found among the elect it is only by Gods grace, not by my wisdom to make the right choice, any right choice I’ve made has been Gods grace in me. And as a result of that grace and the Spirit in me I seek to better know my Lord, better serve Him, and better worship Him.
Posted By: Hydropillar

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by KsTrapper88
Man there is nothing prideful or I’m special about God choosing based on no merit of your own. Abraham was not so holy and righteous that God chose him, he laughed when told he would have a son, Jacob was not a better man than Esau, any born again believer is not inherently a better person because they “chose” God, if they are better or sanctified it is because God chose to show is grace.

“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not a result of works that no man may boast”

I’m not really in this argument but the idea that believing in Gods sovereignty and mans total depravity makes me some privileged “special” or whatever rubs me wrong. I brought nothing to the table besides a need a for a savior and if I’m found among the elect it is only by Gods grace, not by my wisdom to make the right choice, any right choice I’ve made has been Gods grace in me. And as a result of that grace and the Spirit in me I seek to better know my Lord, better serve Him, and better worship Him.

that is a very nice testimony thank you!!
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 04:13 AM

And that's just it. God chose his only begotten Son..we just chose to believe on him. There is no special group of gifted Bible scholars that will go to heaven because they learned hermeneutics and interpreted the Bible "properly" lol, every man is on an equal playing field and all deserve the punishment of death and H3||. This is why you must believe that Jesus paid your price and in his resurrection. So the grace of God can be passed down to us by inheritance.

Romans 3:19-24 KJV
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 04:24 AM

Romans 9:10-28, Deut. 7:7-8
Posted By: Posco

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Score Tulips =1 Daises =1

Generous of you to give him the handicap.
Posted By: mnsota

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 04:47 AM

Americas promise,..is it foretold,..sent here and obliged,..will it be enacted on such?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Romans 9:10-28, Deut. 7:7-8


There are interpretive styles on how we read Scripture. Some people read it more literally. Some translations are made by translations attempting to be literal to the original text. Some people read with more symbolism and some translations are hammered out with more symbolism. It can be fruitful and most certainly honoring and worshipful to God when we sit among ourselves as His called people and seek God's Truth in the Logos (Writing).

Verse 11 of that Roman passage is one of very literal meaning, if you read Scripture literally.
"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,"


There are 202 more times kalleo:called is written in the NT and 525X in the entire 66 canonical text Protestants use.
1 Corinthians 1:1; "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,"

1 Corinthians 1:9 "God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

1 Corinthians 1:24 "but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

God's doing the calling is all throughout His Story and some people in history have struggled to believe how this can be absolute because they want to include their human works in the equation. Pelagius was the most notable. His writings on the denial of original sin and his thesis that human action is critical to the mechanism of salvation.... were deemed heretical by convened councils in his time (4th century) and later also. Jacobus Arminius took that similar tack in the late 1500's and early 1600's, taking up some of Pelagius's thesis once again, which was met with staunch theological resistance by peers because Arminius preached and taught that an unregenerate man as well as the regenerate man could feel passionate conviction and desire for salvation with the influence of the Law and the Holy Spirit. Humans once again more so at the wheel of salvation and less so God.

So how much do we do and how much does God do? I suppose there's always been controversy on what people do and what God does, and that won't change until the 2nd Coming.
Me, I'm of the total total depravity camp. I believe I hated God, anything to do with God, any time someone tried to talk about God, this/that/and the other related to God.....
until such time as God alone called by His grace and non of mine.
I had nothing to do with it. I know me and I know how my pride, envy, and all the rest operate.

So that's why I don't fret about God's plan and who's in control. People or God. He gave us the will to do what we want but when He opens our hearts, our list of choices changes. Not before.
I'm Augustinian.... who argued against Pelagius.... that prior to God's calling I thought I was operating with a fully intact list to choose from. The doctrine of human depravity, based on Scripture, tells me my viewfinder didn't have any - not even one - godly choices on it.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by mnsota
Americas promise,..is it foretold,..sent here and obliged,..will it be enacted on such?


What promise are you referring to mnsota?

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Originally Posted by Mark June
The father of all lies believes in God. We can assume the deceiver knows Scripture front to back, so he knows how the story of God ends. So we can assume that his divisive tactics are real and alive but some of us won't play along. At all.

Blessings,
Mark


Wow, from being likened to an Andersonite, then to a Individualist, a Pharisee, then a separatist and now a devil. You guys did all that in 16 pages. Congrats.

You should well know Mark that God never called any angel a son, as he did all those who believe on Jesus. They cannot be saved nor filled with the Holy Spirit. So the straw man arguments, and name calling just further exposes the fact that you have no scripture to prove any of the man-made doctrines you prescribe to. In fact you might as well be a heretic cuz you actually teach this don't you?

Here is what the Bible says about sons, faith, and angels who will never be called as such, in case you made your last statement in error due to ignorance.


John 1:10-14 KJV
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. [11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Notice in verse 12 how AS MANY as received Christ are called sons of God. And it defines received by saying, even to them that believe on his name.

Hebrews 1:3-6 KJV
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? [6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

See God never called the angels sons, because angels cannot be saved. They believe because they know the truth. That's what believing is, you however don't, and seem to hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Remember the term whosoever next time y'all do a Bible study and maybe humble yourself before God and his word and you won't get confounded publicly for being such a heretic. JS


The devil knows of God, I doubt he believes in Him otherwise he would know he loses.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 11:42 AM

Good point HT. I wasn't using the word believe as in "to believe." grin
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 11:49 AM

After catching up a bit I noticed a number of individualism references? Do we each not have our own story? Do we all have the same things in our life that need to change to become who God’s will requires us? Are we one the expressway or is the road narrow with trials and tribulations?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 11:59 AM

Yes HT, and the premise of individualism isn't in any way a discount of the role God plays individually in us.... it's the premise that we determine our walk with God should be done apart and separate from everyone else.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:00 PM

Since we are called to 'make disciples' to 'the ends of the earth' is that task accomplished easier as a group/church or as an individual?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:02 PM

When you say separate from everyone else are you actually meaning “the rules don’t apply to me” separate?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton
Since we are called to 'make disciples' to 'the ends of the earth' is that task accomplished easier as a group/church or as an individual?


The resources of a group is much greater than those of an individual, however, not all people are excited by a group and an individual holds the greater advantage.

God’s gift is a one size fits all but the methods of knitting it are many.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:11 PM

I mean when people champion their own path apart from other followers don't they discount Jesus' departing instructions meant for our good?

"teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

What did Jesus teach them? Scripture says over and over, Love God, Love others.
Jesus sat among sinners. So, so should we. You, me, them, we're all sinners.
It's only a post-modern phenomenon that people are taught that Love God is all there is.
Makes it so easy to hate other people when you claim God is on your side, right?

That's what Individualism speaks to.

Posted By: J Staton

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by J Staton
Since we are called to 'make disciples' to 'the ends of the earth' is that task accomplished easier as a group/church or as an individual?


The resources of a group is much greater than those of an individual, however, not all people are excited by a group and an individual holds the greater advantage.

God’s gift is a one size fits all but the methods of knitting it are many.

Potential candidates for discipleship are believers. If you came to Arkansas to 'make disciples' where would you look to find candidates?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by J Staton
Since we are called to 'make disciples' to 'the ends of the earth' is that task accomplished easier as a group/church or as an individual?


The resources of a group is much greater than those of an individual, however, not all people are excited by a group and an individual holds the greater advantage.

God’s gift is a one size fits all but the methods of knitting it are many.


Paul would have had a tougher time getting around to all the gatherings of the church - the ecclesia - in that 1st century if they weren't all gathered as the Body of Christ in Antioch, Thessaloniki, Ephesus, and all the rest. The ancient church never promoted me and my Jesus, but rather us and our Lord. And we know they gathered as one body, as members, to worship God.
Now-a-days, how did we get to the point of the Body of Christ, gathered as it always has been since Christ Ascended, and what Paul wrote of as being a witness, a testimony to the spiritual powers in the heavens as being me, me, and more me?

The spiritual journey, Scripture speaks of, is one paved with individual sanctification and collaboration with other people of God.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by J Staton
Since we are called to 'make disciples' to 'the ends of the earth' is that task accomplished easier as a group/church or as an individual?


The resources of a group is much greater than those of an individual, however, not all people are excited by a group and an individual holds the greater advantage.

God’s gift is a one size fits all but the methods of knitting it are many.

Originally Posted by J Staton
Potential candidates for discipleship are believers. If you came to Arkansas to 'make disciples' where would you look to find candidates?


Thankfully a Baptist preacher went looking on a street corner where a group of kids were hanging out smoking cigarettes stolen from their parents. lol
Posted By: KsTrapper88

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
And that's just it. God chose his only begotten Son..we just chose to believe on him. There is no special group of gifted Bible scholars that will go to heaven because they learned hermeneutics and interpreted the Bible "properly" lol, every man is on an equal playing field and all deserve the punishment of death and H3||. This is why you must believe that Jesus paid your price and in his resurrection. So the grace of God can be passed down to us by inheritance.

Romans 3:19-24 KJV
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



But even choosing to believe is a work of Gods grace otherwise we could boast in that. God doesn’t have to make us deny him, that is in our very nature, we are sinful, as the Bible says there is none that are righteous not one. However to chose Him, to turn from the flesh that was our master to follow a new one, that is a work of God in us. So I do believe in Gods election, because I know that without it I would still be lost in my pride, and because of it I am humbled daily at the magnitude and majesty of my God.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 05:45 PM

I disagree with believing being a work. Work is something you do and receive payment for on your own merit. Jesus did all the work all we have to do is believe the record that God gave of his Son. The grace we receive in return for believing is something someone else paid for. we can't earn it on our own power so we therefore cannot lose it by our own power.
Posted By: Ken Smith

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 05:50 PM

And I know Jesus used the term work while teaching the gospel in John 6:29 and this was an assurance that there was no actual work a person could do to be saved.

John 6:28-29 KJV
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus was very clear about what he will say to those who trust in any amount of works for salvation

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Smith
No it does not. It's not in the Bible and I'd doesn't diminish the doctrine at all. See the doctrine is in the Bible. Which is why we believe it. Forget what you call it. Trinity just means 3 in 1. It comes from this verses

1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Evidence of the Trinity. Yet, the word Trinity isn't found anywhere in the bible either. Manmade, Triune God.
Posted By: jht

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/16/23 05:54 PM

Thanks Derek, your recent posts are helpful in calling these debates back down to what matters.

Sometimes the intense debate between all of the different -ists, -isms, and -ologies gets disconnected from the realities of life and the meaning or purpose of the story. Yes, organizing doctrine and theology is important and necessary if one is to live out that theology, but we have to be careful not to let our organizational categories distract or detract from the Gospel. Our attempts to make (and follow) all of these neatly defined -ologies are often attempts to make God fit neatly into some human-defined category. God doesn't belong in a philosophical box. Maybe that's why the debates rage on like they do: none of the boxes are adequate. Yes, there is (extreme) danger in following false doctrines. Of course there is. We must adhere to the story of the Bible as our baseline theology and be careful not to get too wrapped up in the -isms and -ologies that have developed as we've tried to work out its meaning. If we aren't living from the ideas presented in John 3:16 and Matthew 22:36-40 (useful as biblical summary statements at the very least), then we probably need to reevaluate. Are we disciples of doctrine or Jesus? Are we making disciples of doctrine or Jesus? Again, I understand the desire to have"right" doctrine and to tell other believers about it. I get it. I'm doing it. But sometimes that desire spreads strife and discord among the Church. Sometimes it's helpful to remember the basics.

Derek, your posts have shown a humble acceptance of God's love, which is given back to Him and spread to others. That's exactly where the Gospel should take us. Thanks.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 01/17/23 12:11 AM

What if I disagree with you jht? The faith has always had great minds working alongside other faithful to seek the magnificent truth of God. Who He is and why we fall in love with Him.
But, the consensus in the secular world, bathed in dichotomy (pick one they say!) as it is, has a different aim. The secular aim mightily at declaring one the winner and the other a loser... but that generates a question of "How did followers of the Way in the ancient church gather together as Luke wrote in Acts 2:42?" and "continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer?". Did they gather to see who had the best exegetical knowledge and could argue best? Did they gather together to declare a scholarly winner of the week? We don't really know, but the historical writings from Church Fathers Polycarp (a disciple of John), Origen, Cyprian, apologists like Justin Martyr, theologians like Augustine, and bishops such as Irenaeus would, all point towards people throughout Christian history gathering together as a body, devoting themselves to the Apostles' teaching and to fellowship.... with multiple focuses. Maybe try to explain the faith to others. Maybe seek God's Truth and apply it in our lives. There are countless reasons doctrines, ologies, and isms were crafted by very faithful followers. We're foolish to discredit or discount them as they have God's majesty written all over them. Literally and figuratively.

What we should do when we discuss our "ologies" and "isms" is realize that Christianity has a deep, rich, divinely orchestrated history and God is that history. Every piece. Every miraculous portion. And in that we realize how small we are and how grand God is... to reveal Himself in His Word and His Son.

So when we "argue" in the theological sense, it's not as the world does. If I disagree with you jht, it doesn't mean I have to be right. It doesn't mean I have to win. It doesn't mean I have to hate you or call you names attempting to manipulate the argument in my favor. That's the world's tact and we have been called from that to the Light.
The "they" is us who believe and have been called by grace through faith in Christ and so we should always "continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer" and relish the opportunity to bounce ideas off one another, pay respect to all those who labored and sacrificed more than we can imagine over the span of 3500 years of biblical narrative, as we seek the Truth of our Lord individually and together as one.

Blessings,
Mark

Posted By: Ohio Wolverine

Re: Mark of the beast comes from the middle east - 02/15/23 12:10 AM

All I ever wanted to point out is this!

https://www.facebook.com/RealBrigitteGabriel/videos/10153990833777581
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