Timber Value

Anyone know how the timber market is currently doing? I am considering doing a selective cut on my property. I have a mixture of red and white oak, tulip poplar, maple, hickory, beech, cherry, and a few walnuts and elm. I got one bid so far with more coming. The bid averaged out to $152.00 a tree based on how many trees he said he would cut. I was told that the woods was last timbered in the late 1950s.

Thanks for any tips or advice.

Walnut trees are big money if they have some size. They're mostly for veneer, my Dad sold 13 walnut trees a year ago for 29K. That was PA.

We just had some parts of the plantation clearcut and they piled the oaks and left them. We’re letting some folks come in and get firewood. Hope it’s better for you up there.

I would be interested in someones knowledge on the current walnut market as well. In the last five years is it currently up?down?steady? Not taking over the thread just of someone chimes in maybe some walnut specifics as well.

I have never seen a mixed batch of trees sold at one price for each like that. Do get another estimate......jk

check your pm's!

B. Walnut, white oak, hard maple, white ash prices are good if you can find a mill or broker that wants them. B. Cherry prices are low and demand is even lower unless top diameters are 16” or larger. Crane Matte log market is strong in my area.

Best to hire a consultant Forester who works for your interest before selling to logging contractor or sawmill.

Get many bids. Determine what diameter cut, what species are being selectively cut, how they will get the trees out, where will the landing be, what will they do afterwards with roads, cutting tops down or not? how will they compensate you for damaged trees, will they bring stone in to repair the roads or improve the roads, do they need to build any bridges? White oak is very strong in our are now. I've seen bids differ by $200,000. Ask how many
loads they estimate being removed. Are they estimating board feet based upon Scribner or what other scale? Some don't count the third log and consider that gravy for them. Others that need to feed their mills get much more aggressive with their offers when they need logs. Also have the money paid upfront prior to any cutting in my opinion. Also how soon do they have to start and finish? If you give them more time it sometimes helps them.

SOOOO much more to it than price...if you want a good, productive job.

MinkGuy touched on some of it, but there's more involved than that, even.

first two questions to ask yourself: what am I trying to accomplish with this timber sale? Am I just mining the current value, or do I care about long term MANAGEMENT?...CRUCIAL questions!

How many acres , how many trees involved !

You really need to know what kind of volume you have. A price per tree means nothing.
I'm not familiar with timber values in your part of the world but I can guarantee you that each species will have a different value in dollars per thousand board feet.

That’s crazy. You could get more than that cutting a tree for firewood!!! Uncle just sold a single walnut tree for almost 6,000

Hire a reputable consultant forester. If you don’t you will regret not doing so. A good consultant will make you enough more money on a timber sale to more than cover his fees. They will also be able to tell you which loggers are reputable and which ones are crooks.

Exactly how are you going to count the number of trees this guy's going to cut down? Your return will be based on someone deciding how many trees were cut, you going to follow the cutters around and keep a tally? You just going to take his word how many he cut?

This might be of help to you. They can likely source you to reliable contacts in your area.

https://walnutcouncil.org/

I've never heard of such a bid around here either

Thanks for all the replys.

He gave me a lump sum price for the trees. I just did the math based on the amount of trees he said he would take and it came to $152.00 a tree. I know the value of each tree and each species of tree varies depending on the size and type of tree. It seemed a bit low to me.

The majority of my trees are red oak, white oak, beech, and tulip poplar. Most of my trees are 20 to 30 inches in diameter.

You are about to get skinned. The type of outfits who skin people will likely not do a thing to prevent destroying the root systems of the trees which you want them to leave with their heavy equipment.
Selective logging is a dying art if not completely dead.
If I had timber and I didn't want it all clearcut, I would choose to have strips of my property clear cut , leaving the rest of my timber unmolested. It is not a perfect plan, but if the alternative is a hot wet mess of damage trees, and low-ball prices, it is better than what these people want to do.
However, looking at it from a loggers perspective, he can't make the same money for the same effort doing a proper selective cutting compared to clear cutting. That may be the cause of the low-ball price which was offered to you.
Keep shopping.

In my area a bid structured like you have is very common. Just a overall price for the whole job.

Listen to OKforester he is spot on. Foresters are worth every penny. We had a small thinning job done on 2 wooodlots. One about 30 acres and the other about 10 acres. I feel like the forester didn't even make good wages for the amount of time he spent cruising the timber and consulting me about his recommendations for the woodlots. Especially since he was a hour and a half drive from us and came out probably 4 times over the course of 3 years before any sale was ever made. He had a considerable time investment in long before he ever got anything out of it.

If you don't use a forester Minkguy has some good advice. However if they start talking about a diameter limit just show them the door. That is a lazy mans way of managing a forest imo. Some trees are of poorer quality and should be cut at smaller diameters to make room for better trees. And nicer trees should often be left to grow and gain value for the next cut. Its a shame to cut a beautiful strait tall timber tree just because it meets the 16 inch diameter limit. Ten years from now it would likely still be a beautiful timber tree but at a 20+ diameter.

you can't hardly give it away around here, hardwood firewood is 80 dollar's a cord delivered.

Randy,,,I sell walnut every 15 yrs. I use the state forester from my county ag dept to assess. I post on fb marketplace and had bidders from as far away as vermont 5 -6 yrs ago. Sold to walnut creek and keim lumber for the best cash prices. Its your wood..u decide..I averaged around 700 a tree. I have very good b.w. in my riverbottom. Small walnut trees near my house i needed cut anyhow sold for 400-600 ea. same as fur...sell to the one who wants it. My ash is gone.

You'll get a different perspective by state, species and even regional locations within the state. In NW Wisconsin, timber prices are depressed and winter contracts that were issued were very limited, a lot of loggers that are sitting on multi-million-dollar investments in equipment and most are spending more time with bankers than in the woods. The emerald ash borer (although it hasn't reached my location yet) is the boogie man for state owned lands and they're leveling it, flooding the market and further depressing prices. If you're a logger that's not diversified into, excavation, trucking or something supplemental- survival will be tough in this marketplace.

Largest hardwood sawmill in MN is about 5 miles from my house. They haven’t really worked since July ! The demand for hardwood lumber is currently weak in this economy. That results in tough grading for what Timber does enter the yard.

Listen to what some of the other have said. Hire a good forester. “Selective cuts” sound great but it typically leads to high grading. Cutting all the good trees and leaving the junk trees and low quality species meaning the future forest will likely be junk. Need to make sure there is good regeneration present before the harvest especially if you want oaks in the future.

Timber prices are lower right now but not too bad. With the right buyer you can get a good price for your oak and yellow poplar right now.

Don’t forget the larger a tree gets the faster the board footage gains each year!

To get a true estimate of what they are paying you it must cover all the different aspects of what work they are doing It needs to go into details of what they are doing and how much they are paying you Anyone giving you a roundabout ballpark number is planning on taking you across And once the trees are down and removed you will not find it easy to get what they told you or they may short change you other aspects of the job . Beware be very aware

If your select cutting , stick with the walnut and whiteoak the rest is trash right now, asking for timber selling advise on the internet is like what would you give me for my good dog ,i been offered 10 bucks , have i been lowballed ?. can you really give me the right way to go. Ill rephrase that your timber is not trash ,just some woods not very sought after right now.

Make sure to get a hard start and finish date, or they will drag it out forever, and specify about not leaving trash behind, or you'll be looking at oil cans for the rest of your life. Do you want them letting all their kith and kin cutting tops for firewood? Speaking for a friend.

Dang some ones math is way off. Yours or his if that's the total.

Location and local market is everything. I have been logging for 35 years and see how the markets and timber values change depending on the demand. I have give hundreds of quotes over the years and have been praised by some cussed out by others because someone told them what they think it is worth. Local saw mills will almost always give you the current price so give them a call so you know for yourself and a good forester will be able to tell you the approximate grade and quantity. I have only sold a couple of semi loads of logs above $4000. Most of the time the oak market is flooded

Jbyrd, how did you come up with your math? I wouldnt know where to start without knowing the species percentage, height, grade, etc.

My math isn't off. One thing I know is math.

He did tell me he would be taking 18 of the bigger beech trees.

I walked up with him for a little bit and then left him to do his thing. He did point out a big quaken asp tree that was choking out a smaller white oak. He said the white oak would really grow once the bigger tree was cut. He seemed to know his business and he came highly recommended.

I told him I was just starting the process and would be getting several bids.

are you looking at long term forest MANAGEMENT, or just liquidating current timber value?

Well lumberjack UNLESS timber is a lot cheaper there than it is here, ANY tree 20-30 in in diameter will be worth lot more than 152 bucks per. Only way average would be that low is a clear cut were half of them are smaller. 20 in and over and mostly red and white oak ?!! Someone is going to make bank and it ain’t the timber owner. He mentioned 30” trees plus not had any cut for 75 plus years

A 30 in tree with 2 16 ft logs will have around 1000 board ft in it
24 in with 2 logs tad over 500. If same tree has 3 about 600
Not to mention half logs .
Get you a biltmore stick plus a tailors tape measure and have at it .
I got a box of 50 timber calculator pocket digest if anyone wants one

Jbyrd, I think that you speak from limited knowledge. I've cut 20-30 inch oak that would barely make pallet lumber, and some the same size that all graded #1 and better. Just depends on the area, and a few miles can make a huge difference in quality. Not knowing anything about the timber quality in that area, and I haven't kept up on timber prices, I would be unable too say if that price is good or not. All of the bids I have been involved with were either a price per cord or per thousand board feet. What it comes to per tree doesn't matter.

That’s is true. Like buying any sight unseen. Just got off the phone with my buddy that has cut timber fir 50 years TODAY price red oak .65 cents board ft
White oak 1.50-2.00 BF

He recommended finding a logger to harvest it and sell to local mill on halves. Then you know what each tree was worth . Loggers that walk in and give you a flat price can low ball you . His recommendation

I can't sleep unless I'm getting at least 10 bids on timber for a client or myself. Even the honest buyers may not need your timber so you can't blame them for not paying the highest price. Out of say 10 buyers you find out who really wants what you have.

the biggest question remains: what are your GOALS for this sale?

what are you hoping to accomplish?

"That’s is true. Like buying any sight unseen. " That was my point......would you pay 152.00 for that quaking aspen, Beech, most Poplar? To come off like you did sight unseen was jumping the gun I would say. MaYbe CH will let us know eventually how far off that bid was.

How many acres/how many trees?

You can get lowballed any way you sale logs.....percentage or not. Its all a gamble to an extent.

ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE way for a landowner to sell timber!

Round here loggers make an absolute mess out of properties. I hope they don't there!

if you have a good contract and the professional knowledge (consulting forester) and teeth (performance bond) to enforce it, your risks are SIGNIFICANTLY lowered!!

We had a Consulting Forester selectively mark and estimate the number of board feet of lumber in each tree he marked. Listed the market value of each species and the total value of board feet for each species. Estimated a fair market value of the standing timber at $94,000. Sent a nine page contract specifying how we expected work to be done, the time frame, and the inventory sheet out to 15 logging companies. Allowed the loggers 3 weeks to inspect the woods if they wanted to do so. Received 10 bids back ranging for $110,000 to $145,000. They winning bid pays 20% when signing the contract and the balance before they move on the property.

We also specified in the contract how we wanted the woods, landings, trails and drives to be taken care of when they were done.

Do it right and you won't be crying later.

I’m in the timber and land business. Like real estate, timber values are local and regional. Some areas grow certain species better than other areas. Here in PA timber markets are way down from two years ago, but a couple species are up slightly from where they were a few months ago, which is nice. Black walnut is almost always a high value species. Like any tree, quality and ease of extraction dictate what the buyers can afford to pay. Definitely solicit bids and make sure you have a written contract that spells out the terms and duties of the buyer.

Still waiting for White Fir to spike. And waiting lol.

A consult may be even more important for the tree planter.
The right mix for the turf.
Trees are cute when little.

GLWH

New here. Been watching the timber/logging posts for a long time. Finally decided to chime in. White Marlin, why the hostility towards logging on percentage? Pretty much every logger I know who is independent cuts on percentages. Bought my Skidder 19 years ago this coming July. Other than the 12-13 DCNR timber jobs my cousin and I bought every job I’ve ever done has been on percentage. Haven’t had a problem with a landowner yet. Haven’t had to look for work in 17 years. All word of mouth. Only cut part time on weekends and holidays when prices are good. Just curious if you had a bad experience?

oh, I can see why loggers like the percentage deal...no real risk on their part. (and this isn't about bashing loggers).

I am talking about from the landowners' perspective/interests. signing up for this type of contract requires absolute/complete trust in the people doing the work and those paying for the product, with very little to zero recourse.

The landowner is trusting the logger to tell him how many mbf's he cut/sold, what the quality of the logs are, how much the logger was paid by the mill, etc. etc.

some mills have better markets for some products than others...should the landowner be penalized with a lower check because that particular mill's market isn't the best?

an imperfect analogy: how about you sign over the title to that used Tacoma you have. I know a guy who's looking to buy one. And when I sell it, I'll give you half of the money I get for it. After all, I'll have some money in this too (transporting the truck to new buyer, new title work, etc.). I think you'll be happy. well, no...once you sign the title over to me, you'll have no say in the sale price. how about it?

just some of the reasons...

and that's just on the timber SALE end. if you're talking about long term forest MANAGEMENT, that gets into a whole nother aspect ...

Scaled/graded logs for a company after I got out of forestry school. Some loggers would ask for blank log slips but was company policy to not give out blank slips. Some loggers would change the log slips to show more softwood vs. hardwood. Percentage was 33% on hemlock/white pine and 50% on hardwood logs. Not the best way to sell timber.

Your analogy is crazy !!! Sign it over.
You do know the timber guys will sell it where they get the best price. 50% means more for them if they sell it for the highest price. There is a "bill of sale" for each log sold that any mill worth a hoot will provide . How do you think they know how much to pay both parties.You ever follow behind a load of logs? You see that bar code stapled to the end of each one. Well around here anyway.

my analogy isn't perfect, but it's not THAT far off...you've given the logger the right to cut and haul your trees, with no idea what you just sold them for. (he'll let you know later)

once the tree is cut and gone, you don't get a "do-over" or a "no-sale".

wouldn't it be better to KNOW what you're selling and for what price BEFORE the tree is severed from its roots and gone?

You can always have the buyers come out to the landing to quote a price,....... but you better have room to lay them out.

it's still [essentially] too late to "no sale" them; after they're at the landing.

if you've got buyers coming to the site anyway, how about they cruise the timber on the stump and submit their bids BEFORE they get a contract?

Your 100 % correct about once the logs leave the yard. I sell all my logs based on what buyer has the best prices at the time. First I sort out all the veneer possibilities and Danzer Veneer from reach road in Williamsport has a buyer that comes to the landing and picks out what he wants. Some days it’s 20 logs, some days it’s 2. 100 dollars more for the log gives me 35 bucks and the landowner 65. When cutting hard maple if it’s not good enough for veneer. Leather stocking out of New York will buy a lot of the good stuff on the landing for baseball bats. 60 to 80 cents better than a prime log price. Wagner lumber, Dwight Lewis and Two rivers is who I sell most of my logs too. They bring a truck with them and buy all the logs off the landing. They write me a separate check and the landowner a separate check on the spot. Don’t have to worry about w9 or 1099 with the landowner. I have the landowner on-site everytime I sell. If they don’t like the price or scale they can refuse to sell it and we can have someone else come. All 3 of these companies will print out a sheet showing every log, every species, how many board feet per log, price per log and average. My Skidder hasn’t ran in 14 months right now because timber prices are half what they were a year or 2 ago.

Most loggers are honest in their business dealings. A few are not. Down here it was once a common thing to pocket what they called a "stow load". This is where a load is hauled to a different mill and the landowner never knows about it. This isn't considered stealing, it just pays for equipment is their mentality.

Also, there have been cases of the loggers cutting a tract of their own timber at the same time that they are cutting yours. The mill will take their word for which tract it came from. Proving where a load came from later is extremely difficult.

Also, the loggers can sort poorly and put some higher value products on a lower value load and cost the landowner alot of money while theiy got an extra load out this week.

Or, a stand of timber can be high-graded and your future growth sold today for pennies on the dollar.

All these scenarios have happened. The first two are illegal, the second two are perfectly legal and happen every day.

My point was that the owner could get bids before they leave his property where any shady stuff could happen.Im not sure Im smelling what your stepping in? I dont care how a guy sells it, just saying that is an option.

I understood your point, and I'm not insinuating anything...other than once they're cut, you don't have a realistic option to NOT sell them to someone.

if bids are received for standing timber, the landowner knows the amount BEFORE the trees hit the duff and the logs are gone. they can make a better decision on whether or not to go through with the sale.

I agree, there are many other things that can go wrong doing it that way. I always paid cash up front. The last job I did was basically a salvage operation and I didnt want to tie up a penny on it. So I offered the landowner a percentage deal. Didnt have many people look at the pile, and was rather happy with the price paid.

Reading all this makes me so glad I bid on and buy federal and state timber sales. I pay per cord, not per tree.
Shouldn't be too hard to visit previous cuts and speak to landowners of some of the loggers you consider, ask for references.

we're discussing eastern hardwoods...different ballgame from what you're talking about.

species, size, form/quality and mbf's are what counts here. factor in difficulty of getting product to the mill, residual stand composition and spacing.

lot of variables to understand and consider, if you want to do it right.

of course, if your only concern is getting the most money out of your woodlot, that's pretty easy.

Another reason to hire a consulting forester is to help you not get screwed by the IRS. You must use a registered forester to establish a timber basis to depreciate from when you sell. If you don't then you will pay ordinary income tax rate on the proceeds. Your forester's fees are also deductible.

Agree with a lot you say white marlin. A lot of people have now idea what form class is. A 24 inch cherry with 3- 16 foot logs doesn’t have the same footage as a 24 in white oak with 3 16 foot logs just do to the taper in the tree. My uncle was a forester for DCNR out of tioga county for a little over 20 years. Wealth of knowledge. Talk to him whenever I have a problem I need help with. I like listening to you talk about forest management. Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of cutting a DCNR removal job will appreciate what good management does. My only complaint about a forester is everything with board footage is an absolute guess into how much footage is in a tree. The only way to get the exact footage is scaling the log after it has been bucked. With that being said most people bidding on the jobs don’t go by the foresters numbers. They scale it themselves.

It's interesting how the specifications of merchantable logs varies around the Country.
On the coast of the Pacific northwest, the standard conifer log length is 40 feet plus 10 inch of trim.
The ideal length is 40 feet, however, the average length in any truck load is usually specified as 37 feet. The minimum length is usually set at 26 feet. This allows the seller to maximize the best qualities of a particular log.
The logs may be cut in one foot multiples between 26 and 40 feet.

There are usually price breaks at 30+ inches, 24+ inches, 12+ inches, 8+ inches, and 5+ inches. The 30 and 24 inch log are generally rather uncommon nowadays, and can be more difficult to sell due to new milling practices.

Another thing that no one has mentioned regarding selling stumpage vs shares is taxes. If cut logs are sold on shares legally the entire income from the sale is supposed to be claimed as ordinary income on your income taxes. But if the sale is done as a standing timber sale you are able to claim it as capital gains income. Depending on the size of the sale and your tax bracket this can make a huge difference in your tax liability.

Why is it done like this? I don't know, it makes no sense but thats the IRS for you.

Depends on what part of the country you are in. I remember when I was a kid, what southern yellow pine brought. Today, it’s only a fraction, and so many timber companies own so much land in the South, that they control the market. Same thing applies to hardwood, it just doesn’t bring what hardwood does just a “little” farther North.

JJR,

shoot me a pm.

I buy and sell land and timber in central PA, and I have done all of the scenarios above. I own a parcel in Clinton County that is mostly steep. I was happy to find an Amish logger who is doing a 50/50 with me on it, because it is a dangerous and difficult job. It also has about 500,000 bf of nice hemlock, which the Amish buy up nonstop. It is a difficult tree to log because it involves so much limbing. In general, 50/50 is not a great deal for the landowner, better to sell hardwoods on stumpage to highest bidder. Anyhow, this is a good discussion.

White Marlin, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Coaching the High School wrestling team in Chambersburg past 2 days. Didn’t get home till late last night. I’m new on here. How do you PM? Thanks

Stumpage is the delivered value of timber less the logging and transportation costs. It doesn't matter how you get paid. Finding a tax preparer that understands timber taxation is very important(and actually hard to find).
At a bare minimum you will need a timber cruise by a registered forester to establish your timber basis dated back to the last ownership change of entity. Then you get to deduct any operation cost directly related to growth of the timber(burning, herbicide applications, forester fees, ect.). Then you only pay capital gains on the growth above the basis.

next to your name is a picture of an envelope. but you have to set your preferences to accept them.

click on your name to set your preferences for the website.

We started the year at $80 but it's dropped, based on the warm winter & apparent surplus of firewood from last years storms.

Mill closure(s) have hurt our timber value