Sick of New York's DEC

In New York's Catskills and Adirondacks there are very large areas protected from development by an act creating the "Forest Preserve".There is agency knnwn as the Adirondack Park Agency
which controls decisions controling the park, and the park is administered by the NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation. Different sections have different classifications, such as "wilderness" or "Wild Forest". The wilderness areas are so restricted that all motorized vehicles are prohibited, seaplanes have been prohibited,and you can not cut dead or down trees.The regulations
are dominated by environmentalist organizations.Access to these large areas is only on foot.
My resentment is that existing structures are burned to the ground when the property is acquired and existing roads are closed. Things that could be utilizes are prohibited.
Last year the state acquired lands formerly leased by a hunting club which I had permission to trap.There are existing dirt roads and sections were heavily logged years ago.Soon after the state got the land signs went up prohibiting motor vehicle use. The area is wild forest, not wilderness..Old people like myself, and disabled folks are now restricted in enjoying these lands.
I trap fisher and beaver on these lands now I will have to greatly cut back because I will have to walk, all because of a bunch of nonsense.
While I'm on the subject of NYSDEC, my opinion is that they are all a bunch of people watching their butts to protect their jobs.For years I tried to work with them, now I don't care. Biologists that can't get seasons straight, and will not compromise.Look at the otter restoration and the secret deals made. Season still open in western New York. I could go on and on.
By the way I used to work for DEC so I know how they operate.

I meant to say the otter season is still NOT open because of secret drals made by NYSDEC

And not opening goose season till a week after duck has opened sucks too.

The same thing is happening to Wildlife Management areas over here in Region #6, AL.

The closing down of long time, traditional access points close to the water
for the hand launching of small, non-motorized boats & canoes for trapping.

DEC wants to make sure it takes a 200 to 300 yard drag through the brush
to get your trapping vessel & gear to the water.

That's fine if you are young & strong, & 20 years old but if you are
old & handicapped with a bad heart you are shut out from accessing the resource.

You would think DEC is in violation of the "Americans with disabilities ACT"
for this wholesale restriction of reasonable access for seniors & handicapped trappers.

w

Maybe it might change when the Gov. CHANGES but your loss because it's NY AND THE CITY C ONTROLS the state.

Will not change , if anything it will get even worse. What really torques me is, the DEC keeps stocking trout in remote lakes and ponds in wilderness areas, like the West Canada Lakes, 5 ponds, wildernesses. And since float plane access is prohibited and hiking distances to many of theses lakes can be upwards to 10 miles one way, many of these lakes and ponds receive little if any fishing pressure. And even if you are physically fit , or dumb enough to hike 20 miles for a brook trout, if you do not have a boat or canoe to fish these bodies of water, you will have little success.

I’ve argued for years , why cannot there be a 1 hub lake in these vast wildernesses to allow float plane access for fisherman, hunters , campers, hikers whatever and spike camp from there ? Example , West Lake in the West Canada Lakes Wilderness, that would put anyone in the middle of a series of lakes and ponds.

You aren't suppose to fight Forrest fires in these parks either.

I am surprised you didn’t t mention the ridiculous dates for the fisher season in the Adirondacks …. My cabin is just inside the blue line for the Adirondack park so i am well aware of the stupid laws … I have seen these trails closed to atv’s as well and it’s a shame to see these beautiful areas inaccessible ….

Perry much the same out here in the west. They DO NOT fight the fires they manage them in the name of firefighter safety. Close roads and allow them to become overgrown instead of keeping them open and cleared as firebreaks. We East and West now have a bunch of book smart idiots managing our forest state and federal

What about the otter management plan in the Catskills......20+ years in the making and still going strong!

64 years hunting fishing and trapping in NY. Retirement in 15 months and I'm leaving. NYS gets worse and worse, death by a 1000 pin pricks.
It's too bad, upstate was a nice place to enjoy the outdoors. Between taxes, political climate, restricted rights and catering to the illegals I've had enough.
I'm taking my hard earned pension and all my disposable income elsewhere. No wonder to me the population of NY is going down.

I'm staying and fighting them tooth and nail till I die. Too much good hunting fishing and trapping to just cede over to the antis.
I'm trying to turn as many kids on to the outdoor life as I can. Teach, preach and educate. Give of oneself to turn the tide.

I feel sorry for you guys when I hear that.
There are a few provincial parks that have some restrictions here but most do not restrict trappers.

I have argued for years that the Adirondack fisher season is too early. I was one of the trappers that had to alert DEC of the decline in fisher, they were too busy radio collaring pine marten, a species that is increasing. So how did they react? By shortening the season, but on the wrong end!!!.No concern for setting the season would be best to harvest this renewable resource.
Then they opened a very short season in the state's southern tier counties, but in October!Long gone are biologists like Gary Parsons and Mark Brown that properly managed fisher.
DEC completely ignored their own St.Lawrence County study that showed a later fisher season had no negative affect upon the population.
They did a reintroduction program of otters into western New York with otters trapped in the adirondacks and catskills. In the catskills they closed the very areas where some of the reintroduction otters came from. Why? Because of the recommendations of a long gone biologist that did not know squat. They had very strict regs for the cages used to catch the otters, but then took them to Cornell and fed them chemically contaminated Lake Ontario salmon. BRILLIANT ! The release was well over twenty years ago and there are now otters every where in western New York, but still no open season in the Catskills or restocked areas>. WHY? Because of SECRET DEALS with finanical contributors!
DEC refuses repeatedly to take advice of trappers wildlife observations. They know it all. I know of one, possibly two biologist that actually trap, the rest are desk jockeys.I could go on and on.

Al ,thanks for the post , they are very welcome heads up on how the DEC works . I am in total agreement on the season dates in WNY they are way to early and not long enough.

Fisher Man, I agree hunters, trappers, fishers, foresters, etc., with boots on the ground and years of observation data mean little to today’s DEC biologists. I had a long phone conversation with a dec biologist about changing a boundary of a wildlife management zone, because of regulations and season length conflicts in a known deer wintering yard. He told me using, bureaucratic mumbo jumbo that it was all but impossible.

And don't think for a minute that the automobile insurance companies don't have a say in how many Doe tags are handed out.

The release was well over twenty years ago and there are now otters every where in western New York, but still no open season in the Catskills or restocked areas>. WHY? Because of SECRET DEALS with finanical contributors!
Al, not that the Kennedy compound in Lew Beach in the Catskills would have any bearing!!!

No otter season areas is why the 330s have to be modified for beaver trapping.

And DEC had people sneaking around to see if trappers complied.

I trap in st Lawrence county and there is no shortage of fishers here … u r rite about the season length and dates what a joke to catch fur that’s not prime …. The whole deal with filling out a log to trap fisher was to much, I complied for a couple years then stopped trapping them ….

For a long time I have enjoyed an annual solo wilderness hunt in the ADKs. Shot my biggest bear there and my heaviest buck. Six miles from my truck. No one else around, it is really special. Harder and harder to find remote places that don't have ATVs and dirt bikes all over them, people all over them, loose dogs running wild all over them, and I really appreciate the ADKs. I am close with a ranger there, and I know they can be tough sometimes, but I have also seen him be lenient with people who deserved the huge fine they were facing. The ADKs are a beautiful and special place in a beautiful state. Now, I would not want to live in New York State. What a freak show. And I am amazed at how many Ds vote in Upstate.
One correction Fisher Man: You can cut up all the downed and dead wood you want on wilderness and wild forest lands, for your own use right there. At your camp site. Not for firewood at your home a mile down the road. You have to get a permit for cutting firewood on state forest lands, and in my experience that permit process is pretty strange. But that is a screwy function of the state DEC, which as you say is dominated by Albany, which is dominated by downstaters and real flatlanders with no connection to the resource they want to control.

A friend works for a utility line clearing company. They were cutting trees in ADK near the power line and an 80-year-old guy was taking some of the wood. A DEC forest ranger stopped and made the guy unload the wood and gave him a ticket. A normal person would say take what you have but if you come back, I have to give you a ticket.

I'll be the odd man out and say I appreciate the DEC stocking fish and game in areas without easy access, motor vehicles. Like someone mentioned, it's so nice to go to an area without people walking dogs, noise from motor vehicles, fishing line and garbage all over the place.

How are we to leave unmolested land to our children and grandchildren if we continue to molest every tract of land out there!

As far as fisher and otter go, I can trap unlimited numbers of both. Sure, it took quite a while from the time they restocked otter until we were allowed to do so down here but because we left them alone long enough for them to mutliply we are allowed to do so..I agree, the fisher season could use some changes.

They can't please everyone.

I agree I do not want the forest preserve trashed, but why are taxpayers paying to stock fish, in lakes no one fishes ?

Try being a commercial fisherman here, petty rules and they won't listen to guys that have been on the "ground" all their lives...most seem to be overeducated green types. Even a lot of the CO's are disgusted, at least the older ones...

You should try living in my part of WNY. I still can't trap fisher or otter and probably never will. We have also left them to multiply and still no season!

I too don't want the forest preserve trashed. I'm darn glad that it is there, but I wish that it would be managed with common sense instead of overboard environmental ideas. For instance, the forest is over mature. I believe that controlled logging supervised by professional foresters should take place to maintain a healthy forest and provide a healthy habitat. for wildlife. Think of the money that could be generated for the state. Also I think the public should be allowed to harvest firewood that is dead and down.To just let it rot makes no sense.
I don't like classifying some areas as wilderness, but denying access to many.of the public, particulary the aged and disabled is wrong..Denying access via float plane to many of the remote lakes and ponds simply so that you can't hear them is nonsense also.I believe that existing infra structure should be left alone instead of burning buildings and closing existing roads. I do appreciate stocking remote ponds.I think there should be zoning on private lands within the preserve, but I do not think permission needs for every project from the Adirondack Park Agency:just another government beauracracy.. It appears to me that over regulations are aimed at natives of the park are slowly being forced out. And finally I think there is a need for more
scientific sound hunting,fishing, and trapping regulations. Just my beliefs.

Unfragmented, contiguous, over mature, climax forest is considered
the best habitat for American Marten within the ADK Forest Preserve.

Best way to negatively impact ADK Marten populations is too much,
or ANY logging,in the wrong place.

Now if you want to increase the Fisher populations in the ADK's,
well then, log baby log, to create that forest transitional habitat fisher utilize.

w

Walleyed, I’m not sure what you say about logging having negative effects on Marten is always true. I know of NY Marten trappers who limit out each fall on the North Lake conservation easement property in Herkimer County that has been heavily logged for decades.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule.

As long as the logged forested areas are not fragmented,
too much overhead cover is not eliminated, & habitat
disturbance associated with logging is kept to a minimum,
healthy marten populations & tightly controlled timber
harvesting are still possible.

w

Fisher Man, Amphibians and some reptiles, like salamanders and Ring-Necked snakes, need those fallen rotten trees for the damp cover they provide and the insects they eat.

Squash, I don't have children but I pay school taxes.

Turtledale, that sucks and I don't know what to tell ya other than they can't please everyone. lol

[quote=beachcomber13]Fisher Man, Amphibians and some reptiles, like salamanders and Ring-Necked snakes, need those fallen rotten trees for the damp cover they provide and the insects they eat.

Squash, I don't have children but I pay school tax..

Your comparison if ludicrous, but do you not care if your school taxes are spent wisely ?

Check first of course. Will an electric bike work I’m sure snow might end the ability at some point. But on federal and state lands here in Ky a e bike under 1000 watts is considered non motorized

I asked a NYS ECO (game warden) about the legality of E-bikes
on state land after I had some non-hunting joyriders interrupt
my fall turkey setup and spook incoming birds
at the moment of truth by riding through my
decoy spread this past October.

This took place on a gated NYS DEC Wildlife Management Area
posted against motorized vehicle use by sign & notice.

The warden said he didn't know the rules for sure because
upper level management of Law enforcement had not yet
formulated a policy yet so they were ignoring the issue.

But, he said: Technically their use on WMA's was illegal.

walleyed

Things can't be that bad for you or you would be gone!

Who me ?

Not so bad that I would move out of upstate New York.

If I was going to flee N.Y. state, It would have been in
1985 thru 1990 soon after spending five (5) summers
in Bristol Bay, Alaska.

I already had a productive & successful fishing business
in Oswego & Jefferson counties so no reason to leave
here to start all over again in Alaska.

Things are starting to unravel now with total Democrat control
of the NYS senate & assembly plus Governor Kathy Hochul
running rampant over our constitution.

I just keep repeating over & over: "I (we) will not comply " !!!

walleyed

I live on the border of an open otter WMU. Plenty of otter around but unable to trap where I am. I have turned over multiple incedental catches. I try to always be cooperative in hopes of one day having an open season. Instead my cooperation normally leads to a visit of my trap site to make sure I am playing by the rules. If they were really interested in recieving accurate numbers for studies a better approach in my opinion would be putting 1 or 2 tag limit in place in closed WMUs where population densities are in question or being researched. I just wonder how many incedental catches actually make their way to the state and what numbers are actually recorded. Trying to do the right thing should not get a target on your back. I play by the rules but in trying to show the most respect to the animal, I could see where ones own moral compass might make one think twice before handing over fur to be "studied" by the state.

When Ward Stone was still working fur was put in freezer at 5 Rivers and later dumped in a dumpster when they ran out of room.

When our fisher population started to rise in the 90's,trappers started catching them in marten sets.We did have a quota that was line specific,and any over quota had to be reported and turned in.
Our local fur council approached out local fur tech and requested a trapper led study on incidental fisher catches.We came to an agreement with the district manager and the fur tech that trappers would be allowed to keep and sell any fisher over quota if they submitted the skulls for aging and sexing.All trappers in the district agreed.The trappers council put in some money to have the teeth sent out for aging and volunteer trappers with the council worked with the fur tech to boil the skulls and take teeth to be sent out for aging of each individual incidental fisher.
When the information came back we documented everthing and it was easy to see that the ratio of juvenile dispersing fisher to adult resident fisher caught as incidentals in marten sets was 9 to one.
This indicated no threat to the resident fisher population so the fur tech woukd adjust quotas as necessary and any incidentals over the new quotas were OK'd by the district manager to be kept and sold by the trappers in the district.

It is very important for your local trappers council to have a good working relationship with the MNR fur techs and district managers in order to be able to address proper fur management and move one way or the other to either protect the resource from overharvest or to not waste a harvestable resource by un necessary restrictions that are no longer required.

When all the trapping biologists retired from DEC, we have no advocates for our cause. Try having a discussion with the people there now and your head spins. They all have the attitude that no one should make money from natural resources but the state.

Gordon Batcheller warned us about these new biologists coming out of colleges, educated with liberal ideas from their professors.I understand that there is one biologist that dominates the DEC fur team.

Marty Mountain Man loved burns then the grass then the lemmings voles which brought in the marten.Id really like to catch a marten someday. In the last decade the state lands have had much work done to them in strips. In my opinion the fisher expansion has peaked , maple producers will wipe out the fisher, and then we will have marten.

Why do maple producers want to wipe out fisher populations?

I would think maple producers would want more fisher, eating red squirrels that chew on their sap lines. Lol

Move here to Montana. Problem solved.

“Moving to Montana soon, going to be a dental floss tycoon.” Frank Zappa.