Old Religions

…. Why did white Europeans abandon their religions for Christianity ? …. I heard it was mandated by Rome

… what say you fine people of trapperman ?

Christianity is a more useful.religion for controlling people with, than the older ones. It was adopted by the elite to control the masses. The whole render unto Caeser and you will receive a great afterlife, for suffering in this life, makes for a docile population.

Keith

… some say it has made us weak

… Stonewall Jackson excluded of course

Are speaking of Constantines religion?

… Constantine converted … Europe conquered the world under their own religions then converted to the religion of semetics … curious why

… Kieth had a good explanation

"In hoc signo vinces"

Doesn't seem very docile.

Christianity domesticated white people. Whites are now overly domesticated and face not so gradual absorption and slow extinction. Western values are great only when there's no one to use your values against them. Being open and accepting is destroying Western countries and culture. There's likely to be a great amount of killing in Europe and Canada soon, if white men wake up. Britain, Ireland, the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Italy and Greece are soon very likely going to explode in horrific violence. That's the only thing that can save their cultures and people.

Keith

And 330 says I'm the most negative person on here!

Constantine has been dead for 1689 years. Christians stopped conquering long ago under the cross. Now Christians take care of their enemies, at the expense of their people, making their enemies stronger and more fertile, at the expense of their own people's fertility.

Keith

These are some of the dumbest comments I've read since joining Tman . And, I've been here a minute .

We're all God's people. I don't think He cares what the color of our skin is.

White people have few to no kids now Angela, as you well know. Our population is declining. People of other races, who accept our culture, have declining populations too. Western culture is fading.

Islam is a real danger. Islamists take advantage of our values and use them against us to move into our countries. We stupidly tax our people to give them the resources to make more of them.

Keith

X 2

Our enemies are from non compatible cultures, such as Islam. A great many islamists are obviously white. Culture is more important than race. There are strong racial alignments to culture though.

I share much more similar values with a black Christian than a white Islamist, even though I'm not a Christian or black.

Keith

THAT'S your "understanding" of Christianity??

Truth !

That's what made Christianity a useful tool for controlling people. There's obviously much more to it. As religions go, I think Christianity is a pretty good one.

Keith

Boy do I feel stupid, I thought you were talking about Israel when you said Christians were taking care of our enemies.

Never fails especially when wearing a hat as well.

I knew Texas had Mexcans but I didn't figure there were any Vikings in them parts.

… even Irish had religion prior to Christianity

.. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism as is Islam

… just curious why my ancestors abandoned their own religions for a foreign one is all

… next question would be … are my ancestors prior to exposure burning for eternity?

There is "Christianity", and there is following Jesus Christ. I think many of you are confusing the two.

… what does following Jesus mean to you Mr waggler ?

I think they're fine. Even you have a small chance.

Sval,
Judaism come about some 600 to 700 years after ishmael was born.
But they both definitely derive from Abraham. Shemite.
That is one thing that makes me shake my head about the whole antisemitic nonsense.
Rome was already in a decline when Constantine converted to Christianity.
It's interesting because this conversion made Christianity the same thing Jesus came to condemn.
Using the Lords name in vain and making his house a den of thieves.
A church state. The reason it became so popular to the peagon religions is because they saw peace.
Atliest for a short time. Not really any different than. The many many wolves in sheep's clothing we have in powerful positions in the church and state today. I'm glad we have freedom of religion in our country.
Atliest we know where others stand. I'm glad you brought this up.

I'm interested in this also. And I'm in agreement with waggler on this.

Acording to my understanding. No more than any other person that has ever lived. Christ is the beginning and the end. The advantage of not knowing of Chist or the law is the law was on there hearts. God is a just God and when judgment day arrives every eye shall see him.now will he know you.
That is the big question.

Is God a just God?

I am 44 years old, and through those years have met thousands of people, talked one-on-one with hundreds... and in the end settled on just 4 people that I trust (not counting immediate family like parents).

None of them are devout Christians. Two of them believe in God...kinda... I think.... maybe. One of them may even go to church on occasion.

But all of them... are the best people, out of literal thousands that this world has to offer.

But, y'all are saying that if they don't repent of their sins and give their lives to Christ, they will perish in "hades". That the best people I have ever met are doomed to eternal hellfire because they never felt the need to call on a savior and dedicate their lives to him?

Is that just?

If heaven is filled with people like y 'all and NOT them.... I don't think I wanna go.

I truly believe in Jesus Christ. I believe He died for our sins. Now, when I stub my toe, am I going to drop an F bomb? You can bet your arse I will. I have many flaws. Too many, including myself complicate the Good Book. All you have to do is Believe in Christ, TRULY. I'ts a personal relationship between yourself and Christ. Not every other member of the denomination.
I also believe the Holy wars are still being fought. Too many WASP's in the middle east fighting for the last century over the Holy Land.

God created all so I would guess it would be up to Him, not us, to define what is and isn't just. I may not always agree with His idea of justice but I still believe He is right in the end.

Maybe they realized there is only one true God.

Christianity was the only thing strong enough to bind tribal Europeans into a force that could repel Islam.

No one in the early 1900s would of said Christianity has made Europeans weak so what has changed from the early 1900s to now? Government, we adopted democracy and let everyone with a pulse have a say, that in my opinion is where most of the problems lie.

Think you are kinda missing the point. No one gets to heaven by being good.

Johnny Cash supposedly said that anyone who sincerely searches for truth ends up with Jesus. I see a lot of people today still settling for the old pagan religions, praying to the universe or whatever. It just seems like a poor place to settle when God is so much more. I don't need a religion that tells me I'm ok in myself because I can't find hope in my own strength. I'm just dust. What we need is salvation from ourselves.

I'd say your lucky to have good friends that you trust. I would gues your friends are loving and have integrity.
If your friends are loving and trust worthy, more than likely they listen to there conscience and are not hypocrites.
God is Just. Being loving, trustworthy and a good friend is very Christ like. Many don't believe because of hypocrites. Spirituality is a complicated thing. I see the love of God in peaple that say they don't believe also.
And I see hypocrites in many that proclaim to be Christian.

The way most religions work is……”Kill em all and let “god” sort em out”

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3 - 9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,


So though some may say they only know 4 good people - scripture tells us no one does good......does this mean we can't do good things, no, this means all are sinners and need redeemed. Of which, Jesus Christ paid the price. Pride will keep many from redemption.

I'm curious, what dous black and white have to do with shared values.

Is your head under your pillow?

When you go to the “bad” part of a city, what color are the people who live there?

FWIW I judge people by their character. I am not blind though. There is a culture of criminals in our society. About half are people who make up 12 percent of the population.

I agree.

I think you know enough about the Bible to know what it says about this. No matter how good we are on this Earth we can't make our own way to heaven. The best people you know are sinners, we all are, it's human sin nature.

We only get to Heaven because Jesus died for our sins. That's it, that's the gift. If a person lives their whole life aware of that gift and chooses not to accept it then yes, I don't believe they will make it to heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Yes, because religion by today's standard is very cultish.
Man tries to make God in his own image, then the Coolaid parties begin.

Truth can be found if one seeks it. Just like trapping, the best way to find sign is go look for it yourself, not on the internet.

As far as hypocrites, how many on here "know" what it takes to be a great parent or great spouse but fall short, then call a Christian a hypocrite when they fall short....???

Unless you have followed ur moral compas perfectly your whole life its probably the pot calling the kettle black if u call a Christian a hypocrite who failed. Like every group of people there's the good and the bad so to speak

Romans 2:14

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:”

I take the above verse to mean that if a person has never heard of Jesus (maybe no radio or tv on a remote island) then they will be judged by whether they have lived in harmony with the things of God.
I had a guy to tell me that its my job to see that everyone had heard of Jesus or they will go to the bad place. So I guess its my fault since I never witnessed to that person.
To think that a person would go to the bad place because he had never heard the gospel and thus couldn't accept it for lack of knowledge, seems far fetched and would make God unjust, since they had never heard the gospel ?

I'm thinking its more danger to be in a high spot in the congregation and having the lack of knowledge would fulfill "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

I am as a big a hypocrite as any human. I just don’t think a perfect parent would set one of their kids on fire. I don’t believe stories from ancient tribesmen of a worldwide flood, people turning into salt, getting ate by a giant fish and living in it for three days.

I've asked that question to many different preachers and priests. Not one can answer it.
" I created you to worship me or burn in a place 7 times hotter than fire for eternity" or something to that effect.
All they said was to just believe, and to that I say...."get bent"
I'm religious.....to a certain extent, but I won't go around collecting believers and donations with that friggin line.

I dont understand the power and technology that let's someone on the other side of the world talk to me in real time but that doesn't mean its not real

I am not a preacher.

but as *I* understand it...

God is Holy. He is Light.

Darkness and Light cannot exist in the same place and time.

He created us in a Holy state, but gave us Free Will. We chose to embrace Darkness.

From that point on, we lived in Darkness.

Blood sacrifices (animals) paid our debt (until we sinned again); before Jesus died on the cross.

But He loved us enough to provide a Permanent "Fix" for our sinful nature...the blood of a PERFECT Sacrifice, His son, Jesus Christ.

What religion did your ancestors abandon?

Shakey,
I don't believe in eternal torment.
At least not in the form of burning for ever.

Trapper7 …I’m of French Irish ancestry so they would have practiced paganism

And what does paganism believe?

Multiple gods

O my gosh, an Irish Freshman. That explains alot.

What is the source of their information?

I've seen Savell's pedigree. Savell's ancestors practiced what we now call Druidism and Norse Paganism. Likely everyone of us on this forum had ancestors that practiced those religions.

Savelll's namesake ancestors were of French and Viking stock that ended up in England during the Norman Conquest in 1066.

Keith

Imagine it would have been faith based

Celtic Gods and Goddesses, both the Irish and the French

Danny, right wrong or indifferent, there are other more modern accounts of people being swallowed and surviving in a whale. Not saying they are accurate, but they exist.

Im guessing if one started comparing evidence supporting each believe one might come out ahead.

If you haven't read it, read John chapter 3. Go to the source.
All our life emanates from God through Christ (mortal & immortal; temporal & eternal). If we seek it any other way, the results will be disappointing.
When people seek eternal life or peace through any other means than Jesus Christ it is for the same reason people have rejected him for thousands of years: because their deeds and motivations are evil and they don't want to give them up. It's as simple as that. People prefer darkness rather than light. When the light comes, the deeds & desires are exposed and that makes them uncomfortable. It is much easier to be pretty in the dark, whether that is the reality, a wish or just a story people tell themselves to appease their conscious.
Jesus was killed in part by people who preferred a life of registerable good deeds-"look what I have done" as well as those who sought to pacify God. What would a person pacify God with? A handout to someone in need? An offering of money or other valuables? A slaughtered calf?
Helping someone is needful, useful, and commanded but doesn't do anything about our sin problem.
Riches have so little value to God that He paved Heaven with gold.
The death of an innocent animal cannot atone for the misdeeds of a human, the ultimate earthly creation.
What God seeks is an eternal relationship with each, individual person. It existed in the beginning, but sin destroyed it (realize how few commandments existed when Adam & Eve chose a lie over life). This relationship can only be achieved through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY door.
Not sure exactly what you're looking for in this life, but if you're looking for eternal life then Jesus is the only way.
Christians go to heaven.

I still wonder how did they come up with this stuff? Was it passed down to them by someone who saw it in a dream?

That's what happened with Islam. The Jews and the non-Jews got along just fine until Mohammad came along around 1,000AD. He claimed he was told in a dream by a jinn that the Jews account of the birthright of Abraham was a lie. That the birthright was given to the descendants of Ishmael, not Isaac. That was Abraham's intention. If that's so, why did Abraham send Ishmael and his mother Hagar away?

The city of Yathrib was populated primarily by Jews. Mohammad went in with his followers and killed everyone living there and the city was renamed and is to this day, Medina.

Islamic children are taught in many of their schools that Jews are murders, liars, and never to be trusted. They need to be wiped off the face or the earth. Even Hillary Clinton acknowledged this to be true. She said such hatred was appalling.

Me neither, I ripped out a few pages out of my bible and it's called the King Jake Version. I get religious holidays in winter to maintain my trap line.

Simple answer I would guess because of evidence and truth found in the Bible and in the world around us.

Some early Christians, particularly those emphasizing divine justice and the severity of sin, believed (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) was a place of everlasting conscious torment for the unrepentant. This view often drew parallels between the eternal reward of the saved and the eternal punishment of the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman).
Annihilationism:
Other early Christians, including some prominent Church Fathers, believed that the wicked would ultimately cease to exist after a period of punishment, rather than suffering eternally. This view often highlighted God's mercy and the idea that eternal suffering would be a disadvantage.
Temporary Punishment:
Some early Christian thinkers, like Origen, believed that (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) was a temporary state of purification, even for the wicked, with the ultimate goal of reconciliation with God. This view emphasized God's love and restorative justice.

I don't know who is right, but all interpretations come from the Bible.

If you want a really, REALLY deep (like deeper than the bull in Savell's posts) dive into religion/mythology/spirituality before Christianity, this book is an excellent read.
Yes, its almost 700 pages of academia style writing. Exciting? Not terribly. Enlightening? Very.

Origins of the World's Mythologies

The communist states find atheism a more useful tool for controlling their populace. They prefer their subjects to be devoted to the State than to God.

THIS!!!

(last night, I started to type out my version of your answer to KeithC's assertion, but failed in being concise, so I gave up. You did it masterfully!)

I can't cite specific verses, but I believe there are some verses that reference the Judgement of Deniers as being an eternal Separation from God/Love; not necessarily being roasted forever.

Communist and socialist states don't really use Atheism to control the population.. Atheism doesn't unite people in a useful.manner. What they need is the absence of strong religious beliefs, so that hole can be filled by belief in the state. Extreme support of the state is very religion like.

The logic center of the brain goes dark in brain scans when people are in a religious fervor or a political one.

Keith

tomato, tomahto.

Isn't that atheism?

What you said previously was.



Atheism isn't a tool for the communists. They don't use Atheism as a religion replacement. A tool is something you use. Tools have a presence. They just need there to be an void of strong religious beliefs. There is a definite, obvious difference in something and nothing.

Keith

So they need atheism.

Reminds me of the chow hall in basic training! We had one guy that took forever to pray AND he wanted the whole table to hold hands! Only took one blanket party to fix that.

They don't need Atheism, they just need an absence of strong religious beliefs, so there is a hole to fill.

Keith

Keith Is correct on this I believe.
There state,- the Kim dynasty for example is there god, little g man. Pun intended.
Do as I say or the penalty is death.

Atheism is the lack of belief. Despite the weasel words, you keep reiterating that they need atheism.

You unfortunately lack the ability to understand. I'll stop wasting my time on you.

Keith

A lack of belief does not equal a belief that there is/are no god(s).

Weak atheism is defined as "the absence of belief in gods without asserting their nonexistence". Strong atheism, on the other hand, is the absolute belief that no gods exist. Then there are agnostics, who believe that it is impossible to know whether or not gods exist.

Correct.

Keith

A theist is one who has a belief in god(s).

An atheist is one who lacks belief in god(s). a- is a prefix that means not or without.



Correct.

Adios! Don't like to be challenged, I guess.

I love a good debate. There is a massive amount of evidence for that on this site. You can't unfortunately give me a good debate, because you can't grasp what I am saying. It's sad!y clear that it's just a waste of time for me to continue to attempt to help you understand.

Keith

Okay. I'll leave you with your obviously superior intellect.

Mark 9:44-48. Wonder what was being described?

Savell doesn't like my music either, so we do have that common ground.

Keith

Whatever pretend debates occur based on word play rather than functional prose it is a fact of history that both of the co-founders of communism were staunch atheist and believed it to be a necessary part of the framework for communism to succeed. While succeeding generations have sought to make communism more tastefully acceptable to their peoples, at its core it is not empty-space but atheistic.

What is your take on : "Everyone will be salted with fire. "?

I guess that's why christianity is flourishing in countries like North Korea where being a Christian is punishable by death but people are still converting..... christianity has always flourished under persecution, and it gets persecuted because real Christians are more concerned with following Gods laws than whoever the current "power" is.

Only an incredibly minuscule 0.38% of North Koreans are Christian. That is most certainly not a flourishing population.

Keith

I figure it both describes the Bema Seat and the White Throne Judgment.

"The Party cannot be neutral towards religion and does conduct anti-religious propaganda against all and every religious prejudice because it stands for science, while religious prejudices run counter to science, because all religion is something opposite to science. Cases such as recently occurred in America in which Darwinists were prosecuted in court, cannot occur here because the Party carries out a policy of the general defense of science. The Party cannot be neutral towards religious prejudices and it will continue to carry on propaganda against these prejudices because this is one of the best means of undermining the influence of the reactionary clergy who support the exploiting classes and who preach submission to these classes. The Party cannot be neutral towards the bearers of religious prejudices, towards the reactionary clergy who poison the minds of the toiling masses. Have we suppressed the reactionary clergy? Yes, we have. The unfortunate thing is that it has not been completely liquidated"..Joseph Stalin

Atheist's believe there IS NO GOD!
Agnostics think they don't know who's cranking, just glad they don't stop!

…. Sounds painful…. Guess our ancestors are experiencing it

Skinner,
I believe it's like Roman's 12:20 therefore is thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst ,give him to drink:for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.
The coals represent purification. The enemy in the context of this passage are the the jews that have rejected Jesus in Roman's 11. Paul is taking about how they have been blinded for our sakes. And that we should feed then for edification. I believe salted with fire is this same purification God gives us when we need correction.
Kind of like when a parent brings down the hammer on a disobedient child.

…. No politics … this is a religion forum lol

…. In the U.S’s case it didn’t help at all that we lost the 2nd war of independence

Fortunately for those in Christ we have won the war against the second death.

…. What does that even mean ?

… figured you’d win it ?

My favorite quote of the thread! LOL

If Christianity is to blame its because it's made Europeans so wealthy and lazy that it enabled us to allow women to vote and lead.

Someone needs to shut off the double quote ban thing! Ugh.
Anyways I think you are correct but it's in with talk of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) here. I don't believe in purgatory per say, but can't rule out the possibility of additional mercy after death. And this would probably make me a heretic if I mentioned it in church, lol.

Interesting you contribute the problem to women being able to vote. According to 2024 Pew research, 51% of women vote Democrat, but 46% of men also do. So, I really don't think women voting is the main issue. The main issue, IMO, is people, both men and women, who vote for their own self-interest over that of the country as a whole. Now, there is nothing wrong with supporting your own self-interest, in fact, capitalism relies on it. However, the problem is that half of the country's own self-interest revolves around how many handouts they can get from the government.

We start telling our youth that it is acceptable to rely on the government to provide for them from the time they can walk... with government funded daycare, government funded healthcare for children, then on into government funded food in schools and now even when school is not in session. Is it any wonder why, by the time a child reaches the age of 18, they are already expectant of government provided subsistence? But it doesn't end there.. then there is government funded grants so they can get a higher education, and if they need more money than the grants will cover, they will be given government funded loans which politicians will later try to forgive in order to buy more votes.

But yeah, it's definitely women voting that is the problem.....

It means Christ beat death on the Cross. And for the world eternal life is available though him.
I was responding to this is a religious forum.

…. Christ would have won the war against our second death… not lost it right

…. What am I missing here ?

You are dumb….. I can send you some money for a bible or pay for the uber to get you and your family to church….

… no flaming you west coast dope head

…. And I grew up in the church…. 3 services a week

… my kids go fairly regularly and I believe it does them good

What makes a religion old? Aren’t they all old?

…. Religions of my ancestors prior to Christianity is what I am referring to my good man

I wasn’t sure. Other than the jehovahs witnesses I’d figure they all meet the definition of old. But that makes sense. You were talking about the many religions older than Christianity.

….figured that was evident already…. You’re a little slow … but live and let live I guess lol

Oh, I know. Just trying to get my post count up so I can be like the cool kids.

Lol

… you’ll never catch 330 …. No one will

Yes. Without the need to appeal to women voters both parties would be further Right. To be fair many men shouldn't vote either, the founders had it right the first time

when 40 percent of the population is exempt from taxation, it's no wonder they're willing to vote to spend willy-nilly.

…. We had already beat them prior

…. And then the yanks won

Mid ,,, southern and west…..get your facts straight….

…. You ain’t nothin but a bong water guzzler regardless of where you claim to be from

…. One eyed Africans with big belly buttons could whip you in a spelling contest

Best Coast ....

Yeah, best coast to stay away from.

lol. I’m joking mostly.

Savell, watching the Righteous Gemstones will not get you through the Pearly Gate. You need to truly believe in HIM!

John Goodman? John Goodman is definitely real.

Keith

That guy is awesome.


Walton Goggins is also an outstanding actor.

You're mostly right. ....lol

It’s the same here.

We have good parts and would prefer folks to stay away. Mostly Californians and folks from the New England states that move here and vote incorrectly and try to turn us into the states they fled from.

Sorry Sval, my wive is right, I must be getting dementia.
Or my dyslexia is getting out of control. Yes to won the war.

Hummmmm…… I seem to be missing that page…..lol

Yep. An eternity of unbearable torture. What proof do you need that the god you worship is benevolent?

Forced conversion was pretty popular back in the day. There was also the need for trade and political alliances. A central religion was also more desirable to rulers looking to unify Kingdoms. Christianity also enhanced the authority of those rulers.

To control a population History has proven that taking away their religion,history and language works It enables the "New Order" to educate the children Sound familiar

You mean besides offering us a choice (free-will)?
The opportunity of repentence/forgiveness instead of one strike-you're done? To offer a plan where fallen man can be redeemed through the sacrifice of the only perfect man to ever live (the only begotten son of the Father) so that the corrupt could be pardoned? That Christ would bear our sin and its punishment so that we don't have to?
Smoking and non-smoking are choices. Choose wisely. Les, Danny, and all the other fine folks of Tman can choose to be slow-roasted or take a seat at the table of the KIng.
It is not the desire of God that any should perish, but that all would be saved, so if we are lost we have went against the will of God, instead choosing our own will and bearing its consequences. Do the crime, do the time (eternally). Turn or burn. Accept the Man, receive the plan. Be forgiven, enter Heaven. I could go on ad infinitum lol.

Danny if you read the ( translation text as literal and as to an audience that Jesus was not speaking to)
It could and has been taken out of context of what and who Jesus was speaking to.
Even many if not most of the western teachings have been taken out of context by modern preaching.
Using eternal damnation as a fear factor thinks this is what the fear of God is speaking of.
Jesus is using the name of the valley of Gahanna where children had been sacrificed by fire.
He is speaking to a Jewish audience that needs to repent of there evil ways.
They would have understood this if they had learned from there previous judgements.
Most of them didn't repent and within 40 years the ones that did not flee from jerusalem experienced Gahanna.
He'll on earth. Just clarification on what is and has been understood by many beleavers for centuries.
The eternal fire doctrine is not the traditional belief. It was popularized early on in the religious system.

Good post Giant Sage.
I’m a non believer personally but whatever. I will confess that it amazes me how many Christians do not even know the idea of eternal damnation came centuries after the origin of the religion itself.

It’s wild as heck to me that many modern Christians, even church camps, (ask my wife lol) push the idea of burning in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) without even realizing that it is largely Augustine’s idea.

Darkness and Pure Light cannot coexist in the same time and space.

funny thing is...YOU get to choose!

I think that's a stretch. The early church fathers were not united on exactly what hades is, but some did think it was eternal torment. Perhaps it became official catholic doctrine starting with Augustine.

Idea was wrong word to use. He most definitely popularized the idea and shaped theology with it. The early church fathers didn’t view it as a place of eternal torment.

Skinner the catholic belief is purgatory. Basically a just place of judgment equivalent to the crime we have committed. With the ability to still repent and be in God's good graces. The Catholics teach that most peaple go there with the exception of the saints. Also believing that most are eventually released with the exception of the few that refuse to repent of the evil.
I was a catholic for 20+ years and I didn't really know most of there beliefs until I met an ex nun who had be of the faith for 50 years. I left the catholic church some 13 year's ago.
Now I'm just a sinner trying to fallow the true Shepherd.

Wonder what the lake of fire is?
Eternal separation wouldn't be no cake walk either.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), where they suffer the punishments of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs” (CCC 1035).

Ignatius of Antioch
“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement
“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

“But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr
“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire” (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

Polycarp
“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
“[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

So...they didn't believe in eternal torment?

Well, now you just went and stirred up a whole hornets nest by referencing the Church Fathers. The only way to refute any dissention has to be by sola scriptura and your own personal interpretation the Bible.

Skinner
I need to be careful of my wording.
In my reply to Danny. I said eternal damnation, what I meant to say was eternal fire or burning.
I do believe in eternal judgment.
As far as the Catholic beliefs on eternal judgment, I understand that the purgatory doctrine was brought in around 1200s. I believe it is based on several new testament passages. One being praying for the dead.
Like I said I really don't understand alot of what backs the catholic truditions. But at least a few don't align with what I understand from skipture.
The most interesting. Thing you posted is the catechism part where it says emediatly sinners go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) when they die. If this is the case, it would mean that the final throne judgment has already happened.
In this case then the preterast would have it right and that Christ has already returned.
It seems that this world contradict purgatory.

I wonder what Revelations 20 is referring to?

GS,
I had to read this about four times to interpretat it, but I think I finally figured it out. Most Christians believe we either go to hades or heaven at death. Some sects believe in soul sleep until the final judgment. Hades isn't the same as the lake of fire, however. So I'm not seeing the issue.

You may need to start another post on that one .
It could take a while.

I think John of Patmos wrote revelation after eating some rye with ergot mold on it. The precursor of LSD.

Just stating the fact that the catacism states immediate, eternal, judgemet after death. That sound pretty final.
Not a problem. Just an observation.

The weird thing to me is how catholic doctrine separates sin. It says " mortal sin" sends you straight to hades forever. I don't think there's any such thing as eternal salvation in catholic doctrine. If you die without confession of your most recent mortal sin, that's it, but scripture says we are sealed in Christ.

…. Are our ancestors burning ?

Yes, there's some problems.
Maybe the unpardonable sin could be a case for separation of sin.
Though James clearly says if you committed one your guilty of all.
I'm not saying I agree with the catholic doctrine. Just curious where it comes from in scripture.
It's probably a good idea to repent of our mortal sins. Just kidding aren't all sins mortal without being sealed.
So we should repent of all when we know we've sinned?
A hypothetical quest.

This sounds like political "word salad".

]

Only an incredibly minuscule 0.38% of North Koreans are Christian. That is most certainly not a flourishing population.

Keith[/quote]
is that what Google says? maybe 0.38% of north koreans in america are christian. not sure how they would do a poll of how many Christian's are around in a country where they would kill you for proclaiming so....also I just used North Korea as a more recent example, but throughout history it's always been the same, the gospel would not have been spread if the church wasnt dispersed through, I'm not here to fill my ego, it's an honest discussion, just by looking at the facts I have to disagree with your opinion that it's designed by elites to control the masses, that dosnt make sense as all powerful corrupt governments hate christianity. many of the powers ban it. although I'm sure there are times when it has been used to seperate little old ladies pennies to line the pockets of the corrupt. but that is true of anything and is clearly not the point of jesus's teachings.. also if you believe internet polls and percentages of things I got a great truck I could sell you, low miles, no rust ,shes a beaut lol (all in good fun)

Personaly I don't believe so.

Eternal damnation came about during the time of Christ. Augustine may have expounded on it is all. See Matt: 25: 41- 46. "Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Verse 46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life". There are other scriptures that allude to the same.

LSD does not seem real common anymore. When it was an “acid trip” was often described as spiritual or religious. Psilocybin auyahuaska (sp) mescaline are often based on religion. I suspect hallucinogens are the beginning of all major religions.

I agree T7,
The Question is, is what the eternal punishment is.
I think to even a person of faith they may have a heard time exepting the idea of eternal torture by fire being in the character of a loving God. Personally my belief is based on promises of and eternity of pease and rest.
The idea of being seperated from that or of an eternity of nothingness is not a light punishment.

Some of them probably will be, but I don’t think they are yet. If I recall correctly the lake of fire isn’t opened yet. So until then they are just currently in hades being tormented. But probably not all of them

This sounds alot like purgatory.

If we haven’t had the final judgement yet then the lake of fire isn’t open, right? It would just be hades at this point as it was in the parable of the rich man who saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom? That’s my interpretation, but I’m not locked in to it. Just trying to give Savell some hope that his ancestors are still in the waiting room for the smoking section

Everybody in Purgatory is saved; they are going through purification before they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But they are assured a seat at the table.

Serious question. If your certain paradise awaits your death, why are folks not anxious to go? Why rejoice when someone survives a a calamity?

Yeah!

You think they’d be celebrating it. Like those folks over in the sandbox that randomly explode.

I would say because the pleasures of this life are good too and we generally have expectations for what people should do with their lives. The things we enjoy within the context of Christian living (the areas where we are doing it well which can be different for different people) are meant to be enjoyed and are enjoyable. Basically, if you are walking with Christ, you have entered into the kingdom of God here on this fallen earth. He is inviting us to restore and renew the fallen world within which we live and enjoy it to the fullest while we are here.

The same question can be asked about other belief systems too. Why do atheists mourn loved ones if nothing exists past this and life is meaningless? The importance of life is minuscule so there’s no point in mourning

Good question,
If the parents of your grand children parished today. How would that effect those in there lives?

Personaly I believe we have a purpose calectivly. I don't understand God's ways. But when bad things happen good people are the ones who rise up and take the reigns so to speak. Roman's 8:28 and we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to his purpose.
Hears another verse that seems to contradict the first. Roman's 3:10 as it is written, there is none righteous no not one.
This verse is speaking of all peaple saying there is none righteous. So how can I say only good peaple step up when bad things happen. Peaple weather thy believe or not doesn't mean thy can't do good or understand good or
Evil. As a believer I look forward to a better future. But I also understand that I hope for the same for my loved ones and for all peaple. Believe me when I say I have a hard time with wickedness. So I turn this over to God.
Thy will be done. As much as I hope for eternal rest. I Charish the life family and blessings God has given in creation. God will call me home in God's time.

Have grandkids I would like to teach to trap, hunt, fish, and such. Can't really do that from Paradise. However, if the Good Lord calls me home I'm not going to complain about it.

can you cite any verses in The Bible that references such a place/process?

serious question. I've never found it there.

I cant.

I don't subscribe to the idea of sola scriptura, so I'm not particularly bothered by it. I was clarifying a point of fact about Catholic dogma, which you are free to accept or reject. But consider 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

I read those passages...doesn't relate to the question posed.

there's a lot of Catholic doctrine that seems to have "evolved" from outside of the Scriptures.

In my opinion it does. How is one saved through fire? Not in the devil's domain, and not in heaven.

I've considered these pasages. But the same Paul wrote in 2 corinthians 5:1-8 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. Paul is speaking to believers, so doesn't it seem that the believers wouldn't be in the presence of the lord and in purgatory or the same time.

my understanding of Scripture is that we are saved by Grace alone, and not by our works.

Purgatory implies that we have to do something to earn our way to Heaven.

Those in the devil's domain would also be absent from the body, would they not? But not present with the Lord?

"Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord."

That doesn't mean you don't stop at Purgatory on the way if you must first be saved through fire.

I don't think belief in Purgatory is a requirement for salvation, so it's not that important to me whether you believe or not. But I certainly don't subscribe to sola scriptura. So many Protestant denominations that follow that idea can't seem to agree on the same conclusions.

… why do you say that …. They didn’t accept Christ as their savior … he didn’t even exist yet

… prior to Jesus heaven was only for the Jews… everyone else went to helll

Those in Purgatory are saved, but they must be purified of their sins before they can withstand the presence of God. (Exodus 33:20) They have already earned their salvation, but they must be prepared. That's the idea of Purgatory. Again, you're free to accept or reject it.

As for works, James 2:26.

I don't want to argue with you, but...Exodus 33:20 refers to Moses, who was alive at the time.

and how exactly did they "earn" their Salvation? Again, that contradicts what The Bible specifically states.

and James 2:26 makes MY point.

Not accurate according to scripture. For example, what about the Ninevites who repented after Jonah preached to them? Rehab was a cananite harlot, but called a righteous woman in the new testament

…. But they were sand people no?

Sure you do. Let me say again, I'm not trying to convince you to believe in Purgatory; I'm just explaining, from a Catholic perspective, what it is. If you reject it, that's fine with me.


24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

It seems pretty clear to me that works are important.

works are important. they aren't the key to Salvation.

works flow from Faith, not the other way around.

I didn't say that.

ok.

if you say so...

…. I don’t think any of yall really know what you believe lol

…. There really was a harlot named Rehab ? … that’s amazing lol

Sval,
I hope you're last reply is sarcasm, you trying to make a point that is.
Was heaven a plase the jews ever even mentioned in the context of the after life before Jesus.
The jews understood an earthly kingdom. But is there old testament talk of anyone going to heaven to be with God. Jesus apostles didn't even understand a heavenly kingdom.
Probably not truly until the ascension.

All I said on the matter is that those in Purgatory are saved. Let's presume that they're saved for the same reason you believe people are saved.

More than anything my belief has been influenced by "you judge a tree by its fruit"

When I'm in church I see happy young couples with kids, focused on family.i see people forming communities willing to help eachother, I see a lot of good fruit that I don't see outside the church.

We need to get Mark back, he'd have 10,000 word replies to each of your post

…. My comment about ol Rehab ?

Or my comment about all yall disagreeing about the same religion?

Rehab! Sorry that is funny. Have you been lone starin gain?

… mostly good people in the church around here also

what you ACTUALLY said was those in Purgatory "earned their Salvation", but had to be purified in order to meet God.

…. That’s the way the man spelled it …. Rehab the harlot… had to be her stage name

you clearly stated that they earned their Salvation.

If dad doesn't go eventually the kids tend to quit going as well and the grandkids never get exposed. Sacrifice a couple hours a week and get acquainted with some of those good people.

I don’t believe so. I believe that the nations outside of Israel were given over as inheritance to the other “sons of god” aka angelic beings. I believe that those sons of god ruled over those nations and did so poorly. Despite that, most of the people still belonged to that nation through their worship of the evil gods. There are at least a couple instances in the Old Testament that come to mind of non Israelites rejecting their nations gods and accepting that Yahweh is the one true God. Or the God most high. Namaan is one of these people. A Syrian who was healed of leprosy. Even the rulers/kings who believed in the god of the Israelites after seeing a miracle (Daniel and the lions den, fiery furnace, etc) could fall into this category. I believe that salvation has always been for all people and the choice was always up to the individual to choose God or choose the gods of their fathers

…. If y’all don’t quit all this arguing you might find yourselves smitten down

Obout them not knowing Chist and only the jews going to heaven. But ya also the Rehab remark.

Speaking of the comment I made where Giant Sage said it sounds like purgatory, I was referring to the parable of the rich man who went to hades and saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom (heavens waiting room). I don’t personally believe in purgatory, but I don’t pretend to know all things so I’m not vehemently against it either

Oh, is everybody saved, then? Or is there some condition that the Bible does in fact state?

I know. It's still funny. lonestar, Rehab. Maybe a poor attempt at humor.

The Pharisees believed in an afterlife. The Sadducees did not (and, as the joke goes, that's why they're sad, you see).

lol, that’s a good one.

No body went to heaven until Jesus had paid the blood sacrifice, before that all went to a place where the best part was Abrahams Bosom and the worst part being Tartarus with other levels in between them. Jesus went there and preached to them and retrieved the Saints.

As far as purgatory, I feel its a part of the bereavement process the Jews used for when a family member would die. They would bury them in a tomb then for 11 months less one day while reciting the Mourner's Kaddish daily by maybe as much as 5 times daily, depending on how close the deceased was. A parent was more important than say a cousin. They would remove the body from the tomb and clean the rotted meat from the bones of the deceased. That was a type of a purification in their way of thinking. Then they would bury those clean bones with the others that were purified.

Jesus told the disciple that said he would follow him after he buried his parents, which could have been many months or years considering they might not even be dead yet. Jesus told him to put them in the tomb and literally let the dead in the tomb bury their own dead. Bereavement is a very important part for closer but is not meant to be perpetual.

The Kaddish prayers was not for the dead but praises to God. This life is where decisions are made and where the tree falls, there it shall lie.

…. Dermestid Beatles would have been a lot easier

Sval,
Clear as mud yet?

…. Yeah … some questions just can’t be answered I guess

… think I’ll take a shot of wild turkey… say a Kaddish prayer and carry on lol

… speaking of that … how does one go about saying a Kaddish prayer?

… or would I be better off pm’ing Rehab the harlot lol

Wild Turkey sounds good. Have a few for me.

Maybe you would be better off just not to worry about the future and just hope when you croak a relative or good friend will stand in for you at a Baptism For The Dead. It would be quicker and easier.

The Catholics had a racket going in the middle ages where you could pay the church to get your friends and relatives out of purgatory. IDK if they ever told you exactly how much a soul costs. All hogwash, of course. It's sad how often people in power use religion for gain.

Years ago we had a guy near here die. The church collected a lot of money to get him suitable for Heaven. A group went to one of his cousins and told him they thought they had him about prayed out and thought just $200 more would do it. The cousin told them he was sorry he didn't have any money and that they would just have to "let him go".

True story.

And then ol' Martin Luther, the problem Chile, he gets royally ticked at the church corruption and nails 95 complaints to the church door. Which made the big shots kick him out. But the common folk were like "High five, bro!"....and that's why there are Baptists, although the pentencols eat in a different social hall after the split about pot roast vs fried chicken.

Skinner those offerings are probably still happening today. A dear old friend of mine maybe 20 years ago made an offering for prayer for his wife who had recently past. It was the first I had ever heard of praying for the dead, purgatory, or paying an offerings for your loved ones who had passed on.
This was one of the first things that really got me to questioning the catholic church traditions.

There you go Savell. For only $200, per ancestor of course, you can get your ancestors a golden ticket to Heaven.

Don't forget inflation but if it's a 501c3 you should be good on taxes.

Which religion does not say the creator of everything always needs more money?

That would be the Jesus religion. Luke 9:3

Thats funny J Staton

Yes,
Jesus said to be his disciple you must sell all that you have, give it to the poor and follow him.
I don't think he was saying give it to a religious organization.
He was speaking to a man that had claimed to have kept the whole law thinking he was perfect.
And Jesus was showing him that he had not reach perfection. No one can.
No one ever has but Jesus.

Now I go to church but I do like the AC on a Sunday in July. While it may not be necessary for spreading the Good News, this fat boy don't mind contributing to the "comfort cause". lol

Blessed are the poor in spirit.
AC is a blessing. You contributed.
You sacrificed for the comfort of others.
I'm sure the doors of your church building are open to the poor.

J Staton is right, danny. Jesus didn't keep the money for Himself; He wanted people to give their wealth all to the poor.

and you and Jesus have something in common: He railed against the hypocritical religious leaders of His day, too!

Amen to that.

That kinda leads to another thought. Was the uncle Joseph of Arimathea, which was a tin trader and wealthy, financing Jesus. Joseph did donate his own tomb for burial of Jesus. But in a sense that was no big deal because he only needed it for the weekend.
There is a song about that "He'll Only Need For The Weekend" by Leroy Blankenship.

What did Jesus need financed? He walked every where and stayed with people who were hospitable. His and the disciples ministry didn't seem to have many expenses. Especially when five fish can feed five thousand people.

That's an interesting thought, especially if you need tax money just catch a fish and get it out of his mouth. But then I think the group must have had a consolidated pot for something, otherwise why did they need a treasurer ?

Jesus and his uncle must have been close especially in his younger days of travel to Cornwall, etc.

Back in those days being homeless or close to being so was more acceptable than it is today. They had a treasury that they used to help the poor when the situtation called for that or they had the funds for doing so.


Bryce

I don't see the harm in offering a prayer. And yes, it's still a thing. If you don't believe the prayer does anything, then so what.

Offering money so the Church can build a basilica, on the other hand, is definitely a recipe for corruption. On this, at least, the modern Church agrees that Martin Luther had a point.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, it was a monetary payment offering. I understand praying for the dead.
And I certainly understand why peaple would. Paying for prayer on the other hand. If peaple believe in that sort of thing them more power to them. I make fun of most religions, but not to jest, just to get peaple to think outside the box. All religious denominations have flaws. We as peaple are not flawless. I'm an independent chicken eatin bible thumpin baptist, and I don't really like chicken all that much.