MODS-Pipe strengthening longsprings . .NEW method

The two methods I have seen for strengthening old longsprings that have gone weak are one, ruining another spring by cutting the eyes off, slipping inside of the weak longspring and then riveting or spot-welding in place. The problems I have with this methods are one, I don't have any old springs that I want to sacrifice, and two you are making the traps a lot heavier if you do any backpacking to a set location. The other method for strengthening involves putting the longspring over a pipe and hitting it with a hammer to bend the longspring back out. The problem with this method is that if the spring is really wore out, the "strengthening" may only last a few sets before it is back to its worn out state.

My thought this morning was, Why not leave the pipe inside the longspring? This will move the flex point some, but not very far.



The result is a very strong spring. The one on the left, I cut the pipe the same width as the spring, welded it, then ground the weld flat. I didn't really like it, so I cut the pipe 1/4" short on the second one and had about 1/8" recess on each side for my weld. What do you think? Good solution to an old problem? OR do you see a shortcoming in this method? I used old galvanized pipe that I had laying around, but you could buy new black pipe very inexpensive.

I like it. If the spring is strong, you fixed it!

Can you get them fully compressed?Aren't you worried about the amount of heat on the spring from welding it?

What size pipe did u go with?

looks good, but I dont think you should weld on galvanized

Weld that galvanized!.. just hold your head back and hold your breath!

Great Idea.

Drink milk too!

chris

Way to go Grant that is an excellent idea. As long as you don't get the spring real hot no worries.

Yep, I can get them set. They are very strong now though. No, I am not worried about the heat too much. The springs were junk if it didn't work and to weld a tiny spot back in the corner isn't getting the rest of the spring very hot. Here is a picture of it with a PIT pan installed. This trap was basically my test dummy: the springs were shot and the old cast jaws were all warped and crooked. People also said not to weld the cast jaws. I welded them today just to see and it seemed to work fine. I was also told not to straighten the cast jaws, but I straightened them while they were still warm from welding and it worked fine. Now they are not perfectly straight, but I took what I thought was a junker trap and turned it into a pretty skookum trap. Just need to baseplate now.

This is just regular 1/2" inside diameter water pipe. The outside diameter looks like about 13/16".

That's using ones head! Good thinking.

Wow! I was told never to weld cast as it could cause large pits and flake off after it snaps a few times. I never did try it. I was using a 220 stick welder. Are those laminations done with wire welder on the cast jaws?
Great job! Looks excellent

Hi-nickle rod should do the trick right?

I snapped the trap off plenty of times today seeing if it would break or something. Nothing so far. I think people really get confused about cast iron versus cast steel. So I started searching on the internet last night and came away with two things: the old Victor's are cast steel and two, you can weld cast steel without much problem. I am not a welder, just a guy who bought one of those cheap 110 volt wire feeds. My welding knowledge is summed up by "If your burning holes in it, turn the heat down. If it looks like it is just sitting on top, turn the heat up." So yes, wire feed. I picked up a stick of 1/4"x1/4" cold roll and 1/8"x1/8" cold roll today (they didn't have 3/16" in stock). I tried the 1/8" first and nearly burned through it and it was not easy to form. So I grabbed the #9 wire for snare supports and cut a chunk off it. It welded easy and it formed easy. My thought at that point was, "If it is good enough for a MB650 lamination, it is good enough for an old, nearly worn out Victor double longspring."

Two more thoughts on this: For PIT pan users, the stronger the spring, the more pan tension you have. Right now I have too much pan tension on this trap (3/4" outside diameter pipe might be enough for the #3 longspring). I will fiddle with fixing the pan tension tomorrow and let you know how I fix that issue. Two, if you are worried about welding the jaws, or don't have a welder drill a hole in the spring in the very corner. Drill a hole in the center of the piece of pipe and use a bolt and lock nut to suck the pipe up into the corner, no welding required.

Though I've haven't done this before I believe I can answer your question LT.
Yes, where the tacks are the temper has been removed a short distance through what is called the "heat-affected zone". So, if all the spring's bending was to continue to be from the apex of the spring's bend, the spring would have lost strength from the tacks. By adding the pieces of 1/2" pipe, the apex of bend now has shifted from the original that was weakened from the 3 o'clock position to straight and un-prebent spring(relatively speaking) to the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock position of the piece of pipe insert. Very little bending will now occur in the original spring's bend regardless of the little loss of temper because the apex of bend has moved. The increase is spring strength comes now from the shortened and comparatively straight length of existing spring around the radius of the insert at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. Again, I'm talking in relative terms as far as where the new bending occurs in regards to the radius of the pipe insert trying to explain that the apex of bending is away from and unaffected by the tacks.
Clear as mud eh?

Spot, I got a wire welder if you need it.

I think that was a good explanation Seldom. You could go with a slightly smaller pipe also to get the new flex points slightly further back. I might see if I can find some 3/4" outside diameter pipe to try. I have 20-30 of the older cast jaw traps that I wouldn't mind doing this to. Might as well get it right before I do all of them.

1/2" pipe is 7/8" OD and 3/4" is 1-1/8"OD. Using a larger OD insert will certainly increase the strength of the springs by moving the bending apex even closer to the spring eyes(shortening the spring)

I agree! Cheap and easy just like me. lol

~ADC~

I'd suggest not using galvanized pipe for the insert or grind off the galvanizing if you have to use it. Zinc from the galvanizing will not stay in-solution in the molten weld puddle and will precipitate to the center of the tack. This coupled with the spring steel could easily cause a cracking failure of the tack.

I just got out my calipers to measure the pipe I used. I pulled this pipe out of this building I am sitting in when I replaced the galvanized with PEX, so this galvanized pipe is from 1953. It measures 27/32". That is 1/32" less than 7/8". Is black pipe the same outside thickness?

It sure is nice having someone who knows about metal contribute! I will pull apart one of my pipe clamps I use for wood working and use some black pipe then.

Seldom, I think he was referring to using a pipe that has a true 3/4" OD. Although I am not sure what "trade size" that would be. 3/8" maybe?

Mike

1/2" nominal pipe size is always gong to be 7/8" OD regardless of time & place.

If all you've got is galvanized, use it but grind the galvanizing off before you weld and you'll have no problem.

Yes, I bet you're correct that it was 3/8" nominal pipe size at 3/4" OD.

If you can't find the right size outside diameter pipe, you could also look for the correct size bushing or bolt (cut the head off) at a hardware store. Lots of options really to get the right size of something in there, I just had the old pipe in the vice when I was thinking about it.

I've never handled much 3/8" pipe. So I have no idea what the OD is.

Anybody know off-hand?

Mike

I just looked it up: if you are using black pipe or galvanized pipe 1/2" inside diameter pipe is about 27/32" outside diameter, 3/8" inside diameter pipe is about 11/16" outside diameter. So nothing exactly 3/4". 11/16" might work well though. I might have to make a run to town and get a piece to try.

Nom. Size (in) O.D. Average I.D. Min. Wall Nom. Wt./Ft. Max. W.P. PSI**
1/8" 0.405 0.249 0.068 0.051 810
1/4" 0.540 0.344 0.088 0.086 780
3/8" 0.675 0.473 0.091 0.115 620
1/2" 0.840 0.602 0.109 0.170 600
3/4" 1.050 0.804 0.113 0.226 480
1" 1.315 1.029 0.133 0.333 450

... I'm not sure but you all may be over complicating it. lol I'll bet you can get 10' of conduit in a size that will work just fine for like $2...

I had considered that, but I think EMT would crush. And rigid is the same size as water pipe. Last time I bought a stick of 1/2" rigid it was $13 at Lowe's. LOL

Mike

Also wall thickness will dictate some of your size difference. ie. schedule 40 wall pipe versus schedule 80

Schedule 40 and 80 have the same OD. The ID on 80 is smaller. At least it is with conduit. You lose wire fill capacity on a given size with 80 compared to 40.

Mike

Wow!! Excellent, excellent thread!! I got a couple of Vics that I am
going to do this with.

Electrical rigid conduit is called GRC = galvanized rigid conduit. Use of black pipe should just be easier to use, in the long run.

Interesting !

Reading these posts...leads me to believe that some may be pipe fitters...because fitters know everything... just ask em! Great thread...very good idea Grant!

Thanks!

LOL! Not me, I never fought with wrenches! LOL I was a journeyman pipe fabricator(higher pay grade than a fitter} and a journeyman pipe welder for Dow Chemical for many years. I also was the Senior Welded Construction Specialist(aka non-degreed Welding Engineer) for not quite as many years at the same plant before retiring.

Cool...I am a contract welder at Dow Corning myself.

The Dow plant here in Midland is the original "Mother Plant" of the company. Right across the highway is the original Dow Corning "Mother Plant" which is very small in comparision. Both companies Corporate Headquarters are also located here in Midland.

I would be worried about taking the temper out of the springs by welding to them, and with galvanized pipe you have to be careful not to inhale the fumes, but they look pretty good, do they seem a lot stronger?

Oic..u were Dow chemical.. not Dow Corning.

Yes, they are way, way stronger.

Yes, I worked for Dow Chemical.

Awesome idea, thanks for sharing! I've got a handful of "junk" double longs I was looking to tinker with and get back to usable shape. This is just the trick!

I think I am going to try some 3/8" inside diameter black pipe. That will be about 11/16" outside diameter. I just called the steel supply place in town and a 21' stick is $16, that would do well over a 200 springs or 100 traps. That is a pretty inexpensive remedy. I have to go to town on Monday so I will pick up a small piece to try first before I buy a whole stick.

May be Sleepy Creek would do that to ther 1.5 long spring!!!!!!!!!! WEAK/SLOW Trap

I got my experimental trap firing at 3 pounds. I had to bend the dog down quite a ways. I think a smaller diameter pipe is in order. Here is a link to Ed Medvetz's experiments with increasing and decreasing pan tension with bending the dog: http://paws-i-trip.com/?page_id=1169

And here is a picture of how much I had to bend the dog to get it into the 3 pound range, again I think a smaller diameter pipe might work better when you are switching to a paws-i-trip (PIT) pan:

Nicely done, GrantRichie. It's just fun to see an idea like this come together and work so well.

Grant you can remove the zink coating with Muratic acid.

Good to know. Since I don't have any muriatic acid, I think I will just buy some black pipe since it is very inexpensive and a small amount will do a great many traps. If a guy was to use the acid method, is there a certain time you would have to soak the galvanized pipe to remove the zinc coating?

You would want to place the pre cut pipe pieces in a plastic or glass bucket then cover with water just enough to cover the pieces. Then add muriatic acid until the solution starts to bubble. I will usually stir with a stick while standing up wind. Should only take between 2-4 minutes at normal temperatures. Remember to add acid to water and not the other way around, also personal protective clothing is a good idea. I have taken the coating off of a lot of chain this way, remember also that the metal will rust very fast after it has been pickled with acid.

Till it quits bubbling works on chain too, good to have in your supplies removes dip and a few other problem coatings.

It sure does!!! I was told to always put whatever I had in the acid into a baking soda/water mix and then rinse well to stop the acid's effects. Oh boy, that stuff cleans whatever is on traps/chains fast!!

Thanks for sharing, I've got a few that need worked over.

all "pipe" is sized by the I.D. Tube is sized by the O.D.

I use alot of tube building roll cages, ask your metal supplier if the have any 3/4 tube, .134 wall thickness C.R.E.W. thats cold rolled electical welded tube

Fascinating thread fellows. . .bookmarked!

>The two methods I have seen for strengthening old longsprings
A third method I have read about, but never tried, is to re-temper the old springs. You would need to remove the springs, reheat, etc. Not sure if re--temper would be successful, and for how long. . .

Yep I hope this one continues and gets archived. Good stuff thanks.

I wonder it you could get the pipe in the spring drill a hole through the spring and use a self tapping screw to catch the pipe. That should keep the heat off the spring.

The small amount of heat generated from a small tack Isn't going to effect the spring.

When I added helper springs to my weakened long springs I would drill them and pop rivet them In place. I also would wrap the springs together with 14gauge copper wire and then dab on some solder flux and solder the wire together for a permanent fix. Drilling spring steel can some times be a bit tough but It can be done with the right bits and some liquid lubricant.

If you went the drilling and tapping route or the copper wire route you could use copper pipe, conduit or even PVC.
OR to even go a bit farther you could drill a hole all the way through the two spring leaves about 1" from the bend and add a bolt and you could adjust the tension with just a turn of a nut. The options are endless.

You could also cut the pipe in half before tacking it into place. You only need a "C" to change the flex point of the spring. It looks a little more "natural" and it would cut your cost (and weight) in half.

But cutting your pipe In Half makes more work.

Hang around some plumbing shop and I bet you could pick up all the short pieces of pipe for nothing. Or check Into some job site at noon I bet you could get a truck load of black pipe ends.
When I was In the trades we never took any short ends back to the shop.
Short chunks of re bar would work as spacers.

Yup, if you've got a welder in the garage/shop you've got to learn to become a "drop-box diver". Every time I visit my local steel supply/shop I "dive" the drop-box(s)! Twice this past week! LOL

Like his website

Looks like you did a very good job. However why not just use coil spring traps? Easy to replace springs and smaller trap to bed. I'm guessing the answer is you already had the long springs and wanted to play with them????

I quick cheap fix on traps you all ready have Is cheaper then buying new.

If pipe fitters were so smart, seems like they'd've (redneck double-conjunction) ordered pipe that fit in the first place. No offense to any pipe fitter in here, just all the other ones.

I'm a pipe fitter and I would have used 3/4x1/8" flat stock and just cut It to length to fit between the upper and lower springs. So There LOL

The only probem I can see with this, is you are making less spring do more work.
Maybe there is excess spring material in the design to make this work long term.

There are a few guys that can re-temper springs. If there are no stress cracks, they would be like new then.
May be cost prohibitive.
I just buy new springs from sleepy creek and be done. Used to be able to buy Newhouse springs and every other kind.

Well I have had more important things to tend to than buying and welding 3/8" pipe inside of a double long spring the last two weeks (wife went into labor 4 weeks early, but now we have a healthy baby boy 10 days old named Callan Trapper Richie, uncle started calling him Trapper in November and it kind of stuck although his mom wouldn't allow it for a first name).

I did pick up a 3/8" piece of pipe (3/8" inside diameter, 11/16" outside diameter). It is not big enough to make the spring any stronger. I may pick up a 3/4" bolt next time I get into town and see if that is the perfect size to add strength to the spring but not make it too stiff.

Cut the pipe length ways so It fits where you want It. It doesn't have to be tucked back In the spring radius.

Grant, I was going to tell you the 3/8 pipe was too small. I picked up a piece and tried it on an old, weak #3 Vic DLS I have.

Could've saved you a trip. Sorry bud.

Mike

I think experimenting with how how far back into the spring you place 1/2" I.D. diameter black pipe as The Beav suggested is probably the best bet. I will play with that and try to find a good easy way of measuring it (like putting a piece of wire back in there or something similarly easy).

Beav!!!! Your a pipefitter!!... that explains why u know everything!.. I should've picked up on that...it seems me being a pipewelder...Im always bantering with a fitter.

Eventually you will catch on. LOL

Do they Not make Auxiliary Springs for #3 n #4 Longs? I was planning to buy some to strengthen mine up a couple small Rivets would be easier.

I love to tinker and weld on traps, but have to play devil's advocate here.....

Why not just either buy a new set of springs or toss/replace the trap? Seems that by the time you mess with cutting the pipe and tacking it in place you could just spend a few $ and replace the springs just as easy. OR, just replace the trap....at approx $20 for a new #3/4 DLS cat trap that might get you a several hundred dollar cat it seems like the better time investment is to not mess with weak springs.

That said, I will try the pipe strengthening method too...just to satisfy my curiousity. Great post...Thanks!

Trappers are cheap and we like to tinker. It's who we are.

New set of springs is between $11 and $12 per trap. Piece of pipe you have laying around is free. Takes about 5 minutes to cut short piece off and tack weld in place. Cheap. Easy. Fast.

No, no Beav and Grant, I getcha...believe me...seems like a good idea and I'll give it a try...I love tinkering. Again, I was playing devils advocate. BUT for the price of a good cat I'm not willing to do tooooo much experimentation. Proof of concept kinda deal.

If I felt the fix did not work well I certainly wouldn't waste my time. The trap I experimented on had incredibly weak springs and a very tweaked jaw. Now the springs are super strong and I was able to get the jaw pretty straight. Basically a trap that I did not feel was usable is now pretty good for almost no cost. If we were in the middle of trapping season and I needed more traps I would just buy new traps that were ready to go, but since trapping season is 7 months away I have time to fiddle with the old traps and see if they can go a few more years.

Grant will pit pans fit #4 jumps?

I don't own any jumps so I can't say. I would call the guy that makes them, Ed Medvetz 888-215-9249. I know he has a quite a few different kits to fit a lot of different traps.

Yes, i had some #4 jumps with pits

You shorten the DLS bracket. It makes the #3 jumps a good trap. Use a on #4 as is.

X2 I had a pipe fitter for the union teach me how weld, properly cut even angles on pipe, ect and he had so much info it was almost overwhelming haha.

This is an awesome idea though! I think this is definitely article worthy in a magazine. There are hundreds of longsprings just sitting around people sheds (including mine) because the springs were too weak.

TTT

Very Very nice.

You ruined those springs by welding on them. The heat transfer will take most if not all the hardness and "Memory" out of them. Notice I didn't say anything about Tempering.

If you read the whole thread you'll find that "ruined" was not what he ended up with.

great post I will try it if it works that good I have about 5 dozen to do

No not ruined, though they were before I started welding on them.

Those springs weren't ruined by welding on them. It's only a small tac with no real heat transfer to the spring It Isn't like you are running a cover pass over the spring. Us pipe fitter/ welders will understand this.
If your so scared of ruining the springs with heat just wrap a few turns of wire through the pipe and around the spring and your good to go.

Grant that's a great fix for all those weak long springs. Since you posted this I have used some cold roll and I have used sections of re bar. IT's a great fix for those weak springs.

Thanks for sharing.

I read this post a few days ago & did the same thing, works great, been having pull outs before, now I've had none, the critters there when I check, glad you posted this Grant!!

As to this memory thing. Big Bob Is correct to a point but once you add the piece of pipe or what ever you chose to use your creating a new memory to that spring.

TTT again for those that missed it, works like a charm, great post Grant!!

x2

What size pipe do I need for #1 victor traps??

TTT

Tt for the newbs

Well . . .maybe.

Great consideration should be given here because there are several different aspects to this method that should be addressed.
The metal is different in the springs is than it is in the rest of the trap.
Spring steel is heat treated.
The carbon content is different in the springs. It has to be.

Whenever you are welding, you are melting steel to 'some' degree.
At the spot of the weld, when welding . . . you are at 1500 degrees f
And when you heat spring steel at that temp, it can become brittle, which can cause cracking under pressure.
A long spring , when set , is under pressure.
When you do this, you messing with the temper of the steel.
IMO, it looks good at first glance, but there are a few things, (again) to consider.
Unless you have the means to retreat it, I personally wouldn't do it.

An argument can always be found, considering the different welders as well as different welding processes .
Yet the facts remain.
The best and quickest way is just to re-arch your springs using a 3 lb sledge hammer and a steel rod.
However, if you're considering welding pipe beneath / inside a long spring. . .use as little weld as possible .
Just enough to hold it

I have some Blake and Lamb and Newhouse long springs that I've used for over 30 years.
I've never had to re-work the springs. . .ever !
So if you're having to re-do springs, what kind of traps are you using ?
Steel today, is not what it was , say 30-40 years ago.


LT G
( long spring user since 1970 )