Russian sable trapping insight

Ran across this company today that has resurrected some older sled models.

https://youtu.be/NyUbrKrqQOo

https://stelsoffroad.com/snowmobiles-stels/

The first youtube will get Sharon's attention at 19 minutes
Those must be stone marten s. foina around Lake Baikal valued at 1 Euro to the trapper
upon further review looks like S. zibeline Marten since there is no throat patch.

Those are very typical-looking Barguzin sables (Martes zibellina princeps) you are talking about. They are the dominant subspecies around the lake Baikal. A few years ago they cost up to 8000 roubles ($250 back then), but this year, local buyers offer around RUR 1500-2000 (~$20, because the rouble devalued).

(long-time lurker, first-time poster here on Trapperman. Greetings from Siberia!)

Interesting, that Viking has a 155x24 track which makes it a super wide track. Not a lot of info on the two motor options, curious as to who makes the motors they are using, I note that both the 2-stroke and the 4-stroke specify 92 octane fuel. I've never ran one of the old single ski skidoos so I'm not sure what advantage that design would be, but always assumed with the dual tracks in the rear it wouldn't steer very good at all.

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It's about time !!

Thanks for posting and shedding some light on the sleds and marten Tatiana.

Are the sable of a shorter, wider build than American marten, or are they similar but stretched shorter and wider?

Thanks for the up-date and filler Tatiana.
My only experience was my friend went to Lake Baikal but most of his month was after shorebirds.
They are a lot heavier than our marten 30/06
1.8 kg some males get to. The heaviest that I have weighed is 1.35kg with our marten. those form to a full 3xl on our forming boards.
I have done 10 or so from the taiga around Gilliam MB and those went 1.25 kg average

Just like here in North America, Siberia is a huge place and the sable differ in size depending on the section.

Several year ago I had the opportunity to look at several thousand Russian Sable skins, they were from all the different sections of Siberia. The variety of colors and sizes depending upon the section was remarkable. If I recall some of them from along one of the big rivers in central Siberia were relatively pale compared to the sable in the video posted above, they were nearly identical to many of the marten I've seen from parts of Alaska.

Regarding how they are stretched. A Russian friend of mine here in the States showed me how to do it several years ago. Essentially take a fairly large size marten board, pull the inside-out skin down the board but instead of hooking the nose of the marten over the end of the board you pull board up completely through the mouth hole of the marten. Pull the skin about half way down the board or maybe a little more, you then pleat the skin just like we used to pleat otter tails. You have to be careful that you don't pleat it so tight that the skin taints between the pleats. The object is to get it so the length of the skin is about equal to the length of the tail.

I did three marten like this once and sent them to auction, they sold right along with the rest of my marten just fine; not quite sure how they sized them though, maybe just by feel.

Russian sable have a very pleasant smell, like marten, but it is a little different than marten.

Tatiana, is "Yugra" your town?

Sables are actually very similar to North American martens, and most weigh around 900 g - 1300 g skinned. I've heard of bigger sables, but they are very rare. A zoologist friend who has studied the sable his whole life says the biggest he's seen was around 1.8 kg. The largest sables are said to live on the Kamchatka peninsula (and they have amazing dark, thick, glossy fur). There are also very big sables to the north from where I live, in the Yamal peninsula (they tend to be very light-colored and fuzzy).

In our area (Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug, a.k.a. Yugra, a region in the middle of the river Ob basin in West Siberia), sables are relatively large, light- and dull-colored (i.e. grayish rather than reddish). Their fur is less silky than in Barguzin's but the underfur is thicker and longer. They belong to the type subspecies (M. zibellina zibellina), and the area around our village is one of the few places with aboriginal population, unaffected by the massive reintroduction program when they released dark sables from East Siberia, Yakutia and Kamchatka to repopulate areas where the sables had been wiped out or to "improve" the local population.

As for the shape of the pelts in the video, it's because of the stretchers they use, so it's not just the pleating. There used to be strict state-regulated rules (nowadays, it's just guidelines) about the size and shape of stretchers for sables of a particular "kryazh". Kryazh (an old word meaning "mountain range") is a technical term of the fur industry that is parallel to "subspecies" in zoology, but focuses on pelt properties. Around the lake Baikal, they use wide 3-part stretchers - originally, they were intended to minimize cuts on the pelt. This way, you can skin the sable with just one cut along the gums and four small cuts on the paws:



Further East (in the Far East of Russia and on Kamchatka) they use even shorter, rounder stretchers so that the final product looks like a frying pan with a tail. Here is a link to a forum with good pictures: https://amur-bereg.ru/threads/promysel-sobolja.4716/page-127#post-526142

In our area, we use simple long stretchers similar to those for North American martens. The same stretchers are used for the Pine marten (Martes martes) in European Russia and for marten-sable hybrids (kidases).
Here's an example of what we catch here:


Sorry, I've gone off topic

Sorry ,I've gone off topic; hyet.... (no)...education from another prospective is all important
This last thread should be moved over to ' the marten die off thread "

Tatiana,
Very interesting information, thanks so much.
When I I was looking at all those Sable skins many years ago I was wondering why some were stretched longer and very similar to our marten, and some were like you said, like little frying pans. I believe those little frying pan shape ones we're from Primorsky region??
They also had some skins that were apparently farm-raised. I remember they were huge and very uniformly dark, they were stretched long, but seemd to lack some character though.

Tatiana,
I would like to hear about your trapping methods; traps, bait, lure, etc..

Northof50,
Good idea, maybe "international sable" or something like that.

Pretty difficult to split or splice different treads

^^^^^
Yes, not really a big deal, we all know where this discussion is taking place.
If anything, I suppose the OP could retitle this thread.

Yes

Tatiana I don't mind the thread hijack one bit. Like everyone else has said thank you for your explanations and insight, its very informative.

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Interesting info. Thanks for speaking up Tatiana, enjoying your insight on the sable.

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You bet this had my attention ! I am so reminded of a couple of years ago, Jack going out of his way to patiently explain the various marten species , and some of their different behaviours. I kept his info , some of his experiences in Russia and many other places. I know he will be peering at this sandbox .

Can't get over those stubby but well furred tails on Tatiana's photo. Nice colour variety too.

I appreciate reading these things and everyone's input very much .

I just did a screen shot of this recent sale.
I'm curious if the 90,000 Barguzin sable are all from the Barguzin region. I doubt it, I would guess, it is just like in North America where if the individual skin reaches the quality and type of a particular section it will be put in that section of skins regardless of where it comes from.
Additionally, I bet there is motivation to put a particular skin into the Barguzin assortment for marketing reasons.
The section "Baum Marten" are western European pine marten, they are generally not as desirable as Alaska marten. I'm fairly optimistic for halfway decent prices in upcoming sales. It seems like they had pretty good clearances on this sale too; good news.

I will bet, on the record, that next sale overall north american marten average under $45.00 USD.
I hope I'm wrong.

Thank you for the insights Tatiana.

Tatiana - Interesting info. If u don't mine me asking what are u doing over that way?

Tatiana,
Thank you so much for joining us here.
If you have any pictures of your region, trapping, outdoors stuff, please post them if you would like. I know everyone here would like to see what trappers life is like on the other side of the planet.
Спасибо
Opps, that didn't work, I thought we could enter cyrillic text here.
Spaseabo

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Great stuff Tatiana ! Is English your native language ?

Thanks for sharing your culture

So that is a Eurasian red squirrel Sciurus valgaris in winter pelage ?

Was English taught in your schools ? Seems most of the parasitologist that we deal with are verse

What a wonderful and very interesting reply Tatiana. Thank you. Impeccable English which I assume is your second language.

You mention about otters and people not knowing too much about catching them. If you go to the Canadian Trappers Talk Forum P. 92 and P. 95 you will see, respectively, the discussions on "Paul Millette* Otter Set" and "Otter Set in the Winter". Unfortunately the pictures do not do it justice. An extremely effective way to catch otter using 220 style otter traps. Essentially the set takes advantage of the usual fact that the only under water way an otter can get over a beaver dam in the winter is to pass where the dam empties. Trap is set slightly upstream of the break in the dam and just under water in the center of the main water flow. You may have to trench the mud ahead of the dam a bit so that the trap remains under water. Movement of the water keeps the trap ice free when you do it right and the otter will follow the main water movement in this very narrow place.

The set is very effective and in heavily trapped areas, if otter prices are high, can be too effective for the health of the otter population. This is where trappers with individual trapping areas, vs. open trapping areas, lets conservation prevail with limiting catches. Of course you need beavers and I am not sure what your beaver population is like.

Perhaps someone viewing has good pictures of the trap set up I am talking about.

* Paul was a trapping legend who came up with many innovative ideas to help other trappers.

Of course, otter prices have been so poor for so long that over-trapping them isn't currently a problem in the USA.

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Yes that is why I mentioned beaver as had heard your beaver population may not be high. Amazing North America is overrun with beaver after being nearly wiped out a long time ago. Suspect Russian beaver still being pursued for meat as well as fur. Here in North American people eating beaver is way down as they get more and more money to buy farm meat + get more and more away from the land. Big difference from back in the 70's and 80's with now hardly any beaver trapping because prices are down and much less demand for meat regardless. Again your written English impeccable and much better than most native speakers.

Very much appreciate your contribution here !!

Agree with Crosspatch. Your English is wonderful !

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Thank you for your responses Tatiana.
All my trapping has been directed to collecting ticks and fleas and fur mites. They are forwarded to our local University to either Entomology or Zoology Departments. Because the bulk of fur mite and louse specialist are left in the USSR samples are always sent to their collections.
Museum collecting and paper bound journals are becoming like dinosaurs ..extinct.

I have to agree with the others Tatiana, your English is amazing. Thank you for your contributions.

Yes your English is good (better than mine and it's the only language I speak ) and that picture of the sled you pull behind the snowmachine looks like a lot of the ones people (houndmen and trappers) use around here, except they are usually metal and synthetic. I used to run a sled with skis but switched to an Otter sled, but a)we don't have the extreme cold that you guys do and b)I added UHMW 'outrigger' skis on the outer edges to give it a wider footprint so have never had a problem when bouncing it off trees and gates. . . well other than pulling the hitch off one time when I caught the sled on a rootwad at speed.

Tatiana, what occupies the top of your local food chain? Wolves, Brown Bears, perhaps Sib. Tigers? Do you travel back country armed like most do here in Alaska?

Interesting, and once again quite detailed, write up on beaver. The easy places to trap prime under ice otter will follow the spread of beaver dams. Thanks again for another interesting read.

Brown bears. They're not as aggressive as some bears in East Siberia, but not all of them are timid, especially in remote areas with little hunting pressure. I'm personally not very fond of bears after a couple of scary encounters. There are too few bear hunters nowadays compared to the Soviet and early post-Soviet times – partly because of severed trade channels and decreased demand for paws and bile to China, and partly because everyone just wants big ungulates.This leads to tragedies every now and then. Generally, men here carry guns when in the forest, women - not so often (owning and carrying guns, especially rifles, is a major headache in Russia, and losing a gun is a nightmare). I don't have a gun and usually just carry a can of bear spray and/or a flare when I go on long walks around the village for mushrooms, berries and fishing, and just try to avoid places where chances of meeting a bear are especially high (such as wildlife trails in narrow places between water bodies). My husband generally carries an Izh-27 shotgun around, less often a rifle.

Still, the best protection against bears is a good laika dog - they can stop and/or chase away a bear (most bears prefer to flee). Laikas have strong intrinsic hate towards bears, even laikas who are generally mild-tempered and kind towards other animals. Just to illustrate, this fall our gentle, goofy dog attacked, bit and chased away a medium-sized bear that was feeding on a cranberry patch further up the trail.

Wow hope u don't get in trouble for posting the rant. Be careful.

The no politics rule here just applies to arguments and name calling concerning domestic politics.

Please feel free to discuss the conditions you must put up with in describing your life and how it impacts your everyday activities. Whatever you are comfortable posting. You won't be violating any rules here. We greatly appreciate your contributions !

I agree with you Tatiana, that a good dog is the best bear protection. Personally, I almost always bring my 77 caliber, I mean pound, German Shepherd, along. She's thus far untested against a live bear, but skillfully engages moose and runs them off until I call her back. Before that I had a 90 caliber German Shepherd who skillfully handled bears, moose, and strangers. Hopefully he passed along some wisdom to the current Shepherd. Thanks again for describing your outdoor world.

Do your remaining bear hunters use dogs to hunt them? I seem to recall reading that they used Liakas in eastern europe and Russia to hunt bears much like they do hounds here.

Thank you for the insights you are dealing with Tatiana.
My brother has 2 Norwegian Elk hounds and it is always an adventure when you go for a walk in the boreal forest here. The different barks tells you what is there and a sharp whistle stops the chase. Research in bear country is always a challenge especially when you are looking for ticks. They actually took a dog down to the zoo to " climatize it to bears " because they were working in the mountains on bear trails looking for ticks and some of the associated diseases. Dogs are good tick collectors as well, 4 legs is better than 2. That dog sure got excited when ever it saw my truck coming, cause another adventure was awaiting. Besides the hour of grooming at the end of the day- looking for ticks. And the next day looking for the missed ones. RIP Banner, Mr Pup.

Some of the people from Germany in the summer over here use their dogs( German wire hairs) for looking for " yellow pine mushrooms "( Suillus sibricus ) they have dog collars with trackers and the dog stops at a site they are about to come up. These are picked and air-expressed overseas for the restaurant trade daily. Pre-exposed do not have the fungus gnats laid in them yet

Speaking of great dogs, I got a West Siberian laika back about 1998. One of very few in north America at that time (maybe there are more now, I don't know).
What a great dog to have in the woods. Many people thought it was an Alaskan husky because of it's markings. But laikas don't have the roaming nature of huskies, huskies will take off on their own if you allow them to, whereas a laika will loupe out through the timber, return to you, then loupe out again. They are death on anything that climbs a tree, hunting by nose and sight.
My "Bo" (may he RIP) loved hunting squirrels in particular, we were not allowed to hunt marten, only trap them, but Bo didn't know that. He really loved fighting coons, and stray house cats were game as far as he was concerned.
In this picture he is eating an aplodontia that happened to wander into his yard. Whether it was squirrels or anything else, he would start by crunching the head to a pulp before swallowing it, then work his way down the body until the tail was the last thing to go down the hatch.
He's a little over-weight in this picture.

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I hope your contributions here do not use up too much of your internet bytes.
Every fall the old Baba's would go out to collect the " percherytsi " fall mushrooms and it is always involving a " search and rescue " to find them because of memory loss with old age and they become disoriented. When the tracking dogs are used it looks like a ball going back in forth in a " pin-ball machine" as someone that can barely get around in their homes moves through the forest is revitalized.

Yes the disease that are in Ixodes ticks are just not being diagnosed with the new sampling methods. Another reason they do not use " naming them" from region first described like Lymes