What could be worst than the B.A.D. curse ?

Few things are as upsetting in trapping as buying equipment you're forced to use and then have it fail.
That said, what is it with these @#$%#%$# B.A.D.'s lately ?
B.A.D.'s (or Break Away Devices) are designed to open up, should a deer or larger animal, such as livestock, accidentally step into the loop and release the said caught animal.
Those of us that have been at it awhile know that isn't a 'given' on a neck caught deer.
Should hold any coyote or similar animal though, right ?
One would think so, but lately that's not a 'given' either...

In the last several years I have walked up on, and lost, a number of coyotes.
Two this year alone. All because of the B.A.D., (a small S hook) opening up as the lunging coyote bolts away right in front of me.
These, of course are brand new 285 lb. S hooks that simply failed.
Along with that, I had over 30 this winter that when I went to remove the snare, just fell of in my hands.
They were opened up that far.
The only thing that saved me, was the coyote keeping the cable taught and not realizing just how close they were to getting away.

I live in a state that requires that we use either a deer stop and / or a B.A.D. on our snares.
Personally, I hate deer stops.
They do more damage on snared animals by moving back and forth and breaking the guard hair.
And I believe it's one of the top reasons that allow 'chew outs' on coyote catches, by not choking down the animal.
They won't save a neck caught deer...it's designed to allow a foot caught deer to slip out, when a B.A.D. does the same thing.
If you live in a state where you are forced to use both on a Cable Restraint (CR), I have to say, I feel sorry for you.
That combination is a recipe for disaster on coyotes !
If you can LEGALLY run STAINLESS cable, I'd do it !
It'll save you some fur !

I'm rambling on here, but my point is this : What is it going to take to get a decent B.A.D. to do it's job ?
Get a better S Hook / B.A.D. ? Well, sure thought I had one !
If you know anything about me, it's that I'm going to use the absolute best I can find and afford.
Probably the only B.A.D. I haven't use are Sennecker's out of Canada, so I'd like some input for those that have used them WITHOUT the use of a Kill Spring.
I live where a Kill Spring Snare is illegal for fur trappers, and that's pretty much most of the lower 48 with the exception of a few states. I wish I could legally use them.
I can't.

So, what's one to do with faulty equipment ?
Substantial Vertical Entanglement will save you in most cases, but it won't help someone snaring grasslands without the use of a Kill Pole, which is again, illegal in many states that support CR use and NO ENTANGLEMENT !
Combine that with 3/32nd cable , with a B.A.D. and a deer stop and you will end up losing some of your coyotes over time.
Although I have used a lot of Kill Poles in the past, today I catch most of coyotes alive in a 7 foot trail snare, no entanglement.
Most will be at the end of that snare, no more than a dog a dog tethered on a chain.
True, they will have mowed down every plant in that catch circle, but most will be asleep or simply lying there when I drive up.
If that S-hook has opened up enough for the cable to slip off, it can as the coyote again starts struggling and lunging at the end of the snare.

Some will ask me which company's B.A.D.s have failed, but I'm not here to bash someone's equipment.
If you wish to say, then do.

In closing, I would like to hear from other trappers who have experienced similar situations and what they've done about it, if any.

L T G.

No expert for sure but have had success with the Amberg BAD stop on the lock end of the cable using the Amberg swagger. Bullet magnum locks (also a BAD) both are rated at 285. These are lethal snares, legal in Wyoming. I weigh 220 and have (tested) them by putting a three inch diameter pole in them tightened up the lock,tied the other end above my head and stood on the pole end. Had to jump up and down a couple of times to break them. Not scientific at all but I am confident they will hold any coyote that gets in them. Asked the Game and Fish to test them to make sure they broke at 295 or less as per regs. They said their testing device gave to erratic of results so they don't use it any more. Lol. I told them how I had (tested) them, they said sounded good to them! Never have used the S hooks, too much material for my tastes. I have enjoyed reading your threads in the past L T G
keep them coming.

Welcome back LT. Great post, looking forward to it going archival!

I'm fixing to build a whole new wolf setup. We have the same regs for BAD or stop (and the goofy diverter thingy too). I lost a wolf out of a 525lb s-hook, also saved an elk with one. I went back to stops only and try to avoid setting where incidentals would be an issue, but that really limits location. Thinking of going back to the s-hook again for some more piece of mind anywhere even remotely close to elk though. Just not worth it. Interested in hearing others practical advice/experience too.

CM, that's a pretty good testing system!

I don't have to use BAD's, but there is nothing worse in my world then trying to release a full grown moose. I have used the J and S hooks (285lbs)strictly from F&T, and have not had a failure at all in the past 4 years of using them.

I switched to Marty Seneker style snares the last couple years and it has helped. I still had two break out this season and it is frustrating but I would rather not deal with a deer or some other non target in a snare. I had one get loose as I was driving up and it hurts to watch one run off right in front of you. Hopefully someone will invent a better BAD.

I have had the same experience as you LT, watch 'em open that BAD before I got a shot off, or it opend up to a piont that the constant tension saved me. I have never purchasec heaver BAD's but I would caution anyone that does, are they not just made of heaver gage wire, if they are, an officer with a micrometer or calipers( who know what he is talking about) is going to give you trouble. Now what I did start to test is t-bar shock spring at the conection point of snare,, oops CR,, to the anchor piont,,( IT DOES NOT HELP CLOSE THE LOOP, SO ALL YOU CRYBABIES NEED NOT POST.) in a effort to ease the shock of a yote hitting the end of the CR at mach 1, Unfortunatly I was not able to connect before the end of the season,

My experiences have been similar. I am trying to help the deer herd not hurt it, but using CRs that has been the opposite. Plus with all the BAD failures then add on the potential for chew outs I have come to the conclussion it is in my best interest to use them as rarely as possible, which sucks, snares are a great tool (illegal here), CRs are a joke.

In Virginia we have to have BOTH the BAD and Deer stop if we have any part of the loop more than 12 inches off the ground. It is an epic fail as everyone here can guess. I have been good on chew outs so far, but they aren't lethal either.

I've gone to making mine with 1\16th's for the loop, tuna swivel, then 3\32nds body to get about 6 feet length. My hope it the smaller wire will help with lethality if I can get entanglement. With the deer stop this year I have several reds that were very much alive at check time.

What type of cable are you using ?
I use galvanized Korean 1X19 Dry cable. It's the best I've used.
Stainless, although more costly is harder to chew through.
I always use an inline 600# swivel.

LT, at the risk of sounding stupid, I don't know where it is made. I'm using the last of a 500 footer of Galv 7 by 7 now, and honestly when I can run without the deer stop (loop under 12" so crawl unders, some very tight fox areas, etc) it has been MONEY in that set up.

The Tuna or barrel swivel has been a great add in for me too. Sure it costs more and takes time and MAY cause a refusal or two but I can make loops ahead of time and in a few minutes crimp a new loop onto the tail and be back in business most of the time.

All I can say is it's too bad you cant use a dispatch spring, given the inconsistent quality of your components. Move to a different state, I suppose .

I haven't had the cause to use a B.A.D. without a dispatch spring yet, so I haven't witnessed this scenario .

I started using 385lb senneker bads this year and they are the worst thing I have ever put on a snare in my life. If you want coyotes getting caught for a few seconds then running away, then by all means by these things. But they are terrible.
Out of 6 coyotes I caught with these bads only 1 was dead. The other 5 were gone to live and kill another day.
I started by using s hooks from the hardware store and I’ll end using s hooks from the hardware store. They are a bit big, but they will never open up!

We're trying to get a BAD option on snares here vs. a mandatory deer stop on every snare. I'd rather not have posts on their potential inconsistency on the public forum.

I have used 285" BADs on my killpole snares with very good success on leg caught deer, all them have opened the BADs and escaped. I've yet to have any coyotes open them and escape either. I'm not sure who makes the BADs I'm using but the snares come from Road Runner Snares.

I'm guessing you're joking...
I wouldn't give up my yearly contract just because I lose a few coyotes.

Yes , I was joking about moving to a different state .

I did not loose any in CRs but came very close. The BAD was opened up almost to the point of loss. Agree the deer stops are useless, BADs I'm good but not if they straighten on yotes. Leg caught Deer seem to straighten the S bads about the second lunge. Don't get me started on Michigan's lame CR laws.......We need efficient tools to manage coyotes!!

I have to use deer stops, and on the ranch I use these same breaks just in case some beef hers tied up in a snare.
I almost had a yote get out this year. If he had loosened up he might have been gone.

You certainly hit the nail on the head about BADS not be a given on neck caught deer.I found that out the hard way.Being a newcomer to CR's back then I thought I had it all figured out and had the bases covered in just such cases.Certainly didn't work the way I'd envisioned.

Who is it? MI, MO, WI and PA? Our CR regs are crap

I've had several this winter that were exactly like yours as soon as the tension was removed from the cable the restraint fell off from a bent BAD. And on the other hand had some BAD that didn't even slightly bend. I guess I'll have to experiment with different devices next season. I had a few chew outs but I can fix that issue with 1x19 cable.

Last season I lost 5 coyotes to BAD failure. 3 happened right In front of me.
I use the swaged type BAD.
This year I caught 33 coyotes In CRs. Never had a BAD fail this season. But they did work on all the deer catches.

Who's product and what poundage ?

Rally Hess 380Lb BADs Crush On type I don't trust those S hook types.
The first 40+ Inches 1X19X3/32s. A barrel swivel and the rest of the CR 7X7 X 3/32s, Toss the loop end after a catch and buy new loop ends and re use the tag end.
Haven't had a chew out or BAD that went wrong on a coyote. And they preformed like they were suppose to on the deer I caught.

Mi are far worse than the other CR states. Their CR's can't close tighter than 4.25 or 4.5" can't recall exactly, but its not good.

Deer stops set at 2.5" will still kill coyotes if you can use a real snare around them. They will release a foot caught deer too. A neck caught deer, unless its a monster and hits hard enough to break the BAD on the first lunge is still going to be there when you get there. If you can't handle that you best not set many snares or CR's.

It's 4.25, It just plane sucks. All that's needed is a Bad period game over. Ya outa see what they do to a nice red fox.. Who thinks this stuff up??

I remember reading, Craig O'gorman wrote that a coyote on an 8 foot run can at times exert up to 400 lbs. of pressure. different coyotes have different personalities so I'm sure that varies by the animal. A 285 lb break away seems like this could be very common place unfortunately.

I use Martys BADs and they are weak in comparison to what you are using .. weak as in the different methods of posting opening weights . Ive used his 265s for 3 years and find they open at 126 on the US scale , Im jumping to his 385 s, they open at 236 on US scale . Its a wonder we held anything when using the skinny ones . He says to overcrimp them , teardrop shaped , maybe thats what saved us , but after losing a bunch this year I'll risk the bigger ones . These are all with kill springs , sorry no experience with out one . Needs to be a standardized scale . As for deer catches , you are right , even these light weight ones kill deer . Im not bashing Marty or his products , I know him and he's a good guy .. He has the game figured out , just a different way of measuring stuff . I get stuff from Kris at Dakotaline too , and the 285# BADs from them are MUCH heavier than Martys 385s.

The thing with BAD’s is they need to be tested the same way each time. It’s hard to compare testing on a machine to that of an actual catch. Yet “lab” testing is all we have. At Dakotaline we use a straight pull with a 3” loop. Yes there is some variance between tests but not a lot. Our testing machine is very close to the one the one State of ND uses. They seem to be out in front of other States

If we were to do a straight pull of our 285 BAD without a snare loop the BAD would start to open around 160 pounds and be fully open at 170 pounds. I know there is debate about whether a straight pull is comparable to an animal lunging? I believe you’d need a highly qualified physics expert to settle this. For consistent measurement some States are mirroring what ND has.

Raymond Thompson must of either had physics expertise or just had a good mind. As I recall he used a machine with a pendulum type weight. I can’t even begin to understand his thinking on it. There is a federal study from the 1970’s that was done. It focused on snares and deer. I can’t seem to find it right now. One of the findings was that a longer an animal is caught, the more stress is put on BADs causing them to slowly open. The quicker you kill your coyotes the better. In cable restraint states, the earlier you check the better.

Dakotaline will be offering a 350# S-BAD this year. We’ve had 350# J-BADS for a long time but the S-BAD is a better fit for camlocks. Of course the heavier the BAD the likelihood of holding a leg caught deer increases. Personally I will never go higher than 285#. My coyotes are smaller and my laws allow for a quick kill. Plus, I am no cowboy. I don’t have the knack for wrestling a live deer (I have in the past and am pretty much wasted the rest of the day).

Variables
There are moving dynamics when relying on BADs. Two winters ago I caught a buck by two front legs. My only solution was to give him a firm crack on the forehead and quickly remove the snare. He wandered away as did I.

The wire we use for our BAD’s at Dakotaline comes from the same company and source every time. They tell us that there will always be, although minimal, some variance within the batch of wire.

All BADs need to be applied with a tool. Whether a wire BAD or crimp on BAD there will always be minimal variations in the application of the BAD.

Will your caught critter run down an incline?

Testing done by the North Dakota GFP, and the State university showed a higher degree of inconsistency on the crimp-on BADs as compared to the wire BAD’s. They have provided no explanation for this. Perhaps some of this could be related to variations in cable?

I doubt anyone will ever come up with the perfect BAD simply because of all the variables involved in the field. I will always uses BAD’s. They work for me whether it’s an unexpected heard of cattle or a yearling deer.
Mark

You always hear: use a longer cable extension to let them get a run at it to set the snare. That may good if you aren't using a BAD but if you are I wouldn't opt to go with longer cable using BAD.

At my age I'd rather loose a couple coyotes than deal with a big cantankerous buck or doe. I use your S hook BADs Mark, had a couple close calls on yotes but no losses. Some of the yotes here are big in my grand CR state... Keep up the great work!

Silk I realize what your saying but all my CRs are 10 footers, I lost more yotes with short Crs than long, doesn't make sense but is what it is. All have barrel swivels and BADs.

Trappergbus,

I was surprised too see in the study how many pounds of pressure a coyote can apply with longer cable so I guess that's why I said that. I've always just used 8ft. of cable nothing shorter or longer so I don't have experience with using longer cable but would hesitate to do that just because of study results.

I've always been partial to the crimped ferrule BAD and I think it's only rated for 270 lbs. The S hook might be what helps you at 10ft because it's rated for 285 lbs. So that might be factor when deciding what to do too.

Thanx for the reply Mark and yes there needs to be a stabndardized method and test for BADs so they can be compared . Thanx also for the great product lines and service .

I understand your reasoning.

I agree with the poster that pointed out a BAD on a long snare CAN BE a real problem !

I want to see the video of Mark Steck wrestling a live deer!

LOL that would be cool! It would be very educational..

I was gonna change to all 385 # BADs from Marty but after talking with him I have changed my mind and will stick with the light weight 265s he offers . I will overcrimp them like he says and risk losing the odd coyote . My snare setup for next year is totally different than the past tho , and I am running a 5/64 lock on 1/16" 1x19 cable from Marty because it is much stronger than my former cable . The oversize lock closes like lightning and grips tight with no slip at all , a buddy used this setup this past year and all his catches were DOA with it . Im also trying a few sets with magnum springs where Ive had troubles in the past with getting a quick kill . Hope this ends the chew out problem I had on a couple , pretty hard to chew out or open a BAD if they are dead .

H380 can you explain the "overcrimp"

Yup, instead of crimping the s hook into a nice round circle it should be shaped like a teardrop . Be careful not to crimp so hard that it distorts the shape of the teardrop and end passes the main shank and is bent , this make cause breakage . I had a couple coyotes open BADs last year as a result of hitting snare hard and a few more that resulted because they were just plain in there too long and not quick kills . I did purchase some 385s to use on steep hillsides where gravity is working in their favor to open the BAD .. A magnum spring is going on those as well . Marty said be careful where I use the 385 as they will definitely hold deer .

Me too Gerald!!

Anyone that is stuck with relaxing locks and no entanglement I feel for you. I have had great results with Dakota lines #285 s-hook. Can't say that about some others. But then again that is with choke spring and entanglement.

Glad to see you on here LT.

Jayme the break aways on your snares are Dakotaline #285 j hooks.

That's true to a point. But If I can find a coyote track and hang a CR. In about 80% of the time I'll catch It eventually. You just have to play the cards your dealt.

I use CRs built by Rally Hess with a crimp on BAD. so far I haven't had any coyotes self release In the past season.