Dog knot

Could some of you guys post pics of your version of dog knot stakes . And what size washers or lock washers you prefer?

I’ve always used just plain rebar or smooth stakes , I want to try the dog knots .
Thanks,
Don

Not trying to be a smart arse, but I think you're much better off cross staking when using stakes. Nevertheless, I'd be interested seeing what others have come up with in reproducing the dog knot.

I have made them for a few folks...….imagine 4 rings of weld around the stake..about 4" apart, I make 4 rings on a 24" stake

The original.

That’s pretty simple right there ! Anyone use the stretched out lock washer ?

im with mainer

Every anchoring system has its pros and cons. You have to make a decision of what's best for you based on cost, portability, effectiveness, availability, etc.

I love dog knot stakes . . . for nostalgia. For decades the dog knot was the preferred method. It worked in a variety of soil types, was fairly lightweight, and since the stake was permanently attached to the trap, if the animal pulled out, the stake (and long chain) acted as a drag and often the animal could be recovered.

There are other staking systems that have advantages, like your double staked rebar. The disadvantage to double staking is weight (carrying two stakes instead of one), ease of use, and soil types. Cable disposable stakes have the advantage of weight and inexpensive cost, but in rocky soils, its pretty easy to shear off the soft, aluminum ferrels. Cable stakes and steel stakes have one other disadvantage: you have to drive the stake ALL THE WAY IN to cover them.

I like chain stakes for that reason. They are light, easy to use, cost effective and you drive the stake in as far as you think you need to, not all the way like steel or cable stakes. But like I say, the ALL have advantages and disadvantages.

Tracy can you give the dimensions on that stake please? I may make a few just for the heck of it. Just need the length and what size rod. Also are they cut at an angle on the end or flat or pointed? Thank you.

~ADC~

That one is 18" long. Don't know if everyone understands, but the dog knot was made in various lengths. I have some that are 16", 24", 30" and 36". They are all 1/2" diameter and the ends are super sharp, forged 4 surfaces. The head is 3/4" across.

Hope that helps.

Terrific Thanks! If I ever get around to it, I'll probably make them 24", seems to be a popular length on metal stakes. May make them with a chain link or chestnut ring between the washers that will fit a HD J-hook and a nut top, just to add my own twist to them.

~ADC~

That would be a good modification. What you need is a good swiveling system that doesn’t have to be permanently attached, but still keep the stake attached to thetrap in case of a pull out. That way if you want to change stakes or stake sizes, it isn’t an act of Congress to do it.

I know that dog knot stakes worked for years and held 10’s of thousands of coyotes but, I can’t bring my self to use only 1 on a set ? I know it’s smooth rod and hard to pump but I guess I’m over cautious.

Dog knot stakes are great if you can find them. I used them back in the day but foolishly sold what I had, which is another story. As Laz points out, there are pros and cons to every staking system. While I would love to have a bunch of dog knots to use -- and I'm keeping my eye out -- there are more feasible alternatives like cross staking and earth anchors. I use around 60% earth anchors (with chain) to 40% cross staking on my line. It all depends on the soil conditions.

Dog knots are a western stake, designed by Mike Ayers for the sandy soils of western states - correct me on my history if I'm mistaken. Like Laz, the nostalgia of having and using dog knots is not a trivial thing. The older I get the more I appreciate the wisdom and innovation of those trappers who came before us. It also allows me to relive if only in bits and pieces the glory days of the 70s and early 80s.

Thanks for the tutorial guys ! I was not even aware of that style of stake . The ones I’ve seen are made with a lock washer welded in a spiral to the lower 1/3 of the stake . I see no reason that the one shown wouldn’t be more than adequate for my application. Most of my trapping is done in about 8” of black dirt with various types of clay the rest of the way down. The only reason I ever went to earth anchors is because I went to checking after work instead of before. 18 more months and I will go back to checking in the AM .

I had 18 and 24'' one from Mike Ayers. The vague of that stake is the knot. The knot provides a pivot point that makes it so you can only pull that stake out if you pull it from straight up. I have some pictures of coyotes with dog knot stakes up out of the ground about 8'' but they could not pull the stake because it won't come out when pulled at an angle. The pounded points on those things were hard. I still use some of these but one thing you will need if you use them is long chains at least 30'' long - 36'' is better. It's a good system but most people use short chains now.

Larry makes a great point . . . and not to beat a dead horse, but the genius of the stake was that if you drove the stake in the ground and then pulled it out (i.e. you didn't make a catch), the stake usually comes out fairly easily. However, if you make a catch, the animal circling the stake drags dirt and small rocks down into the stake hole where they land on top of the "knot." it then acts like a disposable and its very hard to get out. Like Larry says, many a time I've seen a coyote with the stake half out of the ground but still well held because he'd tamped so much dirt and rock down on the knot that the stake wasn't coming out.

Also, on the long chain, the G men had that huge swivel, heavy chain and long chain for several reasons. One of them was that it helped pump the stake out of the ground without tools. If you hold the trap in one hand and "whip" the chain toward the stake, that 3 feet of chain will most times pop that stake right out of the ground.

While every staking system has its pros and cons, the old government 3N with a long, heavy chain, heavy swivels and a dog knot stake had a lot of advantages and stood the test of time for tens of thousands of coyotes.

I think it is my favorite set up because it wears them out. Seems like they don't fight the heavy trap and chain near as much as the short chained lighter traps.Good posts.

Mike Ayers was from Colorado. I remember as a kid going to his place with my dad to pick up dog knots. All I can remember is piles and piles of them laying around.

There are still a bunch out floating around. I look for them because the "lawyer" will buy about as many as I can find. Only problem is they have to be priced right, or he wont touch them. That's where having a better golden tongue than a lawyer comes in handy.

Indeed. Anyone that can find an old dead stump and sell it as art has a more golden tongue than I ever possessed.

Back when I started trapping coyotes I used a long chain with a single stake . Not because I knew anything about trapping coyotes but because I knew if you put a 65# English coon hound on a short chain ( dog leash) with a single stake he would pump it up. But not enough in one night to get loose. If you put that same hound on a 15’ chain at the house he wouldn’t pump the stake at all , lol ! It only made sense to me that a 30 or 35# coyote couldn’t pump out an 18 or 20” stake over night if you gave him a 30” piece of chain.

I also added a shock spring to that long ( cheap ) chain after seeing a chain break . I will go back to a shock spring with a good chain !

Thanks again guys for all your help ! I know I can hold a coyote with a 20” smooth stake but it can’t hurt to add a little insurance.

For the life of me im having troubles visualizing how the dog knot system works. I cant see how that small lump is going to hold a yote! Or is the long chain the key to it all similar to portable pockets? I had a coyote hound that could pump a 24" rebar stake on 20' of chain! It was constantly jumping getting a wave action in the chain.i'd love to find a easier alternative to cable stakes for mid season relocation! Im wore slick after pulling 100 wolf fang anchors

Cross stakes.

I have hard ground. I can get away with single stakes (on short chains even). I know a lot of ground you can’t.

I had always wanted a Dog Knot stake to have in my collection. This last year one of my coyote trapping buddies from out West sent me one! So cool.

In Tom Krause's books he talked in one section about how to produce a make shift dog knot stake. He claimed it worked pretty well.

Mac

Question is that whole stake drove in? Dragging chain down in the dirt as you drive it in? I trap mainly crop fields I can see that working if I have it pictured correctly. That set up shouldn't be hard to replicate. I see it failing misserabley in sandy conditions but hard clay it should hold tight!

Tony that cold shut and washers are just sitting there, they will slide to the top once you pound in the stake . I personally wouldn’t try the single stake without the long chain. I’m also wondering if the cold shut or something similar is better than a crunch proof type swivel to keep from getting the ratcheting affect that you can get from the crunch proof.

I'm thinking a chestnut ring would be a great option to the cold shut. They wouldn't grab the stake like a swivel would. You could attach your trap swivel with a second J hook and keep good swiveling.

on portable pockets I use 5/8 smooth rod and 1" flat washers with a hole drilled in the washer to attach a j hook. Thanks don I thought those washers was floating. Now I don't understand why not just use re bar with the top few inchs smoothed down to help prevent pumping. I cant see that little knot creating enough friction to stop a determind yote

Until now I’ve used 5/8” smooth rod also but last year I came across a hundred 1/2” rebar 20” to 24” long and decided to try a dozen this year . I started using pogo’s the year the FTA was in Illinois and have been using a Wolf fang since they came out. I don’t use more than a dozen and a half a year right now , but once I retire I don’t plan to pull a hundred cables a year . Stakes will be the way to go unless I’m in a likely area for theft .

Tony, The whole stake gets driven in but the cold shut slides up and down the stake so when it is driven in it is up at the top like a regular stake. I cut the two washers off mine and welded a large washer at the top so I could use the chestnut rings like ADC says. I do not keep them attached to my traps but a lot of guys do. Either way works fine.

Your guys god must be more powerful then mine Id never trust a single stake ! I've had coons runoff with dps from single stakesi got a bucket full of those R.R 16" giant lag bolts and welded a 2" helical on them as coon stakes. Should of went 4" then I believe they would be perminent

1/2 inch pipe cut in 1/2/ peaces.
slide over 1/2 rebar up 5 inchs weld in place
Thats what I make

Think of it like a shallow disposable that you forgot to tug on to engage it horizontally. In sandy soils the dog knot performs a similar function, except that it (the knot) requires the catch to engage it through long chains that pump the stake while at the same time compacting the soil as it reaches a certain point for the knot to perform the same horizontal function as an engaged disposable stake. In fact, it's the same principle but the right soil conditions are needed for it to be effective in the same way.

Rebar as a single stake doesn't have that same advantages because there's nothing to grab the soil in the same way. However, above the ground it has too much to grab, which is why the smooth rod is an advantage. You want the chestnut or lap link to be at ground level keeping the angle of attack or pull at 90 degrees to the ground so the knot can do its work.

After you drive a dog knot of any kind make sure you cave in the dirt around the stake

How you been you old New Mexican ? That sounds like a pretty easy way to make them Wayne, thanks .

I believe Wayne's method is similar to JC Conner's ...just a welded lug of metal to create more ground contact...makes it more difficult to pull.

THAT is how my customers have had me make them

This brings up another question, ADC did you ever find an easy way to put a point on rebar stakes ?

Has anybody did like I'm sure they did in the day by drawing a point out by using a forge or a torch hammering the point out???

Goof ball we are good here buddy
Trip hammer is how they were pointed

Glad to hear your doing good ! The trip hammer on a red hot tip would do the trick . I don’t have a coal forge or a trip hammer but I might be able to come up with a substitute. I remember Jamie asking about this a while back but don’t remember the answer. The 5/8” smooth rod that I’ve used in the past was cut by me on a chop saw , I just cut all of them twice as long as they needed to be then cut them in the middle at a 45 and used that as my point. This rebar was given to me already cut so I will need to put points on them while I’m installing knots and nuts.

Have a oxy actel torch? I torched mine off, then slipped a washer on and reheated the rod and then mushroomed the end.

Those dog knots are they forged in or welded on, look forged.

The doctor Bob bent stake mod might be worth looking into also.

Rebar is just one more heavy thing I don't want to carry, almost all disposables for myself.

No sir. I did not! It can be done many ways but its very labor intensive to do a lot of them. The best I come up with is putting one end in a drill and spinning it while holding the other end to a grinder. Tough to do with 5' kill poles! lol

I’m thinking maybe back to the chop saw for a quick cut on two sides. It doesn’t need to be super sharp just somewhat pointed . The 45 * cut works but will go to one side , especially if you hit a stone.
Thanks Jamie.

Wr weight is not a problem as I will only be a few feet from the tailgate of my truck. The ones in the pic that Tracy put on are forged I think but Wayne talked about welding a short piece of pipe on , this or a lock washer will be the easiest for me to do .

Are you saying Bobs stakes are bent on porpoise? I had seen pictures and assumed he had tough ground , lol .

If I was a few feet from the truck, and running rebar , i would just cross stake with chestnut rings. I like to tinker, but I know cross stakes are not coming out.

wr I know what your saying ( you prefer two stakes ) I know that I don’t need them for my ground . I’m just trying to get a little insurance in the event that I hit a soft spot or slightly questionable ground .

I'd try them especially on long chains, but I don't want to have to worry about gear.

Ttt