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Dye/rust.

Posted By: crabtrap

Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 07:20 PM

I just dyed some new traps and a few old ones yesterday with logwood like i do every year. Hung em up in a tree and Over night it rained and they got really rusty. Never had this happen before what did i do worng?
Posted By: #11

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 07:49 PM

Which ones got really rusty, the new ones, the old ones or all of them.
Posted By: crabtrap

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 08:43 PM

They all did.
Posted By: BigBob

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 08:45 PM

Did you wax them?
Posted By: crabtrap

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 09:12 PM

No
Posted By: Steelflight

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 09:20 PM

The dye doesn't protect from the elements. As far as I know
Posted By: QuietButDeadly

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 09:24 PM

If there was not a good coat of rust on the surface when you dyed them, there was nothing for the tannin in the dye to convert and create a barrier to keep water off the steel and cause rust. Just because they change color does not mean they are protected.

The purpose of the logwood dye is to react with the iron oxide (rust), converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black surface coating to prevent the reaction of the steel with water that will form more rust.

For some reason, the process you used did not create the iron tannate coating.

Lots of things could have caused that.
Posted By: TomInVT

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/07/19 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by QuietButDeadly
If there was not a good coat of rust on the surface when you dyed them, there was nothing for the tannin in the dye to convert and create a barrier to keep water off the steel and cause rust. Just because they change color does not mean they are protected.

The purpose of the logwood dye is to react with the iron oxide (rust), converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black surface coating to prevent the reaction of the steel with water that will form more rust.

For some reason, the process you used did not create the iron tannate coating.

Lots of things could have caused that.


I was wondering exactly how dye helped protect the metal. Thanks for the explanation.
Posted By: AJE

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/12/19 04:29 AM

Does dip interact similar to steel as dye does?
Posted By: tjm

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/12/19 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by AJE
Does dip interact similar to steel as dye does?

No. Dip is paint of a sort, it coats over the rust and hides it. Various types of dip resemble fence paint made by the same company or driveway sealer, or floor wax but all act as an overcoat.

Two things that I know of that convert rust are tannin and phosphoric acid. Given enough time the rust itself can form a protective coating as in weathering steel used in construction. You can see this on old farm equipment sometimes called a patina.

I bought some red powder a few years ago that was labeled 'trap dye' and rather than react with the rust like tannin it turned the traps black but kinda gritty and when hit with water it had removed all the rust like an acid such as vinegar might, Those traps rusted again over night, twas the only time I ever used red powder.
Posted By: tjm

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/12/19 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Steelflight
The dye doesn't protect from the elements. As far as I know

If the rust conversion is heavy enough and complete enough it does. But any area that was not rusty won't get the conversion coating and will still be open to new rust, and any area that gets the coating knocked off will rust new. Think of this conversion like Parkerizing a gun. Bluing or browning of a gun is an example of rust forming the protective coating, both are forms of controlled rusting.
Posted By: trappergbus

Re: Dye/rust. - 10/12/19 04:06 PM

For the transfer to happen there must be heat , I boil em hard for 1/2 hour to promote the transfer and sterilize the trap. Then rinse when removed from the dye water, hang over night to dry then wax in pure wax. I used Renno's dye this year, pretty impressed. A good dye will protect the steel to a point, wax takes the moisture right out of the equation. For rust to occur their needs to be bare steel, air and water. Take one away no rust can happen.


No such thing as impervious low odor trap coating, it all wears off after catches. More so in sand and gravel.
Posted By: AJE

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/05/20 05:32 AM

I think wax is the key.
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/05/20 04:22 PM

After 2 catches all your coating will be wore off End of story.

Put a dyed only trap In the ground and tell me after a week or so how much protection It gives that trap.
Wax only will give you the most protection for the money.

I powder coat my canine traps. It's expensive but It holds up for years. Power wash today set traps tomorrow.
Posted By: Backbreaker

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/05/20 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by The Beav
After 2 catches all your coating will be wore off End of story.

Put a dyed only trap In the ground and tell me after a week or so how much protection It gives that trap.
Wax only will give you the most protection for the money.

I powder coat my canine traps. It's expensive but It holds up for years. Power wash today set traps tomorrow.

What is powder coat?
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/05/20 06:00 PM

It's a coating that's electrically Induced to the steel.
Posted By: Cootswatter

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 12:00 AM

How much wear from catches with the powder coating? Sounds like a great idea.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 12:12 AM

I'll be a bit of a contrarian to The Beav but not in defense of rust and dye. Abrasion will wear away powder coating and it chips quite easily. Not saying it isn't a good finish but it's not bulletproof, either.
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 12:50 AM

So far I haven't had any Issues with chipping and abrasion has yet to become a problem you just don't get much If any movement from a coyote locked up In well set up trap. You do get scratches and bite marks but they are very minimal. Those scratches down to bare metal will rust but It's so minimal It's not an issue.
Ease of clean up Is what makes It One of the best trap coatings.

And there Is a liquid that you can use to touch up those scratches.
Posted By: AJE

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 02:13 AM

I really like Duke DP's, but their powder coating wears off quickly. I don't know if Beav does his own powder coating, but I think his powder coating holds better.
Posted By: QuietButDeadly

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 05:17 AM

I had some new traps powder coated and have used them primarily for coyotes about 5 years. They have got chips and bite marks for sure, some worse than others. Overall not terrible but enough to have some rust spots so after about 3 years I started boiling them in walnut hulls to convert the rust. If I am going to need to dye them anyway, I probably will not get anymore powder coated.
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by AJE
I really like Duke DP's, but their powder coating wears off quickly. I don't know if Beav does his own powder coating, but I think his powder coating holds better.


There must be different types of powder coating. Those DPs that are powder coated are nothing like the traps I have had powder coated. A decent powder coating would make those DPs a lot more expensive then they are.
I get a deal because I know some one. But I was told that a #3 sized foot hold would cost about $5.00 per trap. So you can see that those DPs aren't really powder coated.
Posted By: QuietButDeadly

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/06/20 07:01 PM

Yep, that price sounds about right. I payed a little less than that for MB 550s, chain and all but that was 5 years ago. I did not know anyone and was just a walk in customer. Think I had about 4 dozen done at one time.
Posted By: MuddyMike

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/07/20 05:14 PM

[Linked Image]

plated with a heavy zinc chromate have been in the ground since nov 10th have been making catches and still no rust at all on the traps. I have thought about doing my dps as well to see what a coon can do to the plating. so far I feel it was worth it to we will find out when it comes season end and I can evaluate them all outta the ground after season ends in feb. im hoping its just a quick power wash job and hand them to dry off then stored away for next season. I hope it protects my investment for years to come. tight chains guys
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/07/20 05:19 PM

what kind of a price?
Posted By: MuddyMike

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/07/20 05:52 PM

150 for 3 dozen not counting the shipping to and from. im not sure what the shipping was casue when I asked the owner of the company I work for to look into getting them plated said hed take care of the costs. so it didn't cost me a dime. I work for a great company. I would assume shipping to be between 50 and 75 bucks they were sent ups in 2 boxes. the company that did it is in Chicago. Midwest rust proofing.
Posted By: Taximan

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/07/20 05:53 PM

Neat!
Posted By: MuddyMike

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/07/20 06:00 PM

[Linked Image]

caught last night traps been in ground for 11 days rain snow and a little salt for antifreeze dirty but still no rust. dry fired the trap a few times and did the remake.
Posted By: Gremcat

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/09/20 11:24 AM

Zinc should hold up well. I’m thinking a flamed zinc with epoxy overtop would hold up very well.

QBD, there’s a steel furniture maker in Durham that’s a very good friend. He’s made me some outdoor stuff with flamed zinc and then dry brushed epoxy that have held up very well. The epoxy is either two colors or dry brushing creates that look and it’s somewhat textured but not in a way that would snag/drag on itself. Being in N.C. you might try him.

I started with Duke DPs last year when my son wanted us to start trapping. I suspect they are similar to Durakote/Cerakote finish vs. powder coat. They scratch pretty easy. It’s a hard coating but thinner than most powder coat I’m used to.

NP3 would be an awesome coating to try if it wasn’t so costly and didn’t have a shine. Then again judging from the prior pics shiny zinc worked fine. NP3 is also a sacrificial metal coating like zinc. It’s nickel impregnated with Teflon flakes so it gets more and more slippery as it wears. I’m thinking traps would fire pretty fast. I don’t think it would let legs slip since it’s holding tension not abrasive jaws that Trappers look for I think.

I’ve had the MB550s not get rusty enough to fully convert in the tannin dye. They seemed to rust again and/or it came off after the wax wore. I just let them rust all summer (on purpose I tell myself😏) and they took the tannin dye conversion very nicely this year. I’ve been so busy they are all still waiting to see dirt though.
Posted By: AJE

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/12/20 11:21 PM

I set my 1st KO Jr Friday. I must say I was impressed. As for the nice coating that it comes with, I wonder what it is & how it holds up. I guess my point is It seems nice how it was all ready to go for a bobcat set. I didn't even degrease it or anything. Not many traps, if any, seem to have that luxury. Maybe they could still be waxed, I don't know, but it appears dipping or dyeing is unnecessary, at least now.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/13/20 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Gremcat


I’ve had the MB550s not get rusty enough to fully convert in the tannin dye.


I tossed a dozen in some wet leaves and let them set for a month. Never did rust much.
Posted By: AJE

Re: Dye/rust. - 01/18/20 05:07 AM

Maybe it's that high quality steel the MBs are made from
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