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What causes excess foot damage on K9s

Posted By: Yes sir

What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 04:55 PM

The big trap thread and several people's posts got me wondering. I've always thought it was just the effect of a foot sliding back and forth in the jaws. Obviously the sharper edge and narrower the jaw face the more effects that sliding has. Some have brought up things like strength of springs, offsets and weight of traps. Some have brought up shoulder damage. I've never been able to see shoulder damage on a coyote. I know when trapping wolves for relocation or collaring they use toothed jaws to eliminate the foot from sliding and causing damage. I know my offset jawed traps are never closed to the point it's metal on metal so it's still the foot that's holding the jaws open so I don't see how offsets put any less pressure on the foot..?? What's every one's thoughts? I'd assume the guys that have live marketed coyote would have the most knowledge on this subject. I know normally my cats caught in big traps have zero damage and they have thinner skin and usually smaller in size than most of my coyotes.
Posted By: rick olson

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 05:05 PM

Sharp jaws,improper swiveling,weight of the trap,poor lock up = sliding off paw and pull outs sometimes no off set jaws but you can have damage with off set too for stated causes mentioned earlier to big of a trap for the animal etc.
Posted By: Boone Liane

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 06:25 PM

Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.
Posted By: garart

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 06:47 PM

I couldn't agree more with what B.L. posted above, his observations are spot on!
Posted By: Ant Grit

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 07:10 PM

I agree with everything stated above. I also believe there is a certain size trap for each animal, and yes i believe some traps are just to big. I also think the more you can comfort an animal (wide face jaws, proper length of chain, shock springs, drags, and spring strength) the less they will fight a trap and less damage. A friend who trapped for the live market used 1 1/2s that were base plated, laminated, shocksprings, and #2 music wire springs. He told me that by only catching them by the toes they would heal up alot faster than if caught with a larger trap.
Posted By: Law Dog

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 07:24 PM

I run MJs with the wider cast O/S jaws 4 coiled, often I need to look closely or feel the pad to know what foot it was caught on if caught the night before. Held many reds and badgers with similar results not perfect but impressive.

Have held lunging yotes by only 2 pads before after snow cover the trap causing it to fire sooner then planned then catching the pads, I doubt that yote would of been there with a regular style trap.

Stamped jaws, weak traps, restricted swivels, lack of swivels, improper pan tension. Im a fan of lower, level pans but not huge pans or huge traps. Not that huge traps donít have a place on some lines just not mine.
Posted By: Bob Jameson

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 07:36 PM

I trapped live market for many years. At that time my go to trap was the soft catch #3 victor coil spring trap for coyotes and # 1-1/2 coil soft catch when targeting fox exclusively. Some had beefer Taos add on springs that JC Conner makes. They added just enough extra fire power and no over pressure in my experience. Things worked out well with that set up. At that time they were the go too tool.

Wide surface jaw faces on traps provide a better hold and helps minimize slippage and does a center swivel point.The older model #3 soft catch traps had what I deemed weak springs and IMO too weak to accomadate adequate power up of the wider surface area that the padded jaw traps possessed.

You didn't want too much finish dirt cover on a finished set either.

One important thing I did find that the time the animals were in the traps were the key to minimizing foot trauma and temperature/weather conditions.

I would run most times very early in the morning. On occassion you will get an animal that is very aggressive at fighting ,lunging and exhibiting pogo like behavior after capture. These are the ones that are canidates for foot trauma. I didn't like long chains for that reason, too much room to move. 3 swivel points were best, no shock springs. I experienced very marginal observable foot trauma over the years. Most just had a creased indentation over the foot and pad area.
Posted By: sneaky

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 09:00 PM

I think animals fight traps with shock springs harder than well swiveled solid chain setups. They can feel the give in the spring and take that as a weak point and keep trying to exploit it. Once they hit a solid stop on a non- spring setup they learn quick that isn't going to work. Your mileage may vary.
Posted By: Tofan

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.
Posted By: Wanna Be

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/08/22 11:16 PM

Iíll be the odd man out here, ALL my foot damage has come from offsetsÖK9ís only. Slowly building back to closed jaw traps. No damage with them.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tofan
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.



So your saying the pressure causes the damage not the sliding back and forth, which would be greater in your scenario. None of my offset traps have enough offset to allow your scenario to happen. From the wolf biologist I read he said the sawing back and forth caused more damage than a trap with teeth. I've read the trapping in sand is harder on the foot. I'm guessing because the sand actually acts as an abrasive in the sliding back and forth in the jaws
Posted By: Boone Liane

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:54 AM

Iím not gonna argue the offset thing. I know what I see in hundreds of catches a year using both.

They may fool John Q Public, and thatís fine.

I stand by what I said initially.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:58 AM

Where the live market guys when you need em ?
Posted By: Boone Liane

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Bob Jameson
I trapped live market for many years. At that time my go to trap was the soft catch #3 victor coil spring trap for coyotes and # 1-1/2 coil soft catch when targeting fox exclusively. Some had beefer Taos add on springs that JC Conner makes. They added just enough extra fire power and no over pressure in my experience. Things worked out well with that set up. At that time they were the go too tool.

Wide surface jaw faces on traps provide a better hold and helps minimize slippage and does a center swivel point.The older model #3 soft catch traps had what I deemed weak springs and IMO too weak to accomadate adequate power up of the wider surface area that the padded jaw traps possessed.

You didn't want too much finish dirt cover on a finished set either.

One important thing I did find that the time the animals were in the traps were the key to minimizing foot trauma and temperature conditions.

I would run most times very early in the morning. On occassion you will get an animal that is very aggressive at fighting ,lunging and exhibiting pogo like behavior after capture. These are the ones that are canidates for foot trauma. I didn't like long chains for that reason, too much room to move. 3 swivel points were best, no shock springs. I experienced very marginal observable foot trauma over the years. Most just had a creased indentation over the foot and pad area.


My old mans go to live trap in the fox days was a 1.5 woodstream soft catch.
Posted By: Boco

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 02:18 AM

If staked solid-a short chain.Correct sized trap within reason for target animal lots of swivels,no entanglement, and reasonable check time-you will be good.
Posted By: Slipknot

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:18 PM

Good Thread. I have been doing live market a short time. I like every one else can only speak from what I have seen. When I bring a coyote to my buyer we put them in a holding pen for a week if the foot is ok we are good to go. So far I have not had a bad one. I do trap year round and my go to trap is the 2 coil offset 550's I do add a JC Conner shock spring to them. I do think that this set up is to much for live market fox therefore I am trying to decide on a setup for them. I was leaning toward the 450 fox or the 1.5 victor soft catch. Like already mentioned jaw width, swivels ,animal and length of time in the trap all play a role in foot damage. Let me say this I have to come from where I am at to go to where you guys have been in trapping so I am always willing to listen and learn.
Posted By: patrapper1989

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Iíll be the odd man out here, ALL my foot damage has come from offsetsÖK9ís only. Slowly building back to closed jaw traps. No damage with them.


Agree with this 100%. I never saw a benefit of using offset traps. Sure the levers come up slightly higher but all the newer traps have high levers and good lockup. All the damage ive seen is always offset traps and i also am slowly going back to all regular jaw. Just my opinion based off my experiences.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:57 PM

Don't have much issue with foot damage but ive often wondered if it was the sliding back and forth in the jaws that caused most of it, would having a spot in the center of the jaws just the width of the foot offset help? Obviously rounded corners in the transition from the closed to the offset.
Posted By: DWC

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 01:58 PM

Regarding foot or leg damage, i think the damage looks worse because we kill the critter. Its often temporary damage. My reasoning comes from catching a 20 lb dog this year in an offset unmodded #3 bridger dogless. The trap had her a ways above her paw and creased her leg pretty good and she couldnt step on it when i let her out. I kinda figured she had a broken leg the way it looked. Not knowing where she belonged, i put her in my back seat and she rode with while i checked traps. End of the day i found the lady who she belonged to, other side of the section. She ran around fine and you couldnt tell where she had been caught. The lady even scolded her and thanked me for trappin yotes!
Posted By: white marlin

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 02:04 PM

I don't have NEAR the catch numbers that many here have (I'm just a hobby guy); so take this for what you paid for it...

I really like the MB450's for fox in close quarters. used them for about 4-5 years in those areas and loved them. then, started noticing more damage. replaced the springs, and the damage stopped.

there's much more to the equation than my little anecdote implies; but that's my two cents.
Posted By: AuthorTrapper

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 05:18 PM

Too few swivels, long chain, thin jaw face, close jaw rather than offset.
Posted By: backroadsarcher

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 05:20 PM

I have been using #3 Bridges 4 coiled regular jaw. I added outside lamination to the traps. I use these for coyote and don't really see damage to them. But if I catch a incidental fox and they are caught to high then you start running into a little more damage. The #3 is just to big of a trap for fox and is probably on the plus size for coyote in my opinion. But I feel are needed when we get a little snow on top of the trap.
Posted By: Gulo

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/09/22 11:04 PM

I guess I'm in the live-capture camp. For the past ten years-plus, I've been trapping wolves for radiocollar attachment for research purposes. In my opinion, it is very important that the wolves not be compromised (injured) so that, when released, they continue to act like wolves, not like a cripple. I've experimented extensively with various traps and set-ups.

I will pretty much echo Boone's summary, but will add a few points I think are important. 1) rounding the jaw edges, especially the top, is very important in reducing injury, 2) thick laminations greatly reduce injury. 3) trap size (what I call "reach") is vital. That is, the distance from the pan (at firing) to the trap jaws. Too large a trap causes heavy injury when the trap becomes a "leg-hold" trap rather than a "foot-hold" trap. The wolf (or coyote) should be restrained in a foot-hold, and the jaws should be clamped across the foot pads, not the ankle. Too large of a trap often causes great injury and is not generally needed. Additionally, I am a fan of 4) multiple swivels and 5) shock springs; I believe both of these things reduce injury. One additional thing, in my opinion, probably has as much bearing on reducing injury to wolves or coyotes than all of the things mentioned above. That is 6)(which should probably be number 1) The use of drags rather than "hard-wiring", allows the trapped animal to depart the trap site and get to an area of brush or thick trees or heavy grass (some sort of cover). With both wolves and coyotes, I have no doubt that they are less "frantic", and fight the trap much less if they are hidden. In my opinion, this is probably the single greatest "reducer" of trap-induced injury. On multiple occasions, I've watched wolves apparently sleeping in the trap (until I make a noise).

Jack
Posted By: canebrake

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 12:08 AM

I think a wide, smooth jaw face helps tremendously.

I have much more experience with offsets than closed jaws, but I never had much damage with closed jaw #2 modified Bridgers.

I like my inside laminated 650s but they are rough on feet, even coyotes.

As said, proper swiveling is mighty important.

I don't like seeing foot damage.
Posted By: scarfer

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tofan
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.



I see you joined last month and stated you were a new trapper

What experience do you have to.make the above post

These folks have caught thousands of critters

Sometimes its smart to listen
Posted By: canebrake

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 01:23 AM

He said on 12/29 that he was a beginner. He must have learned an awful lot in two weeks! laugh
Posted By: MattDoyle

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 01:42 AM

Iím gonna throw something out that hasnít been mentioned yet. Donít misunderstand me, Iím not discounting any of the other reasons people have mentioned, but one that hasnít been mentioned is weather. All other things being equal, I see more foot damage in the sloppy muddy weather than I do when itís dry. That leads me to believe the foot is sliding more in the trap and causing the damage. If they were on a drag, they probably would have picked a drier place to lay up lol.
Matt
Posted By: MChewk

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 02:11 AM

No one has mentioned a centered chain and swivel attachment yet....maybe it was taken for granted.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 02:16 AM

Anyone el sw been reading through Steel traps most recent thread and seeing what he's doing with long chains ? His thoughts on the subject are very interesting
Posted By: steeltraps

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Anyone el sw been reading through Steel traps most recent thread and seeing what he's doing with long chains ? His thoughts on the subject are very interesting

Wolfdog91 I am experimenting with Long chains and Sterling Nail Swivels. I think the = nail swivel is the best. Drags and 10 ft of chain has showed me the least damage on long check times. But sometimes drags want work. Sometimes I think its just the aniamal in the trap. Some coyotes just fight the trap harder than others
Posted By: Boone Liane

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by MChewk
No one has mentioned a centered chain and swivel attachment yet....maybe it was taken for granted.


I run quite a few side swiveled traps too and as far as them reducing foot damage, I just donít see it.

The foot slides once to the opposite side from the swivel, and stays there.

Now the rare (and I stress RARE) time the animal wraps up the chain around the trap and leg, youíll have some damage. Itís rare, and Iíve had them do this with center swiveled rigs too but the odds are higher with a side hook up. In fact, I just had my first cable anchor ďfailureĒ with a coyote a couple weeks ago. Judging by the twisted balled up end of the cable (1/8Ē even), Iím guessing he wrapped the chain around the trap/leg thus disabling the swivels and continued to spin until he broke the cable. That was a center swiveled rig.

Many many thousands of critters trapped with cable anchors though without a ďfailureĒ. Just goes to show nothing is 100%.


[Linked Image]
Posted By: trappergbus

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 11:00 AM

When we first tested /designed the proto-Alpha #3s a few things became obvious. Wide cast jaws with a flat contact surface made a huge difference, rounding the jaw edges made it even better. Inside and out. Offsets offer a big mechanical advantage but 1/4 is too wide. 3/16th for yotes is perfect. They fight a lighter trap less no matter the chain length, in fact longer (18 inches) they seem to fight less. At this point in time I've trapped over 50 yotes in the Alphas and it seems to be obvious. But some coyotes just don' behave, right? Boone's spot on, " nothing is 100 percent" Dang coyotes anyway LOL. Swivels are VERY important... Sand is worse than mud..
Posted By: Boone Liane

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 01:10 PM

We also have to remember, ďexcessiveĒ foot damage, much like high and low coyote population densities, is subjective.

To an anti trapper, ANY mark, divot or dent on the foot would be considered excessive.

A live market trapper has a set of parameters for allowable foot damage that are likely different from a fur trapper whoís going to kill the animal.

A sheep rancher trying to kill the coyote thatís chewing up his $250 lambs probably has no parameters.
Posted By: 080808

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/10/22 02:39 PM

Boone Liane. Well said especially regarding the lambs.
Posted By: lee steinmeyer

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 12:58 AM

Yep, Boone is spot on. Also glad to see Gary, trappergbus, make the statement about too much gap in an offset. I donít understand trappers that dis offset jaws, but donít believe they understand the dynamics of how a trap works and locks. A correct offset will not cause anymore loss than a standard trap, if either lock up, which is the absolute necessity in trapping. Not gonna say anymore, as everyone has their opinionsÖ.thatís what makes the world go round!
Posted By: Law Dog

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 02:07 AM

Excessive is the key word here excessive and normal are worlds apart that might be whatís confusing people. Itís not Disney VS Friday the 13 LOL
Posted By: trappergbus

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 10:44 AM

The true cause of paw damage is the paw movement. There has to be a balance of power enough to prevent movement and power enough to hold with a wide jaw surface to spread the pressure exerted by the springs. It's not the same with ALL coyotes. Here I have 20-pound YOYs up to 50-pound adults so its tough to find that balance and extended checks make it even more difficult. I had the consent from the local CO to leave an adult male in the trap for 3 days. The hold was just above the pad on the right front paw. That Alpha was 4 coiled with the same helpers as the 550 4 coil stock. Paw never moved, there was some slight swelling but no paw movement. It was funny after the second day the yote saw the truck and just laid there with a bored look.. When I skinned the yote there was no shoulder damage either, the trap had 18 inches of chain and swivels to the anchor point. If the trap your using with offsets is causing damage it's not the offset that is causing the issue. It's either the lack of lock up or the offset is over 3/16th. Offsets of 3/16th with a good lock up with good swivels have saved me a bunch of coyotes, especially toe caught!! Especially in deep snow and mud situations.
Posted By: rpmartin

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 02:03 PM

Absolutely spot on trappergbus with all of the above!
I have found that 3/16 gap on offsets for coyotes is as good as it gets.
I have also learned you can explain this stuff all day long to trappers but only a few of the sharper ones will understand it.
Posted By: Wanna Be

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 06:28 PM

Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.
Posted By: sneaky

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

What length chain? Shock spring? Swivels? What's your setup?
Posted By: rick olson

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/11/22 10:02 PM

I think your sandy soil is more too blame sand is hard on the foot
Posted By: Wanna Be

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by sneaky
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

What length chain? Shock spring? Swivels? What's your setup?

What does it matter? Does offset have to be set up differently than regular jaws?
It was mentioned about people leaving and no new comers posting or even asking questions and I see why, lol.
I didnít state an ďopinionĒ, I stated my EXPERIENCES and I now I see Iíll never be ďone of the sharper onesĒ guess Iím just dull.
I canít explain why I have different results. All traps are stock MB550ís with 12Ē of earth anchor. Anchor is beat into the deck up to the loop. I always anchor off to the side instead of in the bed. Some traps are offset and some regular jaw. Iím sure others experienced the same, but to keep their ďsharpnessĒ, theyíll probably keep their experiences to themselves.
Posted By: Average Joe

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 01:44 AM

GA yotes are likely smaller on average with smaller feet than WI yotes. Possibly WI yotes are more likely to be held tightly with offsets while a GA yote may slip around. Also WI yotes more likely have thicker fur. These things could be a factor.
Way too many variables for a one-size-fits-all solution, as most have pointed out already. But some people just have to be right to feel superior. Donít let it get to you.
Posted By: bearcat2

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 04:12 AM

I'll agree with the width of offset trapperbgus states. I've caught a few coyotes in wolf traps with 1/4" offset, now granted these are big traps and grab a coyote high generally, but they all had foot damage from sliding/rubbing their foot in the jaws. Last year I caught one in a wolf trap that was originally closed jawed and I welded "lugs" on the inside of the jaw to make it offset, just a cats whisker under 3/16" offset is what it came out as. Same size trap, not a drop of foot damage. Frankly I've not seen much foot damage on coyotes from any of my coyote traps, 650s (i've got inside laminated, outside laminated, and cast jaw, all offset) 3Ns, 3 B&L dbl, and a few miscellanous 3 coilsprings, all offset and four coiled, but none over 3/16" offset.
Posted By: rpmartin

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.


Either the your not 3/16 or your not four coiled. Powering up will help hold the paw tight so there is no movement. Those two things along what has already been stated will solve your problems.
Posted By: rpmartin

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Originally Posted by sneaky
[quote=Wanna Be]Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

What does it matter? Does offset have to be set up differently than regular jaws?
It was mentioned about people leaving and no new comers posting or even asking questions and I see why, lol.
I didnít state an ďopinionĒ, I stated my EXPERIENCES and I now I see Iíll never be ďone of the sharper onesĒ guess Iím just dull.
I canít explain why I have different results. All traps are stock MB550ís with 12Ē of earth anchor. Anchor is beat into the deck up to the loop. I always anchor off to the side instead of in the bed. Some traps are offset and some regular jaw. Iím sure others experienced the same, but to keep their ďsharpnessĒ, theyíll probably keep their experiences to themselves.


I figured there would be a few butts that got hurt over that comment. Some people have enough common sense to fix a problem. Looks like you got it figured out with closed jaws. Now you and a few other people know how to fix your offset problems also if you ever wish to try them again. Good luck

Also sand dosen't matter, if the foot can't move in the trap the sand is a non issue.
Posted By: Seldom

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 12:32 PM

This has been an interesting thread to say the least. I use traps where there is NEVER a question of the coyoteís foot slipping because nothing moves once theyíre in a Jake! NOTHING! Did I mention I have a bunch of Jakes for sale? LOL
Posted By: steeltraps

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

Wanna Be. I would not beat myself up to badly about this ^^^^ it happens. IF you catch enough coyotes you will have damage sooner or latter no matter what you do. Prime example = bout 4 years ago caught a coyote in a = New 4 coiled MB 550 os. 24 hr check Not in grass No swivel damage. The coyote was caught high up the paw as you could catch 1 in a MB 550 Quess what ? He left me a paw and 6 inch of twisted tendion. Hate when this happens - But my point ?? IF YOU catch enough coyotes damage will happen!! Try your best to see that it doesnt. Then go on with life. IF I have 5 % foot damage. That a low number right? 5% of 541 coyotes is 25 plus coyotes? 25 coyotes sounds bad doesnít it? Only to antiís and liberals
Posted By: MattDoyle

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 03:25 PM

This has been a great read, but it has left me with some questions. I trap because I enjoy it. I only intentionally target coyotes, (aside from clearing out coons and opossums) but my fox population is exploding and my coyote population seems to be on the decline. I do not attempt to catch fox. I like fox. They donít hurt anything, and I try to release them as unharmed as possible. I am primarily running 550ís 2 coiled, solely for the reason that I catch so many fox, not bc Iím short on other options. They do a decent job of not causing excessive foot damage. The few instances Iíve had with more foot damage than I like, have been during instances where it was excessively muddy. This goes along with what many have stated about paw slip casing damage. Now for the questionsÖ If a 3/16Ē offset is ideal for minimizing the damage to the foot of a coyote, what does that make the ideal offset for a fox? If Iím understanding what has been said correctly, should I 4 coil these traps in an attempt to reduce the foot damage on fox? Should I also reduce that 3/16Ē offset in an attempt to minimize paw slip? Letís be honest here, while I donít want to see damage on fox OR coyotes, Iím not releasing the coyotes, so if decreasing that 3/16Ē offset benefits the fox and only marginally increases the foot damage on coyotes, I can live with that.

Matt
Posted By: Tofan

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by scarfer

I see you joined last month and stated you were a new trapper

What experience do you have to.make the above post

These folks have caught thousands of critters

Sometimes its smart to listen


Sometimes you don't have to be an expert in trapping or any other sport to understand mechanical or technical design, which applies in this case. Am I an expert hunter? Nope, but I can design and build machine guns, suppressors and other various things that are used during hunting. I mean since you asked nicely, I am an expert in the radio frequency realm, I have designed, tested antennas and radomes that go on our country's finest equipment that fly high in the sky. I have my FFL07, a stack of AK parts, stoner63 parts, and a mix of a lot of other things in that area that deal with technical and mechanical design. Finally and probably the most important quality of my experience is my ability to read which I know may be foreign to you and the other fella, not only this forum, but all of the patent designs, BMP reports, state reports, books, research papers, laws, and other written material, all which indicate what I stated above is/was the design intent of offset jaws. What the end result may be can differ, since that is the difference between theory and practicality.

For the person who asked about paws slipping around, if you use the appropriate sized trap, both sides of the paw will be enclosed in the offset. Again I am simply talking about the stated design purpose of the offset, not what people experience when using them. So if we were using an offset built for raccoon, the entire length of it would be maybe half an inch wider than his paws so that it would limit his ability to "slide it".
Posted By: rpmartin

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by MattDoyle
This has been a great read, but it has left me with some questions. I trap because I enjoy it. I only intentionally target coyotes, (aside from clearing out coons and opossums) but my fox population is exploding and my coyote population seems to be on the decline. I do not attempt to catch fox. I like fox. They donít hurt anything, and I try to release them as unharmed as possible. I am primarily running 550ís 2 coiled, solely for the reason that I catch so many fox, not bc Iím short on other options. They do a decent job of not causing excessive foot damage. The few instances Iíve had with more foot damage than I like, have been during instances where it was excessively muddy. This goes along with what many have stated about paw slip casing damage. Now for the questionsÖ If a 3/16Ē offset is ideal for minimizing the damage to the foot of a coyote, what does that make the ideal offset for a fox? If Iím understanding what has been said correctly, should I 4 coil these traps in an attempt to reduce the foot damage on fox? Should I also reduce that 3/16Ē offset in an attempt to minimize paw slip? Letís be honest here, while I donít want to see damage on fox OR coyotes, Iím not releasing the coyotes, so if decreasing that 3/16Ē offset benefits the fox and only marginally increases the foot damage on coyotes, I can live with that.

Matt


Very good question with no ideal answer. First of all thank you for trying to minimize damage. No way we can to 0% damage period. But as trappers we automatically take on the responsibility to at least try to get the percentage to as close to zero as possible. With todays technology some work and a little thought it's really not that hard. Trust me, if I can do it then anybody can do it. Don't listen to anyone that says it dosen't matter. That is exactly what the antis love to hear because it looks and sounds really bad.

With that said imho I would take another 1/32 or maybe 1/16 off and try that. You will have to test it out to see what works best. I would also raise my pan tension to around 5 or 6 pounds. You will have to test this too. Good luck
Posted By: ~ADC~

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tofan
Originally Posted by scarfer

I see you joined last month and stated you were a new trapper

What experience do you have to.make the above post

These folks have caught thousands of critters

Sometimes its smart to listen


Sometimes you don't have to be an expert in trapping or any other sport to understand mechanical or technical design, which applies in this case. Am I an expert hunter? Nope, but I can design and build machine guns, suppressors and other various things that are used during hunting. I mean since you asked nicely, I am an expert in the radio frequency realm, I have designed, tested antennas and radomes that go on our country's finest equipment that fly high in the sky. I have my FFL07, a stack of AK parts, stoner63 parts, and a mix of a lot of other things in that area that deal with technical and mechanical design. Finally and probably the most important quality of my experience is my ability to read which I know may be foreign to you and the other fella, not only this forum, but all of the patent designs, BMP reports, state reports, books, research papers, laws, and other written material, all which indicate what I stated above is/was the design intent of offset jaws. What the end result may be can differ, since that is the difference between theory and practicality.

For the person who asked about paws slipping around, if you use the appropriate sized trap, both sides of the paw will be enclosed in the offset. Again I am simply talking about the stated design purpose of the offset, not what people experience when using them. So if we were using an offset built for raccoon, the entire length of it would be maybe half an inch wider than his paws so that it would limit his ability to "slide it".


There is no substitute for experience. Research will turn up a crap-load of misinformation. There's quite a bit right here on this thread as some of experienced coyote trappers have pointed out.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 05:33 PM

Tofan
You may have knowledge and experience in some areas but I've seen you post 3 comments now that makes it obvious you have no experience about what you posted about because your completely wrong.

Pretty easy to spot someone with real experience and someone that got their ideas on the couch.

I'd like you to find me a offset coyote trap where the offset is only as wide as the paw. I suggested it might be an ides in a post but right now that isn't how the offset is designed. The offset came about from my understanding to give a better lockup before better and stronger coyote traps were available. The offset gives the illusion it doesn't pinch the foot as tight and that is were your lack of experience is taking you down the wrong path again.
Posted By: steeltraps

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 06:02 PM

What causes excess foot damage on K9s ? The K9s. Thats the real truth. Some coyotes lay their like its there last day on earth. Some fight the trap like they can free themselves. Aniamls are individualís. Their for you will never get NO damage what so ever IF you trap lots of them. I have tried LOTS of new things. Longer chains on my MJ 600 Sterlings AND mid length swivels. Still getting some foot damage. Lets be homest here. 36 to 72 hr check on staked down aniamal WILL have some foot damage no matter what offset chain length or amount of swivels and shock absorbers you put into it. Try to do you best to reduce foot damage if you can. But sometimes it doesnít matter if what you do. It will happen
Posted By: red mt

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 06:23 PM

I agree with steel traps, I've seen coyotes on 24 hrs in muddy conditions look pretty bad I ve seen coyotes on 72hrs in dry conditions look like they were just caught which they could have been but not all of that check day could of all them just been caught.
Imo all can do is try to make your set up be as friendly as possible and go with that. On a extended check it's pretty important. Imo I have real good results using longer chains as they seem to relax better once out of that mud hole at the stake let them move when they want to .
Posted By: steeltraps

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 06:45 PM

Red Mt. Is it worth buying Sterling Swivels and adding an extra one at the mid chain length??? On 36 inch and 2 Sterling Swivels and kinkless chain. I thought about adding 1 more Sterling Nail Swivel. Would it help? I would it be worht the time and money??
Posted By: red mt

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 09:51 PM

Mr. Steel traps, you can make those sterling swivels easy please so I got 3 on a trap and 36 inches of chain. And run victor montys and going use the Harris trap a bit more. I am in process of putting every trap I own on a drag and long chain 15 ft. Using a good hook.
I have been experimenting this year on how far a coyote could drag them in the open pasture with little to no brush in that field I was pleasantly surprised with results . This spring when I start spring calving trapping for a few ranchers around home here will be the next test. But check time's will be different .I generally run a 3 day check.
Hope that answer's the question or at least give's you some food for thought.
Red
Posted By: Tofan

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/12/22 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Yes sir
Tofan
You may have knowledge and experience in some areas but I've seen you post 3 comments now that makes it obvious you have no experience about what you posted about because your completely wrong.

Pretty easy to spot someone with real experience and someone that got their ideas on the couch.

I'd like you to find me a offset coyote trap where the offset is only as wide as the paw. I suggested it might be an ides in a post but right now that isn't how the offset is designed. The offset came about from my understanding to give a better lockup before better and stronger coyote traps were available. The offset gives the illusion it doesn't pinch the foot as tight and that is were your lack of experience is taking you down the wrong path again.



They don't exist, I wont find them, nor will anybody else. Just like there are no offsets designed specifically for animals, but the entire point of the post was to talk about original design intent. I am going to repeat that I am not arguing what happens in the field, only what the original design intent was. The earlier gentlemen who quoted my OG post, asked about sliding in the trap, which I said would be alleviated by an offset cut specific to the animal, not that they existed in the current market.

My only point was to talk about the design, not what happens in the field. I apologize if this got mixed up in the post.
Posted By: Drifter

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/13/22 09:38 PM

I got started on live market around 6 years ago. Before that I was fur trapping but noted the foot damage on mainly coyote. I tried closed jaws as well as offsets and still was more damage then I wanted. I first tried to modify # 2 Victor double longs with inside as well as outside laminations. That was a dismal failure to say the least. They still cut feet badly.

I tried Montgomery dogless #3 as many were singing the praises of them. I found I liked the dogless design but without laminations the feet weren't what I found acceptable. I moved on to #2 Bridgers offsets and laminated them inside and out. It improved but like many others found still not what I wanted for feet. Tried the MB 550 offsets next even polished the jaws like a mirror with a hand held band sander. That did improve them some. Tried Montana specials as well as Jake traps. IMO I would prefer them to be a # 2 size for what I am wanting. I went back to my #2 Bridgers with laminations which I am now thinking will try them 4 coiled and see if can figure out a way to add a coating to help hold as well as cushion the feet. I change out the springs for # 2 music wire before ever setting them as I have found some I thought were too light fresh out of the box.

Most of my catches are in the wide open which may have them fighting the trap harder. The nail swivels J C Connor makes are my swivel of choice as even the possum doesn't usually clog them like the regular ones. I also run hos shock springs at the anchor end on all my predator traps.
Posted By: trappergbus

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/15/22 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by steeltraps
What causes excess foot damage on K9s ? The K9s. Thats the real truth. Some coyotes lay their like its there last day on earth. Some fight the trap like they can free themselves. Aniamls are individualís. Their for you will never get NO damage what so ever IF you trap lots of them. I have tried LOTS of new things. Longer chains on my MJ 600 Sterlings AND mid length swivels. Still getting some foot damage. Lets be homest here. 36 to 72 hr check on staked down aniamal WILL have some foot damage no matter what offset chain length or amount of swivels and shock absorbers you put into it. Try to do you best to reduce foot damage if you can. But sometimes it doesnít matter if what you do. It will happen

Yep, totally agree with that statement. What works for the most will never work for all! All we can do is use the best designed gear we have available, and the rest is up to the coyote hims/herself. Dang coyotes anyway. Some just don't behave! It's the mass total that counts!

Back before coyotes showed up here I trapped fox coon mixed lines. Used Monty 1.5 rjs and 2s. Some had 3/16th offsets, some were closed jaws. I was trying to figure out how to hold more dry coon. Held more in the offsets but new I could improve. Noticed how many more I lost in the closed jaws. The jaw surface was rounded Stock. So I ground them to a flat surface, the offset gap ended up 1/8th. The coon losses dropped big time and the paw damage with reds and greys practically disappeared. After the grinding I added swivels and chain. 16 inches to the anchor point. My coon losses went from 50 percent to 10 percent with those 2 modifications. They were all center swiveled with chain wrapped around the frame and 4 coiled and lamed. When coyotes appeared those same 1.5 monties became coyote traps. Zero losses with the 1.5s , the 2s were a big problem tho. Even 4 coiled. with the 1.5s the misses were off the charts tho.
Posted By: 52Carl

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s - 01/16/22 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by MattDoyle
Iím gonna throw something out that hasnít been mentioned yet. Donít misunderstand me, Iím not discounting any of the other reasons people have mentioned, but one that hasnít been mentioned is weather. All other things being equal, I see more foot damage in the sloppy muddy weather than I do when itís dry. That leads me to believe the foot is sliding more in the trap and causing the damage. If they were on a drag, they probably would have picked a drier place to lay up lol.
Matt

Makes perfect sense. Put yourself in a coyotes shoes. Its cold. You are wet and muddy. And you are completely exposed. I doubt you would spend much time taking a nap.
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