More Regulation?

http://arkansasmatters.com/fulltext?nxd_id=572742
I see new bees on the news all the time who get a camera in there face and think they can OWN the region with a 45 second clip. Basically they are the cut throat S.O.B.s that pretend they want more regulation to PROTECT THE CUSTOMER.
If they gave a crap about the customer at all, or the industry as a whole, they would be more active in the training of all WCOs at no cost at all. They would organize a local wco org. and help it along. How many of you guys feel what I'm talking about?

Sorry,,,,I am republican/survivalist and do not want the government to do "what I can do better'

PS Buy Platinum..................

Personally I believe the guys see that there are others trying to get into the industry, and instead of nurturing the industry, they want to close the doors on the new guy, and make it hard for them to get in. Fees of 500 bucks to learn from someone who never climbed a ladder and compiled some info they read on line about bat removal is ridiculous!

Kind of curious what Critter Control's response will be since their name was used to help promote another company.

As for the industry not being regulated, everyone forgets how much regulation already exists and to request it as an excuse to stop the "fly by night" companies is ridiculous. That type of thinking is right along the lines of passing more gun control laws for those of use that already follow them to stop the criminals.

Most states require anyone charging a fee for products or services to register with the state at a minimum and follow fair business guidelines. Some states have additional criteria such as hunting and trapping licenses, sales vendor license, insurance qualifications, contractor qualifications, and/or have an actual nuisance wildlife program. If a certain company isn't already following these laws and regulations why are they going to start when more laws and regulations are added?

I really hope that some day soon the light bulbs will go off and people will understand that if individuals can't follow the current laws and regulations, then making additional laws and regulations will not magically make them law abiding qualified companies or individuals.

The only ones affected with more laws and regulations are the individuals and companies currently following them and that generally means higher prices for consumers so we can cover our costs to remain compliant.

I agree with you Mike.



Mike, pretty much everyone here knows my feelings about regulations and the people who push for them. I wont get into it now. (edit: but I sure am glad that Eric did)



Ever hear the old expression, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."? Fortunately, there seems to be a good supply of doers who also teach in this business. There's really very little need for compilers.

I'd really like to see a series of short books written about wco work and building repairs. You know, like the old Charlie Dobbins or Russ Carman trapping books. Eighty to a hundred pages for ten to twelve dollars, covering one aspect of the business. Several authors, offering books on the same topic, would provide good, solid information from several points of view.

They would be far more useful than the one size fits all textbook types.

^^^^^ I really like this guy...

sgs,

This is something I'm working on compiled from articles published in WCT Magazine. There is almost 20 years of information there and I thought it would be great to organize it into small books by species and/or topic. I'm hoping to have something put together and out there by next years FTA and NTA conventions.

Encourage people send in articles and or photographs for consideration to print in the magazine or books. Because of all the different authors WCT Magazine has with its articles is why I wanted to make these compilations. That way it isn't one person saying this is how you do it for all the different situations that can be encountered in or out of a service area.

Kind of the way I remember FFG Magazine eh BBM?

I think that Josh blew it when he got such an oportunity to put his best foot forward and talk about what is good about his company he spent most of his time running down others. I see that happening on here sometimes too.
I agree with most that we already have enough regulation. If you don't do quality work you eventuallywon't get any and there are fraudlaws and civil remedies already. If you do what you say and say what you do and people agree then there isn't aproblem. If you say your going to do an exclusion and you screw metal over a hole for an agreed upon price is one thing. If you say you are going to do a repair and you screw a piece of metal over a hole for a big price people andthe current laws will regulate you. We don't need more.
I don't think Critter Control can do anything about someone using the words critter control when speaking of controling wildlife. You can't call your company critter control but it chaps me that some of them think you are not allowed to say critter control in a sentence. It is a good name for this kind of business but to say you can't use the words critter or critter control in a sentence is to much regulation.
Back on topic we don't need more regulations the people will regulate the industry. Most of the time govt. cant solve the problem because it is the problem.

I may have said this a hundred times before but I believe it bears repeating; Mr.Flick, and I and others live in a state that has probably the least regulation of any. And I think our state is a fine example of what sqs and Eric and others are talking about. Just because we have fairly intelligent rules governing our businesses ( including pest, wildlife, and bat control ) doesn't mean that we have a lot of complaints because of unscrupulous companies. As a matter of fact, I think it's just the opposite!

Mud slinging has been proven to work in political advertising.

CC will try to protect that name, usually by sending a threatening cease and desist letter as a first step.

Not all teachers can't some can teach and do . Example I went to building trades school for two year my teacher was there because his son and this freinds got drunk and hit a oak tree doing 70 miles hour . The fact he could do was he built 3 speck homes every summer and sold them making much more as a summer time builder than a teacher .he also hired us on and found us all high paying part time jobs when in school . People like this are a true asset to this county . giving back ,helping build young men even if we didn't understand him at the time . Falling us was not a option . If we falled he falled .
He also learned us book learning show us the book and then just basically throwing of to the side . Ok boys grab the tools I'm going to show the real world of home building . Chainsaw first step we need to cut down the trees before we dig the hole . The guy took us from a lot with standing trees to selling the finished home in a down market . How's that we built so the home could be heat and cooled for 500 ayear . What ever did happen to that anyway energy saving homes from the ground Up. A home that's a home inside of a home . Using solar heat . barrels of gel in the floors that hold heat from the sun . Window blinds on timers . This teacher is the exception I know that . Should have a hall of fame for these type teachers . Sure he broke some of the rules but rules don't always work because the people making these rules up don't understand that sometimes yes water does run up hill .

Homes are built by different stages of trades man and each stage must work together and allowing each stage to work . Example a heat guy and the Plummer will fight for space in the walls of a home to run there stuff well the designer of the home knows nothing about these trades his job is structsure . The Plummer is a really good at moving water and waist around the house but knows nothing about structsure so he will cut and place his pipes where need be leaving these rodent and bat highways . How are the bats getting from point A to point B well there you go . Not saying its the Plummer falt this is just a example and hardly ever something the Plummer did . Thats the framer and roofer working together mostly .

The framer has the hardest job and needs the most forsight to bring this altogether , he needs to first build this in his head foreseeing all the needs for all the other trades . How does he learn this because he has to go back and repair his framming after the other trades cut and bucher his work without cutting and destoring the other trades work . This could leave gaps for rodent highways .

Building materials are always changing some for the better some to save money . Some will be recalled and some do truly reinvent the wheel . The ones that are recalled might be except because they where installed voiding the warranty or people might not know there's a recall . These materials most likely are not holding up to weather and the animals just love this stuff . Fix a hole and they just swing there tail and there's a new one . Example enter lap siding face nailed is void of warranty . If blnd nail the home gets new siding for free .

Different builders . With the exception of these nation wide builders all homes are built different in different areas of the country . Sure local builder build different but all use the same trades man . They also spy on each other to see what's selling or working . Nation wide builder could spend a million dollars solving a warranty problem that costed them 10 mil the year before trying to fix . And come up with this weird way of solving the problem but causing a hidden gate way for bats and rodents . This gateway could even close behind them when they enter the home . Why would a nation wide want all there homes built the same coast to coast . For 1 they can send the same inspectors to sights all around the country . Same goes for there superintendents . Example puilty homes spent millions solving why the floor squeak . Final solution no more glue just wood to wood screwed 4" on center . Why would I even bring this point up . Because your working along on houses that are all basically built the same . Then you pull up on a house that looks the same from the road but behind the sidding or brick , roofing ect its a compleatly different built home with compleatly different weak spots .

. Roofing how many different types are there anyway . Same goes for the ridge vent it's all different . Seen this stuff the other day made me go and what where they thinking . Why are there gaps under the overhangs that laying on the roof . So the roofer can slide there singles under and not cut them in needed flashing .

Flashing or card flashing needs backing behind it . The framer installs this backing of wood but in tight small spots there no need forit because the flashing will just float right over it . This makes a flap door entery point that acts like a open close door for the little animals yes there's could be a rub mark here but if the flashing matches the color of the rub it's missed . Raccoon or squirrel could use this as a edge to get there teeth in and start a hole .

I guess I could go on and on because I have been there over and over year after year framming in homes . Just because the animals are getting in it doesn't mean the house was built wrong . Homes are built to keep weather out , heat in , there built to look good and the ones with these gaint roofs are built that way so they look bigger and the bigger the roof system the more problems with up keep and animal problems . Making a book that covers all this kinda stuff would be some feet . Home repairs and animal damage repairs are compleatly different

What is this guys problem I'm just geussing and most likely not true but could be the real problem . He is trying to expand to fast and needs to take a step back . He could have put three trucks on the road and was doing better with just his one truck . people do the math in there heads thinking wow Im doing good if I had more trucks I could really do good . Sorry it just does not work that way . Paying people to work for you is a hole different monster . It could be he had a worker quit and take his customers with him . Been there and that's a very hard thing to let go of . Sorry if people don't see this the way I do . This is just how I see things and I'm surly not saying I'm right about it

Thinking back....I have alot of teachers to thank.

x2
Rickey

Personally, I think that there are already an abundance of barriers to entry. Plenty of people give it a whirl for a year, and then close up. It takes quite amount of ambition, organization, skills ( trapping, business, computer, marketing, legal) to be sucessful. Pesky may have a point about the struggles of having employees, but I do not know how the single person operations make it. I can not imagine working in the field for 12 plus hours, then doing the accounting, taxes, purchasing, etc. Fears of locking people out are unfounded...they already are. Otherwise the ADC industry would look like the landscape industry.

Ain't that the truth. You're woefully out of touch with the industry.

yeah right... PAY TO PLAY.... dont want to PAY... take a hike.

It seems to me that there will always be Greedy individuals that don't want anyone helped along. They prefer a roadblock for newbies most would like to see the old man down the street locked up for catching his neighbors possum that got in the cat food. There are plenty of free ways to learn now this forum as well as others have been around for yrs along with Robbs podcast. Most of these guys giving info out for Free are doing it for the better of the industry they are not profiting at all. If your advertising program is worth a hoot and you have been around long at all, your going to be too busy to take on all the calls your getting in the first place. Its nice to be able to say call this guy if your booked up, the caller will appreciate it. Not everything in life life should be about the all mighty $$. Most of these guys giving out info have been around for yrs and could spank us hard if they were in our area, they got their head on straight though putting the INDUSTRY above their bank account. Talking with several on all most daily basis you will find they are a happy and cheerful bunch of guys that don't have their undies in a knot like the guys that want to regulate the industry away from anyone but themselves.

Well put Adam!

Are franchise employees even allowed on here by the owners anymore? Since Dwyer left CC, I haven't heard a peep from anyone involved with franchises.

Probobly not, its nice to have a say so as to who you can talk to and what color your truck is. Must be like being maried! LOL!

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/04/27/news/local_news/doc4f99dda6f2161410042645.txt. This was in are paper it also rubbed me the wrong way

Thats enteresting Pesky probably deserves a thread of its own. That spray may need to beregulated whether it works or not.

Well he seems to be able to prove that trapping only works 1 out 10 times . Cant see anything that proves his family secrit spray works .. I can see its it's made the front page of the news paper. Notice how he doesn't spray the nut trees so the animals don't starve to death . Looks like this special oil spray only works on nesting animals . Not sure what that means . Possum nest or a coon nest I guess I've missed that one . I see rodents building nest and birds . Not sure if its legal to spray birds with oil . If I had it I would just stay home and make spray and make millions . Not sure how he cracked the problem of animals being able to handle much more Oder than we can . One thing forsure trapping out the damage causing animals and then repairing the holes they have made works and surly doesn't need redone after each rain . If there's bad Oder left behind they can have that killed up and I haven't seen a spray that does that better than removing the problem causing the Oder .

secret not secrit
odor not Oder
surely not surly

All this guy has is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less. There are several companies out there that use this "sales tactic" and there always will be.

If there ever was a permanent repellant that worked with a single application and there was a formula that worked on every mammal in the world that individual would become a billionaire overnight. Companies would be fighting each other trying to buy the formulas to prevent the products from reaching the market and putting them out of business in a heart beat. And if that didn't work, those same companies would come together and file legal claims against the individual keeping everything tied up in court for years.

The better question to ask is, is this legal? Does the state of Michigan (or whatever state the next guy/company shows up in) allow unregistered products to be offered and/or applied in this manner? Is a commercial applicator license or pest control business license required as well? A simple call to the regulatory authority is all that is needed to find out and possibly start an investigation.

Unfortunately there will always be a market for this type of service no matter how much you try to educate the public. At times like this I always like to remember the words of Ron White when I get frustrated with consumers, "You can't fix stupid!"

Another waste of energy thread. This is has been hashed out so many times that I think I can rattle off names and positions in my sleep.

So let me state my position.

I'm all for regulation if it is reasonable, and that is the quandry.

* As a far right conservative I want to be completely invisible to my government, it's none of their [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] business who I am and what I do and they are not entitled to any part of it, I built it without their help all on my own.

* As a far right conservative I firmly belive in caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. I do my own homework and research when I buy a product or service if the next fellow is to dumb to do the same then he deserves what he gets.

* As a far right conservative I believe humanity is created in the image of God, animals are not. Human life is sacred and to be preserved at all costs, animals are mindless and souless beings and as such deserve no special protections.

* As a far right conservative I am free to the unlimited exercise all the rights and liberties of a freeborn child of God up and until that exercise infringes in even the least way upon the rights and liberties of my fellow child of God.

Okay, I've made four points stating my own personal philosophies and I would like to think the philosphies of our founders that seems to have been lost over the last 236 years. So just how does this jive with my support of regulation upon our industry that we are willing to fight each other over.

Okay, point one.

Even if we could put the cork back in the bottle and eliminate taxes, licenses and permits we would still have the long held practice of all wildlife being held in common. If that is still so then unregulated take of wildlife for any reason would be a broad and egregious violation of point number four.
So, we have to have regulation. As a matter of fact we will always have regulation in this area. I guess we will also always need to have this conversation in this area.

Point two.

Now this one really muddies up the relationship of point number four. I have the right to contract my labor to another, plain and simple right. Well how about I lie or misrepresent in order to gain more from my labor. I have that right, don't I? What about the contractee? Does he have the right to not be lied to? I say nope, caveat emptor, yet we also have long held examples on the books of regulation against fraud and theft. Either we go completely hands off or find a middle ground. You tell me.

Point three.

Since I made a case in response to point one that regulation of animals in de facto at this point we know need to hash out the why and wherefores. Yep, more regulation.

And on the point four.

All the above replies make my case for regulation because without them my four points of freedom only work in isolation. As long as children of God iteract upon this imperfect sphere there will unfortunately be a need for regulation.

There my case is made.

Thanks papa Paul

The DNR has sent E-Mails out to bat removal professionals in Wisconsin asking for input on how the industry should be regulated. My opinion is that we should be fighting to keep as many tools in our box as possible. ( Kinda like ya dont need it until the day after you throw it away) Bat trapping is not something I have ever felt the need to do, but it should be an option here, especially if the white nose syndrome is a consern. As with CWD here, If we observe a colony with wns, I think we should destroy the entire colony to help keep it from spreading. What do you fellas think?

Sounds like common sense to me . If you know your spreading it there's no way you should . Not sure if it would do any good because they don't always hang or gather in the same place ever day or night because there food sorce is not always in the same place depending on wind direction or moisture ect .Problem could be pestcontrol company's could add that to there list . They could use them bat boards placed under the gable vents .

You realy hate them pest control guys dont ya Pesky? LOL

Mike, am I reading the bat regulations wrong or isn't it still up to the homeowner when bats are removed? What I'm saying is, if you have a bat flying around your house and I discover that you have a colony in your attic, you can have me remove them any time you want.

Thats how all but Rory at Madison DNR bat people concured with when I asked them. She seems to read it differantly, but she is a little fish anyway so, yea a home owner can pull the trigger when ever they want.

As far a wns...you will not likely keep it from spreading within your area. The idea is to keep it from spreading regions rapidly.

The idea of killing colonies that you find with wns is a bad idea because you may kill certain individuals with the capacity to survive and pass the genes along. Some individuals are making it...

Research is finding the same thing in honeybees. RNA viruses appear to be implicated in colony collapse disorder with varroa destructor mites being the vector species. While genetic resistance to RNA viruses has not and probably will never be found genetic resistance to varroa does exist and is being found in feral stock.

I'm sure you are already aware that geomyces destructing, the fungal causative agent of WNS, is present in all of Europe and european bats test positive for exposure yet are unaffected by the fungus. Proof positive of resistance, probably genetic, and if possible on one side of the Atlantic its possible here.
I just pray that there is enough time for it to happen. Other american victims of translocated pathogens like the American Chestnut haven't been so fortunate.

Our bat exclusion regs were well written, keeping home owners in mind. I would like to keep it that way. I tell all my customers that I protect my own species first. Im not a bat hater, or a bat lover. I just dont put the welfare of an animal above that of a human.

Definitely agree with Dave and David M. on this issue. All the research that has gone on thus far is focused on the goal of finding a solution but in reality timeline wise for many species this is likely to be a case of selective immunity and a major struggle to slowly rebuild the populations from there.

I was in WI more than a decade back now assisting as a govt. guy with CWD head processing. At the time I didn't think much of it and obviously it has been wholeheartedly embraced since then.

Culling or killing depending on which country your from reading this often just results in lots of dead animals with no actual reduction in disease. There are exceptions, but if you look at many of them closely you can find holes in the logic. Even with CWD the studies showed many of the target age/sex of deer were leaving the eradication zone yet most folks glossed over this.

In Europe they've tried to cull badger setts to reduce bovine tb, mostly animal welfare controversy and no reduction has come of this.

Geomyces destructans is a complex issue that is further complicated by the utter lack of basic knowledge of bat populations we have for nearly all other wildlife in our country. The inability to radio track throughout their life history, to find all relevant populations in the hills, forests and caves and the lack of funding in most cases.

I have worked on projects that were several million dollars and know what they can produce. However anything less is just ridiculous and the feds have thus far put forward only $1 million roughly to research and study through congress.

While we have tons of issues in our country that need attention, if we are strictly talking about the limiting factor in this issue, it is boots on the ground and the funding it takes to keep creating ideas and hopeful solutions.

The best thing NWCO's can do in my humble opinion is continue to help the public learn about the benefit of bats, solve bat problems in a healthy balanced way that protects the people and the bats and promote conservation.

In that way we all play a positive role every day we are in the field!

Justin

How can they if, as it is in Georgia, any jack leg with thirty dollars and the limited ability to pass a limited questionnaire qualifies one as a wildlife professional?

BTW

Justin, I wholeheartedly agree. We are the boots on the ground and the frontline for our DNRs. There are many of us that love what we do and have taken the time to educate ourselves that we really do not need regulated since we do our dead level best to do it right anyway. But if "protecting the public" isn't reason enough what about things like this as at least a need for better training and that isn't going to happen for many unless made to do so.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but personally, I find it very encouraging that of the few people I really trust with the state of our particular occupation, is that one lives in Georgia and the other in New Mexico. ( Come on now, when was the last time you heard "coast to coast" without having either New York or California mentioned? )

We all started somewhere, no need for any name calling. So.... you trying to close the door on new competition?

Mike, absolutely not. Just ask around, I've freely given of my time to help the new guy.

Without standards we are just some sort of handyman or jackleg depending on skill set. With standards we are an industry of professionals.

It gives you something for people to measure you against. If you are doing realy pretty work then only the RICH ones will be able to affoard you.

Mike, on a similar thread there is the common complaint of the unlicensed PCO doing wildlife. If the truth be told in most areas the PCO on paper is more qualified to do this work than us.

The PCO has to meet requirements of testing, licensing, company registration, supervision, record keeping, liability coverage and continuing education.

We have, in this state, no requirements other then a small fee and the most basic of testing one a one time basis with only an annual report required as record keeping.

If it ever came to push to shove, as it has in CA and FL, the PCO could take away everything we have. Yes, we could fight and maybe win or as has happened get some of it back but it would never be us in charge ever again.

While I personally hate and despise regulation I am a realist. Without at least some modicum of the appearance of regulation we have no leg to stand on if challenged. What I am arguing for should be the very thing I should be against since the costs to me to meet new regs could very well put me and others over the edge in this economy but I am looking at this in the long term. I don't want to be part of the generation that loses the opportunity for the next new guy because I wasn't willing to help guide this industry into the modern era.

Let's face it things are going to change, they always do. We need to guide those changes or step aside.

I've given alot of thought to what I would like to see in my state and the best I can come up with would be a model based on our current structural pest control board except completely under the auspices of the DNR and not the Dept of Ag. It would be fairly simple and straight forward. A board of stakeholders would be created with biologists and conservation officers from the DNR, representatives of the industry and consumer affairs and yes a rep from the Dept of Ag (if we get similar representation on the Structural Pest Board). This new wildlife control board would then oversee wildlife control operations in this state and most importantly protect us from attacks by outside interests. The board could then create as needed standards. Most importantly it gives us equal standing.

That has got to be the best argument for the topic I have ever read. I hope this is a local effort and you have some good local guys at the wheel like yourself Warrior!

The problem is, regulations breed regulations.

Once you push for regulations that *you* thinks have merit, you open the door for them all.

It's true that we are already regulated. But once you say OK, I might as well get *my* regulations in there too, you have a free for all. Just look at the various state and federal regulations on firearms.

Is this really where you want your business to go?

I gotta agree with you also sgs. I guess what it comes down to is this, Why do you really want the rules added to the books? Is it because the presant rules allow someone else to under bid with a method you dont use? Or does the competition make a mess out of alot of jobs, and people associate that with you. I really dont see an issue with either of these in my own area, and its more regulated than lots of folks in the biz around here even think about. Many of us have been dealing with fur trapping regulations since we were children. To ask for more here would be taboo.
As for running the competition out of town like the PC guys? Believe me, it aint happening. They want to set a few cage traps, yada yada yada, let em. When the customer wants real animal work done, they know who to call. Most PC guys have a 20 foot ladder if that, and hate using it.

hey!!! I resemble that remark.... i hate ladders too!!!

Thank you, Mike, for the kind words. At this point it's just me and a few others that seem to agree with me but beyond that it's all conjecture.

SGS, no I absololutely do not want my business to go down that road and truthfully it scares the living [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] out of me. I know all to well the dangerous road of unintended consequences and were it not for my own personal experience I would be loath to even mention it and continue hoping to remain under the radar. My experience with the turtle trapping regulations process has shown me plain and simple we can not continue on as we are unless mass suicide is your kind of thing.

Let me give you a run down of what happened and just why turtle trapping in the state of Georgia is dead and gone.

I and others first learned of the intent of the DNR to change the regulations only after the deed had been done if not in fact but de facto by the legislature. Historically the trapping of turles in Georgia was completely unregulated with unlimited take and restrictions just on a handful of species judged to be in "peril". One stipulation that was in place was for those that sold their catch. These folks would be required to purchase a commercial turle trappers license, ostensibly to monitor the commercial take of turtles in the state. Absolutely nothing wrong with this system which was working perfectly since only three commercial licenses, for the entire state, had been issued in the past decade.
We were informed after the fact that a group of "concerned citizens" had gone to the legislature and requested a change in the licensing and permitting requirements since the asian markets were rapidly depleting north american turtle stocks. Supposedly china and southeast asia have eaten themselves out of house and home with their native species and were now voraciously eating their way through our stock of turtles. More on that later.
Now let me explain how licensing and permitting work in the state of Georgia, which is very similar to many other states. Here in Georgia the only entity with the sole power to require licensure is the legislature. It is their sole perogative and not even the executive is required to make it happen. Once this requirement is passed via resolution it is delegated to whichever board or agency tasked with regulation, in this case it was the Wildlife Resources Board (WRB) which is appointed by the Governor to oversee the Wildlife Resoucres Division (WRD) and Dept of Natural Resources (DNR). Without express legislative approval and intent no agency of this state can issue a license they may only issue a permit and that is subject to broad guidelines issued by the legislature in the formation of said agency.
Now where we came in was only after the legislature; upon the request of the Sierra Club, River Keepers, a consortium of University of Georgia biologists and other ne'er do wells; had issued to the WRB a resolution that the WRB was now required to establish and enforce a set of regulations governing the take of freshwater turtles in the state of Georgia. At no time did this resolution change or alter licensing in any way.
Sounds reasonable in concept but the plain and simple fact is once done the die was cast. I and others set out to see just how we could possibly get the very best outcome for Georgia residents who wished to continue trapping turtles and hopefully earn all or part of a living from that pursuit. How little did we know that we would waste the next two years fighting over the scraps of a dead industry.
Now to tell the truth, turtle trapping histically was never a large scale enterprise and very few people ever made their sole income from the waters of this state but more than a few fur trappers, fishermen and others have supplemented their incomes with wild caught turtles. It has only been in recent years that what appeared to be a threat to our native freshwater turtles has arisen and that is the assumed commercial overharvest to supply the asian markets. As we would later learn after repeated demands of documentation not a single entity in this state or others could provide a single shred of evidence that this was occurring in this state or any other; not one bill of lading, not one customs inspection, not one USDA inspection sheet, only the anecdotal comments of the very actors that requested the resolution in the first place. One would think that Georgia with the world's busiest airport and a major east coast deep water port and an extensive hub of interstate transport could substantiate with at least a single piece of paper that our turtles had in fact at some point in the recent past had exited the state for points unknown.
The fact is the only substantiaton came from our side of the table that in fact turtles were leaving the state. This was provided by three gentlemen who had the foresight to establish, completely on their own hook, commercial turtle farming operations so that no longer would they be dependant upon wild caught turtles for export. While all of their stock of turtles originated in the wild the export trade consisted almost solely of the offspring of this stock and the captive held turtles on the farms was by and large self sustaining with only a limited need for replenishment from wild stocks. Ultimately this was the final nail but we didn't realize until to late.
To cut to the chase, the outcome was that citizens may take and possess up to ten freshwater turtles per day for personal use on a standard fishing license. NWCOs could continue to trap an unlimited number of freshwater turtles as long as the turtles were held no longer than 72 hours and then either released back into the same watershed or humanely euthanized. You can thank your's truly for that. The farmers were allowed to keep the turtles they already possessed, though no clarification of personal property was granted, as long as they met standards of housing/fencing and record keeping was maintained and made their operations available for inspection by DNR personnel with limitations upon that. The farmers would also be allowed to obtain upon request "brood stocking permits" for the replenishment of turtle stocks as needed for replacement or expansion. These permits would be issued on a first come first served basis in conjunction with established quotas for each of the regulated species and they could contract with any licensed commercial turtle trapper to fill these brood stock permits. It's the quotas that became the rub.
Some species immediately aquired such low quotas that a single brood stock permit when filled, if it even could meet the actual need, will close the season for that species for the entire year. Even the common snapper has a quota of only 1500 for the entire state. Now I do not know if you know the current population levels of common snappers in Georgia but that number can be met in a single drainage in a single county without ever noticing the difference. Apparently neither does the DNR as there has never in the entire history of the state been a survey of our turtles and as I was told when asked when, "it'll never happen".
Effectively trappers like Kirk Dekalb who rely on several different opportunities of income lost one whole option.

Now I can not hope to have you or anyone else try to understand just how painful this process was for me and others, especially since we are talking about a very small niche in the overall trapping community that quite frankly didn't even get the attention of the Georgia Trappers Association. What it did for me was to peel back the curtain of just how we in the Nuisance Wildlife Control Industry will be dealt with when the time comes.

Some group of "concerned citizens" will approach the legislature with a reasonable request.....

wanting more standards = fear IMO.
Some places just don't have the money to make a living at this guys, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. The thirty dollar guys actually have a place in my opinion.

Yes, the thirty dollar guys do as does the fur guys doing favors.

I first became an advocate of regulation upon seeing the horrid state of things among some of my so called competitors. I like anyone who has been here more than a minute have seen the cheats, cons and criminals. It sickened me enough to say "that something needs to be done". I think that thought has occured to all of us at some time or another. With time I have sadly come to an acceptance of it and no longer even bat an eye at it. My heart is cold and calloused, I guess, and now know that no amount of regulation will stop that. Just as JC said we would always have the poor I say we will always have crooks. Then as the economy faltered we got an influx of the unemployed trappers joining the ranks. The temptaion was the cry for regulated barriers of entry. While tempting from a purely selfish interest my principles say not just no but [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] NO. Instead I welcome this new blood with open arms, join us and add to our knowledge and skill base and if I can help lessen the learning curve my number is posted.
So I was left with a quandry. Just what do we really need? Can it be applied reasonably and fairly? Why do we need it in the first place?
On the first two I am still trying to hash it all out. My gut says no I do not need it as I already know what I need to know and those who manage to stumble their way into our ranks will figure it out or leave. Reasonable? Fairly? There ain't no such thing. So that leaves the why and I hope my earlier posts explain my thoughts on the subject.

I do know this, whatever comes we are going to have to religiously fight to protect the small guy. If regulation ever becomes a right of entry or good old boys club then we might as well sign up with the democratic party.

You're [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] straight it's fear! I've sat across the table from the enemy and gotten steamrolled. It will happen, rest assured, if we do nothing. The Henry County Beekeepers Association, of which I am the VP and presumptive President next year, has as our motto "Fail to Plan, Plan to Fail". I offer that simple phrase as what should be our battle cry for the future.

In rereading some of my posts it may seem as if it's the PCOs that are a concern. Not at all, just presenting them as but one example of how it could come down. I am not anti PCO, some of our best operators are PCOs (Winkleman and Jameson), my post on turtle trapping is more than likely how it will play out. The PCOs are just as content as we are to stay under the radar and I am sure after the mess in CA and FL they will be loathe to stir that pot again all the while the enemy is out there flying under our radar.

The main thing is that PCOs as a state regulated industry can defer all industry assaults directly to the state and the state will have to defend it's position. We as NWCOs are singly vunerable and without regulation or in my example a board of oversight are completely open to the whims of the legislature.

I know from reading your posts that you want to do something, but do the right thing. I dont see a national club helping anyone at the state level (And thats where the state rules are created). The real fire power would be to create a branch off of the state trappers assn, and work with them at the rondes, and trapper training corses for training purposes, and demos. The state assns have there finger on the pulse of the new and coming rules. and our representatives have a working relationship with the big wigs up in the sugar shack. Fur trapping is still an industry in the United States, just like ADC work.

One thing i'm afraid of with the standards is that they usually come down to money, not a way to keep something professional. I know i didn't have the money to spend when i first started out.
Now, i do understand the point of the standards. I just hope that if it happens it will be done correctly and actually HELP us.

Mike, I agree wholeheartedly! The problem is with some of the people in high positions. For some strange reason, a few of them feel that ADC is trying to weaken the WTA. If they made ADC a part of the WTA, they would certainly strengthen their organization well into the future. I'm amazed that they can't see the handwriting on the wall. This probably pertains to other states as well. By the way, Mike, I'm sure a lot of guys who just read your post are wondering what the heck you are talking about. Wisconsin has such a strong trapper's association that it can hardly be believed in many other states.

That's a fact Paul, as a matter of fact, the trappers assn in Wisconsin represents the ADC industry already. I would just like to see it represented more at training and Rondes. I've never seen the one way door, or any bat exclusion methods shown there. Although we do have a strong trappers assn., It's always the same 4-5 people who do all the work setting these things up, It just doesn't seem fair to me. All a guy has to do is show up and ask how he can help and he can bar tend, set up tables, lots of stuff. I guess I'm gona have to listen to my own words and make time like the others this year.Now there will be 5-6

David, that's a good point! If no better argument exists for state oversight (and I am NOT necessarily supporting it), the idea that the bureaucrats would have to defend their laws sounds pretty good. BTW, in Missouri we have NO permit, license or registration required to do WCO work.
Anybody - and I do mean anybody - with a pickup and a coupla traps can call himself a WCO.

So, Dave, are you saying that an ADC guy doesn't need a trapping license to set those traps?

One thing that keeps popping up in replies, state and local. Absofriggenlutley this should be a local issue and I can only speak to the specifics of my own state. I could care less what happens to the rest of you, . Seriously I do but it ain't none of my [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] business who, how or what you do. If you want it and ask for it I will go to the mat for almost all of you but ultimately we each have to fight our own fights on our own hometurfs. So let each of our states do their own thing and let see what shakes out as good and what doesn't.

http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/trapping It looks like they have a real nice site Dave.

"at any time and without permit" IF there is damage done by the wildlife. Otherwise it's fur harvesting and, of course, requires a trapping license.
You'd be surprised at the number of calls we get along the lines of "there's a coyote running around in back of my property. Can you remove him?" Uh, no. He's just a coyote, doing what coyotes do. Don't let your three-pound dog out there, or your cat.