Fox Problem

Got a call from a friend who has guinea fowl which he allows to free range. He also has a few chickens. His neighbor has dogs and feeds stray cats. He’s been losing some guinea fowl steadily over the past year here and there. A week or so ago the neighbor witnessed a fox take one down.

He asked me to help him but given the fact that he allows them to free range, the neighbors dogs and cats which also roam, I’m assuming that any type of kill trap is out of question. Other than hunting with a predator call at night, I have no clue what to suggest.

Even with a cage trap he’d probably never be able to catch anything other than a stray cat.

I appreciate your input on this matter.

I would use a cage. Plenty of bait that cats don't have much interest in that are appealing to fox.

Could you elaborate on the type of bait that you’re speaking about?

I would look for either a dead chicken or a guinea fowl (we have hundreds of chicken houses around here, so a chicken is easy to come by). My thought is if that is what it eats, give him what he wants.

Sounds good T, I appreciate it. Will certainly give it a try.

I had a large live trap that was long. I put a 1x2 welded wire wall inside the trap. I use this to put live bait in. There was a door on top of the cage. I use quail as bait. Worked for me. I bet a starling would work great or maybe two. But they need lots of water. JMO

I get these calls every spring. Same scenario of free range chickens, roaming dogs and cats, and somebody blaming an evil fox. That is a pointless and thankless job in which nobody can be successful. Free range chickens and they blame the fox? I have had chickens for 30 years and never lost one to a predator. This is not a job for a nuisance trapper. They need other help.

Free range chicken may be the problem, but understanding what is going on with the property will benefit you more than working up or buying a bunch of baits. Using what is there is great but if they are free range, it wouldn't be hard for predators to scoop one up. Need to get a handle on the chickens etc and run traps. If the owner wants to handle the issue they will do what it takes, if that means rounding up all the livestock for a period of time so the issue is addressed so be it. As far as avoiding cats, nothing is guaranteed to have no attraction to other animals. Most say use sweets around cats, there are sweet odors that do a number on attracting cats, knowing which ones to stay away from helps to better your chances. The cage along with the odors associated with it could be the ticket. Me personally, if I were to worry about cats entering my traps and tried to come up with a lot of elaborate methods to avoid them, I'd never set a trap and wouldn't make a dime.

Thank you gentlemen, there's a lot of good information here to consider.

So what I've gathered from the most recent information is that the landowner needs to either round up his livestock to deter the predators, or at least provide an opportunity whereas the predator can be eliminated without the interference of the livestock. If not, given the stray cat issue, this sounds like a futile situation.

Is this a good summary of the information provided?

Although I understand that such a situation is not impossible to fix, I see now that it's not far from it given all of the surrounding enticements for the predators. Too bad the predators couldn't pick up a few stray cats every now and again. When I asked him if he cared whether or not the cats were thinned out he said that he didn't like them, but that his neighbor does and that he has a good relationship with the neighbor and wouldn't want to jeopardize that. So as far as thinning out the cat herd is concerned, that too is not an option.

Another question if you all don't mind, what size trap/brand, etc... should I use?

I see that a trapping supply company has a Freedom Brand trap that is 15"x18"x36" model and is recommended for use in trapping bobcats and other similarly sized animals. I also see that Harbor Freight has a 32 in. x 15 in. x 10 in. Medium Animal Trap for $25. I understand that quality issue here, but if a HF trap will actually hold a fox, of course I'd rather go with that. I'm not a professional ADC person who needs top of the line equipment, just a guy helping out a friend.

Are you licensed to do this? Are you qualified to do this? Do you have the knowledge, skills, abilities, and equipment to do this? What is your motivation for doing this?

Why would a fox go into a cage to get a bird when chicken dinners are literally wandering around free and easy for the taking?

The neighbor needs to accept that a fox and other predators including the neighbor’s roaming cats and dogs will eat his free ranging chickens or change what is within his control. Put the birds in a coop. The neighbor needs to understand that roaming cats and dogs are at risk. Is there a leash law? In the county in Ohio where I live for example there is a leash law requiring all cats and dogs to be on a leash. Will either of these people change? Probably not.

Have you ever heard the maxim, “No good deed goes unpunished”? Please reread my post above.

Other replies in quote.

I truly appreciate your input. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed so a literal, “DON’T DO IT” and here’s why would work better next time for me to grasp the concept.

My only motivation is to help a guy who was given my number from a farmer who allows me to trap his land. And yeah, I was going to charge a few dollars for my troubles but nothing like a real ADC person. Just enough to cover expenses.

I will definitely pass your words of wisdom into the land owner and let him know that it is HE who is causing the problem here. And that the fox is just being a fox.

Seriously, thanks again for saving me. I feel like I owe you one.

You type a "few" chickens and fowl, how much is a few? I've trapped farms with dozens upon dozens of chickens and other livestock. If the folks on the farms I trap could manage to secure their livestock to allow trapping. I couldn't imagine securing a "few" chickens and fowl would be hard at all. Keeping up with the animals is half the battle regarding feed, cleanliness of the area they frequent,, coops etc. I don't recall ever telling a homeowner who called for removals any of that ^^^^^^^^^^^^ lol. Either way, attempting to do something is better than doing nothing,

I had absolutely no intent to insult or malign you. I was hoping to help you make a more informed decision about getting involved in a situation where there is little chance to accomplish the landowner / customer’s goals.

Please understand that as soon as you accept money for this job, the customer will expect very specific results. Frankly, with all of the activity, trapping a fox or foxes will be extremely difficult if not impossible. I was hoping to point this out to you so that you may realize what you may be getting yourself into.

I also have trapped on lands with most sort of livestock and animals. And the customers are usually good about securing the animals for the duration of the trapping. They have incentive because they are paying for results. They should want me to be efficient. However these chicken people sound like many I have met who will not put their chickens away even during the trapping. Plus you really have no control over the neighbor and their activities.

In your state, are you permitted to charge for ADC work without a specific license? Doing paid ADC work can put you at risk for liability issues. These are issues that you may have not considered since you are a relatively new trapper.

I applaud you for wanting to help, and as a trapper you may be able to help. Just watch out for yourself and protect your assets.

I have had many of these calls which were from upset unrealistic and unworkable people. To me these are jobs that are not worth accepting based upon my experiences. Hopefully your situation will be much better.

You may not be a good trapper yet, but you will be. You have worked hard, tried hard, had some success and some frustrations. However, you have not given up. You are right here discussing this with guys who have quite a bit of experience and you are holding your head up, not slinking away.

Through this website and the people here you have access to ideas from people representing literally thousands of years of experience. It is apparent that the guys responding to your questions here have much experience. It would be interesting to know the total years to see from what amount of collective experience you are benefitting.

Trapperman is designed with a wonderful spirit of trappers sharing information and resources. I had the pleasure of knowing Paul’s father Charles. He personally spent time with me teaching me the fine points of trap modification and tuning as well as a great amount of information about animals, nature, and of course trapping. We worked together to start a local chapter of Furtakers of America. Charles was a wonderful, kind, and generous man who helped many others. It is in that same way that I am trying to help you.

Please keep us informed with this project. Best wishes.

Most use contracts to put them specifics in place and have the homeowner sign for acknowledgement so both party(s) are on the same page. So in the event if the trapper isn't successful due to specifics that were noted and not addressed by the homeowner the trapper has done their part. No guarantees in this game to begin with. I would still attempt the job, if anything you'll prolly help the individual get a start on taking care of the issue. If adc'n is what you're thinking about doing, turning down opportunities to get experience is something I wouldn't do often. Complicated jobs due to homeowner infliction are great experience, and will help you to make decisions on future jobs.

Just be clear when you type up an agreement/contract, whether you're doing it for trapping privilege, money etc. I enjoy a challenge, no two jobs are the same, I don't care what the armchair experts say. One way or another you will learn quite a bit from these types of jobs, and the most vital part of this whole job, is that you will have first hand experience on it. Isn't that what everyone is always preaching ? Or you can do like most and only tackle the easy jobs that don't take much thought and when complicated jobs like these come around be totally lost. This is based off of vague info on the property setup etc. Good Luck!

There will always be a need for predator control for those who have livestock. Fox, coyote, raccoon, skunk, opossum the list goes on. Recommendations on how to address these issues are sometimes just as good.

Willy & TDHP, I truly appreciate all of the information that you're providing and I honestly hope that you have more to say because I like learning and gaining knowledge in the trapping world.

I'd had many hours to think about what both of you have said previously, and now have had time to read your most recent posts. My idea/plan of approach at this time, should I consider trying to help out the person, was to first establish where the people have observed the fox itself and give me the details of routes of travel. I was then thinking about trying to track the animal away from the dwellings so that I could possibly find a route of travel and set something up far enough away to limit incidentals. I'd also contemplated picking a site that's a good distance away and placing a camera with some type of food source. Once I establish a feeding site and get the known animal on camera, and see what else is visiting or not visiting the site, then I can possibly make a better informed decision as to what to do and what not to do instead of just setting and praying.

As for how many chickens/fowl, he said that he has approximately a dozen fowl and two chickens. He said that he started last year with a dozen fowl, they dwindled down to 2, and then he restocked. He said that he'd heard that if you also introduce a few chickens into the mix that they will keep the fowl fairly localized and won't allow them to free range very far. He got the fowl to clean up the ticks, etc... around his homestead. He told me that he tries to round them up nightly but sometimes by the time that he gets home from work they're already roosted. This then brought up another point in my mind, if they roost in the trees, etc..., then the problem isn't at night, it's during the day when he would allow them to free range anyways. Again, I understand that this fox is literally just being a fox. Too bad it couldn't focus on some of the stray cats also.

It's funny that you mentioned a contract. I sat here yesterday writing a simple agreement stating that they acknowledge that I'm not a licensed professional and that they agree to name me as a co-property manager for the duration of the agreed upon time. I also stated that I will attempt to help to the best of my knowledge and ability but that results in these situations are never guaranteed. I also stated in there that any theft, damage, loss, etc... of equipment would be the responsibility of the land owner to reimburse.

I'm not dead set on helping the guy but feel that if someone actually comes to me for help, then I want to help. We as men don't ask for help much so he must really be in some sort of situation as to ask for it.

Willy, I truly do appreciate your input, as well as you TDHP. At no time did I think that you were trying to insult me, it just seemed as though you were becoming frustrated due to my lack of knowledge, which is obviously a great deal. Again, like you said, which is why I'm here on this site. I honestly have to applaud you guys for your willingness to share and help. I've heard it many times in the past year and a half that such sharing was never the case in the trapping world. I'll be turning 43 soon and I have many regrets, one of which is that I never showed interest in trapping until about a year and a half ago. I've lost so much time doing things that really didn't matter instead of doing something like this.

So please, if I decide to help out this gentleman, tell me what you think about my ideas listed above in this post.

Chad

If you catch a cat in a cage trap shake it up, and turn it loose. He wont go back in the trap.

One of our adc lures for fox,raccoon,skunk and opossum in this trap. Lots of neighborhood cats that use the area to access other properties, and trapped the target animals. I haven't had issues with cats when doing adc jobs with these types of lures. Most start running into issues when you start to get into the fish, cat, dog foods. I was told ahead of time about the cat issues in that area, but that was the activity area of the critters that needed to be removed as well. If I listened to half of what many folks typed on how to do jobs on this site, I'd make little to no money, because all my time and efforts would be on methods to avoid X Y and Z instead of focusing on the removal or I would refuse to do jobs because they weren't easy or straight forward..

That’s reassuring to know and see TDHP. Seriously, I wonder how something like that would work in a barn for coon since there are several Barn cats. I’m definitely interested in something such as that since a lot of my best places have cats but I have to trap 100 yards away from the barn when there’s fox and coon tracks right at the barn.

Might want to point out the our most deadliest killer is actually the domesticated/feral cat. Down here a manager/owner/etc is just as happy with a feral cat caught as he is a coon or possum, especially in quail country.

TDHP,

I'm not sure if I missed something, but are you saying that all you use to trap those animals is a simple cage trap?

The bigone - why must you stay so far away from the barn? Who made that rule? Here in Ohio, there are distances that a trapper must stay away from buildings and homes. However I include in my contract a waiver of that and specifically state that the customer is knowingly authorizing me to set traps in, around, under, and next to any manmade structure.

Wanna - Yes, feral, unowned, free ranging, and wild spirit cats are killing machines. Do to technicalities and political foolishness we can do nothing about it.

Too Tired. Brain shut off. Time for bed.

Yes Sir, simple cage along with bait and lure with knowledge of the animals I'm after which is continuous learning and a skill set I continue to work on everyday. I'll be honest with you, there aren't any tricks when it comes time for trapping the above typed animals, I know some want you to believe there is but they will all enter cages without the assistance of 30+ years of experience in a little jar "convenience for the trapper" or being in the business for 40 + years and doing it for a living or any other bs excuse. If there was a trick it would be hard work and lots of time in the field working on the objective.

Experience is only as good as how the individual comprehends and interprets it to then apply it in a practical application. As we seen in the past here, just because folks go and learn something doesn't mean they will understand it and have the experience work for them without working on it, no two jobs are the same and the methods taught don't always work which is why people need to be able to think on their own, because once the puppet master is done with the class and they enter the field and what they've been taught is just not working..now what?

You'll find you don't need a lot of that if you have somewhat of an understanding on what is going on with the jobs or area you're trapping, pretty basic stuff. Which is why turning down opportunities to get the experience needed in the field would be silly and people listening is even more confusing, like pawns. The "experts" may have a different opinion, but there is no magic to the end result, it's long days and being dedicated and focused on solving the issue at hand.
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No one made that rule that I know of, I just simply thought that it might be a better approach given the situation and my skill level/skill set. I asked for the guys address so that I could study the property on a map. It's looking even worse as far as setting a distance away on a possible travel route. He only owns about 3/4 of an acre and has neighboring properties to both sides and beyond. There's a road in the front of his house and another major road on the back of his property. The best that I can do is explain to him the problems that I'm presented with, along with the actual probability of making such a catch. Whether those reasons of probability are my experience, the problems presented by him and his neighbors, or a combination of both.

No big secrets over here, I set up in an area where I have sign and if no sign, I use my best judgement on habits and with a little luck if they come by the traps it's more probable than not that they will be in there for the morning check. We trap year round, and trap with the same method during breeding seasons as well. If it isn't broke, I don't fix it.



Adc bait and lures that offer a variety are my best producers. Take into consideration, just because a lure has a strong distinct odor doesn't mean it is appealing to the critters. That is why building bait and lure to your nose instead of the critters nose in my book is putting you at a disadvantage. The coon was trapped in the secondary cage at the other end of the wall, same lure no magic.

I really appreciate this. It won't only assist me in any help that I may be able to offer someone, but it also gives me a different look and understanding of animalistic nature in general which will help me during trapping season. It's all very interesting for sure.

Again, please feel free to share more. This is definitely good information for any trapper.

I'm adding my two sense in this, and I mean sense. Canines without a live bait, do not readily enter a live trap or they would be in common use. You already know you have an impossible situation with free roaming cats and dogs. I am reminded of reading the adventures of Major Boddicker of Colorado in dealing with coyotes killing sheep, in if you can not catch a problem animal close, you have to do your work catching them off sight. That means finding the travel routes predators take which are far enough away from the cats and dogs.
While you did not say how urban your area is, if you have access to areas far enough away from the dwellings that is a start. I have caught dogs a half mile from their homes. No damage done in #2 traps with two coils as all that is required on fox, and they get a sore foot and stay out of the traps. Cats in offsets still get dinged up, but tend to learn the lesson too, but the owners sometimes do not appreciate the education of keeping their roaming creatures on their own land.

I would though defend landowners and their right to have free range poultry. They pay the taxes and they have the right to run chickens unmolested by predators. Rights though come up to realities and I wonder about the fox. In my experience, I have never had any predators just take one free meal and showing self control. Predators tend to keep coming back until there is nothing left. Your poultry owner may have had a number of predators over a year's time. It could have been hawks that migrated through, fox that were caught and this fox just happened to be the one seen and is now the current problem. Horned owls get overlooked, but that is an issue for wildlife agencies.

In my area, I turn to snares for problem predators. I do not know what the regs are for them in your state, and snares are like kill traps in no second chances for non targets.

Setting up for fox on areas where they have live food is usually difficult. I usually set up off location as noted, and do a Leggett step down with a plain skunk scent to age in. I have had those take weeks to connect, but one of the most pleasant experiences I had in control work was connecting on a fox that was killing a woman's farm cats at midnight. I happened to be setting up nearby when I heard the fox be caught. I have never heard an animal scream more angry than that fox did. It was educated to traps and thought it knew everything.

I would though have the owner pen the birds up until the problem is solved. I hope something in that helped as it is a different game trapping a specific animal to just setting up a line.

What would really make "sense" is for individuals to improvise and adapt to their current situation, especially for the folks who are a cage state only. Just like many say fox won't enter a cage during breeding season, prove that theory wrong every year. If it were easy everyone would do it.

Star Flakes, thank you for your reply. I'm really enjoying trapping, even though right now I really stink at it. There's so much to learn and I love reading well written explanations of techniques and animal behavior from those who have more experience than I do.

Nothing's going to be easy about trying to help this guy. I'm meeting with him tonight at 1700. I looked up his address on a map and, I think that I stated it previously, but he only owns a 3/4 acre lot, bordered on the front and back with roads and side to side with neighbors. A guy with my experience and knowledge has absolutely no clue on what to do in a situation such as this given the other facts of feral cats, etc... All that I can come up with in my mind is to set out a cage trap and hope that it works. And I'm going to be completely upfront about all of this with the man. As you all may have noticed, I'm not a great trapper, hopefully that soon gets rectified, and I'm definitely not a professional ADC guy. I'm just trying to help the guy out is all.

Ill ad my name to the list of caution. Don't have any advice but becareful and have fun.

Thank you Steel, I’m still not sold on it myself.

You are required to have a nuisance control permit in PA in the off season .

Thanks Rick, I appreciate that. Not that I want to become an ADC guy, but can you point me in the direction on a website or some reading as to how one might accomplish getting said permit or certified in PA? I’m just curious as to what it takes.

https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter147/subchapTtoc.html

Thank you Rick, I appreciate that.

Ok all, met with the guy and low and behold there’s actually a connection that I kind of know him. Long story though. I’ll simply be giving him advice on things that he can try.

He said that the fowl will roost on his deck and the fox will come up there after them.

Check my idea. He had a big plastic dog crate for his pit bulls to go to the vet. I told him to put the rooster in it as live bait. Then to butt up against the front of the carrier with the cage. What do you think?

Just a little redneck ingenuity, not much of an ADC method I’m sure. But if it works it ain’t stupid.

Oh, and we’re taking my 10 year old daughter out next weekend for the PA youth spring turkey hunt to get this fella or his brother.