Looking for older DWL Bat Traps pm me Thanks

Okay, what's a DWL Bat Trap?

it is the guys name Dave
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f363/slasherxxx/Bats/NuisancebatJobBeaverlake2_0163.jpg

Dannel,

I'll have to be the guy to start this and unfortunately it is has been too often on here.

Why trap the bats? You can exclude bats from any home or cabin without one. Relocation of
bats is not effective, not BCI approved and in general just poor management.

With bats already facing serious threats and myths and misconceptions, why use these devices
if you don't have to?

I know others have stated the clients like to see the bats (not a good reason to put them in jeopardy),
that they drive them to the country (bats cover lots of ground and just like birds can home back to
a location that most any nwco would be willing to drive to).

I lived in northeastern MI, know the country, the cities, and just can't see why you would need to employ
these, but hey maybe you were just going to buy them to make part of an antique collection for devices
that are obsolete or should have been rendered illegal.

Do you know another operator up there who also uses these traps and told you this was the way to?

I won't apologize for my rant, but will say that I am passionate about bats being excluded in a proper
way, and not during maternity season, and not being captured in traps when it is unnecessary and transporting
bats once in that trap should run afoul of wildlife laws especially with the increased conservation status concerns.

Ok, floor is open....

Justin

Trapping / sampling from a colony tell if u have males/ females or an accurate amount...

Justin, trapping evidently is a legal practice in Michigan because I know Duane "Dew" Haske utilizes that technique. It is not a legal practice in Georgia and I'm in full agreement with you.

Hi HD
yes it is legal to trap here in my home state and in my Business I offer Both exclusion's and Bat Trapping and can say as any ethical trapper you don't lose Bats By Trapping them .

I do have good success in relocating the bat around lakes and farms with out touching the Bats here is a video of a Barn release and didn't lose a one. www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=600255296659434&set=vb.121975427820759&type=2&theater
I know Other controller's who does Bat Live Trapping Bats and yes Dew is one who does this method with great success as well so I guess being it might not be legal for you to do this task in your business or never tried it well don't slam someone with another way to Offer a professional way to take care of a nuisance problem .

Thing is when you offer two ways to take care of the problem and the people who sign your check chooses bat trapping and you show success in a Live Roost like I showed you in my Video you can say what you wish and the video is proof the bats are unharmed .

Like to say we don't do Bat work in June an July if possible and why I say possible is if they are getting in the living quarter's we will do it being Bats can be Rabies vector in living quarters and it is best for my customer's .

Let me know if the Video works for you it is my Face Book Page and thanks for being Passionate about bats as I am .

How far do you have to take the bats so they don't come back?

I own about 10 of them,and at least that many of the newer ones.
I am interested in selling them.
I operated a wildlife pest control company for 15 years and am no longer doing so.
I did a lot of bat work.
My DWL traps are for sale.

Jim, I've heard it said that if you blindfold them and then spin them around three times real fast, that they lose there bearings. ( Oh yeah, I almost forgot. This only works if you're in Siberia )

The small browns from my area travel several hundred miles every fall and back in the spring. Just wondering how far to take them so they don't come back in a few days.

Oh wait a video? Well that changes everything!

Dannel, clients dont know what bat traps are till you tell them, so lets be honest and say if you don't offer it they don't know it exists.

Guess I need to launch ban the bat trap this year.

At least for MI where it seems good proven exclusion just isn't fancy enough.

PSB how much are the traps worth. I have several and hve offered to use them to F&W if they would want to examine some some out of building. I quit using them because I like to use the bats to check my work. When I take the valves or nets down after a week or so and I still have live bats I know my work is not done. If I take them a long distance clean out the attic and a year or two later there are live bats and guano in the attic I can always refer to my one year warranty but I would feel like a terrible person.
If I was going to use a bat trap and didn't have several I'd jump on PSB's offer as they do work well.

I wouldn't use them for bats, but it looks like something that could easily be modified into a multi-catch holding cage for Flyers-Red Squirrels-or even Chipmunks if you could get them for a reasonable price.

During our blackout period I offer to seal up the interior so the bats can't get into the living quarters.

It is hard to tell customers that I can't do anything for them until August 15th. So having an option for them is nice.

Interior seals are a great option and we offer that when they have had them in the house.

Sometimes it is only a couple spots inside and folks can feel more comfortable till fall.

Bat work definitely requires being able to educate and calm the client through that interaction.

Most Bats I take them 5 to 7 miles to 30 some miles depends on the job after Bats are out of Home they do get a seal up an if Bat do return to any of the areas they will not have the same home they had before I got there . As you know it is wild life and no Guarantee's Bats will stay where transplanted and there isn't no charge to a Transplant .

HD
Every phone call that comes in for Bats i normally explain because Most customer's don't know the difference between excluding to Bat Trapping it is my job to sell my service and once explained they like to see the result's not just to know the noise is gone . when I do the exclusion I offer a Year guarantee from Date of completion.

Bat trapping they also feel they get the moneys worth being I Document everything in photo's or Video and I show them the Results of using Bat traps and as far as exclusion Tubes you can tell a lot of the time by the questions they ask ...........( is the Bats really Gone ) and that's a 5 Day deal when Trapping is 2 to 3 days depends on how many Bats there are .
Ok enough for now . Thanks for your input ; )

I did many,many bat jobs,I had employees,paid workers comp,took out taxes etc.I loved catching bats,and my best was over 400 in one house,in one night in the traps.Most jobs were 0 to 25 bats.I sealed up,and hung the traps at the main exits.
Pa made it illegal to capture bats,but I continued to use them,BUT left the trap door open,therefore it became an exclusion device.
I guarrenteed my bat work for 3 years.
If the house is sealed,the bats can not regain entry.
Some houses,and buildings can not be bat proofed.

Got a 44 ft werner ladder id like to get rid of

When a house can't be bat proofed you can still seal the interior and separate people and bats, or walk a way, if you trap and drive 30 miles or less and release you arent going to beat the bats back to the house. So what did you do?

Amazing that bat researchers and biologists need to acquire special permits and licenses to mist net or harp trap, yet anyone can
buy a bat trap and just go to work and translocate.

This seems like an issue that needs more light brought to it so it can't be some dirty little secret.

Hope you are solid with the proper exclusion methods because I have no intention of dropping this issue.

Is this another nwcoa thread? Hd, that's his business model and some guy (you) from the interwebs is not going to change it.

Aaron,

I care about the resource nationally, the industry as well,
no need to drag associations into this as they didnt post it I did.

People can creat change from anywhere in the world and all it takes is
drive, focus and passion for the issue.

How would it be if traps sold in PA were to show up as the first White-Nose syndrome cases in
Northern lower Michigan?

Talk about ruining a resource and industry at the same time.

You don't have to support my view but don't for a second believe I
can't change something in another state.

Happens every day in this country.

I suppose you think you are the only one who cares HD?

How would it be if traps sold in PA were to show up as the first White-Nose syndrome cases in
Northern lower Michigan?
The traps haven't been used in 6 years,mabe since you are so smart,you can prove to me if white nose syndrome is in those traps,and more important,how long it can survive in a box without a host animal.Facts,not your best guess.
I have read down through some of your writings,and get a very good feel of your arrogance looking down your long nose at the little people you are supposedly trying to educate.Arrogence being the key word.
Hope you are solid with the proper exclusion methods because I have no intention of dropping this issue.
A fine example of arrogance,that you are better than the little people.I did several hundred bat jobs,and guarreented in a contract my exclusions for 3 years,had very few call backs,and honored my word.
Amazing that bat researchers and biologists need to acquire special permits and licenses to mist net or harp trap, yet anyone can
buy a bat trap and just go to work and translocate
Arrogence again.At the time it was legal in PA,no special permits needed.The customer loved it,and I loved it,as it worked very well.
This seems like an issue that needs more light brought to it so it can't be some dirty little secret.
Dirty little secret?,bring it on you arrogant sob.
Non bat photo
concession stand 127,Lincoln Financial Stadium,where the Philadelphia Eagles play.
They dont let any ol bumbling idiot in that stadium to catch a destructive raccoon.

Bats in WP township building

Caught the bats in this trap,after doing a sealing of the entire building.3 year guarantee ,and didnt get a call back.

Released the bats

Well I've never contemplated plastic surgery but maybe I should for my long nose.

Haven't degraded anyone with name calling so I guess currently I'd say the only arrogance I see
Is from the guy using defamatory phrases.

My skin is plenty thick and what I'm saying about bat traps
has been said by many with all those decades of experience with the
other options so I know I'm not just speaking for myself.

Never claimed anyone's exclusion didnt work just stated there are readily available
methods that don't require the use of the trap device.

It is irrelevant to me what a client loves if it isn't right or necessary to resolve the issue.

You should probably just thank me for helping you sell off your traps as this discussion
will no doubt make a sale quicker.

Arrogant and SOB and Long nosed all in one morning, can't imagine where this is heading
over the life of the thread.

I stand by what I said.

As do I, have a great weekend!

Please guys, I just can't handle another argument. ( Well maybe if whiskey goes on sale I could )

HD, if every one of us killed every bat that we encountered, I figure God would just replace them. ( He does in Wisconsin )

The Rest Of You, Keep in mind that people are more aware of what's acceptable ( Including your customers ) and that bat traps are fine if you do an exclusion very quickly after the catch. If your intent is to kill bats, I can almost guarantee that this will catch up to you in lost of business.

Paul,

I know it may seem like they are prolific, but one of the reasons the type of colony loss witnesses with WNS has been so devastating is because of the low birth rate. As you know most bats have a single pup and others twin. This isn't the kind of species that can take actions or incidents that raise potential mortality rates on top of natural factors.

If we were managing Norway rats or Coyote or some other highly reproductive species I would likely not debate this so hard.

Justin

I am aware Justin. It's just always been my experience that if we lose some species, it usually has nothing to do with man. We've gained at least twenty species in our part of Wisconsin and lost two. Non native pheasant and Hungarian partridge have dissappeared and weather was the killer. If I worried about everything that everybody did, I would go nuts. ( Well, nuttier than I already am )

I, for one, stand with Justin as an articulate, thoughtful and professional scientist (him, not me!)
The "I can do it if it's legal" attitude, especially in these WNS epidemic days, will only hurt the industry. I think that's what he's trying to tell us.

WNS is an excellent example of a tragic disease ( Especially if you happen to be a small brown bat ) that had nothing to do with man.

Paul,

Current science is that initial introduction was through people into the cave environment even if now it is likely being spread from bat to bat.

Very controversial, but just one of many diseases we as humans may enhance transmission of, thus decontamination protocols for anyone coming or going from caves and cave closures and rules.

Again, Justin is absolutely correct; all reports indicate that the infectious agent was transported from Europe (where WNS is endemic, but bats are resistant) to North America on cavers' clothing.

Sure, blame it on those darned spelunkers. The next thing you know they'll blame us for global warming, freezing and monotony.

Knowing and collaborating with lots of great cavers and folks that recreate study and maintain caves for all to enjoy I'd add that this introduction wasn't ever intentional, and these communities are raising funds and are dedicated to stopping the spread of this deadly syndrome. They follow decontamination protocols, assist bat researchers and epidemiologists and others fighting to save bats from local, regional and even countrywide extinction.

Well maybe I can't win the argument but at least I have some intelligent information that I never knew before. That's a lot better than I do with my other arguments.

Hd I prefer your method of one way doors and exclusion less time and less money spent on my end.

Psb, I would not hire you or let you in my house dressed they way you are in those photos. I am not saying you aren't good at what you do, but like most people I am superficial and appearances do matter.
Good luck to both of you...

Unfortunately,for you,I'm the guy that did the hiring.
Second,you have no idea of what groundhog exclusion I may have done earlier that day .
For as ratty as I looked at times,my pest control business did 6 figures 8 and 9 years ago.
Third,I also ran and worked concrete flat work business,while running a wildlife pest control business.All with employees,workers comp,payroll taxes,and everything that goes with it
For months on end,I worked 100 plus hours a week.
How unfortunate for you that you are superficial,and could not put to use a hard,and knowledgeable worker such as me.
Edit.
Thought Id add something here.
When you gain a reputation like I had,you don't have to dress up,and put lipstick on to get the work,Mr Baxter.

Baxter ..I wouldn't give them the time of day Just sayin .. they cause enough trouble from state to state trying to be the big cheese in nuisance control Biz and you " know who are just trying to pad there pocket" Glad MI got smart and told them what to do with there control info

PSB I wouldn't let them get under your skin some guys have nothing better to do then be an Arm chair quarter Back just sayin

I don't trap bats anymore but when I did I never lost any in the trap and I do think they had the ability to come back or survive where I released them. I haven't read up on white nose recently but I believe it is spred in damp caves during the hibernation not hot attics. Either way excluding or trapping I'm not sure one or the other spreads white nose. I only have an insult for a bat trapper if he is not checking and removing the bats early a.m. and I haven't seen or heard any evidence here. I have never lost bats in a bat trap. I don't see the need to critisize either method or person doing it. PSB looks like a fit young man who works hard a uniform or something might look nicer but I'm going to guess he is a well known character in his community and people trust him because they know him. I think we need to make recommendation on what to do not so much wht not to do or people won't share anything.
PSB you probably have several p.ms because people don't want to jump into dirty water and a lot of your stuff is sold.
I would take all of tht stuff in the photos to the NTA in Ohio or the 20th WCT in Lexington Kentucky in November if Alan Huot doesn't whine to much:-) and you will sell it all. Or pm me and I may drive to Pa. and buy it all.
PSB and HD you two need to pm each other and admit y'all got crried away on the enternet

Phil who needs to trap bats when you can catch
All those fox! Gd luck tday at nafa! The numbers
You put up in a year are simply amazing! My hat is
Off to you for that! And if I was closer I would surely
But that ladder, been looking for one a little
Bigger than 40ft

[quote=Paul That's a lot better than I do with my other arguments.[/quote]
Well, those of us who are married seem to have a far lower argument win percentage than single guys...
And, PSB, you look fine for a laborer in the photos. If you want laborer $$$ and treatment, continue dressing like that; if you want professional perks, look and act like a pro.
This is not opinion or anything new, guys. Most of the world knows and accepts this. The rest are hampered by their ignorance & arrogance.

"Baxter ..I wouldn't give them the time of day Just sayin .. they cause enough trouble from state to state trying to be the big cheese in nuisance control Biz and you " know who are just trying to pad there pocket" Glad MI got smart and told them what to do with there control info"

"some guys have nothing better to do then be an Arm chair quarter Back just sayin"

Dannel,

It would appear that you have again headed down a strange road in regard to my comments. They aren't coming from any association perspective, they were my own, there are enough threads with folks arguing one side against the other which isn't just wasteful but takes a lot of space up.

This post many will be thinking is a waste of time and space as well because so many folks do this work without the bat trap and use the methods that have been developed and tested and proven as effective without the need for capture of 20-400 live bats within a box on a roof.

I am acting out of my own interest, no one told me to post it, the armchair quarterback or nothing better to do statements are beyond ridiculous, I managed to keep up with the "debate" being posed while conducting my work load 3.5 hours from home yesterday, so don't worry about me hanging out at my computer in my boxers trying to think of a "zinger" for you.

I am concerned about anything that I see as an issue for bat conservation or for professional bat excluders across the country. I have attended enough meetings with the folks trying to research, enhance and benefit bat conservation to know that many are misguided about what excluders do and how we benefit bats by providing a positive interface with the public and calming the often irrational fears of just seeing a bat in the yard flying.

Throughout time we benefit from better technology, whether that is paws i trip pans for footholds that reduce non target catches, enhanced understanding about more swivels in your chains, better live trap setups like we see on here daily for the myriad of mesocarnivores that people work with, and yet with bats my issue would come down the same.

Since with other wildlife we truly need traps in the majority of situations, I can understand why we would fight to keep them in place.

With bats I'm not sure how many decades ago people created and developed the one way valve systems being widely used and accepted, but that method is in every extension pub, training manual and in the minds of bat biologists, even homeowners I see at their homes who have issues.

So if I approach this from a purely what is needed to do the remove bats from a structure standpoint, I cannot see why someone would justify keeping the bat trap in legal use.

As a wildlife professional, you make the call on what is best for your clients, if you have a couple of solid options you can and many do, allow the homeowner to make the call on what is best, for pigeon exclusion in my case this might be, do you like this ledge product or that one. Most of that is aesthetics.

But would I ever let a homeowner decide what devices were best that involved the capture of an animal, or in this case anywhere up to hundreds of animals in a small box?

Not on your life.

The FACT is that this device is an antiquated tool at this stage in what we all know is available. If it was necessary and desired it would be sold widely and commonly accepted, but it isn't.

Now folks use a variety of valves that have been showcased on here by some great folks that are willing to share their knowledge to help us all as an industry, these folks are from all "camps" in this two sided debate that has been going on, so again, this isn't coming from a "side."

I have seen amazing devices created out of PVC and plywood attached to homes, soffits, commercial buildings, fluorescent light carrier tubes that act as one ways, netting, and a variety of other simple and proven tactics that allow the bats to go without you putting your hands anywhere near them, without you taking them anywhere, and without you holding them in your possession.

So while the debate got very heated and I know I'll still get criticized for my stance as some sort of radical nut (no worry on my end, being called any number of names is more sad than anything) I'll still feel the way I do and still push this issue.

We've been taught as an industry or field that losing a device is not acceptable as it opens some sort of floodgate. I understand this argument when it comes to foothold traps and other such devices that folks have fought for.

We don't harvest bats, we are rarely asked to catch bats (except the ones inside a living space with a homeowner), we have other proven effective and cost effective options that tens of thousands are using across the country and the world to exclude bats.

So tell me again, why someone should legally be allowed to set a box on a roof with a dryer hose attached and obtain anywhere from 5-500 bats in a single night?

To what end?

We don't need this and I guarantee this device will eventually rise to the ire of the folks who do have power as you folks in the eastern and midwestern states see WNS expand its grip.

Bats are dying by the millions and somehow a few folks believe having the right to trap up to 500 in a plastic box is sensible management in the face of more proven, logical exclusion techniques.

Any post I make in the future on this when it comes up will stay on this topic line, folks can say what they like, call me whatever they'd like, my song will remain the same and I will be pushing this issue and it won't be from my armchair!

Justin

Justin - you go! I support you 100% and will team up with you on this cause.

DaveK

lol,,,,,,, Like phil said,,,,,,,when you have a outstanding reputation,,,,you do not need to wear a prom dress.........

(the right nail polish helps thooooooooo)

Okay, which one of you morons let Vinke read that post?

I trap bats when there inside the house coming going ,nothing to it make my own traps as well . Can't see anything wrong with that must be the man in the area after seeing all these web sites of local company's using my name on the adds . Must take a major bite out of your man hood have a new web site made up of such large size then Right on the first line bam you feel the need to put my name there . That's awesome thanks Guys maybe someday when you grow up you'll have atleast half my skills I have . I'll make you some specile videos then link your web sites to them explaining how and why you feel need to use my name


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaHx0oNFWWk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

pesky,,,,i googled it and no were did i see you name in the top five.............(sorry to pee on you umbrella)......

some of them do have nice sites tho.........

Now I'm just confused!

I can say I am not always in uniform when i show up on the customer's Door step and Most say when they see me with Dirty cloths they always say Busy Day Hey what I feel they look at the most is a great job one does.

LMAO

Let me rephrase what I said. I wouldn't have a problem with someone that looks like they work for a living work at my house, my wife on the other hand would have a problem.

Baxter, sounds like your married my wife's twin.

"Get out of here. You're all dirty and smell like sweat and leave those shoes outside."

It seems that the greatest concern of those who are against the use of traps is the spread of WNS. Furthermore, those who can legally use the traps and are not convinced to use exclusion methods alone will continue to do so.

With those two premises in mind, I would like to change the direction of the thread and ask, particularly Justin, what is the proper method that cave explorers and researchers use to decontaminate their equipment to prevent the spread of WNS?

If operators who use bat traps (and care about the bats as you do) have the proper information on how to clean their equipment (and actually do so between jobs), wouldn't that prevent spreading the disease. Then the issue of their use would be mute. Don't you agree?

Would you (or anyone with the proper knowledge) be kind enough to explain in detail, the steps for decontaminating the traps and equipment that WCO's may use on bat jobs?

While we do not use traps, I can think of a number of things; like respirators, knee pads, bump hats, lights, etc; that we might use from job to job that I should probably be decontaminating.

Sincerely,

Hi Dirk,

Good post and I'll gladly provide links to the most current decontamination protocol that all govt. agencies are following and that cavers follow as well. This was developed by USGS and USFWS and others and has been modified a few times due to new findings or better understanding of WNS transmission and decontamination needs.

http://static.whitenosesyndrome.org/site...nal_6.25.12.pdf

Thus far no one has put much research into the non hibernacula (cave) environments, though there are states and researchers who have studied this fungus or looked for it (conducted surveillance) in bat houses and structural roosts. Mostly this is due to the thermal conditions necessary for a "cold loving" fungus to survive.

People are testing cave environments across the country to see if for example our caves in the western U.S. provide the right thermal (temp and humidity) for it to potentially be spread and survive here, causing massive destruction of bats in the entire country.

While folks have detected the fungus in early spring after emergence in some non cave environments, this was right after emergence, so the bats may have just arrived from a cave.

Does this mean it isn't a worry? No, but it means this is currently thought to be a low risk or lower risk than typical cave environments with cold, damp conditions and hibernating bats with low immune system function (normal for their hibernation of course).

******************

WNS was brought into this discussion because bringing gear from one state to another including caving equipment or potentially any other equipment that has been in contact with bats in an infected area would be considered a poor idea, even if it is equipment used years ago or that which may be stored in some cool environment (old barn, basement, garage or shaded shed).

However, my issues with bat traps are not focused on the potential spread of WNS but rather the trap itself and catching hundreds of bats and having them in your possession without any special permit or license is not appropriate or necessary for our industry.

While the bulk of the bat exclusion community including yourself and others that I know you know, use the standard bat exclusion methods, there are obviously folks who want to "trap," it is in their DNA to say I caught 400 bats in your house, look here!

For whatever reason they decide to do it, my issue and stance is that the trap is an old idea that came along before folks all went mainstream and learned to use the most effective and accepted methods of exclusion for bats.

This throwback idea is even worse in the light of dwindling populations of bats across the East and Midwestern U.S. and Canada. We now have places where 50,000 bats in a cave have become 20 bats in a cave and that trend is not just the single cave, it is obviously across the region and local and regional extinctions are not only possible but probable even with the best scientists working with everyone possible to stop the threat.

Another example of why this is not appropriate involves capture of bats. Bat capture for any research is done with mist nets and harp traps unless they are in caves hibernating and can be handled with gloves right off the walls.

We are assisting a grad student on a project this summer in the mountains here and not only did he have to get training and show skill with these methods he had to comply and all those under him with 2 classes on animal care and use and occupational health.

While we work with a variety of these type of folks, this is just one example and shows there shouldn't be a guy with a box and a dryer hose capturing hundreds of live bats weekly or daily in Northeastern MI or anywhere else just because he is not forbidden at this time by law.

Laws have a funny way of not covering potentials and this is just a gross example where if your average wildlife managers (non-game or T&E) were sitting in a room discussing excluders, they would say, "yes those folks do a good job of getting the bats out using one way devices of all kinds and then sealing the structure."

However if someone were to say, "I know a few folks who are using a bat trap" the conversation would quickly change and I can guarantee will raise questions about the ethics of said excluders as an industry.

This is not to say if the DOH (dept. of health) wants a couple of bats due to a rabies exposure someone couldn't allow you under an exemption to utilize some device, however rabies in one bat or a bite of one bat, doesn't ever indicate an entire colony should or would be tested.

The video, pictures and other things we've been shown by those proud to use the box show another relevant topic. Folks don't seem to understand that even if you "trap" 400 bats and move them to a barn and release them, they don't necessarily stay, and even worse, many may die overnight or within days due to the stress of capture.

During my career, I have seen every wildlife species in North America is capable of capture myopathy and dying within hours, or days of release. So releasing 400 bats and thinking you just made a new colony and that all were healthy and safe is not based on any type of follow up or tracking and you aren't marking the bats so even if you go back and count, you can't tell me that it was a success.

So in summary, I'm against the trap in a straight and logical way, while there are other possibilities of threats including disease spread of transmission, it is primarily that it should have been outlawed, but hasn't been everywhere because most folks in management don't know it exists and I can guarantee you that is the case, even if a local warden or local biologist in some states does know it is there, the thousands of folks losing sleep over the millions of bats dying right now, have no idea this threat exists, until now!

I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to clarify on the WNS issues and to provide the decontamination protocol. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is an issue I believe is worth fighting for and I will be working with anyone who will listen to begin the process of removing this relic from being utilized in our industry for the betterment of not only the industry but the resource itself and our clients, who can see the normal approved methods being used by these or any other operators.

Justin

We just had our Caves and Man Made Caves tested For WNS and the Caves checked out clean. we haven't any as of yet and I do power wash my Bat traps as well as Bleach them .

Dannel,

Glad to hear you do treat your traps between locations (sincerely), for clarity, I'm not saying you or anyone using these are bad people or operators or unprofessional, I'm just saying that the bat trap isn't necessary and shouldn't be legal in our country and therefore not utilized in our industry.

Justin

Enjoyed reading this thread.

I'd like to make an argument from a purely economic standpoint to advocate exclusion.

Assumptions

Bat jobs equal money for ADC companies.
The more bats, the more bat jobs. (Provided overpopulation is not an issue)
Captured and relocated animals of any species have higher mortality rates than non-captured/relocated animals (Think of a BASS tournament)

In Ohio, WNS has hurt population. Decontamination and anything to keep the bat population as healthy as possible is preferred and better for business.

I am all for having any and every tool legal and available. I will decide how and when to use .... not some gubmint chair jockey political jackwagon.

Phil,

I was told this handle was you as well? Is that so?

PSB1011

Just asking for sake of clarity. If not my apologies for the confusion.

Justin

I am with you Phil N
I like to offer anyway I can to help a customer in there Nuisance Problem's if it means Live trapping Cage trapping or just plane grabbing with a device or hands .

I guess I don't see why some folk's don't like Bat Trapping this came up on a site Robb Russel and I started many years back Robb is one who showed his displeasure in Bat trapping along with Regginal Murray and I don't have a problem with anyone voicing there opinion but to come out and say it isn't professional is Dead wrong because it is one of the first ways study's got done and bats were captured for testing .

I also don't care for the Verbal abuse or criticism of ones Being , when this thread was started just to see if there was any Bat traps out there not being used and for sale .
Like to say thanks to those who don't have Negativity on the subject of Bat Live trapping which is a very useful tool and are still sold on the market today for the WNCO who do Bats .

I also like hearing the other side of this bat Live trapping subject so lets keep it clean and hear whats on other NWCO Mind on the Bat Live trapping Tool subject . Thank You

Dannel,

Mist netting has been used to capture bats long before this trap came around. I clarified a few posts back that I wasn't calling anyone unprofessional this isn't a personal attack, it is telling me that someone has to stand up and speak for the bats and make this trap a thing of the past, can't help that you feel the need for it, so be it until it is illegal, just making it clear I am taking that stand and have others joining me to do so that feel the same way.

The best analogy I have for you is how about if it is a legal method of euthanasia to use a 10lb sledge hammer to dispatch a raccoon caught in your clients yard in the middle of town?

Would you do it just because someone hadn't made it illegal?

Of course you wouldn't because it is ridiculous and so is the idea of NEEDING to trap bats as a wildlife control operator.

You are trying to sell it as NECESSARY.

It isn't, plain and simple, you, me and thousands of others have proven there are more efficient and effective ways that are proven, accepted by bat conservation groups, fish and wildlife groups and a myriad of others whose opinions matter to our legal ability to do this work.

So I guess my idea of using a bat trap and then selling them on Craig's List is not going to make me a millionaire?

Justin,

Thank you for providing the info on cleaning the equipment!!!

Sincerely,

hd......psb is not nichols

Thanks Vinke and no problem Dirk glad to help.

Justin

I do some Bat capturing with Mist netting I have caught some where they are not living in this 450,000.00 home using mist nets they were just Roosting on the House Making a mess but not no more there not .

All I want to say is it is a service I offer and if my client chooses Bat trapping over my other methods I have to do it being they are footing the Bill .
I think I can count on 1 hand how many bats I lost Bat Trapping over the years and I am one to think out of the Box I am not a follower or a copy cat I do common since Thinking when I trap . Here in MI we only have a couple way's to euthanize and I practice these , No Hammer's , Car Exhaust ,no water barrel's , flat shovels . ECT

So you mist netted bats that were roosting and euthanized them? Why in the world?!?!? Where were they roosting?

So dannel you are catching and euthanizing to stop night roosting on the exterior of buildings?

I understand single bat or the like when in home meeting certain conditions where DOH would require testing but while on one hand you are saying you've not lost any bats trapping the other hand your mentioning euthanizing?

Care to clarify why you are killing bats as a wildlife control company or bat excluder?

Justin

You also keep talking about client choice.

If I tell the client what I'm going to do and it is the best way they aren't going to ask for other methods they don't know about.

If a client says I want you to put a body grip trap in my front lawn to catch the raccoon but you also mention live traps as the better option for the scenario do you do what the laymen homeowner decides?

I do have a question. ( Although I'm supposed to know all the answers ) What bat species are we talking about? We have seven species in Wisconsin and although I've only seen four, there is really only one worth talking about. The large brown bat is our bat of choice. ( And no, if you put a young large brown next to an adult small brown, I couldn't tell the difference )

What I am saying is that if every bat removal company, killed every bat they came in contact with, would anyone know the difference? Of course not. But I'm talking about the large brown bat. They will make it come heck or high water.

Now what are the rest of you talking about?

Big Browns. Why kill a species that helps agriculture by consuming insects? They reproduce slowly....opposite of mice. Besides (in my best trapper imitation), why help the insect folks get rich?

Ah Dave, we don't kill bats and neither do any of our competitors that I know of. The question was what species of bats are people referring to.

I answered the question (above). Eptesicus fuscus

So bats get a free pass because they help eat insects? I don't do bat work and really want to know why people are so crazy about the bats.

Aaron,

It is a fair question. Here is my opinion or explanation.

Bats don't create their own hole in siding or exteriors, they are readily excluded, with porches or night roosts posing greater difficulty on getting them to leave.

I suppose I'd have to be honest and say every wildlife species gets a pass from me if exclusion or other methods are effective and resolve the issues a homeowner is calling me for.

The fact I love wildlife just makes me try harder to find those non lethal solutions.

I do love bats but I refer back to the first part for the straight answer, bats can be excluded and don't tear off the siding to make a new roost.

I hope that is a balanced common sense answer.

Good question because we all have opinions based on our life experience and backgrounds and business model.

Let me start by stating that I don't like ANY tool being excluded from my toolbox. On the other hand, I also think that there are certain tools that shouldn't be allowed. I'm of the belief that most operators feel this way and this makes us all hypocrites. We all know that it isn't the tool where the problem is, it is how the tool is used. We will always have those that use tools responsibly and will argue for their usage along with those that have seen abuse of the tools and will always argue for them to be excluded.

Specific to trapping bats, is the DWL more lethal than the Bat Trap and which of these (if any) is more lethal than a homemade trap? What about other methods of trapping bats such as glue boards, mist nest, harp traps, fly strips, fishing hooks, or hand netting?

Consider if there is a difference between using a bat trap with an open door allowing the bats to leave, using an "approved" exclusion device, or using some other type of device or material. Now compare these actions with companies that are using pesticides to kill bats (yes, this is not legal but it does happen), exclusions being performed right before the females give birth, exclusions performed with pups not being self-sufficient, and exclusions performed during winter where bats may leave the structure due to weather conditions but then cannot reenter?

Exclusions can be just as deadly to bats as any of the traps/tools I've listed here. Again, it isn't the tool where the problem is, it is how it is used.

With a few exceptions, birds get a "free pass" too!

You might ask youself, isn't a bat a mouse with wings? Nope....not in the least. On one hand, a mouse might live one year, are sexually mature at 4 weeks. A group of 6 mice may have 60 mice in 3 months. Their population grows expodentially. Mice contaminate our food.

On the other hand, you have a bat which is sexually mature in one year, has 1 pup, and may live for over 30 years. Some bats pollinate flowers...where others eat insects that diminish crop yields.

Imagine if deer were (like humans) and only had 2.3 kids per lifetime. Would you be able to hunt as many?

Good explanation. Thanks.

I too believe in limited regulation. However, I do not believe that behaviors will change. The issue is larger than this thread...and this industry needs to be leaders.

Mr. Expodentially, when you say birds "with a few exceptions" get a free pass too, I'm assuming the ones that don't get a free pass are ones that we are allowed to do without a permit. In our state that would be pigeons, starlings, and English sparrows and other members of the blackbird family if they're causing agricultural problems.

Those birds are flying rats, especially the pigeon.

P.S. Which one of my kids is .3?

Thank you for that reply.

Very true exclusions can and do cause harm.

However the operator not the tool is not going to work for me on this one.
Now we all know this is used on foothold traps and the like we all know are created and designed for furbearers.

However we are talking bats and bat exclusion done right with a standard set of rules and guidelines has the highest probability of a neutral outcome for the bat colony.

Energy spent looking for a new roost and potential exposure to predation, environmental conditions and a few others are the typical negatives.

The true problem with saying operator not the tool is you have no ability to stop the operator without regs.

Even then folks will do dirty things and sneak.

I'd rather the industry push out trap use but know that wont happen with politics.

So I'll go one state at a time and work to ban bat traps from use by wildlife or the pest control industry and to see those using glue boards fish hooks, guns, and other implements to harm bats prosecuted wherever possible.

I'm sick of this idea that absence of regulation is the best thing for our industry.

Absence of regs is why market hunting and over utilization of resources created the first game laws and the conservation movement.

Some of us need to fight for the industry and the resource,

Justin

Sorry about the spelling, Paul. My ipad does not have spell chek and i new dat it wuz rong but i gnlected to look er up and yup you got dat point exackly wright. I may not no how to spell it but i shore no what it meens had me a good mice prob dis wintr drove da wife crazy mice in ceiling tiles could here them running

I also don't understand the bird analogy nor the desired impact of posting the longevity records and birth rates for Myotis lucifugus. Why not also say that Eptesicus fuscus has an accepted life span of 8 - 10 years and has twins or that Lasiurus borealis commonly has quadruplets yet only has an accepted life span between 2 - 5 years? Also, I don't agree with the sexual maturity statement but if you've got some recent research on that you'd be willing to share as the last I saw was unsure with a potential of 9 -18 months I'd be grateful.

I’m not trying to be antagonistic and honestly feel that bat conservation is important, but if we are going to discuss it then let's discuss all portions of it operators may encounter and not just those of a single species.

To see change, we need to not only educate fellow operators about bat biology and behavior, but also show how their business can make more money by offering certain services and performing them in a manner that benefits the bats as well as the clients.

I do not believe that it is benificial to complicate the topic to this group. But, you are correct...there are multiple species data...and a lot we are still learning about bats. Speaking technical might make it seem that I am an expert, but communicating it in a manner that everyone can understand will ultimately make a better impact.

Dave, I love it when you talk Michiganese.

Thanks, I can speak both ways...just let me know which is preferred.

Regarding the bird analogy, let me clairify. A fellow was wondering why bats get a free pass. My reasction to the question was to put myself in his position and ask compared to what? What critter that he may deal with....also gets a free pass. Coons - nope. Skunks- nope. Birds - yup. All but the flying rats that Paul mentioned, are protected and we must not wack'em withthout a permit. So, birds is another example of a critter that we control that get's a free pass. Bats are not the sole critter that gets a free pass.

The longevity and birth rates is important to this conversation because differientiates bats from mice in regards to their ability to recover from population reductions. Mice survive because they can reproduce quicker than you can kill them. Longevity and birth rates seem to be connected in the world. Whales....humans....elephants reproduce slowely and live long lives. Mice....blue gill...squirrels...tend to have shorter life spans ans reproduce quickly. Despite your best effort to control mice....or blue gill in a pond...the buggers come back. Whales...elephants...can be hunted to extinction. Humans, are fortunate to be at the top of the food chain.

My exact details in the post might be off, but the points are still valid. I figure that it it is better to explain the relationships....people can look up the details for themselves....or apply it to the species that they encounter in their region.

Thanks for the clarification.

Well let's just whack the hive with a stick. I have been using the DWL bat trap for many many years. If the customer is in the city I will use the trap Not in all cases in the city. I am not in the habit to getting bat out of 1 house and then go back to the neighbors to get them out of that house. In the country I'll use excluder tubes. but in the city and when the house are close together it makes for better public relations when the customer talks to the neighbor I can tell them I'm removing the bats . I DO NOT guarantee that the bats will not come back but I will guarantee there not going to get in to the house I remove them from. Here in our area the customer like the idea of having more then one way of handling bat issues.

Dew...unless you are driving a distance greater than what the species is willing to travel to hibernate....the bats are flying back...then going in neighbors house. Same outcome....more gas...more stress to the animal.

Besides, where you operate you are dealing with mostly little browns. They hibernate in the mines/dams. Install bat houses as an alternative summer roost.

Which is why education, like Eric's "Bat School" is so important to this industry.

Dew, the hive response will be too the point and not emotional or irrational (at least to most).

After reading your comments above and addressing them knowing where you live and having lived within 30 miles of your location myself for 5 years of my existence I would point out the aspects of what you are saying in a slightly different way.

1) You use the trap in the city where house density (therefore potential roost density) is at its highest point, relative to the rural landscape.

2) You use the typical exclusion (one way valves/systems) techniques in the rural landscape where house density (therefore potential roost density) is at its lowest point, relative to the city/suburban landscape.

3) You say your clients "in our area" like to have options to deal with their bats.

So if we work with this set of assumptions and keep this simply based on these points alone, I want to ask you these questions for your review and answer.

The assumption that the bats will move from the home you exclude to the one immediately adjacent assumes the adjacent home offers the same or very similar siding, roofing, access, thermal values, etc... that bats have determined is suitable. In any given neighborhood that I recall from your region there could be 20 different homes within 60 feet of each other, with a variety of exteriors and ranging from a new house to 50+ years old.

You are anticipating that excluding this wildlife species (bats) means you must remove them from the area or you are responsible for any house within a certain range (5 feet, 10 feet 50 feet, 100 feet?) of the home you exclude.

Then when out in rural northern lower MI, an area I know well and love, you would exclude the bats with just one ways and assume that since the bats using a structure (home/building) are not going to go to the immediately adjacent farm even if 100 yards or 1/2 mile up the road as they have less available roosts to choose from.

I would have to assume you realize this is likely that they will only move over the hill, but that maybe the next farm wouldn't likely know you just evicted the colony from their rural neighbor?

So for you does this come down to believing you are actually relocating the colony for good (in a permanent way)?

Or is it the potential for the neighbor to blame you for the bats you just evicted showing up at their unsealed house?

How many excluders or control folks have done work in a neighborhood where multiple homes have bats all at the same time and you can see the signs?

As Dave mentioned with regional migration in your species, why would you assume they aren't flying back before you get home?

I'm sure you only go 20-50 miles max, so how would you assume that your judgement is going to keep these animals which fly up to 300 miles from home to hibernate at this new drop location? Every year they home back to the roost from the hibernation site, so how does this make any actual logical sense to relocate them or make people believe you are relocating them or reducing risk for their neighbors?

Even the slowest flying bats in North America would make this trip in less than 2 hours from your typical drop site.

So I guess while I know your answer it doesn't seem to make sense, and while you may say, "it makes sense to me and my clients and thats all that matters." I'd have to respectfully disagree on this particular topic and technique.

"I DO NOT guarantee that the bats will not come back but I will guarantee there not going to get in to the house I remove them from."

This last statement shows that there is no merit to moving them, so why put them through it and risk the bats lives if you can exclude it, provide your warranty to the client, be paid for professional bat exclusion, and move on?

Justin

The only logical answer, with Dew's argument, is that they euthanize the trapped bats. Otherwise, the process does not make a whole lot of sense.

HD Wildlife

I have a control operator in my area that classifies him self as a bat professional. His way is to show up in the middle of the night and seal up the house when all the bats are out for the night. He also uses excluber tubes. Then I get a call the next year stating the job was not done wright. As I'm doing the work on there house to fix the bad work or unfinished work I'll have the neighbor come over and tell me horror storeys about the same guy.

When I tell them that I can use traps the customer like that idea better, because they can see the bats being removed. Even thought I tell them that there is a chance that the bats may come back but not get in the house.

IN the last 10 years I have only had 2 call backs.

The fist one was in the city I did use both methods excluder tubes and traps. I did the seal up were needed as the home owner had done some on his own.I gave him a guarantee that the bats would not get back in. But I would not guarantee work done by another contractor. ON this house the home owner needed the soffits cleaned out and/or replaced when the other contractor did this they broke the seal at the roof line and did not reseal it. I removed over 300 bats in 12 hours the first time the next spring I got the call back the other contractor went good for the second go around.

The second call back was in the country I sealed up the house used excluder tubes only at the ridge vent. The house was 80 acres away from the pole barn with a shingled roof this spring the customer called up and had me come out and do the same thing to the pole barn. All the bats that I excluded from the house just went to the metal barn and gained entry threw the ridge vent's.


In the state of Michigan we can use them. If your in Michigan and do not like the idea then don't use the methed. But don't slam the guy that are. I use them not only for the coustamer but for my self I can get a better count of how many there are in the house, and for the wildlife report we have to fill out.

The only bats that I euthanize are the one were the home owner tells me that the bat got in the living quarters and landed on them in the night or if it was in a child's room. At this time there is a single bat not a colony.

Dew,

I'm slamming the tool, not the operator, though some may see it as both. The examples you used state that since the customer had a bad go round with a non professional doing not such a good job of sealing, is why the folks decided to use the trapping method you taught them about and of course it sounded better because you tell them it is a greater chance at least that they will find another spot.

The barn/house in rural landscape tells me that the discussion on the first trip didn't include telling them, if I exclude the house, they may just move to your barn. Same thing when I do pigeon work, if I do this part of your industrial complex they can still show up over there on that other area.

Folks understand this going in and decide whether to do the proper exclusion on all areas or just one for now and see what happens.

Same thing in sets of condos I have where bats are in one building of a series of 3 with 10 units per building. The folks know they are likely to move down, but some prefer the wait and see method then doing the entire complex at once, or due to finances can't do it all at once.

You still can't state that trapping has any benefit. If the MDNR wants a count of the bats provided by bat trapping I bet a few eyes reading this that you may not realize will soon be putting some stress on that system.

Any ethical non game or specific bat biologist should not and would not want you catching bats just to count them for them. I've met dozens of them from every state in the country in the last few years and can tell you that they are concerned with just how exclusion is performed with one ways, imagine if they knew guys are grabbing up hundreds at once and driving off in their pickup to parts unknown?

FACT: Trapping bats has no effect on the quality of exclusion/seal up work that is done at the same time.

Can anyone argue that point? Does the bat trap of any type DWL or otherwise exclude and seal the house for you too?

NO It Does not, you do that and if you aren't good at it, there will be re-entry, even if you are, there may be re-entry due to building
shifts, other issues, wildlife like woodpeckers and raccoons and squirrels making new entry points.

But please don't state that in order to be an effective excluder you must trap bats. This is factually inaccurate.

FACT: You are trapping bats because currently it is legally allowed.

MYTH: You are using the bat trap because it provides a better exclusion for the owner of the property (client).

Just to be clear, nothing you've said today is different than what you said in past "bat trap" debates, and nothing you said
makes this any less obvious to me as something that needs to get in front of the right audience. If the industry wants to
do bat work with proven methods this one needs to go and if you think otherwise perhaps in the next couple of legislative sessions
we will see just where the community responsible for bat management and conservation comes down on this issue.

Justin

what you are saying then we as control operator should not use any type of live trap at all. explain to me the difference using a live trap for bats and using a live trap for skunks, raccoons, or any other critter we handle. When ever you use a trap for any thing you are causing undo stress on the animal.

I'd ask you to back up a few pages and look at the discussion of this point, but I'll restate quickly for the record what I already stated earlier on.

We as an industry fight for rights to keep live traps, foothold traps, body grips, etc... as necessary tools, in case you didn't see that important phrasing I'll clarify.

Necessary. Meaning we can't do many of the things we do without these tools as the animals we work with often require capture, are nocturnal and whether folks are removing them lethally or otherwise based on their various state laws, these devices are used.

So now again in summary bats.

FACT: Bats don't create their own holes and voids in exteriors of buildings (wood, brick, stucco, etc...).

FACT: Bats capitalize on other species that create holes in houses and structures, or natural freeze thaw and building deterioration to open new roosts for them.

FACT: Due to facts 1 & 2 we need only exclude bats and seal the building properly to resolve the issue of bat colony roosting in a home or structure.

FACT: Proven effective methods for one way exclusion like you employ, like Dannel employs and the rest of the bat exclusion community employ are not only effective, but accepted by all including bat biologists, conservationists and so forth.

FACT: If you discuss why exclusion and one way with your clients and never bring up trapping, most will have never heard of the idea of that, and if they have, you simply and I mean simply, state, the proven effective way of dealing with bats that is the most utilized and accepted is one way systems (no matter which one way you use).

If I can help it I exclude anything I deal with rather than trap it, but I have traps and use them where appropriate and necessary as any professional would. I don't have or need a bat trap and neither do the bulk of the bat excluders out there, so why then is it used?

"Because I can," "Because I want to," "Because I like it."

How about if I liked setting 330's in the front yard of a clients home on main street or adjacent to a sidewalk, and in my state it was legal? Would that be a good idea?

Radical idea, right? Doesn't relate in your mind does it? But it does, because it is just as wrong to be catching hundreds of bats in a tiny box and claiming it is necessary or a benefit to the program you are operating.

So be truthful and admit it is not necessary and it is simply because you like it, not because there is a NEED to have it in your tool box as some would want us to believe.

Folks can bend this anyway they'd like I won't change my opinion no matter how many ways I may be thought to be some nut, I'm far from it, own every trapping device you can think of, have a collection of antique traps and my garage is full of old gear I rarely use anymore.

This device isn't on par with the devices you need for the other wildlife because those other wildlife can make and tear their own holes in structures, simple as that.

Justin

OK then if common sense was common every one would have it.

Fact: It's legally allowed in the state of michigan to use bat traps.

Fact: Given the chose between traps and tubes most customers would chose traps they want the bats gone.

Fact: I never said it's a necessary tool or because I can ,because I want to, or because I like it.

Fact : If every one were as knowledgeable as your self the would be no need for us control op's.

Fact : It's MY job to do the task at hand as far as bats to remove them from the dwelling.

fact : Your not going to convince me that it's not a effective method of control work that as of now I can use.

To me your the type of guy that would not allow the collorem for K9 control because the foothold works just fine.

Justin, I just feel the need to point out that there are unigue circumstances. Our one and ( As far as I know ) only bat trapping experience was out of the ordinary. The wealthy individual whose house had bats, took our bid, but then asked if there was a trap where he could actually see the culprits.

He paid for the trap and seemed delighted that we were smart enough to catch them. He had no objections to our letting them go because we replaced the trap with bat valves. Everyone concerned was happy with the outcome. ( Well, except the bats, They had to find a new home )

Paul, let me get back to you.

Dew, I own collarum can use and do use, so you are misguided as I expected, the response would be I'm of course a nut because I think that the bat trap is unnecessary.

The fact is to make it a banned or illegal device won't be done on this forum, much to the chagrin of so many, these forums are simply a place to air out issues, the real change happens in a legal environment or not at all.

However, as I said long ago in this post, this is about the resource and doing bat exclusion with typical methods without the trap requires no capture of entire colonies and therefore puts as little stress on the bats as possible, a bonus not only for the bats but for the image of our industry and what we do as operators.

I am working outside this forum on this issue, so I don't have any real concern for what is stated here, but can tell you there are thousands of folks interested in this thread and what is happening with "bat traps" being used for wildlife control with little or no oversight. These thousands are backed by thousands more and most occupy seats that do make the decisions on these types of issues.

So while I may engage in these debates with you and others like Dannel, ultimately I have no thoughts whatsoever that this is where the rubber meets the road.

May take a bit of time, year or two or three even, but remind me to have this conversation about what is legal and what is not related to the bat trap a few years from now at most.

Paul,

Your example though shows though that this was motivated by the client, not what you might have steered them toward that still would have worked.

So in the end while I get that you used it, client was happy.

You could have done it the other way, still had a happy client and used the other widely used methods that you use every day.

I think you are going toward Eric's point of it is in the toolbox and why not keep it there for certain situations.

I just don't think we need to apply that to this device or similar devices for bat capture when exclusion is what is being done and the device doesn't make the seal up or exclusion perform better, unless the operator is killing the bats he catches as was mentioned a few posts ago.

I don't let clients make choices that aren't aesthetic or related to an opinion being good enough, I am the professional as are you and the others on this thread, so why do we allow them to make that decision just because it might sound better to them in their minds?

They simply aren't the people with experience, so lets not enable the customer to tell us anymore than a mechanic would allow someone to tell them to replace with the wrong part, or an electrician would say, heres what I think, now you tell me what you feel is wrong with this circuit breaker?

Justin

Well if I told you that setting up that bat trap was faster or easier, I would be lying.

Thankfully, tubes are cheaper than buying a trap. There is no point to bat traps....you just need to take a little more time explaining the process to the customer. I have absolutely no need for bat traps. None.

Wow, I bet old Dannel is sure happy he posted this thread.

Unfortunately Justin, you have just probably shut down more conversation here than you will ever care to admit.

Who in their right mind would continue to post with an anti like you here?

Where do you get off with your high and mighty BS? I noticed it first on the relocation threads but you have certainly shown your true colors now.

If it was up to me you'd be banned.

Sgs,

If Ron and Paul or other admin feel I'm infringing on someone's rights they can pass that judgement and I've seen it done

Apparently you believe I should be banned because my opinions are based in my own experiences education and interest in the industry as a whole. Many folks likely agree with you, many others agree with me.

That is life and forums are just a water cooler to put your views and opinions out in the world.

If folks don't like my thoughts they need only skip reading them. I can't force you to read or take my opinion but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to share my opinion on this, translocation or any other subject.

I suppose you and a few others would prefer everyone to swim in the same general direction and not cause any major change even if it is needed in some areas?

I have been a member of this forum and trap talk since 2001, have learned, agreed, disagreed and I'm still here.

Maybe if I was raised different I could just drop these issues or shrug them off but I wasn't and therefore I stand for what I believe is right.

Period.

By the way calling me an anti is laughable.

Apparently anyone who considers animal welfare or control method based on humane nature of it is an anti.

Better start banning the guys using shade covers on their live traps or extra swivels in their chains too huh?

I respect wildlife as a general rule, respect the resource we are ENTITLED to assist in managing and the skills and knowledge it takes to resolve wildlife human conflicts lethally or non lethally.

I stand by Justin on this matter. If only I could get banned for agreeing...oh man...so much more time for sailing with Krier. T-Man is a habit that I could use help breaking. Help me, please!

Absolutely not.

I think you should be banned because you are an anti-trapper and are using your government connections to ban what is now legal trapping.