No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers ***NO POLITICS
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting~The Pen and Quill

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum~ Fermenter's Forum


~~~ Dobbins' Products Catalog ~~~


Minnesota Trapline Products
Please support our sponsor for the Trappers Talk Page - Minnesota Trapline Products


Joe Goodman Prints
Please support Joe Goodman because he supports us with donations

Print Thread
Hop To
Page 10 of 62 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 61 62
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563734
06/27/16 09:04 AM
06/27/16 09:04 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 11,019
MN
S
Steven 49er Offline
trapper
Steven 49er  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 11,019
MN
Increase harvest.


"Gold is money, everything else is just credit" JP Morgan
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Steven 49er] #5563753
06/27/16 09:31 AM
06/27/16 09:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Originally Posted By: Steven 49er
Increase harvest.


Screw the science and let the market decide? White and Boco are telling me the science says stop/slow harvest. What are we missing?

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Boco] #5563759
06/27/16 09:35 AM
06/27/16 09:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Originally Posted By: Boco
Otters cover a large area more than several traplines for sure.Otter numbers rise with the increase in beaver,so,look after your beaver and you will never have to worry about otter.


Science or sentiment? We were in the middle of a widespread beaver reduction effort.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563765
06/27/16 09:38 AM
06/27/16 09:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
Otters use abandoned beaver houses for natal dens. They also use beaver for food. Beaver dams create more habitat for fish and thus, otter. I agree with Boco.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563800
06/27/16 10:19 AM
06/27/16 10:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Oh no...not only were we reducing the beaver population across thousands of acres, we were also taking out the damns and making rivers free flowing. Pull back the harvest even more?


Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...it's about learning to dance in the rain!
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Steven 49er] #5563807
06/27/16 10:39 AM
06/27/16 10:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,999
East-Central Wisconsin
B
bblwi Offline
trapper
bblwi  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,999
East-Central Wisconsin
Maybe one of the reasons we are unable to resolve issues is our inability to focus on the issue for the necessary time it may take. Our attention span is very short and maybe we all have Attention deficit issues. Within two weeks a wolf post damning the wolf on the landscape becomes other species issues and short comings. Remember as short as 5 years ago there was no desire to have anecdotal reports regarding deer or any species and then it abruptly changed to publically asking for those reports and coincidentally that happened at about the same time that research and science were being bashed as poor and not credible. If we want to use political and social information why not just say that we don't support the science and live even more with the consequences of political input? If we don't publically fund game management research then just maybe the research that gets funded is that promoted by those organizations that want to promote less harvest and or maybe none and for many species.


Bryce

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: white17] #5563864
06/27/16 12:13 PM
06/27/16 12:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Originally Posted By: white17
Are they ? 70% seems very low. Most literature that I have read but pregnancy rates at 99% based on harvest necropsies.


I know otters tend to be density dependent. They can grow fast at low levels, then even out and don’t really grow past a carrying capacity.

Interestingly enough, since we decrease our harvest, our pregnancy rats have come back down. Back down to 70% adult and 30% juvenile, but our YOY are still only account for 35% of total harvest.

Now over the last few years we have reversed coarse and started to increase harvest. Wonder if they continued that trend this year and I wonder how the two otter resolution did? Both should have been discussed at the last Furbearer Advisory meeting this past month. Anyone hear?

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563887
06/27/16 12:33 PM
06/27/16 12:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 47,350
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Online content
trapper
Boco  Online Content
trapper
B

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 47,350
james bay frontierOnt.
Probably small otters are being turfed by trappers if they only have a quota of 2.
Not allowing trappers to keep and sell incidentals leads to bad science,if the powers that be are using harvests to get statistics.

Last edited by Boco; 06/27/16 12:35 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: WIMarshRAT] #5563891
06/27/16 12:35 PM
06/27/16 12:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: WIMarshRAT
Originally Posted By: white17
Are they ? 70% seems very low. Most literature that I have read but pregnancy rates at 99% based on harvest necropsies.




Interestingly enough, since we decrease our harvest, our pregnancy rats have come back down. Back down to 70% adult and 30% juvenile, but our YOY are still only account for 35% of total harvest.




Wait a minute. You are talking about pregnancy rates in the first sentence. The second sentence implies that 70% of adults and 30 % of juveniles are pregnant. I don't think that's what you mean.

If otter are like marten populations, 35% of the harvest being YOY is not a good sign.

Were talking about a species here that uses delayed implantation, and is very likely an induced ovulator. The same as marten. There are so many variables to the population dynamics that is just isn't possible to come up with an easy, straight forward solution.

Bryce is exactly right IMO. Need to make a decision about science v. ballot box biology. There really isn't a choice between the two as far as I'm concerned.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: white17] #5563901
06/27/16 12:43 PM
06/27/16 12:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Originally Posted By: white17

If otter are like marten populations, 35% of the harvest being YOY is not a good sign.

Were talking about a species here that uses delayed implantation, and is very likely an induced ovulator. The same as marten. There are so many variables to the population dynamics that is just isn't possible to come up with an easy, straight forward solution.



I guess I should have used yearling(1.5 years) instead of juvenile. Wasn't trying to imply our YOY were pregnant. Here is the data from our harvest.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/reports/otterpop2.pdf

35% YOY harvest tells you something is wrong. How do you know if you need to increase or decrease harvest?

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Boco] #5563907
06/27/16 12:51 PM
06/27/16 12:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Originally Posted By: Boco
Probably small otters are being turfed by trappers if they only have a quota of 2.
Not allowing trappers to keep and sell incidentals leads to bad science,if the powers that be are using harvests to get statistics.


Boco, not sure where the numbers are this year, but it was something like one out of 3 trappers received "A" tag on any given year. There was an effort to increase that to every trapper getting two tags. It failed the first time to get past the DNR Furbearer Advisory Committee.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: WIMarshRAT] #5563927
06/27/16 01:13 PM
06/27/16 01:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: WIMarshRAT


I guess I should have used yearling(1.5 years) instead of juvenile. Wasn't trying to imply our YOY were pregnant. Here is the data from our harvest.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/reports/otterpop2.pdf

35% YOY harvest tells you something is wrong. How do you know if you need to increase or decrease harvest?



You haven't said what the adult female harvest is relative to the YOY harvest. That, IMO, is what you need to know to make an informed decision. Maybe it is in your link above. I haven't looked at that yet.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563962
06/27/16 02:01 PM
06/27/16 02:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Quick math says we were harvesting .27 adult females for each YOY and that increased to .37 adult females for each YOY.


Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...it's about learning to dance in the rain!
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563965
06/27/16 02:03 PM
06/27/16 02:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
So that would be about 3 YOY per adult female ?


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563971
06/27/16 02:13 PM
06/27/16 02:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
Yes. Pretty close. Dropped from 3.6 YOY per adult to 2.6 YOY per adult. Just a rounding error?


Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...it's about learning to dance in the rain!
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5563980
06/27/16 02:23 PM
06/27/16 02:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
That looks like more than a rounding error.

Nevertheless, in Marten we want to see 4 YOY per adult female ideally. 3 YOY per adult female seems to be about the best I have been able to manage over the last 36 years on the same line. I would stop trapping them if it dropped below 3. In fact I have stopped trapping them because they have completely disappeared.

The YOY kept declining and then there were none. No adults either.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5564078
06/27/16 04:12 PM
06/27/16 04:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,748
McGrath, AK
This is an interesting paragraph to me.

From the report above.

Age structure and reproductive rates

"Carcasses were obtained from 1,079 otters (646 males, 416 females, 17 unknown) harvested
during the 2012-13 season and age at harvest was estimated for 642 males and 414 females.
Age data has been obtained from 3,505 male and 2,491 female otters harvested since 1979
(Tables 1 and 2). Age distributions were similar between sexes. The age structure in the harvest
has changed over the 7 collection periods for both sexes. The proportion of juveniles was lower and the proportion of yearlings or 2.5 year old otters was higher in the 4 most recent collections than in the 3 prior collections."

This would say to me that production of pups is falling and the reason they are finding higher proportions of yearlings and 2.5 year olds is because those were the YOY over the past three years while production dropped.

I would expect to see a decline in the proportion of yearlings and 2.5 year olds also if the YOY decline continues.

Also, I don't understand the language where they say ...."yearlings OR 2.5 year old otters..". Do they consider a 2.5 year old otter to be a yearling or am I misreading that line ?


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5564501
06/27/16 09:11 PM
06/27/16 09:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
trapper
WIMarshRAT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
They just worded that goofy based on the chart imo. Remember, we get age and reproductive rates every the years but it is listed in the chart.

Maybe we need to add another variable. Personal observation. Did certain areas dry up, or did you still see just as much sign as your ratio changed on marten?

Or did you hit on the main piece? The increase in yearlings? Shouldn't this of fell next instead of increasing?




Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5564524
06/27/16 09:23 PM
06/27/16 09:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 757
WI
*
*AceTrapper* Offline
trapper
*AceTrapper*  Offline
trapper
*

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 757
WI
Isn't the title of this post "WI Wolves"? Seems it's getting a little of track. Not that what y'all are discussing is a bad thing mind you, went from wolves to otter to marten.

Carry on Wolfers.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5564528
06/27/16 09:26 PM
06/27/16 09:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,133
WI
N
nimzy Offline
trapper
nimzy  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,133
WI
Personal observation ??

Page 10 of 62 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 61 62
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread