Don't stop with your infinite wisdom now Jack. Once we have ya on here would hate to lose ya for a period of time.

Seems to me there must be something we are not aware of that triggers the dominance display.....if that's what it is....because I have more often seen wolf scat deposited in the trail, with NO scratch marks....than I have WITH scratch marks....in the snow.

is there a difference ?

Although I don't have wolf experience, I've noticed coyotes seem to scratch at territorial borders. Hey Jack what's your opinion on this here subject.

White 17, et al. ...

In my opinion (again, no science here), the dominance display in wolves is only done by the dominant pair. That's why the moon walk display (scratching back) is only seen sporadically. There are some wolves in a pack that will never be dominant, and I suspect they would never do the moon walk. If there are 8 or 10 or 20 wolves in a pack, only the alpha male and female will display the scratching at a scent post.

Several years ago, I caught and collared an 8-year-old female. She was a member of a pack, and had never bred. She stayed with the pack, and did not breed in subsequent years. In my opinion, she was a sub-dominant wolf, and remained as a "helper" in the pack. I think this is actually quite common. Some wolves are genetically programmed to be submissive, and will take that roll throughout life. Others, of course, are "destined" to be leaders, and will leave their natal pack and either start a new pack in some distant place, or will eventually challenge their mother/father for the dominant (alpha) position. Others (probably the majority), are the proverbial "Chester Milquetoast" type that are relegated a lesser role throughout life.

I do agree, too, that the scratching display is probably more likely to be seen at or near the boundaries of a territory, simply because you might have 2 packs, with the potential for four animals to be alpha's.

This help?

Thanks Jack....but wait...So with your thought process of each pack having a DOMINANT PAIR and the existence of territories possibly overlapping....would a non(sub)- dominant wolf (canine) possibly mark over DOMINANT PACK MEMBER from another pack? AND if that is so... does this really make a big difference when setting up scratch backs or pee posts??

Another thought....when does an ALPHA breakout and become an ALPHA? I mean when they are born they certainly are not an ALPHA....what age is a wild canine thought to be mature/large/strong enough to be ready?

Dave Mech is the guy who coined the term "alpha". He now says that he regrets doing so because it really isn't accurate. It implies abilities or traits that may be transient. The better term is "breeding pair". Clearly, even the dominant individuals in a pack will not always remain so. The breeding pair will change with age, disability, mortality, and perhaps even availability of food.

Thanks Jack for your knowledge, great info from a man with vast experience. Lots of value in that. That goes for all the trappers on this thread!

ttt

Hey White where did Jack go??

He's probably killing wolves, lions or zombies...after they kicked back of course...lol

MChewk, and others. Yes on question No. 1. What I've seen many times is several members of the resident pack, when they encounter an advertisement in their territory, will indeed mark "over" the scent of the interloper. However, I don't believe the sub-dominants (the beta's, gamma's, etc.) will display the kick-back response. Generally, only the dominant pair does this. Further, in my opinion, it does not make one iota of difference in setting up the pee-post set. I generally try to avoid catching pups first (that are sub-dominants for a minimum of 2.5 years), but any of the adults that I can get to step in the right place, I'm usually all smiles. This avoidance of pups is done simply by managing my pan pressure, not by trap placement nor by type of set.

Your second question (and again, I apologize for my rambling on here) is a great one. Again, in my opinion (almost 15% of the time, I'm right every time ;)) wolves (and coyotes and domestic dogs) are indeed born with the genetic make-up to be leaders or to be followers. Let me expound... Back in the mid-70s, I was denning coyote pups for experimental use at the Dubois Idaho Sheep Experiment station. I wanted to raise a coyote pup, so kept 2 different males from 2 different litters that were not quite yet with their eyes open. As they aged, it was apparent that they were going to be very dominant, and were thus pretty much incorrigible. On my third try, another male from a third litter, I got a great one, and he taught me a tremendous amount about coyote behavior and about trapping his brethren over the next 2 years. Later, I had occasion to go into several wolf natal dens, and it too was apparent that there were aggressive (I assumed dominant) ones and there were always the proverbial wimps. In wolves, at least, their propensity to become a breeder (or alpha) is stifled by the parents until they are 1.5 to 3.5 years of age. Then (certainly not a conscious decision) they usually disperse and either join an existing pack or start their own pack. If their father or mother (the alpha pair of their natal pack) is removed, aged, or disabled, they may even assume dominance in their own pack. There appears, however, to be a "social taboo" in breeding with their own close kin. Thus, the impetus for dispersal is strong, with males usually dispersing greater distances than their sisters. I suspect this too, is a system developed over eons (again, I can't buy into the thought that it is a conscious decision) to prevent, or at least reduce, inbreeding.

I'm on the road these days, and only periodically get access to a computer and internet. I apologize for the delay in getting back to these questions.

Jack

Good to hear from you. As always, you give us a lot to digest.

This drivel may or may not contribute to the general knowledge of canid behavior. I am age 75 and have had dogs all my adult life, about half the time a pair and half time a single. I have never had a strong scratch dancer although several periodically did the dance. I currently have an 80 year old sister in law who moved north and she and her sister(my wife) are setting up an apartment for her while I dog sit her 10+ year old cocker who is STONE BLIND and nearly completely deaf. This dog scratches VERY vigorously with all 4 feet every time she defecates and sometimes when she urinates even though there are no other dog markings anywhere about. Because she has lost several of her senses she may be using those remaining more strongly or perhaps this behavior just reflects her personality. Overall she is quite tentative, I suspect due to the blindness. A final observation, while on her leash, she trots about following the graveled road and onto the mowed grass. When she encounters taller(less than knee high) unmowed grass she immediately veers back onto the road or mowed grass.

Thanks, I'm gonna ponder all this. I'm sure I'll have more questions. Be safe

Ya have to let em display dominance before a well placed shot

So.......Jim. I am wondering if you still have other dogs within the household or if the blind cocker is the only one ??? ( do any of you other musically oriented folks think of Joe Cocker and Blind Lemon Jefferson in this post :)))) )

what I wonder is .....perhaps the blind cocker is still smelling the previous dogs AND/OR is the cocker just displaying dominant behavior as a preventative against aggression from real dominant dogs that it can't see but can smell ????

Cohunt...

To me, not drivel at all. It gets my interest up yet again.

It would be very interesting to me for you to ask your sister-in-law if the old Cocker has always been a moon-walker. As I said earlier, I think the moon walk is a dominance display, and I suspect, regardless of infirmities, said Cocker has always been (in adulthood) a moon-walker. Most people don't pay close attention to dog-speak, but the back-scratching should be something that has been noticed.

Looking forward to your report back to us all...

I asked her that question and she said that as she recalled the dog did not scratch when young and sighted. The practice developed as she aged(and presumably lost several of her senses) but has only been very dramatic for the last several years. I do not think there is any scent remaining from previous dogs marking. We have not had a dog for about 15 months and that dog did not generally visit the area where this old cocker has been marking.

This image back in the early 1990's for Bob Noonan's magazine, was the start of my breakthrough from the industry of "approved art" in the upper middle class market, who disapproved of reality in predators -hunting-posturing-killing-stalking- chasing- to total freedom of natural expression in real life and the trapping/hunting magazines I so love to work for now.

It was my arrival, arising in flight out of the fire in freedom of true expression in animal behavior of the natural world.

There is not the money in popularity to be made on this winter trail in the snow....but the satisfaction of reality expressed more than makes up for me, any "approved art expression " of animal behavior warped by the uneducated and inexperienced fancy, backed by art merchants who only sponsor "approved images" that they see will make their industry the most money in prints.

I have followed this thread in interest and happiness as an artist who also has the biologist residing inside, to observe and display behaviors correctly to the editors and clients I work for.

Several decades have passed from this coyote marking his log to now for me.

But I will never forget the exuberant freedom I felt when my good friend Bob Noonan -my editor of Animal Damage Control Magazine -as it was called in the beginning- then to be named Wildlife Control Technology magazine -invited me to shatter the glass ceiling of my world to portray such real and at the same time-such fun and rebellious realism of what canines really do in their language of everyday life.

Despite the frowning disapproval of my would be sponsors in the art publishing world.


Lean freedom is so much desired better than fat slavery...

Thank you, Jack....and Ken....and all others who help to educate me in portraying the real natural world in accuracy and truth.