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#6120662 - 01/10/18 04:30 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
Dirt Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/10
Posts: 3463
Loc: Armpit, ak
Calves are the weak, but not too filling.
_________________________
Who is John Galt?

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#6120668 - 01/10/18 04:35 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Caribou]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 1045
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Caribou
When theres a lot of food, packs will converge, when foods scarce, they compete. Wolves will eat each other.

One oldtimer I know says Wolves never die of old age, they are killed by Men or Wolves.

Come to think of it, only Humans die in bed while nearly everything is eaten while quite alive yet.....


A significant portion die in accidents too, rivers, avalanche etc.
I've cleaned a good # of wolf skulls and a fair percentage had holes in the top of their skulls, presumably from moose hoof. The ones I cleaned survived the head bonking, however, since if you look at the anatomy of a wolf skull their brain sits way back and below those big muscles on the top of the head so a hole on the top of the head more or less between the eyes caves in a portion of the sinus. No doubt they got knocked silly, just not fatal.

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#6120674 - 01/10/18 04:41 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
JakeDog Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 2972
Loc: Morehead city NC
Think it is cool the injuries most any predator takes and survives but then think they are trying to take down a large prey animal with their teeth! Think prehistoric folks skeletons that have been found have also shown such injuries and probably from hunting large animals with whatever weapons they had to use.

Cool info y'all just reading some of you crowd that been around wolves and deal with them a bit.

keep posting! good reads here at the fire house until the tones drop anyhow ----

J


Edited by JakeDog (01/10/18 04:42 PM)
_________________________
Suppression rules/prevention drools

Confidence is going fly fishing for Moby Dick, in a row boat, and bringing tartar sauce with you.

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#6120688 - 01/10/18 04:48 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
drasselt Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 1045
Loc: Alaska
Not a great photo but this is interior Alaska and part of a 31 wolf pack.



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#6120704 - 01/10/18 04:58 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: JakeDog]
Osky Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/09/13
Posts: 5243
Loc: Northern MN
Originally Posted By: JakeDog
Think it is cool the injuries most any predator takes and survives but then think they are trying to take down a large prey animal with their teeth! Think prehistoric folks skeletons that have been found have also shown such injuries and probably from hunting large animals with whatever weapons they had to use.

Cool info y'all just reading some of you crowd that been around wolves and deal with them a bit.

keep posting! good reads here at the fire house until the tones drop anyhow ----

J



Pay no mind to those pre-historic folks skeletons, just get the first hand info from White17.

Osky
_________________________
"A womans heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth, and I can find no sign on it"

www.SureDockusa.com

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#6120720 - 01/10/18 05:12 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Osky]
Dirt Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/10
Posts: 3463
Loc: Armpit, ak
Originally Posted By: Osky
Originally Posted By: Dirt
Speaking of B.S. Can anybody interpret this?

"The ministry takes an adaptive management approach and is actively assessing management actions including the potential need for and feasibility of wildlife community management methods."


Considering myself a fine specimen of a man, I took your challenge. After reading this multiple times and even front to back I have surrendered. Huh?....

Pack size was mentioned, tracks can be deceiving. Actual eyes on, usually crossing the ice out front here 9 was about the max. Last I saw this pack a few months ago here they are at 7. I know of none bigger only because in this bush its seldom you see whole packs together and a few wolves can leave a lot of tracks. You wilderness guys can get more precise with your type of country and aircraft use.
I have spent a significant amount of time flying over northwest Ontario northern remote and I cannot ever recall seeing more than 10 strung out and that I think I'd be stretching it. Even in large caribou killing fields on ice of which I have seen a couple there were no more than that.

Osky


Unfortunately, 20 years of dealing with bio-politicians I think I understand this. IMO this is a fancy way of saying we will study this and do nothing. If you are lucky, they won't waste taxpayers money studying it before they do nothing.
_________________________
Who is John Galt?

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#6120756 - 01/10/18 05:48 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 5568
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin


First for the year here , will be many more as the year goes on , we're only halfway through January.
It didn't state all the facts but I'm guessing bobcat hunters .



From the DNR site .

_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

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#6120760 - 01/10/18 05:53 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: drasselt]
Chancey Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/21/14
Posts: 736
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: drasselt
Not a great photo but this is interior Alaska and part of a 31 wolf pack.





Mercy! I had no idea that wolf packs would converge and are able to reach numbers that high. Very interesting information you guys are sharing. Thanks.
Out of ignorance/curiosity, how many elk/caribou/moose size animals do the wolves need to kill a week in order to adequately sustain a pack of that size?

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#6120770 - 01/10/18 06:00 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 5568
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin
As of Jan 7 , Montana has take 121 wolves by hunting and 38 by trapping this season , Rock On !
Wisconsin needs our season back !

Keep up the good work !


_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

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#6120814 - 01/10/18 06:42 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 5568
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin

A few stats for Wisconsin.





This one is not quite up to date yet, population is higher now .
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#6120858 - 01/10/18 07:10 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
Gulo Online   content
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 377
Loc: Idaho
Okay Trappers! Sorry I've not piped up sooner on this thread; been out in the shed putting up fur most of the day. I've not worked directly with wolves or caribou in the Selkirks (Idaho, Washington, Montana) or in Minnesota. But, for what its worth, here's my take. Sorry for the long-winded opinions.

Woodland caribou in the Intermountain West and in Minnesota once occupied a bit bigger range in the contiguous US and Canada (ME, NH, VT, MI, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island). It is thought that, indeed, the smaller range they now exist in was due to logging of climax forests, with the subsequent movement of white-tailed deer northward. I don't remember reading anything about deer competing with woodland caribou, but rather, they carry the meningeal worm, which is death for caribou. The loss of habitat and the parasites were thought to lead to the restricted range.

That said, can wolves wipe out the remainders? Theoretically, I have no doubt that they can. But will they? In my opinion, probably not.

Among many predator/prey situations that I've observed first-hand, I will use the wolf/moose situation that I was trying to manage for ADFG in the 80s and 90s as an example. It was in White17s back yard; western interior Alaska. Simply put, moose numbers went from being one of the finest populations in the world to almost-nonexistent over about a 6-year period. Was this due to wolf predation? I think not.

Two of the hardest winters on record (deep, deep snow and c-c-cold) occurred, and started the dramatic decline. I remember one short flight in January only about 15 miles from my home and I counted 31 winter-killed moose. The wolves, obviously, were having a hay-day. Fast-forward a year or so. Now the moose population was pretty depleted. For the next several years, wolf numbers also declined precipitously, but, again as White17 noted above, there was some relief for them in alternate prey (a few caribou, metric boatloads of beaver, a small bison herd, and in the foothills, pretty fair Dall sheep numbers). The wolf numbers declined dramatically, but there were enough of them to keep the pressure on the moose. This is referred to by many as a "predator pit". I should point out that many "biologists" don't buy off on the concept of the predator-pit. Personally, I have no doubt that it can, and does, occur. That is, there is enough alternate prey to sustain a few wolves, but they still prefer their primary prey (moose), and can keep those moose numbers at extremely low density for many years. They don't wipe 'em out, they just keep the prey populations low. Too, I believe that with active management (that is, controlling wolves), prey populations can bounce back in a more reasonable amount of time. With active management, the recovery of prey populations might take a decade or more, but can be effected much sooner than letting "the balance of nature" work its way through the ecosystem in 3-4 decades. With that "management", both the prey population (moose in this case) and the predator population (wolf numbers) can bounce back much quicker. With more moose around, the moose populations would be smiling, the human hunters would be smiling, and (viola!) the wolf numbers would quickly rebound (they would be smiling too).

As with most of these Trapperman threads, a rather circuitous path is taken, and there are several other questions that have popped up above. I gotta run and start the stinky ol' fish cookin' for Miss Lisa, and I'll try to devote a bit of time for the many other questions that've popped up.

One parting shot, that having to do with wolf pack sizes. Of the collared packs we have had the past few years in Idaho, the average numbers of wolves per pack, if I remember correctly, is 7.2 wolves. In Interior Alaska, that average was closer to 10 wolves. I remember a buddy of mine, who was a good observer and not prone to exaggeration, told me of a pack of 42 he'd seen. I hopped in my 'Cub and drove down to where he'd seen them. It was mid-winter so the light was very limited, and I found a pack of 29. I didn't have the light to look for the others, but I don't doubt the veracity of the report. Further, I doubt that a pack that large would sustain itself for very long.

Sorry for the "windiness" of this reply....

Jack

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#6120908 - 01/10/18 07:50 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Dirt]
52Carl Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 2864
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Dirt
Speaking of B.S. Can anybody interpret this?

"The ministry takes an adaptive management approach and is actively assessing management actions including the potential need for and feasibility of wildlife community management methods."

The only phrase I had trouble deciphering was the "wildlife community management methods".
"wildlife management methods" would be an understandable phrase.
How does "community" fit in?
Is it a left-wing liberal communist maneuver, empowering wildlife with a human characteristic, namely "community"?
Bottom line is that you can surely count on nothing being changed.

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#6120935 - 01/10/18 08:03 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: jtg]
matz Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 16
Loc: n.mn
jtg = it was not directed at you

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#6120993 - 01/10/18 08:35 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
J.Morse Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 2939
Loc: Northern Michigan
Thank you Mr. Gulo. This is interesting stuff.
_________________________

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#6121006 - 01/10/18 08:44 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: drasselt]
Posco Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/05/17
Posts: 655
Loc: Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted By: drasselt
Not a great photo but this is interior Alaska and part of a 31 wolf pack.





You don't see that every day. Neat!

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#6121019 - 01/10/18 08:54 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 667
Loc: Marion Kansas
Gulo
Very good post. Looking forward to reading more. I don't live with wolves so can't speak first hand but it sounds like the management aspect of the wolves is what is missing here in the lower 48. The federal Government is shoving them peoples throats with no plan to manage them.

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#6121090 - 01/10/18 10:08 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 15373
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
Community wildlife management is allowing those that live with the wildlife a say in how they are managed.Like the Local Citizens Committees have input into forest management etc.
Sort of like how a registered trapline allows the trapper to be the frontline conservationist of the resource he depends on for income.
The opposite of having decisions made from some beurocatic desk far removed from reality.


Edited by Boco (01/10/18 10:13 PM)

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#6121092 - 01/10/18 10:12 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Osky]
JakeDog Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 2972
Loc: Morehead city NC
Originally Posted By: Osky
Originally Posted By: JakeDog
Think it is cool the injuries most any predator takes and survives but then think they are trying to take down a large prey animal with their teeth! Think prehistoric folks skeletons that have been found have also shown such injuries and probably from hunting large animals with whatever weapons they had to use.

Cool info y'all just reading some of you crowd that been around wolves and deal with them a bit.

keep posting! good reads here at the fire house until the tones drop anyhow ----

J



Pay no mind to those pre-historic folks skeletons, just get the first hand info from White17.

Osky


First hand stories are best!
_________________________
Suppression rules/prevention drools

Confidence is going fly fishing for Moby Dick, in a row boat, and bringing tartar sauce with you.

Top
#6121094 - 01/10/18 10:14 PM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: RiversNorth13]
JakeDog Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 2972
Loc: Morehead city NC
Originally Posted By: RiversNorth13

A few stats for Wisconsin.





This one is not quite up to date yet, population is higher now .



ThOught wolves liked little pigs?
_________________________
Suppression rules/prevention drools

Confidence is going fly fishing for Moby Dick, in a row boat, and bringing tartar sauce with you.

Top
#6121281 - 01/11/18 07:18 AM Re: Wolves Wiping Out Caribou [Re: Tweed]
Cooper58 Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 556
Loc: Central MT
Muslim wolves ?

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