Proverbs 17:15 point out to me the "self righteousness" of the Jewish elite whose hearts were far from Him and the God given righteousness of the sinner who comes to him by faith.
He is Lord of all.

But nobody else can?

Here's what I know.
I can't describe the salvation experience anymore than I can describe a sunset - a person just has to experience it.
If a person is truly, in their heart, seeking for the Lord, He will reveal Himself to them.

If not, then all they have is this life.
For them - this is as good as it gets.
For me - this is as bad as it gets.

You still don't get it.

Play your own hand. We're all gonna have to show our cards at the end.

I guess I don't... but, as far as Scripture goes, I don't believe you can pick and choose what you will believe and what you won't.

I don't believe I said "pick and choose" but I'm not going back and look either.

However, if I don't believe let's say "The Eastern Sky cracking open and EVERYONE hearing the trumpets and seeing Christ descending" as written but instead believing something that makes sense that I can understand I'll be quizzed on it and lose the Salvation promised me for believing other instructions given in the same Book?

I believe man was descended from apes.

And the longer I hang around here, the more I am convinced of that. -- Hal

I agree. That is not a point of anything explained in Romans 10:9. There are many different view points on eschatalogy, and none are disqualifiers.

The thief on the cross that repented- end times was not a concern or requirement. Doing good works- not a requirement. Baptism- not a requirement. Belief in Christ as shown in his confession was all that was required. He demonstrated repentance, belief and confession all in one simple act.

As we study God's word after salvation, and we begin to discover God and His truth, we start to develop a systematic, consistent view of prophecy and truth. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept, we should gain an understanding of Who it is we are worshipping and what His plan is for our lives now, and in eternity.

Too often, we determine who we want God to be, and force Him to fit into our agenda. All we have done, is created an idol that instead of being worshipped by us, becomes our avenue to whatever desire we lust after.

But here is my personal struggle: I know that someday I will stand and give account for what I did in this life after I believed and received the free gift of salvation. Further, as a teacher to others (and yes, giving information on this forum in this manner constitutes "teaching"), I will be held to a double account- what I believed and what I taught.

As my works are tested in the fire to see what was done for Christ (gold, silver, precious stones) and what was done in the flesh (wood, hay and stubble), no matter what is left- When I look into the eyes of my Saviour and realize exactly and fully what He did on my behalf, I will fill with sorrow of why didn't I do more? Why didn't I learn more of Him? Why didn't I study harder and share more?

I don't post here to "win a debate". I post these things because I believe them, and because the Lamb is worthy of the reward He paid for, and if one person can be delivered from the wrath to come, any ire or insults directed towards me, any ridicule for what I believe or have posted.... will all be worth it.

My belief isn't an opinion. It is a life changing metamorphosis that compels me to live as Christ lived, and to love as Christ loved, to the extent that I am able.

But are you being Christ like or more like the pharisees?

The Pharisees practiced legalism. Their justification came (they believed) through keeping the law (which they expanded from God's Written Law, into the Oral Law and also the Mishnah). In Romans we are told that the law cannot save us- it can only point out the failure of man trying to attain God's standard. Grace is the free gift given by God whereby we accept the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross on our behalf.

Once saved, we do not practice good works to add to or to enhance our salvation. We do it because it pleases God. The rewards that are won (or lost by not living the transformed life we have been given in Christ), are not for our benefit. They are the crowns we cast at the feet of King Jesus, in recognition of the fact that he gave us the ability to earn them, and that they rightly belong to Him and Him alone.

The Pharisees were described by Jesus as white washed sepulchers- pretty on the outside, but dead internally. I would hope that I am almost the opposite of that. Nothing special or noteworthy on the outside, but on the inside, I exhibit the love of Christ by loving my brother, by honoring my mother and my father, by doing what pleases God.

If I have come across in a manner other than this, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

"So, when we come to a passage such as Christ at the last Passover, announcing 'this is my body' and 'this is my blood', we fully understand that He is not speaking literally."

Who is that "we"? You aren't including the largest denomination of Christians on the planet.

Catholic doctrine is that the hosts shared at modern Communion still, are the literal body and blood of Christ.

Jim

One book says both thieves on crosses rallied against Jesus. The other book says one thief did, and one didn't.

How is that not a contradiction?

Your explanation that both thieves heaped scorn on Jesus initially, then one repented, is a neat bit of legalistic gymnastics, but won't fly. Neither book says what you want them to say.

Furthermore, if your legalistic interpretation is valid, then one or both books are guilty of deception by omission of a key fact. The first book leaves the clear impression that both thieves were abusive to Jesus. That one of them might repent is too important a fact to leave out of any account of events.

You will undoubtedly take the same legalistic approach, finding loopholes that allow you to escape from contradiction, if we look at the different accounts for the fate of Judas given in the Gospels. One book has him hanging himself, the other says he threw himself off a cliff, splitting open his guts.

Your argument will be some variation of having Judas hanging himself, then the rope breaks, and he falls from a cliff. Whatever. Your explanation, I predict, will require some additional fact or supposition that is not based directly on the Bible.

That's how adherents always explain the contradictions.

Jim

How was the day measured before the earth and sun were created, and how could a week be invented before the day?

Why did an omnipotent God need a full day of rest?

Is it possible the Bible's reference to "day" means age, epoch, or stage of creation? If you allow for that, then scientists and Christians are not in disagreement as to the steps of creation and their probable order.

Jim

James,
Some apparent contradictions such as the Judas dilemma might seem a little hard to explain, however the differing account of the two thieves isn't too troublesome. It's seems likely that both thieves were mocking Jesus at first (they were there for hours) before the repentant thief really figured out who Jesus was.

If you have four different witnesses to a traffic accident most of them will have a slightly different account, that doesn't necessarily mean any of them aren't telling the truth, they are just telling the story from their perspective.

If the folks who compiled the books of the bible thought these apparent contradictions were a problem don't you think they would have "fixed" the problem passages so that the bible would seem more credible? That these apparent problems haven't been fixed gives the bible more credibility in my mind.

It seems pretty amazing that the bible was written over thousands of years (if you go back to the book of Job) and written by about 35 different guys, in three different languages and at times in different cultures, and it's theology, and message flow into a complete story; past, present and future.

Waggler, you are right... so long as you don't think the Bible is in all places the literal word of a divine Creator.

Jim

James,
I think where some believers get a little lost in the weeds is when they start to view the bible itself as something to venerate or worship. I believe the bible is completely accurate in describing God's complete plan for mankind. However, there is no way the bible can be transliterated from it's original texts into English or any other language without causing some confusion.
What is amazing though imo, is that it's core message hasn't changed even with translation problems.

The earth does not require the sun in order to make a complete rotation on it's axis, which is what constitutes a day.
The week was not established until the 7th day, thus a complete week.

An omnipotent God does not "need" a full day of rest. He chose to take it. Later, we are told that man was not made for the Shabbat (day of rest), but the Shabbat was made for man. Man is the one that needed (needs) the day of rest.

In the Hebrew, the word "yom" when used in conjunction with an ordinal number (first, second, etc) is always a 24 hour day. To further emphasize the fact, the qualifier in the text of "the evening and the morning".... were the 1st day, 2nd day, etc.

Why would a creator write a less than perfect book? You would think with consequences like being set on fire or turned into a pillar of salt on the table, guidelines would be pretty clear.

The seven-day week in the West can be traced back to the ancient Babylonians--pagans.

China, India, and Japan--also pagan cultures--also used a seven-day week.

Jim