I think the ones that didn't comment on the topics but posted, gave good info just the same!! Everything in this post is more info than I've seen in most books, just without the fancy cover and a $10.00+ price tag.

This is a GREAT Post. And now for my own opinons. LOL.

If you follow any of my Posts on serious trapping issues you will find that I tend to always err on the side of covering my bases. LOL.
I generally don't use much bait, unless it is a dirthole I will occasionally use it, but for the most part if I am trapping Coyote, I like at least 2 smells at a coyote set, Just to cover my bases. But I will admit, When I use Asa's All Call lures, I only use that lure, Nothing else, and I do so with great success.
But I think a lot of that comes down to what you are confident in.
I have mentioned this a few times here, and Before the Crash we had a GREAT thread going about it, and I think it would kind of spur this conversation a bit more too.
It is a proven fact that confidence can be directly related to pheramones release and chemical make up of a person.

The conversation that Paul had started was that He and his father could trap the same area using the same baits/lures and one would catch more than the other. The set making was the same, as Charles had Taught Paul, but the outcomes would be different, and sometimes it would benefit one more than the other.
So now my question is, why is it that I might use a Lure with GREAT results, and yet someone else in my area could use the same lures, with the same types of setups and not be as successful.
We are going to assume for our purposes that everyone is on common Ground here and wearing gloves, wearing rubber boots, and not leaving scent around etc.
So does everyones chemical makeup have to do with their success as a fox/coyote/bobcat/wolf trapper?

And for the record. I am pretty certain that Phil would put up HUGE numbers no matter where he trapped so long as the animals were there. You don't just put up those kind of numbers because you put a trap in the ground. You have to have a process, and you have to have the know what you are looking at when you see it. What I mean is that to put up those numbers, you can't afford to have too many sets that don't connect, so EVERY set you make has to be as effective as it can be.
And that all comes from nothing but experience and Know how.
I can say this too. I am very excited to see some people involved in this thread. Anyone New, anyone young, you should know that the information in this thread is the stuff videos are made of. LOL.
You have the opinions and information from some of THE top K-9 trappers in the US involved in this thread.
ASA, Phil, Slim, Buzz, etc. Make no Mistake, These gentleman KNOW k-9 trapping.

ok i have seen a few posts ill comment on
1) crawford you said you have never had sucess with the staked out hole. I personally only use that i actualy dont even carry a trowel with me anymore. I know i know nothing about fox trappin but i took 102 reds offf 12 set locations. and non of them had large holes. I am assuming by you saying that,that i should have taken more fox from those spots because my holes where small?
2) bigbrad you talk of doing a 100 fox is a month and doing it half-butted. I would like to see that someday. I may not like Crawford but ii can tell you the man isnt doing it half heartedly. i dont know his exact numbers but i would assume he is doing roughly 150 a month or less. so your comment is kinda a stretch.IMO


And they way everyone is talking kinda takes phil and crawford outta the mix. If any bait and lure combo and any set can cat ch fox here than why ask any of us guys out here for help? Anytime someone from this area posts on fox and how to catch them at least one person talks about how easy we have it and come here and do it and how we catch this ,any cause our population is crazy. Then why ask us for help or to comment on things?Yes we have huge populations of fox here BUT that doesnt mean phil and crawford or any of us from this area cant trap very well. This whole SEPA fox thing getting outta hand. Yes we have alot of fox BUT we also have alot of great fox trappers here. and you can take any of us anywhere in the country to trap fox and we can scout,find, and catch said fox. So everyone needs to stop using the excuse that because we are in SEPA that we have stupid fox. I thought that for a small amount of time until this year when i relized you hav eto know how to trap to get triple digets and you really really have to know how to trap to get high triple digits and you are a Master of trappin with over 1000 a season.

I few thoughts....

I am suprised those who use bait do not mention that after applying the bait, it is a good practice to whipe the bait stick a few inches in the side of the set. Kinda gives them a good smell of what's down the whole with out having to committ. Kinda makes them committ with less caution. Of course Charles Dobbins mentions this numerous times in his video, and I believe he felt this was very important. It works for me.

Interesting post. I am such a lowly canine trapper I should even read it much less post on it but what to heck.

NYnovie mentioned that Phil would have great catches any where he went. I don't know Phil personally but have talked with him on the phone, exchanged emails etc. I bet he would have no problem catching fur in any state. But even he will admit he would not make those giant fox catches say in Maine or Indiana. There is an old saying that you can not make chicken pie out of chicken crap, Well you cannot catch a bunch of fur that does not exist. I don't care how smart you are or how hard you work.

O'Gorman may very well be the greatest coyote trapper to walk the face of the earth but he would not have put up the catches he has if he was trapping where there were none or where they actually had check laws. Marty would not be the coyote and snaring guru he is if he lived in say PA due to the variables like people, check laws, accessiablity, etc. etc. I even doubt that Fossil would do 8 or 9 hundred mink a season in Maine or Ohio. Forgive me Fossil for bringing you into the mix. Pluger would have a heck of a time nailing a thousand raccoon in an area that did not have a thousand raccoon. Even the talented Zagmister would have trouble catching numbers of coyotes where the numbers did not exist.
Fact is facts.

So for those that think that the rest of the country are envious of SWPA, tell you what, many of us would like the fox numbers but few would want the rest of the area for anything. Period.

If you do not understand the fact that you need numbers to catch numbers or you do not understand that animals of high numbers areas act differently than the same specie in areas of low numbers, well you just plain don't understand. No one is taking away from any of the fox guru's ability or more importantly business management and work ethic. Not the point at all.

Walter Arnold once wrote in his fox book that when people say fox are not taking bait they are not usually offering anything to the fox that they want to eat.
(Walter Arnold was a pioneer in the lure industry. He was a prolific writer and a all around trapper. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Walter several times in his later years. He was old school no doubt. He was actually a very good writer in that he could take you there out on the line with him.)

When people talk about bait they are almost always talking about prepared bait of some sort.

I don't think Phil, Nightwish, or any other hot shoe will start carrying around buckets of fresh meat but here is something that youngsters might want to think about. As Kermit Stearns told me and often wrote about, young of the year critters are not great hunters and are looking for something to eat. I understand that in todays world a lot of the old time ideas of trapping are tossed aside or completely forgotten. One internet self styled trapping author professional guru recently found peat moss. Hold moly, what a discovery. Been using that since the late 70's. Does that make me smarter?
Well yes but that is beside the point. LOL

Just an old hobby trapper throwing his -.02 cents into the ring.

I learned a hard lesson a long time ago that I was reminded of reading one of Phil's posts. If you don't have something to sell, keep your yap shut when it comes to how much you catch. Plain and simple truth.


God Bless and take care
Mac

NY Novice wrote...
So now my question is, why is it that I might use a Lure with GREAT results, and yet someone else in my area could use the same lures, with the same types of setups and not be as successful.

Steven Trosper (where are you Steven) always brought up a good point and example about the individual chemical make up odor of a trapper affecting the success or failure of a trapper. If I remember correctly, Steven tells of his Uncle who was a very proficient red fox trapper but after becoming sick with cancer his catch steadily dropped to near zero. One would have to assume that a canines keen nose could smell desease or perhaps be repelled by the odor of medications oozing through his skin pores. However, this repeling would likely be the same regardless of the lure brand he was using.
Personally, I have given a lot of consideration to the idea that lures work for some people but not others. However, I am having a hard time buying that theory. Over 50 years every time I had a trapper who couldn't get animals to respond to my lures I could sit and talk with them or take a quick look at thier line and find the real reason for thier failure, point it out and instantly put them on the right path to success. The difference in how lures work for individuals in my opinion is simply in how they apply lures, the amount of lure they apply at sets and whether they use appropriate lures for appropriate sets in both strength and formulation, NOT in any clash between the lure's ingredients and the trappers individual chemical make-up. I may be wrong and my mind is still open but I'll have to see it to believe it. Asa

lennitrapper says:
And they way everyone is talking kinda takes phil and crawford outta the mix. If any bait and lure combo and any set can cat ch fox here than why ask any of us guys out here for help? Anytime someone from this area posts on fox and how to catch them at least one person talks about how easy we have it and come here and do it and how we catch this ,any cause our population is crazy. Then why ask us for help or to comment on things?Yes we have huge populations of fox here BUT that doesnt mean phil and crawford or any of us from this area cant trap very well. This whole SEPA fox thing getting outta hand. Yes we have alot of fox BUT we also have alot of great fox trappers here. and you can take any of us anywhere in the country to trap fox and we can scout,find, and catch said fox. So everyone needs to stop using the excuse that because we are in SEPA that we have stupid fox. I thought that for a small amount of time until this year when i relized you hav eto know how to trap to get triple digets and you really really have to know how to trap to get high triple digits and you are a Master of trappin with over 1000 a season.

lennitrapper, you make a good point. I know that the Leggetts took down good numbers and if they didn't share and I did not listen I would still be behind the eight ball. I love the people who share good information freely but also know that even though the populations in my area might be low but with the same information and hustle I can do a larger catch relative to my populations. I believe the two things that fit in here is
(1) jelousy if this is the right word..certain folks want the success of someone else for reasons like self gratification, recognition by others, income, etc but they only see the surface so they find excuses why the other guy is more successful. We see the end result and crave it but have no real idea what it took for the person to get there.
(2) drive...it takes real motivation and dedication to achieve these levels that many folks simply put do not have with either time restraints, finacial restraints or just plain lack of get up and go. Successful people are dedicated, perservering, etc.

I for one am happy being a hobby trapper so to speak but I do enjoy learning from those who share. So guys like you, phil, crawford and even Joe whoever that has information to share and is willing to do it, I for one am willing to read and learn from you. You too have to forget those folks that find excuses for they will find even more for other folks long after you are gone. I thank every person who has shared some tidbit to make me enjoy our sport even more and emphasize that sportmen more often than not are their own worst enemy and someday they will pay a very dear price for their divisions even though I wish for different.

This has been one of the more interesting ane thought provoking posts I have read for awhile. Thanksd guys for I enjoyed it.......Mac~

Once again ASA you said a big mouth full that I agree with 100%

Good reading and good ideas!!!!! Just remember....you don't win in a pee-pee-fight with a skunk!!!

I agree as well with NY novice to a point. Phil is one hard working guy. I have learned about Mr. Brown many years ago when making many visits to Russ Carman's place in New Milford. I respect him and look up to him for his hard work ethic and his system and NOT BECAUSE HE CATCHES 1200 FOX A YEAR. Enough of this and back to lure. Location and pop. play a larger role in a catch than lure. Hunger may play a part in areas that get heavy snows or have very high populations in which competition for food works in. I would like to suggest a book for trappers wanting to learn more about foxes, its title is:" Red Fox The Cat Like Canine" by J. Henry. Its a very good read. My feelings on chunk bait are that if by chance the fox hooks the piece out without getting caught he or she will mark the spot with urine that tells other foxes I have cleaned this cache out. Most other foxes will avoid the set, now with Phil's video the catch circle already created by many other fox catches is actually the draw and will keep other foxes hanging around until caught. When using a good formulated lure at a set, if applied correctly at the very bottom of a dirt hole or at the very back of a trench set some of the lure will leach into the soil and when the fox works the set he will do so to get every part of that lure out of the hole. At all of my locations I make 2 sets, 90% of the time they are both step downs. Sometimes I make a sod set and use only a gland lure. I do use bladder urine sometimes late in the year when dispersed foxes are looking for mates and territories of their own. Most adult foxes are caught in re-makes of young of the year. The catch circle is a powerful tool. Again these are my thoughts and ramblings. Mike

I just want to thank all who posted, for the info contained in this thread.
If a person takes the time to read ALL of these pages and pull the bits and pieces of valuable information from them, One can obtain some very good "notebook" material here. THANKS

its goin to be very cold here for the next week.i am on my way out to reset my line now. i will use bait on one set and lure on another at a few spots and see how it works. ill take pitures and what not and tell what type of bait and lure it is, not the brand because well its all privatly made stuff

thanks Lennitrapper, I would like to see what your sets look like as well as the location of the set as it relates to the immediate area. That is the question I have longed for an answer to. Once you have where you will make a set..What are you looking for to pin point the EXACT set location. For instance. I want to set it at "this" clump of grass instead of "that" Rock that is 4 feet away (and Why).
(If that makes any sense)

I think its being missed that its fairly important to know what various lures do to the animals you are after, in dirthole sets it seems to be the idea that for whatever reason the animal wants to get it out or stick his head in according to this thread anyways. With the right call lure the hole dont mean much or at other times can mean alot, for example if a lure really brings on the neck and shoulder rubbing thing you can just pour it on a large rock several inches higher than the trap bed and catch coyote after coyote, a decent paste bait smeared under a flat rock and the trap in front with a fair backing and he will get caught trying to move the rock, lenons super rangecoyote will take yote after yote with an open unblended pattern where they are thick by smearing some on a rabbitt foot and wireing it to a corner post with rusty baleing wire, ogorman and dobbins both have one that elicits so much scratching one can drill a hole in a tree with a trap out front and they will get caught trying to scratch the tree in two to get the lure out, dobbins has another one that when carefully slipped into a crack in a large bleached bone will chew on the bone until their teeth fall out to try and get it out and you can place the trap darn near anywhere and it will catch them, wany derrick has one that if slipped into a crack in a power line pole and the trap gets froze over the yote wull leave a considerable amount of his winter coat on the power line pole rubbing on it for a long time, if the trap fires its a whole new ball game as for some reason he stops all his rubbing but it sure is handy to use at times for me anyways, seems like knowing the lures means something to me and no i did not learn it on my own, i got the diea from one of dobbins books.

I think Phil is old

I like him but I personally would not kiss him. Sorry Phil.

On the subject of bait I think Asa earlier eluded to the fact that hauling around bait can contaminate your traps with bait smells. I agree especially if you are using a truck with a topper.

With my side doors on my toppers, and my style of trapping, I generally set up the back of my truck with the drivers side being the "coon side" and the passenger side being the "canine side". Meaning all the gear and bait for one is on its side, the other is on the other. The caught animals get stacked in the middle.

I generally have a bucket of coon bait on one side and a bucket of canine bait on the other, and the whole back of the truck inside the topper smells like bait.

When I keep my canine traps in the back of the truck they are in a wooden box with a lid on it, with some hay in there to buffer the traps from picking up smells that dominate the back of my truck. Also, I have a setup for the back set of my truck, where I can keep buckets of snares or buckets of canine traps there, and not have to worry about bait smells.

Water traps I do not care if they get bait smells on them. Dry land traps and snares I protect from bait smells.

I would kiss Andy though.

Right you are Andy about the two being different.

But they aren't extremely different on their likes of smells are they?

Garsh yes they are. You can't catch foxes on coyote urine, least thats what I heard (insert sarcasm here) That's why the Government trappers never catch red fox in ther summer coyote sets, cause they use coyote urine.

But seriously, most things that one will respond to the other will also. I would say the bigger difference would be the agressiveness a fox is willing to work a set, the location you might place the set, what you can get away with as far as natural looking sets from one species VS the other, etc.

Hey Mac, I do not know how good of a coyote trapper O'Gorman is, but I would bet only a couple of people have made more money in trapping related side businesses lure and instruction etc.
I would have to think the very best coyote trapper ever was someone only known locally who most never heard of.
There have been and still are a couple locals here who were tremendous trappers probably no one will ever here about them because they have nothing to sell.

I am talking red fox, I have zero experience with coyotes and limited with greys. In order for a fox to fully evaluate a complex smell as Mr. Lenon was talking about, he needs to touch it with his nose. That is the reason why a well rounded gland based, curiosity lure works so well. The glands spark that territorial instinct that foxes cant resist. If I could only have one lure it would the gland based/curiosity type. Lenon's all call is good as well as Blackies Bushmaster/ TKO. Again this is only my opinion. Its not the only way but its my way. I enjoy helping other trappers. Mike