Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3145614
05/03/12 11:17 AM
05/03/12 11:17 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43 North of the river in missouri
inthetallgrass
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
North of the river in missouri
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Mike NO offense but coyotes sure ain't fish!!!!! You know many calling contest where held in my old area? A pile and they had little overall effect on the coyotes period. Having a trapping contest or calling or both when most take place would have little effect on the coyote population for the means in which many portray them to do and or solve.
GOOD Coyote control for the most part is doing timely control in and around the areas that need it the most. Not creaming the crop and moving on. That solves no issues what so ever. Most contest are held when you have the highest population of coyotes ina year cycle, ina few days time even your not going to have any direct impact to due to dispearsal of thoise coyotes at these times of year. Kill coyotes out of an area in the Fall and winter and see how long it takes to fill in good coyote habitat.
IN the upper Missouri watersheds they have many walleye fishing contest and they have little impact on the population due to the abundance of great walleye habitat, food and rearing. Fishing lakes and ponds far different than a large river system.
Last edited by intheweeds; 05/03/12 11:21 AM.
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: inthetallgrass]
#3145770
05/03/12 12:45 PM
05/03/12 12:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0 USA
Wildlife2
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
USA
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Wildlife 2 where did it state WS was critical of local trappers catching coyotes? Also a bounty program is ineffective and has been proven to be a waste of money time and time again! Third paragraph
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3145955
05/03/12 02:46 PM
05/03/12 02:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43 North of the river in missouri
inthetallgrass
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
North of the river in missouri
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MIke you had a 1 in a million deal there fire moves all kinds of wildlife, but do you think it was your abilities that have kept you from going back or the fact no more fires concentraiting them as a bigger factor?
The point is one has to talk about range coyotes as that is the NORM of predator control, fires are not!!!!
I had a rancher where I kept his loses at a respectable rate of less than 5% annually,I can tell you for a fact fall/winter fur trapping isn';t what kept his losses down!!!! Never will.I had that happen as well, the same thing great coyote habitat burned up due to drought, 28,000 acres of prime coyote drainage his losses where higher because of it, that is the abnormal not the norm. You where working the coyotes because of people sightings, I was working to keep a 100% sheep rancher in business.Year in and out. It was never about the money for me if it where you wouldn't have people in the open range ADC workings, becuase I can tell you your never getting rich working for the program !!!!
2 different lines of thought one to bank as much cash as possible, the other to help livestock producers with their production numbers.
Bottom line until you added in the abnormal situation of a massive fire, you posted as such to give the impression that trapping in and of itself and you where the main reason there have been no call backs since 05/06. Was that your doing or mother natures? I can tell you it was mother nature and providing renewed habitat for prey species for those coyotes.
When ever someone makes statments as yours there is ALWAYS an underlying factor involved. Mange is a great coyote control tool but no one can say becuase of my efforts, it is mange that has lessened the phone calls and loss alot of the times. Take a "normal" period of time and trapping by itself is not benefical solution over all in the big scheme to portray such is well??????
Last edited by intheweeds; 05/03/12 02:49 PM.
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3146036
05/03/12 03:33 PM
05/03/12 03:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,995 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
Mike Flick
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,995
1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
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I do understand them, at least I think I do. I dont see them becoming a problem here as much for lots of reasions. We hunt and trap for one. That decreases the size of packs, and makes the whole (power in numbers) thing a factor in our favor. Fewer members means less able to have fresh wheels at the end of the line to take down bigger animals. They actually do drive prey to escape routes like we do, where a waiting one takes up the chase and finishes the job. We havent had a huge catastrophy in the wild, pushing them to enter homes, or live on cats and dogs because thats all there is available. Out west they did just that, and it was realy crazy. Even little kids were getting chased, and some dragged around before the kids parent broke it up. One old man called me while his dog was dying in his arms. He tried to save the dog which was attacked while on a leash walking in broad daylight. As he ran home with the dog in his arms, a coyote was hanging from his bicept. We dont have that here, at least Ive never heard of it. Our yotes are much larger, and smaller packs. There is always fresh roadkill, and no reasion to do such desperate things. Farmers complain about cows getting bloody tails from them, but they dont wanna pay my fees; So they have cows with bloody tails. Now weeds, I am not ever going to say that I am the bestest dog trapper out there, and I also wasnt backed into a corner to tell any aspects of that operation. I was pretty up front about the whole issue. Nor do I care how you do your little friendly thing with the poor farmers in yer neck o the woods. I saw a need, I took care of bizzness, and I came home. If mother nature is to thank, then thanks mother nature. Actually it was a firefighter I have to thank for it all. I guess he wanted some overtime and threw a match. In any event, I go where the money is( Cause I do this for a living) I dont hate farmers, but they always want something for free, and when they hear my prices and sound like they dont like it, I send them a list of local trappers. I wont waste my time with a cheep coyote job when I can do a bat job in half the time for 10 times the money.
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3146105
05/03/12 04:03 PM
05/03/12 04:03 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43 North of the river in missouri
inthetallgrass
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
North of the river in missouri
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Mike states like WI and others in the mid west don't have as many coyote issues as the west for many reasons, smaller land tracts more human interaction DAILY, less livestock and zero open range livestock production. WI along with states like IA and MO and others have a very large small prey base, unless talking north woods and then the wolves help limit coyote numbers and densities as well.
Other areas have that without fires, there is areas in the west where coyotes have sancutarys and they attack dogs and cats, Denver, Ft Collins and other cities have had issues with coyotes and local pets.
Most Ranchers and farmers aren't "cheap" as you say they need cost versus effect. They need to see the problem one that warrants the cost no different than when they apply a self tax to themselves to help pay for wildlife control like they do in many western states Mike. In WY every rancher pays 1.00 per head on cattle and sheep add that up statewide and they contribute alot of money for themselves, other states do the same. They can choose to receive services from private contractors or govt agnecies they pay into that with their money and have a stake in it.
I never heard of a "cheap" coyote job where I have worked. I don't see the people as a means of money for me, they are friends and neighbors and many great ADC western coyote men take the loss as hard as do the ranchers, different mind sets No right or wrong just different. It is a part of the western heritage been around alot longer than you or I Mike. I hope it continues on for many more years to come.
For the record most coyotes in the west are exploited coyote populations are not true pack animals most are made up of Ma and PA and offspring until fall then break up, they will gather back in heavy snow to work bigger game, but they don't have a true packing mentality like wolves. On spring dens it is made up of ma and pa and a nurse mate ussally a female from the previous year whoi is dry but that can change but talking the avg setup. Early hefier calvers will have large groups of coyotes in and around them but not true packing at all, just high coyote densities, but come denning time they are broken up defending their own niche in life.
Last edited by intheweeds; 05/03/12 04:05 PM.
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3146213
05/03/12 05:25 PM
05/03/12 05:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 59 Gillette, WY
Lobo Rojo
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 59
Gillette, WY
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Intheweeds is the only one that seems to grasp that there is a huge difference in coyote trapping and control geographically. Midwest farm situations and California urban situations are not the same as open range western coyote control. Unless you have been HERE and done that, you have no grasp of the situation HERE. The big livestock areas and problems. Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, western SD, etc. I am one trapper, who used to work for the USDA, and now contract to my county privately, and I alone take care of over 3000 sq miles of territory and over 30000 head of sheep and close to that number of cattle. I'm not getting into your ongoing argument over WS, just talking specifically about what intheweeds has tried to explain about coyotes in western range conditions. It's different.
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Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN
[Re: Wildlife2]
#3146246
05/03/12 05:55 PM
05/03/12 05:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43 North of the river in missouri
inthetallgrass
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
North of the river in missouri
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Im not sure why you think putting pressure on yotes wont work, look what we did to wolves here 75 years ago.
Mike you can't be serious to think wolves and coyotes are the same can you? I can tell you they are not! If wolves had the drive to sruvive like coyotes we would all be in trouble!
Not putting pressure on coyotes but killing when the killing has the most benefit is "KEY". I hear too many that think fall/winter fur trapping or a bounty has the same effects as timely predator control, they do not most of the time.
I'm well aware why coyotes kill: food,agression, to protect territory and at times just for the sake of such.
I am a past ADC Trapper Mike worked for the govt, enjoyed it fully and learned alot through the years from some of the best in the business. Names most don't know because they don't spend their time on websites such as these. But excellent coyote hands for sure and know them well. When you chase coyotes all months of a year in areas of very heavy exploitation you get to see them at their best and their worst and you use their weekness to get rid of them in an efficant manner. I can tell you at times of the year there are other tools far more efficant than traps! AS Lobo Rojo pointed out when you cover 2,500-3,000 sq miles you sure keep busy and put in alot of long days, you learn you have to, to be good at your craft and also to keep the very people you work for happy.
You must remember in sheep country coyote tolerance is very,very low and they are pursued with every thing you can think of and then some. Yet somehow they still manage to survive and I can tell you if your only tool in your bag is the foot trap then your not going to be very effective. The more tools one has the more efficant one can be, your on a timeline as more loss means less lambs going to the sale barn come Sept and October. The sheep market is at all time highs and looks to stay there for awhile, your not going to hear less from these ranchers but more on livestock losses.
San Dieago is not open range Mike, and yet if you would have read what I wrote I was talking about the mid west. I know a guy who takes Bees to Cali every winter to pollinate almonds and he says you wouldn;t believe the numbers of coyotes he see's and how they have little fear of humans, a few years back he took his fox pro caller and while there he fired it up as 30-40 guys where working the almond fields and had 5 coyotes come within 200 yrds of him, weaving their way through all the tractors and people. A far different "bird" for sure. They see humans as a Positive not so much a negative in that enviroment, I would love to call that area!!!!! Opportunistic is what they are for sure! Coyotes in heavy persicution don't act like that very often or they wind up dead in a hurray!
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