Hd I prefer your method of one way doors and exclusion less time and less money spent on my end.

Psb, I would not hire you or let you in my house dressed they way you are in those photos. I am not saying you aren't good at what you do, but like most people I am superficial and appearances do matter.
Good luck to both of you...

Unfortunately,for you,I'm the guy that did the hiring.
Second,you have no idea of what groundhog exclusion I may have done earlier that day .
For as ratty as I looked at times,my pest control business did 6 figures 8 and 9 years ago.
Third,I also ran and worked concrete flat work business,while running a wildlife pest control business.All with employees,workers comp,payroll taxes,and everything that goes with it
For months on end,I worked 100 plus hours a week.
How unfortunate for you that you are superficial,and could not put to use a hard,and knowledgeable worker such as me.
Edit.
Thought Id add something here.
When you gain a reputation like I had,you don't have to dress up,and put lipstick on to get the work,Mr Baxter.

Baxter ..I wouldn't give them the time of day Just sayin .. they cause enough trouble from state to state trying to be the big cheese in nuisance control Biz and you " know who are just trying to pad there pocket" Glad MI got smart and told them what to do with there control info

PSB I wouldn't let them get under your skin some guys have nothing better to do then be an Arm chair quarter Back just sayin

I don't trap bats anymore but when I did I never lost any in the trap and I do think they had the ability to come back or survive where I released them. I haven't read up on white nose recently but I believe it is spred in damp caves during the hibernation not hot attics. Either way excluding or trapping I'm not sure one or the other spreads white nose. I only have an insult for a bat trapper if he is not checking and removing the bats early a.m. and I haven't seen or heard any evidence here. I have never lost bats in a bat trap. I don't see the need to critisize either method or person doing it. PSB looks like a fit young man who works hard a uniform or something might look nicer but I'm going to guess he is a well known character in his community and people trust him because they know him. I think we need to make recommendation on what to do not so much wht not to do or people won't share anything.
PSB you probably have several p.ms because people don't want to jump into dirty water and a lot of your stuff is sold.
I would take all of tht stuff in the photos to the NTA in Ohio or the 20th WCT in Lexington Kentucky in November if Alan Huot doesn't whine to much:-) and you will sell it all. Or pm me and I may drive to Pa. and buy it all.
PSB and HD you two need to pm each other and admit y'all got crried away on the enternet

Phil who needs to trap bats when you can catch
All those fox! Gd luck tday at nafa! The numbers
You put up in a year are simply amazing! My hat is
Off to you for that! And if I was closer I would surely
But that ladder, been looking for one a little
Bigger than 40ft

[quote=Paul That's a lot better than I do with my other arguments.[/quote]
Well, those of us who are married seem to have a far lower argument win percentage than single guys...
And, PSB, you look fine for a laborer in the photos. If you want laborer $$$ and treatment, continue dressing like that; if you want professional perks, look and act like a pro.
This is not opinion or anything new, guys. Most of the world knows and accepts this. The rest are hampered by their ignorance & arrogance.

"Baxter ..I wouldn't give them the time of day Just sayin .. they cause enough trouble from state to state trying to be the big cheese in nuisance control Biz and you " know who are just trying to pad there pocket" Glad MI got smart and told them what to do with there control info"

"some guys have nothing better to do then be an Arm chair quarter Back just sayin"

Dannel,

It would appear that you have again headed down a strange road in regard to my comments. They aren't coming from any association perspective, they were my own, there are enough threads with folks arguing one side against the other which isn't just wasteful but takes a lot of space up.

This post many will be thinking is a waste of time and space as well because so many folks do this work without the bat trap and use the methods that have been developed and tested and proven as effective without the need for capture of 20-400 live bats within a box on a roof.

I am acting out of my own interest, no one told me to post it, the armchair quarterback or nothing better to do statements are beyond ridiculous, I managed to keep up with the "debate" being posed while conducting my work load 3.5 hours from home yesterday, so don't worry about me hanging out at my computer in my boxers trying to think of a "zinger" for you.

I am concerned about anything that I see as an issue for bat conservation or for professional bat excluders across the country. I have attended enough meetings with the folks trying to research, enhance and benefit bat conservation to know that many are misguided about what excluders do and how we benefit bats by providing a positive interface with the public and calming the often irrational fears of just seeing a bat in the yard flying.

Throughout time we benefit from better technology, whether that is paws i trip pans for footholds that reduce non target catches, enhanced understanding about more swivels in your chains, better live trap setups like we see on here daily for the myriad of mesocarnivores that people work with, and yet with bats my issue would come down the same.

Since with other wildlife we truly need traps in the majority of situations, I can understand why we would fight to keep them in place.

With bats I'm not sure how many decades ago people created and developed the one way valve systems being widely used and accepted, but that method is in every extension pub, training manual and in the minds of bat biologists, even homeowners I see at their homes who have issues.

So if I approach this from a purely what is needed to do the remove bats from a structure standpoint, I cannot see why someone would justify keeping the bat trap in legal use.

As a wildlife professional, you make the call on what is best for your clients, if you have a couple of solid options you can and many do, allow the homeowner to make the call on what is best, for pigeon exclusion in my case this might be, do you like this ledge product or that one. Most of that is aesthetics.

But would I ever let a homeowner decide what devices were best that involved the capture of an animal, or in this case anywhere up to hundreds of animals in a small box?

Not on your life.

The FACT is that this device is an antiquated tool at this stage in what we all know is available. If it was necessary and desired it would be sold widely and commonly accepted, but it isn't.

Now folks use a variety of valves that have been showcased on here by some great folks that are willing to share their knowledge to help us all as an industry, these folks are from all "camps" in this two sided debate that has been going on, so again, this isn't coming from a "side."

I have seen amazing devices created out of PVC and plywood attached to homes, soffits, commercial buildings, fluorescent light carrier tubes that act as one ways, netting, and a variety of other simple and proven tactics that allow the bats to go without you putting your hands anywhere near them, without you taking them anywhere, and without you holding them in your possession.

So while the debate got very heated and I know I'll still get criticized for my stance as some sort of radical nut (no worry on my end, being called any number of names is more sad than anything) I'll still feel the way I do and still push this issue.

We've been taught as an industry or field that losing a device is not acceptable as it opens some sort of floodgate. I understand this argument when it comes to foothold traps and other such devices that folks have fought for.

We don't harvest bats, we are rarely asked to catch bats (except the ones inside a living space with a homeowner), we have other proven effective and cost effective options that tens of thousands are using across the country and the world to exclude bats.

So tell me again, why someone should legally be allowed to set a box on a roof with a dryer hose attached and obtain anywhere from 5-500 bats in a single night?

To what end?

We don't need this and I guarantee this device will eventually rise to the ire of the folks who do have power as you folks in the eastern and midwestern states see WNS expand its grip.

Bats are dying by the millions and somehow a few folks believe having the right to trap up to 500 in a plastic box is sensible management in the face of more proven, logical exclusion techniques.

Any post I make in the future on this when it comes up will stay on this topic line, folks can say what they like, call me whatever they'd like, my song will remain the same and I will be pushing this issue and it won't be from my armchair!

Justin

Justin - you go! I support you 100% and will team up with you on this cause.

DaveK

lol,,,,,,, Like phil said,,,,,,,when you have a outstanding reputation,,,,you do not need to wear a prom dress.........

(the right nail polish helps thooooooooo)

Okay, which one of you morons let Vinke read that post?

I trap bats when there inside the house coming going ,nothing to it make my own traps as well . Can't see anything wrong with that must be the man in the area after seeing all these web sites of local company's using my name on the adds . Must take a major bite out of your man hood have a new web site made up of such large size then Right on the first line bam you feel the need to put my name there . That's awesome thanks Guys maybe someday when you grow up you'll have atleast half my skills I have . I'll make you some specile videos then link your web sites to them explaining how and why you feel need to use my name


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaHx0oNFWWk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

pesky,,,,i googled it and no were did i see you name in the top five.............(sorry to pee on you umbrella)......

some of them do have nice sites tho.........

Now I'm just confused!

I can say I am not always in uniform when i show up on the customer's Door step and Most say when they see me with Dirty cloths they always say Busy Day Hey what I feel they look at the most is a great job one does.

LMAO

Let me rephrase what I said. I wouldn't have a problem with someone that looks like they work for a living work at my house, my wife on the other hand would have a problem.

Baxter, sounds like your married my wife's twin.

"Get out of here. You're all dirty and smell like sweat and leave those shoes outside."

It seems that the greatest concern of those who are against the use of traps is the spread of WNS. Furthermore, those who can legally use the traps and are not convinced to use exclusion methods alone will continue to do so.

With those two premises in mind, I would like to change the direction of the thread and ask, particularly Justin, what is the proper method that cave explorers and researchers use to decontaminate their equipment to prevent the spread of WNS?

If operators who use bat traps (and care about the bats as you do) have the proper information on how to clean their equipment (and actually do so between jobs), wouldn't that prevent spreading the disease. Then the issue of their use would be mute. Don't you agree?

Would you (or anyone with the proper knowledge) be kind enough to explain in detail, the steps for decontaminating the traps and equipment that WCO's may use on bat jobs?

While we do not use traps, I can think of a number of things; like respirators, knee pads, bump hats, lights, etc; that we might use from job to job that I should probably be decontaminating.

Sincerely,

Hi Dirk,

Good post and I'll gladly provide links to the most current decontamination protocol that all govt. agencies are following and that cavers follow as well. This was developed by USGS and USFWS and others and has been modified a few times due to new findings or better understanding of WNS transmission and decontamination needs.

http://static.whitenosesyndrome.org/site...nal_6.25.12.pdf

Thus far no one has put much research into the non hibernacula (cave) environments, though there are states and researchers who have studied this fungus or looked for it (conducted surveillance) in bat houses and structural roosts. Mostly this is due to the thermal conditions necessary for a "cold loving" fungus to survive.

People are testing cave environments across the country to see if for example our caves in the western U.S. provide the right thermal (temp and humidity) for it to potentially be spread and survive here, causing massive destruction of bats in the entire country.

While folks have detected the fungus in early spring after emergence in some non cave environments, this was right after emergence, so the bats may have just arrived from a cave.

Does this mean it isn't a worry? No, but it means this is currently thought to be a low risk or lower risk than typical cave environments with cold, damp conditions and hibernating bats with low immune system function (normal for their hibernation of course).

******************

WNS was brought into this discussion because bringing gear from one state to another including caving equipment or potentially any other equipment that has been in contact with bats in an infected area would be considered a poor idea, even if it is equipment used years ago or that which may be stored in some cool environment (old barn, basement, garage or shaded shed).

However, my issues with bat traps are not focused on the potential spread of WNS but rather the trap itself and catching hundreds of bats and having them in your possession without any special permit or license is not appropriate or necessary for our industry.

While the bulk of the bat exclusion community including yourself and others that I know you know, use the standard bat exclusion methods, there are obviously folks who want to "trap," it is in their DNA to say I caught 400 bats in your house, look here!

For whatever reason they decide to do it, my issue and stance is that the trap is an old idea that came along before folks all went mainstream and learned to use the most effective and accepted methods of exclusion for bats.

This throwback idea is even worse in the light of dwindling populations of bats across the East and Midwestern U.S. and Canada. We now have places where 50,000 bats in a cave have become 20 bats in a cave and that trend is not just the single cave, it is obviously across the region and local and regional extinctions are not only possible but probable even with the best scientists working with everyone possible to stop the threat.

Another example of why this is not appropriate involves capture of bats. Bat capture for any research is done with mist nets and harp traps unless they are in caves hibernating and can be handled with gloves right off the walls.

We are assisting a grad student on a project this summer in the mountains here and not only did he have to get training and show skill with these methods he had to comply and all those under him with 2 classes on animal care and use and occupational health.

While we work with a variety of these type of folks, this is just one example and shows there shouldn't be a guy with a box and a dryer hose capturing hundreds of live bats weekly or daily in Northeastern MI or anywhere else just because he is not forbidden at this time by law.

Laws have a funny way of not covering potentials and this is just a gross example where if your average wildlife managers (non-game or T&E) were sitting in a room discussing excluders, they would say, "yes those folks do a good job of getting the bats out using one way devices of all kinds and then sealing the structure."

However if someone were to say, "I know a few folks who are using a bat trap" the conversation would quickly change and I can guarantee will raise questions about the ethics of said excluders as an industry.

This is not to say if the DOH (dept. of health) wants a couple of bats due to a rabies exposure someone couldn't allow you under an exemption to utilize some device, however rabies in one bat or a bite of one bat, doesn't ever indicate an entire colony should or would be tested.

The video, pictures and other things we've been shown by those proud to use the box show another relevant topic. Folks don't seem to understand that even if you "trap" 400 bats and move them to a barn and release them, they don't necessarily stay, and even worse, many may die overnight or within days due to the stress of capture.

During my career, I have seen every wildlife species in North America is capable of capture myopathy and dying within hours, or days of release. So releasing 400 bats and thinking you just made a new colony and that all were healthy and safe is not based on any type of follow up or tracking and you aren't marking the bats so even if you go back and count, you can't tell me that it was a success.

So in summary, I'm against the trap in a straight and logical way, while there are other possibilities of threats including disease spread of transmission, it is primarily that it should have been outlawed, but hasn't been everywhere because most folks in management don't know it exists and I can guarantee you that is the case, even if a local warden or local biologist in some states does know it is there, the thousands of folks losing sleep over the millions of bats dying right now, have no idea this threat exists, until now!

I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to clarify on the WNS issues and to provide the decontamination protocol. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is an issue I believe is worth fighting for and I will be working with anyone who will listen to begin the process of removing this relic from being utilized in our industry for the betterment of not only the industry but the resource itself and our clients, who can see the normal approved methods being used by these or any other operators.

Justin