Aaron,

It is a fair question. Here is my opinion or explanation.

Bats don't create their own hole in siding or exteriors, they are readily excluded, with porches or night roosts posing greater difficulty on getting them to leave.

I suppose I'd have to be honest and say every wildlife species gets a pass from me if exclusion or other methods are effective and resolve the issues a homeowner is calling me for.

The fact I love wildlife just makes me try harder to find those non lethal solutions.

I do love bats but I refer back to the first part for the straight answer, bats can be excluded and don't tear off the siding to make a new roost.

I hope that is a balanced common sense answer.

Good question because we all have opinions based on our life experience and backgrounds and business model.

Let me start by stating that I don't like ANY tool being excluded from my toolbox. On the other hand, I also think that there are certain tools that shouldn't be allowed. I'm of the belief that most operators feel this way and this makes us all hypocrites. We all know that it isn't the tool where the problem is, it is how the tool is used. We will always have those that use tools responsibly and will argue for their usage along with those that have seen abuse of the tools and will always argue for them to be excluded.

Specific to trapping bats, is the DWL more lethal than the Bat Trap and which of these (if any) is more lethal than a homemade trap? What about other methods of trapping bats such as glue boards, mist nest, harp traps, fly strips, fishing hooks, or hand netting?

Consider if there is a difference between using a bat trap with an open door allowing the bats to leave, using an "approved" exclusion device, or using some other type of device or material. Now compare these actions with companies that are using pesticides to kill bats (yes, this is not legal but it does happen), exclusions being performed right before the females give birth, exclusions performed with pups not being self-sufficient, and exclusions performed during winter where bats may leave the structure due to weather conditions but then cannot reenter?

Exclusions can be just as deadly to bats as any of the traps/tools I've listed here. Again, it isn't the tool where the problem is, it is how it is used.

With a few exceptions, birds get a "free pass" too!

You might ask youself, isn't a bat a mouse with wings? Nope....not in the least. On one hand, a mouse might live one year, are sexually mature at 4 weeks. A group of 6 mice may have 60 mice in 3 months. Their population grows expodentially. Mice contaminate our food.

On the other hand, you have a bat which is sexually mature in one year, has 1 pup, and may live for over 30 years. Some bats pollinate flowers...where others eat insects that diminish crop yields.

Imagine if deer were (like humans) and only had 2.3 kids per lifetime. Would you be able to hunt as many?

Good explanation. Thanks.

I too believe in limited regulation. However, I do not believe that behaviors will change. The issue is larger than this thread...and this industry needs to be leaders.

Mr. Expodentially, when you say birds "with a few exceptions" get a free pass too, I'm assuming the ones that don't get a free pass are ones that we are allowed to do without a permit. In our state that would be pigeons, starlings, and English sparrows and other members of the blackbird family if they're causing agricultural problems.

Those birds are flying rats, especially the pigeon.

P.S. Which one of my kids is .3?

Thank you for that reply.

Very true exclusions can and do cause harm.

However the operator not the tool is not going to work for me on this one.
Now we all know this is used on foothold traps and the like we all know are created and designed for furbearers.

However we are talking bats and bat exclusion done right with a standard set of rules and guidelines has the highest probability of a neutral outcome for the bat colony.

Energy spent looking for a new roost and potential exposure to predation, environmental conditions and a few others are the typical negatives.

The true problem with saying operator not the tool is you have no ability to stop the operator without regs.

Even then folks will do dirty things and sneak.

I'd rather the industry push out trap use but know that wont happen with politics.

So I'll go one state at a time and work to ban bat traps from use by wildlife or the pest control industry and to see those using glue boards fish hooks, guns, and other implements to harm bats prosecuted wherever possible.

I'm sick of this idea that absence of regulation is the best thing for our industry.

Absence of regs is why market hunting and over utilization of resources created the first game laws and the conservation movement.

Some of us need to fight for the industry and the resource,

Justin

Sorry about the spelling, Paul. My ipad does not have spell chek and i new dat it wuz rong but i gnlected to look er up and yup you got dat point exackly wright. I may not no how to spell it but i shore no what it meens had me a good mice prob dis wintr drove da wife crazy mice in ceiling tiles could here them running

I also don't understand the bird analogy nor the desired impact of posting the longevity records and birth rates for Myotis lucifugus. Why not also say that Eptesicus fuscus has an accepted life span of 8 - 10 years and has twins or that Lasiurus borealis commonly has quadruplets yet only has an accepted life span between 2 - 5 years? Also, I don't agree with the sexual maturity statement but if you've got some recent research on that you'd be willing to share as the last I saw was unsure with a potential of 9 -18 months I'd be grateful.

I’m not trying to be antagonistic and honestly feel that bat conservation is important, but if we are going to discuss it then let's discuss all portions of it operators may encounter and not just those of a single species.

To see change, we need to not only educate fellow operators about bat biology and behavior, but also show how their business can make more money by offering certain services and performing them in a manner that benefits the bats as well as the clients.

I do not believe that it is benificial to complicate the topic to this group. But, you are correct...there are multiple species data...and a lot we are still learning about bats. Speaking technical might make it seem that I am an expert, but communicating it in a manner that everyone can understand will ultimately make a better impact.

Dave, I love it when you talk Michiganese.

Thanks, I can speak both ways...just let me know which is preferred.

Regarding the bird analogy, let me clairify. A fellow was wondering why bats get a free pass. My reasction to the question was to put myself in his position and ask compared to what? What critter that he may deal with....also gets a free pass. Coons - nope. Skunks- nope. Birds - yup. All but the flying rats that Paul mentioned, are protected and we must not wack'em withthout a permit. So, birds is another example of a critter that we control that get's a free pass. Bats are not the sole critter that gets a free pass.

The longevity and birth rates is important to this conversation because differientiates bats from mice in regards to their ability to recover from population reductions. Mice survive because they can reproduce quicker than you can kill them. Longevity and birth rates seem to be connected in the world. Whales....humans....elephants reproduce slowely and live long lives. Mice....blue gill...squirrels...tend to have shorter life spans ans reproduce quickly. Despite your best effort to control mice....or blue gill in a pond...the buggers come back. Whales...elephants...can be hunted to extinction. Humans, are fortunate to be at the top of the food chain.

My exact details in the post might be off, but the points are still valid. I figure that it it is better to explain the relationships....people can look up the details for themselves....or apply it to the species that they encounter in their region.

Thanks for the clarification.

Well let's just whack the hive with a stick. I have been using the DWL bat trap for many many years. If the customer is in the city I will use the trap Not in all cases in the city. I am not in the habit to getting bat out of 1 house and then go back to the neighbors to get them out of that house. In the country I'll use excluder tubes. but in the city and when the house are close together it makes for better public relations when the customer talks to the neighbor I can tell them I'm removing the bats . I DO NOT guarantee that the bats will not come back but I will guarantee there not going to get in to the house I remove them from. Here in our area the customer like the idea of having more then one way of handling bat issues.

Dew...unless you are driving a distance greater than what the species is willing to travel to hibernate....the bats are flying back...then going in neighbors house. Same outcome....more gas...more stress to the animal.

Besides, where you operate you are dealing with mostly little browns. They hibernate in the mines/dams. Install bat houses as an alternative summer roost.

Which is why education, like Eric's "Bat School" is so important to this industry.

Dew, the hive response will be too the point and not emotional or irrational (at least to most).

After reading your comments above and addressing them knowing where you live and having lived within 30 miles of your location myself for 5 years of my existence I would point out the aspects of what you are saying in a slightly different way.

1) You use the trap in the city where house density (therefore potential roost density) is at its highest point, relative to the rural landscape.

2) You use the typical exclusion (one way valves/systems) techniques in the rural landscape where house density (therefore potential roost density) is at its lowest point, relative to the city/suburban landscape.

3) You say your clients "in our area" like to have options to deal with their bats.

So if we work with this set of assumptions and keep this simply based on these points alone, I want to ask you these questions for your review and answer.

The assumption that the bats will move from the home you exclude to the one immediately adjacent assumes the adjacent home offers the same or very similar siding, roofing, access, thermal values, etc... that bats have determined is suitable. In any given neighborhood that I recall from your region there could be 20 different homes within 60 feet of each other, with a variety of exteriors and ranging from a new house to 50+ years old.

You are anticipating that excluding this wildlife species (bats) means you must remove them from the area or you are responsible for any house within a certain range (5 feet, 10 feet 50 feet, 100 feet?) of the home you exclude.

Then when out in rural northern lower MI, an area I know well and love, you would exclude the bats with just one ways and assume that since the bats using a structure (home/building) are not going to go to the immediately adjacent farm even if 100 yards or 1/2 mile up the road as they have less available roosts to choose from.

I would have to assume you realize this is likely that they will only move over the hill, but that maybe the next farm wouldn't likely know you just evicted the colony from their rural neighbor?

So for you does this come down to believing you are actually relocating the colony for good (in a permanent way)?

Or is it the potential for the neighbor to blame you for the bats you just evicted showing up at their unsealed house?

How many excluders or control folks have done work in a neighborhood where multiple homes have bats all at the same time and you can see the signs?

As Dave mentioned with regional migration in your species, why would you assume they aren't flying back before you get home?

I'm sure you only go 20-50 miles max, so how would you assume that your judgement is going to keep these animals which fly up to 300 miles from home to hibernate at this new drop location? Every year they home back to the roost from the hibernation site, so how does this make any actual logical sense to relocate them or make people believe you are relocating them or reducing risk for their neighbors?

Even the slowest flying bats in North America would make this trip in less than 2 hours from your typical drop site.

So I guess while I know your answer it doesn't seem to make sense, and while you may say, "it makes sense to me and my clients and thats all that matters." I'd have to respectfully disagree on this particular topic and technique.

"I DO NOT guarantee that the bats will not come back but I will guarantee there not going to get in to the house I remove them from."

This last statement shows that there is no merit to moving them, so why put them through it and risk the bats lives if you can exclude it, provide your warranty to the client, be paid for professional bat exclusion, and move on?

Justin