Maybe Michigan too. Looks like WNS is gonna close in
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/w...-219833111.html

Everybody thinks it's WNS but us Wisconsinites know beer foam when we see it.

Seriously, I would really like to know what percentage of our jobs are small browns. They all look the same to me.

Before W.N.S hit,49 bats out of 50 removed on late night bat calls would be Little Browns. I have not seen a Small Brown this year, and saw only one last year, but the Big Browns have certainly replaced them and taken over their habitat. The amount of bats I see is the same, but before W.N.S I would rarely encounter a Big Brown, now they are everywhere. The Big Browns are much larger,2-4 times the size of Little Browns, and a lot easier to find when in a home. They seem to stay more exposed.

HD WILDLIFE may say differently but the way I understand it WNS can affect all Myotis species not just the state threatened Little Brown Bat: Myotis lucifugus which also include :

1. Federally endangered Indiana Bat: Myotis sodalis
2. State threatened Northern Long­ Eared Bat: Myotis septentrionalis

Winkleman here are pictures to help you ID

http://fyi.uwex.edu/aocs/files/2011/08/BatPamphlet_new.pdf

Any cave hibernating species is subject to WNS. Big browns due to larger size and shorter winter torpor bouts survive better than little browns who enter winter with less weight and don't wake as often.

While I could see it making sense that in absence of big brown bats, little browns may flourish or use more roosts, the opposite would be a tough one to explain. Little browns wouldn't displace big browns based on any size dominance since they are smaller.

Since you are seeing less little browns Albert it would seem likely that simply seeing more big browns is a case of the only bats around that are causing folks to call.

Of course the only true way to know the population dynamics of these winter cave hibernating species is to look in the caves and compare the notes on years and years of surveys which is what state and fed officials along with universities are doing.

If we look at houses we'd have to see the same houses year after year that and obviously since our job is to exclude bats that isn't happening in our industry.

When you go from 50,000 bats in a cave that were little browns to 50 in 2-3 years, the results are obvious. Big browns are obviously more noted for being able to overwinter in a house or barn or structure in many states even up north, so this could also along with body size be assisting them in overcoming the curse and scourge of WNS.

In my state I rarely see big brown bats and have more Mexican free-tailed colonies and pallid bat colonies. My myotis are one of 4+ species in that group that like homes and structures for roots.

I'm thankful we as yet don't have this epidemic though with jumps like this new MN finding from where it was last spotted, there is no telling how long it will take it to move to the west coast.

Justin

Justin, I agree.

"Since you are seeing less little browns Albert it would seem likely that simply seeing more big browns is a case of the only bats around that are causing folks to call."

But, We have been around 20 + years, and if all we were receiving before this WNS hit was Little Brown calls, where did all the Big Browns come from ? It used to be almost a novelty to go on a call and find a Big Brown Bat. If they were as common then as now, it would seem a higher percentage of our calls would have encountered them ? Also we network on a regular basis with numerous friendly competitors in my local area-having lunch with 2 or 3 daily. They are also encountering the same type of patterns, and past history of species populations.

There is a large rock quarry near us where Little Browns would winter over. When WNS first started, we were getting calls from homeowners in Late winter/Jan-Feb. that had enormous clusters of Little Browns outside there homes. We never realized what was happening, until a few of us got to talking about the strange calls we were getting for that time of year, and they were all located around the perimeter of that quarry. We notified the NYS DEC and heard the Wildlife Biologists went out to take samples and confirmed that WNS was present. It really is an eye opener as to how fragile our environment is, and how something can destroy it so quickly.

Thanks for sharing that Albert, I definitely knew you've been around there long enough and from everything you post I know you pay attention to what is going on with this issue.

It is one of those things that seems strange, but heck, I suppose many things with wildlife and ecology are strange when we see them play out. While it is counterintuitive to me that little browns would block big browns, maybe the prey abundance or overlap is clearing space for more big brown activity? Or maybe folks are more tuned in to bats and are calling about bats they previously wouldn't have, kind of like when a bat rabies case is on the news the phone jumps to life and many of those people had bats for years but now thought, "oh no! rabies! I'd better get rid of these bats on my porch or roof."

I'd also say it is a great thing that you and others you communicate with took the reports and went to DEC, it is a clear showing of how this industry when working professionally and communicating with the governing body in a state can help in critical issues.

WNS is going to continue from everything we see and nothing seems to be able to slow the steady march from state to state, so this will remain an issue that NWCO's can at least serve a positive role in reporting oddities and being tied in as best they can to the managing agencies who are trying to fight this in the caves during winter.

Again, thanks for sharing, always interesting to hear various takes and hear about actual experiences as they have unfolded. Population ecology and dynamics of this issue will probably be studied for decades to come as various species experience localized extinctions or at least heavy reductions and other species that overlap them may experience increases through resource release.

Best,

Justin

Just a thought. If and when WNS runs it's course and hopefully our myotis and cave dwellers develop some sort or immunity or coping mechanism as it appears european species have how does the decimated species recover if the big browns have benefited from the removal of little browns by usurping little brown habitat?

Very good thought David. Bats being so much harder to study with transmitters than birds, and larger mammals of all types heck even fish, makes a lot of this something that will take lots of creative research to even begin to understand.

Right now the focus is so intense on if or how it might be possible to prevent the spread or treat the infected populations and caves that no ones has time to poke their heads into how other species might ultimately change on the landscape.

Bats of course being the ultimate in diverse species with splitting and partitioning of resources and hunting at different elevations and evolving various methods and physical structures (ears/tragus/wings/fur/flight speed), will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Hopefully we won't lose species but right now it sure looks like some are heading that way.

First, I don't see how Big brown bats are benefiting from Little brown decreases. Both species have different habitat requirements and food sources.

While it is true you can have both species sharing the same roost site at times, I don't see it as common occurrence to have a Big brown maternity colony with 100 bats mixed in with a Little brown maternity colony of 600. In cases like this, it seems that both species can be found in the same roost site, but at different locations within the roost. Food wise, Big browns tend to feed at higher heights focusing on moths and beetles in open areas while Little browns feed at lower heights in a more closed environment going after water born insects. Again, there are times where both species will overlap feeding resources with documented cases of Little browns being attracted to areas presumably from the feeding calls of Big browns, but this isn't an every day / every bat case.

I was blasted years ago at a white nose meeting when I stated that most operators cannot tell the difference between Eptesicus fuscus and Myotis lucifugus but I still stand by my comment. This is nothing to feel ashamed about as any decent bat researcher will tell you that even they misidentify a good number of bats without hands-on identification and/or genetic material.

Size is not an effective method of determining species. An adult Big brown bat can be anywhere from 3.5-5.5 inches in size with a wingspan of 12-13 inches while an adult Little brown bat can be 2.6-4.3 inches in size with a wingspan of 8.8-10.8 inches. Now add in juveniles that a 3/4 to 7/8 the size of an adult and you can see where using size alone can be very misleading.

The best way for an operator to identify the bat species is to have it on hand and use a combination of characteristics such as facial structure, ear shape/length, tragus shape/size, body fur location, look and color, foot size, keel or no keel on calcar, and forearm length to name a few. Out of the 47 species of bats in the CONUS very few can be positively identified strictly by visual keys without a lot of hands-on practice with the Spotted bat probably being the number one exception.

Eric,

Your point is well taken, but as you know even though stacks of research and biology are published there are massive volumes we have no worldly idea of when it comes to bats. What may cause roost sharing and associations can be simply thermal conditions, crevice widths, predator avoidance, prey base or water distances from roosts, etc...

This is even more mired by trying to come up with hypothesis based on the random nature of incoming phone calls from the public and where each house/structure roost is in terms of the surrounding habitat characteristics.

I think in terms of identifying bats, sure time of year plays a role, but more importantly it isn't of utmost importance in providing professional exclusion to know the bat species that are within the dwelling which would often require as you mention, handling, measuring and knowledge of keys that are used to distill the potential list down to what you have in your hand. This would also require unnecessary capture and handling by the operator which provides more opportunity for bites to occur, or injury to bats during handling.

While our knowledge of bats has improved every decade thanks to tons of important research by universities and state and fed biologists and non profit conservation groups, we are still in the dark (pardon the pun), on a ton of aspects of what bats do and why and how they do it.

What we don't know could fill one of the great lakes I'm quite sure....

Everybody please read the last WCT post again, because it makes me look a lot less stupid. Thanks Eric.

Eric's point about proper identification sounds spot on.

This has turned into a great discussion.

Wink, Definitely don't think anyone should ever be considered stupid for inability to differentiate between myotis species as they are incredibly similar without the close up caliper in hand i.d. that even some species still evade detection through.

I'm always thankful when we have MFT bats, or pallid bats as they are obvious immediately!

I agree the myotis as a group are far more similar than disimilar making for extreme difficulty in determination. Fortunately though in my experience only the little browns are regulars inside of structures (though I am sure others will but would probably go undetected due to failure to identify). I have seen reports that the two federally listed myotis (indiana and grey) have been observed inside of structures but it seemed to be rarely occurring. BTW, if this is true then it could lead to changes on how we operate. I know here in Georgia there are at least two highway projects that have gotten sidelined by the finding of listed species within a mile of the projects.
JMO, but I think it behooves us as bat excluders to learn how to better identify what we are working with to better be able to not only meet possible changes but to better be able to speak to the subject with some sort of relevence and authority.
I say this because I know that many of us, including myself, are far more familiar with our bats than our regulatory authorities. For instance a google for little brown bats in Georgia will find a Georgia DNR website that states categorically that little brown bats are present statewide and this is just not so. Other websites from other state DNRs more accurately map out the range of the little brown as ending in the north Georgia mountains which correlates exactly with what I have observed in the field.
Another thing that I see with bats and our industry that has become somewhat of a pet peeve of mine is the many company websites that go into detail on bats such as "Georgia is home to sixteen species of bats and they are" then go on to cut and paste information from the web without so much as any indicator that the presenter of said information has any field experience in how to identify said species. We really need to get away from just aping what is out there and share our hard won knowledge with the biologists and regulators.
I've said it before and some may disagree but it is my opinion that bat exclusion should be in it's own regulatory category and the price of admission should be not only a working knowledge of best practices ala what Eric Arnold can present in his bat courses but also a working knowledge of bat biology and species identification ala what Justin is actively persuing.
It's really not as hard as it seems to learn to be better able to identify bats, other than most of the myotis species, anyone who has seen the red on black pattern on the tiny pipestrelles will never make the mistake of calling them a big brown or freetail and in most of the US the freetail is completely unmistakable. Again fortunately in my area the NWCO will only see two species inside of structures, the Big Browns and Freetails, but if one understands the habits of the species identification can be made without even having a specimen in hand. For instance in my area a bat colony residing in an open gable vent is undoubtably big browns though an occasional freetail may be found among the Big Browns and if the affected area is a brick or stone chimney combined with a certain odor the determination of Freetails is simple though again the occasional Big Brown may comingle. Even the shape and texture of the guano is a detemining factor. Once an operator is intimately familiar with the common presentation anything different becomes extremely obvious such as the occasional Evening Bat I have found or the one Red Bat found as a solitary in a gable vent during an inspection for other mammalian species. Admittedly in both of those cases instant identification was not made but enough of a difference was observed that I knew they weren't one of my regulars and it sent me to my reference materials for confirmation.
That leads me to another thing I see lacking in many of my contemporaries, a glaring lack of curiousity. Not nessessarily among those on this forum but among the ranks of technicians and others jumping on our bandwagon it is almost assumed that if you do X then Y happens and thats all one needs to know about bats (or whatever else we may encounter). Maybe I'm a little bit off here but I get really curious about the sort of things we see and try to back track it to some sort of rational explanation.
Well, enough rambling, let's hear y'all's thoughts.

This is probably as unscientific as it gets but I had to wait for my wife to finish getting ready anyway, so I thought "What the heck".

I had four bats in the freezer that I was holding for customers in case they changed their mind about testing. They measured 2 1/4, 2 3/8, 3 1/8, and 3 5/8, inches. Unfortunately you can not measure wingspan when they are frozen.

All were removed from inside of homes.

my head hurts

Paul, you may have two each Little and Big but sight unseen I can not make that determination. I would assume the larger two are more than likely Bigs as there are very few that get as large in the eastern US. But you may have juveniles in the smaller two so all bets are off.
Better features to look at rather than size is the shape of the tragus and calcar. The lobe of flesh inside the ear and the spur on the ankle respectively. Other things to look for are the shape and structure of the face and nose, the leaf nosed bats are obvious here. The membranes at the tail, furred not furred or how far down the tail. Fur color, though it can be variable in some species (notably in the Big Browns). Length of fur as in some like the Freetails it is very short or others like the Hoary long.
From all this one can rule out some and narrow the indentification down somewhat.
This one is a start even if only covers few of our species.
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/Plants_Wildlife/bats/bat_key.asp

Well said David,

I knew I'd work with wildlife before I entered the 6th grade. My family encouraged it, I hunted, fished and trapped and absorbed everything available in the pre-internet era.

I look at this portion of my life in the same way, meaning that it simply isn't good enough for me to know how to block bats out of a structure, I want to be able to provide any/all info to a client or potential client on any available information that exists and is known to be accurate. Part of the joy of this for me is that people respond positively to knowledge. We all know that to be true, whether you say you know where to put a trap to catch a coyote, or you are discussing the behavior or biology of flying squirrels, ducks, geese or bats.

Some folks obviously could care less and just want the issue fixed, but it is rare I run across a client for bats that isn't inquisitive and doesn't have a set of myths in their noggin about them.

It is my belief that I serve my business and my life and family best by absorbing and learning everything I can. The more I learn the more avenues open up for us and I've seen this grow exponentially in the last 3 years.

I don't second guess folks who pretty much say "you've got bats" and "here is how I fix that," but I applaud anyone who goes further and becomes a subject matter expert in their city, town, county, state.

Knowledge is power, whether you are a mason, a mechanic, a telemarketer, a soldier, an electrician, a father, a mother, etc.....

It helps to do what you love, then learning is not a dirty word but something that is always taking you further in the understanding of your work and those you serve with your professional services.

- Justin

Justin, you and David and Eric and well, all of you, seem to be very timely with what you have to say in your posts.

I just came back from fishing a dead raccoon out of a window well through the basement window. The customer wanted to know what it died of and since it didn't have any marks on the body and we don't have rabies, I told the customer that it was more than likely distemper. Being able to explain things is truly an advantage. I'm sure that customer appreciates the knowledgeable technician that came to his door.

Now if I just wouldn't have forgotten my flashlight in his basement, I would really be happy.

Very nice example Paul! (oh and if I had a nickel for every light or tool I've left in the attic or crawlspace in the last 3 years I'd be able to stop and retire now!)

I really can not come up with a better way to describe how I approach and identify things around me than what birders and ornithologists have already been doing under the term gestalt. This passage best explains gestalt birding.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TMtB8CG767EC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=gestalt+birding&source=bl&ots=Y1FvtSo8nE&sig=Y0_-UEIOFZToazSPDveMxa0kOFk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z1ARUtSFLISp2gW3kYCoBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=gestalt%20birding&f=false

"The whole is greater than the sum of the parts" is a phrase used to describe both gestalt birding and phsycology. And that is how I approach wildlife as often the only thing we have to work with is scanty descriptions by clients, odors, stains, partial or whole tracks, fecal matter or other evidences short of the whole animal. But for this to work I have to be constantly cogniscent of past experiences and be careful to fit the parts into what is known and not to make suppositions on the unknown. But of course each unknown carried out to a positive conclusion only adds to past experience.
I also highly value this forum and the experiences of each of you as even non personal experiences related to me only add to my knowledge base. Thank you.

Paul - I just need a picture of their face to tell if Big or Little Browns.

What's hard is getting them to let you open their wallet for the pic Dave!

Paul,

The first step for bat identification needs to be a personal assessment of the operator's/technician's abilities. Let's face it, if you're colorblind then the chances of you being able to identify Tri-colored, Hoary, Silver-haired, Eastern Red bat, northern yellow bat, or any species where color can be a determining factor for quick identification is probably out of the question. Additionally, if you can't see certain details clearly such as face shape, ear shape, tragus shape, long or short fur, thumbs, etc. on the bats you'd have a hard time identifying them without having it in hand, a species identification chart, and some "special" equipment.

Taking all this into account I recommend any operator/technician that will be working with bats learn about the bats in the service area. I say service area because the last I knew, bats aren't reading the same "reports" we do and just don't realize that there are rules they are supposed to be following. For instance, Ohio has 10 - 14 bat species (based on who you want to believe) while Indiana has about 15 and Kentucky 16. At a minimum, my knowledge should include the 10 - 14 species found in Ohio but ideally, I should also know the other one or two from adjacent states as I may encounter them based on job site location. Personally, I feel the best way to find out this information is from your State DNR/Wildlife departments. I say State DNR/Wildlife departments as the "14" species of Ohio contains two species that were found twice, and three species that have never been found but are considered by environmental groups to be here because of potential habitat.

This base knowledge should help rule out a lot of species and their potential conflicts especially when you factor in the time of year and number of bats found.

Eric, I wholeheartedly agree that we need to have a working knowledge of all the species in our respective service areas. Not only bats but snakes, turtles, squirrels, rats and everything else. Bats aren't the only species with may encounter that either are on the list or are of concern, barbour's map turtle and indigo snake come to mind here plus a handful of salamanders. But, yes, if you hold yourself out as a bat specialist I think there ought to be some standard do so.
On the color blind thing though, depends on the degree and type of color deficiency. I myself have the common sex linked red/green color deficiency. My form does not allow me to discern certain light wavelengths in the red and green range mostly teal/aqua fushia/mauve and some purples. I can pickup one wavelength such as the blues in teal and to me teal green looks blue as the green component is almost totally missed. Like folks with other handicaps though I am totally aware of my short comings and can pick up on other cues that lead me to double check with other normal sighted persons, for instance teal does not appear the same to me as a pure blue color of the same blue wavelength but more of a "dirty" or "stained" blue as the wavelengths I can not discern are registered as greys. I do see the bold reds and greens but I am sure I do not see them as others do. It is so subtle though that were it not for the occasional corrections in tie color or apparel matching by my wife and loved ones and the confirmation by my opthamologist it could be totally missed.
Enough about that I posted that to try to show how we each need to be observant of our own abilities and look for the subtle cues that define the whole aka the gestalt of what we are seeing.
Now on to your comment that ideally we should be able to get our information and reference material from our DNRs. I'm not sure how your's works but I know all to well how ours works. If it ain't deer, turkey or bass it's a special project and only the cute or litigated get special project status. All others are SOL. When a wildlife biologist directly asked when the state is going to do a population survey of the species he is specifically tasked with replies "it'll never happen" it gives me very little hope for change. When our year end reports are sent in with this curt report "all legal species all legal methods" and are accepted for license and permit renewal it too gives me pause.
I'd like to share the story of one of our "species of concern" to give you an idea of how information is gained here. The Rafinesque's Big Eared Bat has long been listed as a species of concern in this state because it's has been found in this state in the form of a single individual a few times but very little was known about it including it's roosting habits, habitat needs, birthing season or just the basic knowledge of the species. It was assumed to have similar life needs of other big eared bats such as being a tree rooster of swamps but no one ever bothered to confirm this until a UGA graduate student set out to make this bat the basis of his thesis. This young man set out to explore the state until he found some bats to study. He not only succeeded but discovered at least three active maternity roosts and was able to determine that the Rafinesque's required old growth water tupelo swamps for it's reproductive habitat. Specifically huge old trees that had hollowed out to large cavities in standing water. I saw a picture of this researcher standing completely inside one of these "gums". To the best of my knowledge he has been the only one to do any research into this bat and the state has not allocated any resources for the study.
The reason I say this is that it is in my opinion us NWCOs that deal with bats day in and day out that may have the larger share of knowledge than most of our DNRs. It is for this reason that should we ever get special category for bats it's going to have to be us NWCOs that have oversight on how that category is managed.

I believe in this case both David and Eric have very valid points.

The state you live in and the current "non-game" biologists, along with the division chief or head of said wildlife agency play a major role in what or how things get done, and who is allowed to learn enough to be up to speed.

In nearly every state you can count on non game species getting the bad end of the stick as quite simply until the last decade or so, the goal was on raising funds and that happens through license sales for hunting and fishing.

Now WNS unfortunately has been the nasty even that has caused more non game funding to occur but it is still a ridiculously low amount.

Speaking as an ex fed, state and fed agencies hire based on a set of qualifications and then once you get someone in the job they are tasked with any number of things. Rarely do you see a "bat biologist" position, but they do exist.

So generally a non game biologist is going to have to try to know a bit about everything from turtles, to insects, to bats, and so on and so forth...

Then we have funding of that position and where the requests come from. If they don't have special funding or grants for bats specifically, research is only going to happen if a university sends a student as in David's example.

I would still say that it is important to use the local game and fish or dnr as a resource and hopefully a colleague that will allow for sharing of knowledge.

In some states I can tell you they are very much trying to learn more about NWCO's and the more professional nwco's lead that discussion the better for the industry.

I have two amazing non game biologists in this state and talk to them at least once a month even if just to share the type of maternity colonies we see during summer, or report an interesting finding. Same goes for some fed agencies where we've made some friends and private folks that are "bat people."

It is a tragedy that we don't have a balanced dept. in every state and an interest but that usually comes down to funding and politics and always will.

Good points again by both!