Paul, the reason you have more animals of all descriptions in Wisconsin now isn't because there are more predators. It's because of intelligent management practices.

I think it works much better when WE are the predators. I'd much rather have fox than coyotes around here but it's impractical if not impossible to get rid of them now. I've lived my life quite happily without wolves and lions and I don't relish their appearance here.

sqs, I can't help but agree with you on the management practices. Those of you that have read my posts know that compared to most other states, our wildlife laws are extremely liberal. I guess because we are still much of a farming state, we will kill to protect what's ours but we also appreciate wildlife as well.

But we don't goof around either. Last year I believe we killed 117 wolves and since there is no noticeable difference, this year we will kill 251.

P.S. Unlike most of the protectionists who file suit to stop these hunts, I have been fortunate enough to see wolves in the wild.

Sgs that's one good thing you'll like about wolves is they eat the coyotes up and your red fox return .

I like to have a few wolves to harvest each year on the trapline-this keeps them in a balance and adds to the fur cheque.
They definitly do a lot of damage if not managed.

Same thing happening here with mountain lions. But they dont exist according to the DNR. I guess they wont mind us shooting a couple then..... since they must be feral cats right?

ADC, You are correct in your statement about them being forced on the citizens of MT, ID, WY and they were in NM/AZ as well. If you asked the lobbying side that forced them it is because no one would ever allow even a test within any of these states without being legally forced to. Right or wrong, that is how it happened and of course it is a burr under the saddle of many folks and many people have spent the last couple of decades fighting this fight.

To your statement of the 100 dead sheep, the idea of surplus killing is in every predator right down to fox and raccoon and skunk and weasel. I would however think of how you inject the word "sport" as you are using it in a negative connotation and we all know there are many sport hunts that don't end on the dinner table, or in a garment. To say hunting for sport purely isn't right might get some other discussions going.

A fear of humans isn't always an innate response by animals, many wildlife species overcome the idea of living in proximity to or seeing people, obviously we have urban black bear, lion, coyote, bobcat and many others, no reason a wolf can't move through a city when green spaces or canyons or travel ways make it the best route to travel, especially when we are talking dispersing young wolves in search of new territory.

The last section you mention the "crock" that says prey animals need managing. Here again, the hunting community widely uses the premise as does the trapping community that we "manage" the populations. When we buy tags aren't they for deer "management" units, or elk "management units" or furbearer "management" units.

By your logic, we don't have a leg to stand on besides it is tradition to hunt or trap, has nothing to do with managing populations?

Just pointing out, that some of these statements can twist what we do as humans, so I'd think them through in relation to arguing with a non hunter or a pro wolf person, as they will show folks you don't believe in "management."

The idea of the sick and the weak, is an old concept, but honestly, what predator can't bring down the sick or weak easier? Same goes for
us, if there are two of us in walking through an alley, one is pushing a walker and on oxygen, the other is a track star, who is going to be the easier to mug? Criminals choose weaker targets often, including unarmed women, elderly, etc...

This is just a common sense part of nature, does it mean wolves and lions and bear aren't killing healthy individuals too? Of course not, that kind of fairy tail is old and outdated and should be put in a box and forgotten.

SGS - The reason we have more of everything is because mandates to manage all species for the benefit of the public has grown. Frankly what is germane to this forum is that many states didn't have and some still don't have a furbearer biologist. Why? Because those animals aren't as important as game animals and the funding they bring in. The result? No research or little research and funding to help back up much of what we'd like to have about populations of furbearer species that could knock out arguments by groups trying to close trapping because of the potential to eradicate or extirpate a species.

Folks need to realize something that a wise man from Wisconsin came up with back in the 1930's. No it wasn't Wink, but Aldo Leopold the father of modern wildlife management.

This man conducted predator management including wolf eradication in the SW and participated in a ton of various activities in his career that shaped his view.

One phrase that everyone should know is true, whether we like it or not.

“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.”

― Aldo Leopold, Round River: From the Journals of Aldo Leopold

I hope we all realize wolves and other predators helped shape and move ungulates like deer and elk and moose. They were doing this long before we first boot a boot on what is now North America. The richness our ancestors witnessed when they first moved inland was not there by accident, it was shaped by the evolution of these species playing the roles they do in the natural way of things.

Only when it is inconvenient for us as humans do we tend to throw out what we know is logical.

I'll add, that I loved every dog I've ever had and would have defended them to the death to save their existence. The wolf on dog situation isn't a lot different than the urban/suburban coyote issues with folks and dogs out unattended, just that in the country, we expect the dog won't be harmed as it is usually of greater size and coyotes and such won't come in and scrap with it.

No matter how we debate these issues the wolves are here to stay, how many, how they are managed if at all, remains to be seen, but there is no way at this juncture legally they will ever be removed again. Many will stay as they are against the wolf, other have and will continue to adapt to living in a landscape such as this one. More and more ranchers are again employing riders to move cattle which they find produces better grazing lands, healthier cattle, healthier riparian areas and ultimately less predation by any predator. This has taken time, but is now more commonplace as those who graze large herds move to mimicking the movement of bison, elk and others that were in better balance with the native vegetation.

My .10 for the morning...

HD give it few years until they are down there. Then you can talk. Until then just another propaganda fed expert.

Wolves sport killing is a very common concept. Just like a cat. Catch is these are the only animals we have that can and have done such damage. They don't quit after playing with one or two. The management point you are trying to raise misses the entire point. They didn't need management because WE were doing it. Without wiping out everything else to boot.
While doing your research Google the elk population in Yellowstone since the introduction down there.
As I have said before this is not the wild west. What used to be a massive sea of wild lands is now a few ponds. Now we have Parana in them.
The sick and week concept applies to food hunting. Sure they will kill the sick and weak. Especially newborn calves and heavily pregnant cow elk. Then they move on the rest.

If you really want to do your homework you will find that the wolves and elk aren't even native in a lot of areas. When my family homesteaded. There was almost No big game in the area. Just a few mule deer. The Lewis and Clark party noted the same thing in their journals. Elk are not a mountain animal. They were introduced to my area by train car in the 1920s.

Wolves were never planted in Montana. Though the fish and game has a tendency to call people liars. (Its just a Coyote but don't shoot it). We did have some remnant populations that were doing fine and not really bothering anybody. Though I don't buy into the argument of the introduced wolves being a different species. They were migrating down here slowly from Canada anyway
But after they were introduced in Yellowstone and other areas they spread like a disease. When you have had your hunting and way of life ruined you can talk. When you walk up to a trap where you had a $1,100 bobcat only to find blood and shredded hide. Because some propaganda fed flatland expert decided to restore the "Natural order". I used to spend a week in September every year hunting where my family has hunted for three generations. Now they give out 5 permits. Takes a miracle to draw one and then another act of God to actually see an elk there.

I hear what you are saying ADC, and we do actually have wolves here in NM, though isolated in the Gila NF region.

I can easily argue either side, and I think my posts reflect that, can I see where homesteaders wanted them gone and hunters and ranchers would
still prefer it and why? Sure I can.

Yellowstone wasn't something I was going to bring up, but honestly that place has more folks studying every critter under the sun than most states or regions ever accomplish. While the massive elk herds dropped in number, most anyone looking at the biology would agree this is a positive thing.

Is it for hunters? Nope, not going to be, is it for trappers or houndsmen? Nope, likely not going to be.

However the proof is in the pudding and the research shows that where elk used to camp out on drainages and hammer them into the ground the way you would see old school cattle practices do, they now are restoring these wetland areas, more species thrive everything from bugs to birds and mammals.

The bottom line is that you and I could agree on many points, my posts are meant to drive thought, not declare a winner or fight it out till I win.

I've lived on farm, worked on dozens of ranches and conducted predator management and trapping operations. Does that mean I can't see outside the box?

Nope, and that is usually what gets me on someones bad side. The box is clear to most folks and they like to live in it. Its a known commodity, their culture, tradition and economics are all tied in to it. Mine aren't, I don't lose a dollar if guy loses a bobcat out of a trap to a wolf, likewise I don't lose money if someone loses a calf.

However, that doesn't make me less right or more right, just means my economics aren't tied in to the local wolf population the way yourself and others are.

I do know the history of elk and wolves and many other species, I used to say the same thing to folks in the Willamette Valley in Oregon who said, "we are taking land away from the coyotes."

My answer was a polite, "No, I'm sorry, but in the valley historically coyotes didn't exist, before folks came through, cut down trees and opened things up and removed some of the larger predators."

I'm sure you realize that in this forum you are going to be speaking for the majority. While many folks don't live where wolves exist, many support the view you provide.

I could just leave it at that and not post when I see these threads, but honestly there are many aspects to this debate and I don't see a reason to not present them.

You won't find the folks making political decisions about wolves here on this forum, so if you believe my "propaganda" is going to sway some folks, it won't, either folks feel one way or they feel the other, same goes for just about anything else in life, from cradle to grave.



(I should also add ADC that if you know I came from USDA/WS you would know where my expertise would lie, and it wouldn't be in breeding wolves or their propaganda)

My point on The Yellowstone elk herd had nothing to do with a healthy number of elk. They could have been controlled by hunting. But that the wolves do have a major impact.

"(I should also add ADC that if you know I came from USDA/WS you would know where my expertise would lie, and it wouldn't be in breeding wolves or their propaganda)"
Oh that explains plenty.
I can also tell you that many of the ranchers who have ad to deal with the USDA on wolves till not allow them back on their property.


Think I am gonna check out of this thread. After 20 years of arguing with book experts that have never seen a wolf in the wild. It gets to be old and highly repetitive.

I don't need a book and a college signed piece of toilet paper to tell me what I have seen and lived through. Give it a few years for the wolves to get down there.

Thanks ADC, mentioning what you feel any wildlife biologist who attended college is worth, tells me where you are as well.

If my college degree was the only thing propping up my argument it will be a cold day in ....

Plain and simple I've been on the ground and don't need you or anyone to qualify what I know and don't know.

I never said what you stated wasn't true. I simply said there is more to it than just how one side or the other sees it.
I understand fully the contentious nature of wolves and predators in the west. I choose to know this issue from all sides.

My apologies for debating the issue too hard, I'll bow out so this can change over to a one sided wolf rant.

Have a good one,

Justin

Mike flick we have mounton loins in Michigan and even the DNR will tell you so but there not breeding in Michigan the DNR is saying guess its starts a bunch of crap when you get a rare animal making baby's in your state . The cougers don't hang around houses and eat up all the dogs and attack peoples horses and stalking kids . It's been witnessed over and over people seeing wolves sizing up kids . We are also trying to bring the moose back so wolf mangement is a good thing . Wolf management will also save the wolves from being shot off if this vote coming up to protect wolves gets passed it will devalue the wolf and they will be shot off surely . If this vote goes threw people will not even be able to get Michigan damage control permits what then SSS will take over . Wolves have a place here in Michigan if they have value a plus side .

I can't believe that there are guys out there that criticize T-Man for their arguments. This back-and-forth between Justin and ADC is a classic.

I am ADCofWMt through and through. I have lived it, therefore it is true! ( Well, except for the exceptions )

My son is Justin through and through. While I have always expected to amaze my son with my vast knowledge of all things wild, it is he that amazes me much more often.

If we ever get to a situation where nearly everyone agrees on nearly every subject, then and only then, will T-Man ADC become useless.

Paul should have fun with this

A 16-year-old boy who fought off a rare apparent wolf attack in northern Minnesota says he won't be sleeping outside anytime soon.
Noah Graham of Solway was camping on Lake Winnibigoshish with five friends last weekend. He told The Pioneer of Bemidji that he was talking with his girlfriend just before the animal chomped the back of his head early Saturday.
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources officials think it's the first documented serious-injury wolf attack on a human in Minnesota. 
SUMMARY
Graham's girlfriend fled to her Jeep, while two other members of the camping party slept through all the screaming, kicking and fighting, he said.
The paper points out that wolf attacks are rare. There have been two fatal wolf attacks in North America in the past decades, one in north Canada and the other in Alaska.
As of Tuesday, the DNR was waiting for DNA test results to confirm whether a wolf trapped and killed in the same campground early Monday is the animal that attacked Graham, and for results on whether it had rabies.
"After I got up, I was kicking at it and screaming at it and it wouldn't leave"
- Noah Graham
Despite a 4-inch gash on his scalp, 17 staples to close the wound and "the worst pain of his life," Graham didn't seem fazed Monday by his encounter, nor the needle that delivered a rabies shot following the attack.
"I had to reach behind me and jerk my head out of its mouth," Graham recalled. "After I got up, I was kicking at it and screaming at it and it wouldn't leave. But then after a while I got it to run away."
The 75-pound male wolf killed Monday had a jaw deformity that prevented its upper and lower teeth from lining up and likely had to scavenge because it wouldn't have been able to kill large prey, said Tom Provost, regional manager for the DNR's enforcement division in Grand Rapids.
Graham said the attack came without warning.
"There was no sound at all. Didn't hear it. It was just all of a sudden there," he said.
Graham's girlfriend fled to her Jeep, while two other members of the camping party slept through all the screaming, kicking and fighting, he said.
Earlier Friday evening, an animal that several campers said was a wolf caused trouble in the West Winnie Campground, which is operated by the U.S. Forest Service.
The animal tore through at least two tents, puncturing an air mattress in one.
After Graham was attacked, officials from the Forest Service, DNR and Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe tried unsuccessfully to capture a wolf near the scene.
Later, a wolf approached a DNR officer a quarter-mile away. The officer fired at the wolf, but missed, and the wolf ran off.
U.S. Department of Agriculture trappers eventually caught the wolf that was destroyed Monday.
The Associated Press contributed to this report


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/27/16-.../#ixzz2dIRBMIHV

That article agrees with just about everything that I have been taught about the canine predators. The wolf with the deformed jaw is much like the majority of coyotes that have been trapped in areas of severe pet depredation.

Nearly every wolf or coyote that causes trouble has either had an external or internal problem that causes them to be unable to feed itself on normal prey.

Thanks for that article Pesky. I would be shocked if the wolf they caught was not the culprit.

P.S. Unlike what a lot of people would like you to believe, canines ( especially wolves ) have been photographed wounding and killing caribou just for the fun of it. And National Geographics magazine photographers took some great pictures of the wolves in action.

This did not sit very well with those protectionists that claim, and I quote, "man is the only animal that kills for sport".

The wolf was 75 pounds and missing a K9 tooth busted jaw makes me think got kicked by a moose or hit by a car . The animal still tore threw two tents grabed that kid by the head . I'm hearing story's now there dragging bears out of there dens in the winter time eating the bears not sure if there's any truth to that or not

Justin, the reason we have more animals is because of the increased enforcement of hunting seasons and bag limits, which I referred to as "intelligent management practices" above.

I really don't see your point but you can rest assured that we have a furbearer biologist here in NH and have had for decades.

You sure have a way of going on for paragraphs without saying much of relevance.

The long and short of my take on the subject is that in wildlife/human conflicts, humans win. If old Aldo was too much the fool to understand that there will not be wolves in with the sheep, it's not my problem.

We need more of this. Not that people getting attacked makes me smile, But it will make the YUPPIES of this country realize that wild animals can be dangerous,not like a boogey man. They are out there, and they are real. It could take the edge off of what our buddy Walt Dizney did for us and the fur industry.

Mike, while I agree with you absolutely wholeheartedly, I recall back in Californicate, ( Maybe even while you were there ) that a coyote killed a kid and half the lunatics sided with the coyote. I think there message was something along the line of; "We have lots of kids but not a lot of coyotes."

That california death tied in to a bunch of urban feeders. I've looked at a bunch in the last few months and nearly always where the biggest problems are happening is folks thinking they need to feed the wildlife including coyotes with pups in order for them to survive. We do desperately need more wildlife education in schools and everywhere possible so folks can at least help prevent a good portion of the issues that arise.

Heck with education. Most of those soft headed idiots are fully indoctrinated by the age of five. Start locking them up and setting a few examples and we might knock some sense back into folk.