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Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid #3966754
08/26/13 11:51 PM
08/26/13 11:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
south east michigan
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Minnesota DNR Investigating Wolf Attack



ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) - The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources says it's investigating a rare apparent wolf attack on a teenager.

The DNR says it happened early Saturday morning at the West Winnie Campground on Lake Winnibigoshish in north-central Minnesota.

It says the 16-year-old boy suffered multiple puncture wounds and a laceration on his head about 4 inches long. The wolf ran into the woods after the boy kicked it.

After receiving local first aid, the boy was taken to a Bemidji hospital. The wound required multiple staples to close, but was not life-threatening.

The DNR says a serious injury or fatal attack on a human had never been documented in Minnesota before. The only two recorded wolf attack fatalities in North America in the last decade were in northern Canada and Alaska.

 


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3966834
08/27/13 01:18 AM
08/27/13 01:18 AM
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Western Montana
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I don't find it surprising. I have had them come in close to my camp before and have had them follow me. The ones I have seen close showed no fear. They don't have any reason to.
Having a dog with you would really boost the chance of a problem. Even on a leash.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967375
08/27/13 11:40 AM
08/27/13 11:40 AM
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While I understand the folks who believe wolves shouldn't be on the landscape, I bet if you ask the DNR you'd find plenty of black bear attacks during the last few decades in MN. Any wildlife species can become aggressive, or may take a pot shot if it is hungry or sick etc... I realize the bigger they are the more likely they may cause a fatal wound or kill someone, but everyone who lives in large carnivore country and I'm including coyote, black bear, wolf, mountain lion, brown bear, etc.. should know and understand they are entering an area where there could be trouble.

We all know even fox and bobcats and raccoon can attack people in very serious ways when cornered, or when sick or starving. When I first moved here the first fatal attack by a mountain lion occurred. The individual was reported for chumming critters including fox and bobcat during a rabies epidemic. He lived by himself in the deep woods and bathed naked in a remote pond area. Lion killed him, no policy changes required except maybe laws to prevent folks from feeding wildlife.

The population size of wolves in the upper midwest has been growing for a long time but the numbers have been high enough that this could have happened a long time ago. We've had multiple non fatal attacks of black bear and mountain lion here in NM and folks have cried out for change in policy, but in reality these are things that happen in areas where people are hiking, camping or living in remote country where you should know you live around these animals. This doesn't prevent the attacks from occuring, but being more vigilant can stop many of these cases from occurring.

Disclaimer, this kid sounds like he didn't have a chance to see it coming, and I'm not saying human victims of such attacks are not intelligent folks who have the right to camp, hike or live in such country.

Just saying, 1 attack doesn't mean the floodgate is opening and the wolves are taking over the world.

Justin

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967397
08/27/13 11:49 AM
08/27/13 11:49 AM
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Western Montana
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Its really just more than about 1 attack. They have harassed a lot of people here. And have effected my freezer big time.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967410
08/27/13 11:54 AM
08/27/13 11:54 AM
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NM
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ADC, Know lots of big game guides and subsistence hunters from western states, understand the issue and complaint.
Just saying the lightning bolt of an attack is statistically not relevant, except to that individual and his family. I have
empathy for him and don't think twice about the DNR heading out to remove and test that animal, just not a sign that
the "critters is risin up!!" if you know what I mean.

smile

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967483
08/27/13 12:31 PM
08/27/13 12:31 PM
Joined: May 2013
Western Montana
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True, I remember some Yotes killing a woman in Canada about a year ago. Im not overly worried of them when in the back country. Though they may come out on the wrong end of a lethal encounter if they do bother me, or my dog.

Now I wouldn't be too surprised to hear of encounters becoming more common. With the game depleted in the high country they are coming down closer to towns here. Had one hit on the highway a couple weeks ago here. In a very populated area.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967903
08/27/13 03:58 PM
08/27/13 03:58 PM
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Great analogy HDWILDIFE with your "Statistical" lightening bolt!!

The wolves now have one lightening bolt on the scoreboard.

I think it is pretty neat we seen their introduction in our time. Gray and RED Wolves !!
I guess we call this an adjustment period for man & beast alike.

Just a guess. That wolf probably was fed by humans at some point.
There must of been a reason not to fear this person or possibly other persons.

Beside sickness what other reasons would of wolve not fear and attack us?


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967904
08/27/13 04:01 PM
08/27/13 04:01 PM
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Georgia
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Justin, I can see your point of view and am the last to declare war on wildlife but I am still firmly of the mindset of controlling their numbers. I'm glad to have them back in some numbers but it really irritates me that the non outdoor public even has a say in the matter. As far as I'm concerned unless you live on the landscape with the predators then you have no say in their control.
Not that this is to disenfranchise anyone but the city folks and leftists ought to stick to the cities and leave well enough alone.


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3967967
08/27/13 04:33 PM
08/27/13 04:33 PM
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NM
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David,

I agree wholeheartedly that the folks in the city shouldn't have sole say in what those in the country live with. It is a problem and a big one, just checked in for a moment, gotta run, but just wanted to say, I do agree with you on that point and have argued the NIMBY attitude sucks in this country.

Folks who are wildlife lovers and advocates can become killers overnight, we all know that doing this business, see it everyday, I love wildlife but now this squirrel is in my walls when I was enjoying feeding him, can we kill it with some sort of poison or trap?

Or, to this thread more, okay, so lets release wolves in the suburbs and let you folks who believe those in the country should live with them.

Doesn't go over well, and of course they love to argue that there isn't enough good habitat or prey, etc...

Not.In.My.Back.Yard.

smile

Gotta love it!

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968097
08/27/13 05:21 PM
08/27/13 05:21 PM
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I think ADC and I are the only regulars on here from wolf country so we have a vested interest in them. This won't be popular but I'm a firm believer in
S-S-S as far as land owners are concerned, they are protecting their property, livestock, and should be allowed to use any means necessary. For ten years the ranchers have asked me what to do about them, I always say if it was my cattle I would practice S-x-S, shoot and shut up forget the shovel it leaves too much evidence. I took the required Montana wolf trapping class two weeks ago but don't expect to ever use it since the nearest wolves to me are about 70 miles southwest of here and would require too much winter back country travel to check traps. I have seen one wolf 30 miles east of Billings while I was out coyote huntin', he was chasing the same coyote I was. I doubt the wolf ever becomes a money maker for us ADC guys for two reasons, the expense of all that travel and there is a five wolf limit per person.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968113
08/27/13 05:25 PM
08/27/13 05:25 PM
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How many deer hunters here have watched a wolf take a deer, after they shot it. I stuck a doe once, the wolf must have been following it. I was a little wierded out about getting down out of my tree, but hey, there's more deer where that one came from right.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968121
08/27/13 05:28 PM
08/27/13 05:28 PM
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This is a subject that I really have trouble with. Why did my Wisconsin ancestors hunt the wolf to extinction? Because nobody cared. During the majority of my life, Wisconsin was completely wolfless. Who cared? Certainly not the deer, elk, or coyote. And the farmers and dog owners never had much of a problem with the rest of Wisconsin's predators.

So, what is the only good thing that the gray wolf accomplished in Wisconsin? They kill coyotes. who actually kill more people than wolves!

And speaking of coyotes, we never ever had them either. So what is the only good thing that a coyote does? They eat feral cats.

In conclusion, if we got rid of the lunatics that threw their cats out of the car window, we would have no reason for two other predators. So who is going to take the place of all these predators?..... the same predators we have always had; you and me behind the steering wheel.

Now those of you ( Justin? ) that feel that these predators have their place, let's hear it. I have lived over half my life with none of them and I wouldn't mind living without them again.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968157
08/27/13 05:43 PM
08/27/13 05:43 PM
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NM
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Paul, You always make me smile smile

Folks like yourself and others, have a common sense view of things that I can't tell you is wrong, because it is a question of philosophy, theory and human perception and socio factors.

Thus, though I can tell you biologically where predators play a role (not that everyone on here doesn't know the role they play, even those against wolves or predators, do understand biologically the role they serve in the ecosystem.

However, should I start spouting too much about ecosystems, I'll likely end up with my bi-monthly label of anti or some such.

Facts are that I come from an outfit that has and does continue to do wolf removal. I myself have spent plenty of time on coyote/depredation situations and know full and well what wolves can do to livestock.

If we were to think though Wink about the history of predators and predator removal in the country, we would find folks that didn't know 1/2 of what they know now about ecology and balance and how these things work.

The facts exist that elk for example in absence of large predators absolutely degrade wetland and riparian areas through overgrazing. Now plenty of folks would say, no worries, just increase the tags right?

Nope, not that simple and as much as I support anyone protecting, land, life, livestock, there are more and more people who are finding the ability to work within the system and still make a living, this includes, bear, coyote, lion, wolf.

When I was in UT the guy we received our study sheep herds (300 lamb/ewe pairs times 2) that we ran on the coyote study, had migrant herders that lived in trailers. His rule was if a lion hit the sheep, the herder was to move the sheep to another canyon or grazing unit. Why?

Was he a radical animal loving anti?

Nope, simple economics, it was cheaper for him to move the sheep to another unit away from the killing. Can you always do this or should you have to? Nope, but the options exist.

I know Wink that you also see no use for coyotes and I just simply can't wrap my mind around that. I've trapped coyotes, called and shot them and worked to provide exclusion for them in urban and rural farms. However the call of a coyote is a special thing to me and always will be. That is one species that surpasses nearly all others in adaptability and raw ability to learn and evade and so forth.

I know guys who from birth nearly have killed coyotes for a living and many say, when retiring not seeing another would be just fine, but I know too many trappers on this forum who wouldn't imagine a field or farm where coyotes do not exist (unless they like to trap red fox of course!).

When folks were living in shacks or dugouts worrying about their scalp, or struggling through the dust bowl later on, I imagine the idea of predators wasn't high on anyones list.

But my final thought and statement would be, in the natural world, the predators have a role and they serve it well.

What isn't always served is balance, because as in the case of wolves, those who wanted them brought back, also now sue to keep them from being harvested even though goals for populations have long since been met in the major recovery areas.

Okay, fire away! smile

PS - I have known of SSS since I was a young kid, however in the day and age of tracking devices that are implanted and can still be radio tracked by plane and vehicle....I bet you will see far more arrests for such in the coming decade as batteries, implants and technology increase.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968167
08/27/13 05:46 PM
08/27/13 05:46 PM
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I forgot about the MN, WI and MI guys, you too have wolves, but I think our situation is a little different, correct me if I'm wrong. I hear and read countless stories of wolf predation on livestock out here in the West but I never seem to hear anything about it back East, does it happen often? As far as big game goes we've all lost the bulk of our elk and moose due to wolves.

Justin, a high power projectile passes through so with no digging who's gonna know?

Last edited by DAVE SALYS-CWCP; 08/27/13 05:48 PM.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968169
08/27/13 05:47 PM
08/27/13 05:47 PM
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I should have added to the elk portion of that post, I know a ton of folks who are overrun by deer and elk on alfalfa and other crops. Now do they want wolves? Nope not usually, but fencing and programs to deter or exclude these critters is desperately needed throughout the midwest and western states where these large herds exist.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968223
08/27/13 06:09 PM
08/27/13 06:09 PM
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Good point about the bullets dave, thats probably where the third S comes in to play. Many folks can't do that one.

The upper midwest does indeed have wolf depredation issues. Dairy cattle on pasture, beef cows, sheep etc... Lots of the same issue as out west with the exception that often the free range western style management means you don't know you had a kill till many things have been on the scene, or when you do your roundup to move to the next pasture and realize your missing 30 head.

I think too Dave, the reference to losing the elk and moose is an example of not allowing harvest or a reasonable balance of take on predators after reintroduction. Will guarantee there is a model that shows exactly how many wolves can be sustained without sucking down the native ungulates beyond allowance.

Your point though goes to my reference to social and philosophical and other factors.

If you guide elk hunts or moose hunts or subsist on it, then predators are simple competition and no one desires that!

smile



Last edited by HD_Wildlife; 08/27/13 06:12 PM.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968257
08/27/13 06:25 PM
08/27/13 06:25 PM
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Thank God for people like Justin. It's way easier to agree with me than it is to write an intelligent post that might tread on my delicate sensibilities. I have to admit that I am a special case. I will also begrudgingly admit that although we now have predators that we have never had before, ( including black bear in southern Wisconsin ) we also have a lot more of everything else. There is no doubt in my mind that we may have more of every native non-predator wildlife in Wisconsin than we have ever had. I feel that I am very fortunate to have been able to enjoy this incredibly abundant amount wildlife.

A wise man once said, "I have never learned a single thing from someone that agreed with me." ( Which means that I owe nearly all my intelligence to my lovely bride )

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968300
08/27/13 06:51 PM
08/27/13 06:51 PM
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NM
Paul,

One thing I count on with you is that your always open to a good debate and provide good humor. I have been fortunate to be exposed to a ton of wildlife issues throughout my lifetime from the farm as a kid, to where I am now and all things in between. I have always enjoyed being able to engage in a variety of situations and discussions and I couldn't agree more about learning from someone that doesn't agree with you. I spend an inordinate amount of time listening to some wild things being said by folks and more often than not I at least learn where they develop their opinion and if I am looking to make something part of my business, I learn aspects I need to in order to ultimately sell or be involved as a company.

(Oh and LOL about the wife!) smile

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968342
08/27/13 07:09 PM
08/27/13 07:09 PM
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south east michigan
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Wolves are moving south a great lakes region wolf was DNA confirmed killed in ky last year . We get them in southern mi as well . No reason there not nation wide over the next 20 years


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968491
08/27/13 08:03 PM
08/27/13 08:03 PM
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Western Montana
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Its very simple really. I am all for wolves. They should be in all the zoos. Outside of a zoo the only good wolf is a dead wolf. We never wanted the wolves here. They were shoved down our throats whether we liked it or not. This is not the wild west. We don't have massive wilderness lands anymore and we cannot support a bunch of killing machines. 10 years ago the Fish and Game claimed we had too many elk in my hunting district. Now you have a better chance getting hit by lightning than getting an elk there.
One of the last elk we got had a pack of wolves ripping her apart before we could get to her. She was lung shot at less then 100 yards. They ripped her open and allowed her to drag her own intestines a short distance before the bullet finely finished its job.
A few years ago two wolves got into a herd of sheep and killed the entire herd. 100 animals. It is all publicly documented. None of the sheep were fed on. Purely a kill for sport.
Two friends have killed four wolves. All within view of their house one less than 100 feet from their front door. It was eating one of their sheep when he shot it. This was within 2 miles of a city.
Cat hunters are afraid to turn their dogs loose now, as the dogs barking will draw in any wolves in the area. Several packs of dogs have been wiped out.

Two years ago. In less than two weeks in the Bitterroot valley. 10 dogs were killed in their own yards. One on a front porch. Around the same time a Sula rancher in another area stepped out of his front door and shot two wolves out of pack that were attacking his stock dogs. This was within 20 feet of his front door.

They have no fear of humans. They have no reason to fear us. And with the population growing we are only going to see more and more conflicts.

Whoever came up with that crock about prey animal management never bother to check if they needed managed. Probably the same people who claim they only take the sick and week.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968577
08/27/13 08:42 PM
08/27/13 08:42 PM
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NH
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Paul, the reason you have more animals of all descriptions in Wisconsin now isn't because there are more predators. It's because of intelligent management practices.

I think it works much better when WE are the predators. I'd much rather have fox than coyotes around here but it's impractical if not impossible to get rid of them now. I've lived my life quite happily without wolves and lions and I don't relish their appearance here.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3968638
08/27/13 09:01 PM
08/27/13 09:01 PM
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mequon, wisconsin
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sqs, I can't help but agree with you on the management practices. Those of you that have read my posts know that compared to most other states, our wildlife laws are extremely liberal. I guess because we are still much of a farming state, we will kill to protect what's ours but we also appreciate wildlife as well.

But we don't goof around either. Last year I believe we killed 117 wolves and since there is no noticeable difference, this year we will kill 251.

P.S. Unlike most of the protectionists who file suit to stop these hunts, I have been fortunate enough to see wolves in the wild.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969179
08/28/13 12:00 AM
08/28/13 12:00 AM
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south east michigan
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Sgs that's one good thing you'll like about wolves is they eat the coyotes up and your red fox return .


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969233
08/28/13 12:31 AM
08/28/13 12:31 AM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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I like to have a few wolves to harvest each year on the trapline-this keeps them in a balance and adds to the fur cheque.
They definitly do a lot of damage if not managed.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969521
08/28/13 09:26 AM
08/28/13 09:26 AM
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Same thing happening here with mountain lions. But they dont exist according to the DNR. I guess they wont mind us shooting a couple then..... since they must be feral cats right?

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: ADCofWMt] #3969681
08/28/13 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: ADCofWMt
They were shoved down our throats whether we liked it or not.

A few years ago two wolves got into a herd of sheep and killed the entire herd. 100 animals. It is all publicly documented. None of the sheep were fed on.

Purely a kill for sport.

They have no fear of humans. They have no reason to fear us. And with the population growing we are only going to see more and more conflicts.

Whoever came up with that crock about prey animal management never bother to check if they needed managed. Probably the same people who claim they only take the sick and week.


ADC, You are correct in your statement about them being forced on the citizens of MT, ID, WY and they were in NM/AZ as well. If you asked the lobbying side that forced them it is because no one would ever allow even a test within any of these states without being legally forced to. Right or wrong, that is how it happened and of course it is a burr under the saddle of many folks and many people have spent the last couple of decades fighting this fight.

To your statement of the 100 dead sheep, the idea of surplus killing is in every predator right down to fox and raccoon and skunk and weasel. I would however think of how you inject the word "sport" as you are using it in a negative connotation and we all know there are many sport hunts that don't end on the dinner table, or in a garment. To say hunting for sport purely isn't right might get some other discussions going.

A fear of humans isn't always an innate response by animals, many wildlife species overcome the idea of living in proximity to or seeing people, obviously we have urban black bear, lion, coyote, bobcat and many others, no reason a wolf can't move through a city when green spaces or canyons or travel ways make it the best route to travel, especially when we are talking dispersing young wolves in search of new territory.

The last section you mention the "crock" that says prey animals need managing. Here again, the hunting community widely uses the premise as does the trapping community that we "manage" the populations. When we buy tags aren't they for deer "management" units, or elk "management units" or furbearer "management" units.

By your logic, we don't have a leg to stand on besides it is tradition to hunt or trap, has nothing to do with managing populations?

Just pointing out, that some of these statements can twist what we do as humans, so I'd think them through in relation to arguing with a non hunter or a pro wolf person, as they will show folks you don't believe in "management."

The idea of the sick and the weak, is an old concept, but honestly, what predator can't bring down the sick or weak easier? Same goes for
us, if there are two of us in walking through an alley, one is pushing a walker and on oxygen, the other is a track star, who is going to be the easier to mug? Criminals choose weaker targets often, including unarmed women, elderly, etc...

This is just a common sense part of nature, does it mean wolves and lions and bear aren't killing healthy individuals too? Of course not, that kind of fairy tail is old and outdated and should be put in a box and forgotten.

SGS - The reason we have more of everything is because mandates to manage all species for the benefit of the public has grown. Frankly what is germane to this forum is that many states didn't have and some still don't have a furbearer biologist. Why? Because those animals aren't as important as game animals and the funding they bring in. The result? No research or little research and funding to help back up much of what we'd like to have about populations of furbearer species that could knock out arguments by groups trying to close trapping because of the potential to eradicate or extirpate a species.

Folks need to realize something that a wise man from Wisconsin came up with back in the 1930's. No it wasn't Wink, but Aldo Leopold the father of modern wildlife management.

This man conducted predator management including wolf eradication in the SW and participated in a ton of various activities in his career that shaped his view.

One phrase that everyone should know is true, whether we like it or not.

“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.”

― Aldo Leopold, Round River: From the Journals of Aldo Leopold

I hope we all realize wolves and other predators helped shape and move ungulates like deer and elk and moose. They were doing this long before we first boot a boot on what is now North America. The richness our ancestors witnessed when they first moved inland was not there by accident, it was shaped by the evolution of these species playing the roles they do in the natural way of things.

Only when it is inconvenient for us as humans do we tend to throw out what we know is logical.

I'll add, that I loved every dog I've ever had and would have defended them to the death to save their existence. The wolf on dog situation isn't a lot different than the urban/suburban coyote issues with folks and dogs out unattended, just that in the country, we expect the dog won't be harmed as it is usually of greater size and coyotes and such won't come in and scrap with it.

No matter how we debate these issues the wolves are here to stay, how many, how they are managed if at all, remains to be seen, but there is no way at this juncture legally they will ever be removed again. Many will stay as they are against the wolf, other have and will continue to adapt to living in a landscape such as this one. More and more ranchers are again employing riders to move cattle which they find produces better grazing lands, healthier cattle, healthier riparian areas and ultimately less predation by any predator. This has taken time, but is now more commonplace as those who graze large herds move to mimicking the movement of bison, elk and others that were in better balance with the native vegetation.

My .10 for the morning...

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969761
08/28/13 12:16 PM
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HD give it few years until they are down there. Then you can talk. Until then just another propaganda fed expert.

Wolves sport killing is a very common concept. Just like a cat. Catch is these are the only animals we have that can and have done such damage. They don't quit after playing with one or two. The management point you are trying to raise misses the entire point. They didn't need management because WE were doing it. Without wiping out everything else to boot.
While doing your research Google the elk population in Yellowstone since the introduction down there.
As I have said before this is not the wild west. What used to be a massive sea of wild lands is now a few ponds. Now we have Parana in them.
The sick and week concept applies to food hunting. Sure they will kill the sick and weak. Especially newborn calves and heavily pregnant cow elk. Then they move on the rest.

If you really want to do your homework you will find that the wolves and elk aren't even native in a lot of areas. When my family homesteaded. There was almost No big game in the area. Just a few mule deer. The Lewis and Clark party noted the same thing in their journals. Elk are not a mountain animal. They were introduced to my area by train car in the 1920s.

Wolves were never planted in Montana. Though the fish and game has a tendency to call people liars. (Its just a Coyote but don't shoot it). We did have some remnant populations that were doing fine and not really bothering anybody. Though I don't buy into the argument of the introduced wolves being a different species. They were migrating down here slowly from Canada anyway
But after they were introduced in Yellowstone and other areas they spread like a disease. When you have had your hunting and way of life ruined you can talk. When you walk up to a trap where you had a $1,100 bobcat only to find blood and shredded hide. Because some propaganda fed flatland expert decided to restore the "Natural order". I used to spend a week in September every year hunting where my family has hunted for three generations. Now they give out 5 permits. Takes a miracle to draw one and then another act of God to actually see an elk there.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969789
08/28/13 12:33 PM
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I hear what you are saying ADC, and we do actually have wolves here in NM, though isolated in the Gila NF region.

I can easily argue either side, and I think my posts reflect that, can I see where homesteaders wanted them gone and hunters and ranchers would
still prefer it and why? Sure I can.

Yellowstone wasn't something I was going to bring up, but honestly that place has more folks studying every critter under the sun than most states or regions ever accomplish. While the massive elk herds dropped in number, most anyone looking at the biology would agree this is a positive thing.

Is it for hunters? Nope, not going to be, is it for trappers or houndsmen? Nope, likely not going to be.

However the proof is in the pudding and the research shows that where elk used to camp out on drainages and hammer them into the ground the way you would see old school cattle practices do, they now are restoring these wetland areas, more species thrive everything from bugs to birds and mammals.

The bottom line is that you and I could agree on many points, my posts are meant to drive thought, not declare a winner or fight it out till I win.

I've lived on farm, worked on dozens of ranches and conducted predator management and trapping operations. Does that mean I can't see outside the box?

Nope, and that is usually what gets me on someones bad side. The box is clear to most folks and they like to live in it. Its a known commodity, their culture, tradition and economics are all tied in to it. Mine aren't, I don't lose a dollar if guy loses a bobcat out of a trap to a wolf, likewise I don't lose money if someone loses a calf.

However, that doesn't make me less right or more right, just means my economics aren't tied in to the local wolf population the way yourself and others are.

I do know the history of elk and wolves and many other species, I used to say the same thing to folks in the Willamette Valley in Oregon who said, "we are taking land away from the coyotes."

My answer was a polite, "No, I'm sorry, but in the valley historically coyotes didn't exist, before folks came through, cut down trees and opened things up and removed some of the larger predators."

I'm sure you realize that in this forum you are going to be speaking for the majority. While many folks don't live where wolves exist, many support the view you provide.

I could just leave it at that and not post when I see these threads, but honestly there are many aspects to this debate and I don't see a reason to not present them.

You won't find the folks making political decisions about wolves here on this forum, so if you believe my "propaganda" is going to sway some folks, it won't, either folks feel one way or they feel the other, same goes for just about anything else in life, from cradle to grave.

smile

(I should also add ADC that if you know I came from USDA/WS you would know where my expertise would lie, and it wouldn't be in breeding wolves or their propaganda)

Last edited by HD_Wildlife; 08/28/13 12:38 PM.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969843
08/28/13 01:18 PM
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My point on The Yellowstone elk herd had nothing to do with a healthy number of elk. They could have been controlled by hunting. But that the wolves do have a major impact.

"(I should also add ADC that if you know I came from USDA/WS you would know where my expertise would lie, and it wouldn't be in breeding wolves or their propaganda)"
Oh that explains plenty.
I can also tell you that many of the ranchers who have ad to deal with the USDA on wolves till not allow them back on their property.


Think I am gonna check out of this thread. After 20 years of arguing with book experts that have never seen a wolf in the wild. It gets to be old and highly repetitive.

I don't need a book and a college signed piece of toilet paper to tell me what I have seen and lived through. Give it a few years for the wolves to get down there.


Just because something is legal doesn't make it smart.
Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969850
08/28/13 01:23 PM
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Thanks ADC, mentioning what you feel any wildlife biologist who attended college is worth, tells me where you are as well.

If my college degree was the only thing propping up my argument it will be a cold day in ....

Plain and simple I've been on the ground and don't need you or anyone to qualify what I know and don't know.

I never said what you stated wasn't true. I simply said there is more to it than just how one side or the other sees it.
I understand fully the contentious nature of wolves and predators in the west. I choose to know this issue from all sides.

My apologies for debating the issue too hard, I'll bow out so this can change over to a one sided wolf rant.

Have a good one,

Justin

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3969925
08/28/13 02:11 PM
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Mike flick we have mounton loins in Michigan and even the DNR will tell you so but there not breeding in Michigan the DNR is saying guess its starts a bunch of crap when you get a rare animal making baby's in your state . The cougers don't hang around houses and eat up all the dogs and attack peoples horses and stalking kids . It's been witnessed over and over people seeing wolves sizing up kids . We are also trying to bring the moose back so wolf mangement is a good thing . Wolf management will also save the wolves from being shot off if this vote coming up to protect wolves gets passed it will devalue the wolf and they will be shot off surely . If this vote goes threw people will not even be able to get Michigan damage control permits what then SSS will take over . Wolves have a place here in Michigan if they have value a plus side .


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3970100
08/28/13 04:10 PM
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I can't believe that there are guys out there that criticize T-Man for their arguments. This back-and-forth between Justin and ADC is a classic.

I am ADCofWMt through and through. I have lived it, therefore it is true! ( Well, except for the exceptions )

My son is Justin through and through. While I have always expected to amaze my son with my vast knowledge of all things wild, it is he that amazes me much more often.

If we ever get to a situation where nearly everyone agrees on nearly every subject, then and only then, will T-Man ADC become useless.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3970151
08/28/13 04:29 PM
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Paul should have fun with this

A 16-year-old boy who fought off a rare apparent wolf attack in northern Minnesota says he won't be sleeping outside anytime soon.
Noah Graham of Solway was camping on Lake Winnibigoshish with five friends last weekend. He told The Pioneer of Bemidji that he was talking with his girlfriend just before the animal chomped the back of his head early Saturday.
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources officials think it's the first documented serious-injury wolf attack on a human in Minnesota. 
SUMMARY
Graham's girlfriend fled to her Jeep, while two other members of the camping party slept through all the screaming, kicking and fighting, he said.
The paper points out that wolf attacks are rare. There have been two fatal wolf attacks in North America in the past decades, one in north Canada and the other in Alaska.
As of Tuesday, the DNR was waiting for DNA test results to confirm whether a wolf trapped and killed in the same campground early Monday is the animal that attacked Graham, and for results on whether it had rabies.
"After I got up, I was kicking at it and screaming at it and it wouldn't leave"
- Noah Graham
Despite a 4-inch gash on his scalp, 17 staples to close the wound and "the worst pain of his life," Graham didn't seem fazed Monday by his encounter, nor the needle that delivered a rabies shot following the attack.
"I had to reach behind me and jerk my head out of its mouth," Graham recalled. "After I got up, I was kicking at it and screaming at it and it wouldn't leave. But then after a while I got it to run away."
The 75-pound male wolf killed Monday had a jaw deformity that prevented its upper and lower teeth from lining up and likely had to scavenge because it wouldn't have been able to kill large prey, said Tom Provost, regional manager for the DNR's enforcement division in Grand Rapids.
Graham said the attack came without warning.
"There was no sound at all. Didn't hear it. It was just all of a sudden there," he said.
Graham's girlfriend fled to her Jeep, while two other members of the camping party slept through all the screaming, kicking and fighting, he said.
Earlier Friday evening, an animal that several campers said was a wolf caused trouble in the West Winnie Campground, which is operated by the U.S. Forest Service.
The animal tore through at least two tents, puncturing an air mattress in one.
After Graham was attacked, officials from the Forest Service, DNR and Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe tried unsuccessfully to capture a wolf near the scene.
Later, a wolf approached a DNR officer a quarter-mile away. The officer fired at the wolf, but missed, and the wolf ran off.
U.S. Department of Agriculture trappers eventually caught the wolf that was destroyed Monday.
The Associated Press contributed to this report


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/27/16-.../#ixzz2dIRBMIHV


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3970207
08/28/13 04:52 PM
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That article agrees with just about everything that I have been taught about the canine predators. The wolf with the deformed jaw is much like the majority of coyotes that have been trapped in areas of severe pet depredation.

Nearly every wolf or coyote that causes trouble has either had an external or internal problem that causes them to be unable to feed itself on normal prey.

Thanks for that article Pesky. I would be shocked if the wolf they caught was not the culprit.

P.S. Unlike what a lot of people would like you to believe, canines ( especially wolves ) have been photographed wounding and killing caribou just for the fun of it. And National Geographics magazine photographers took some great pictures of the wolves in action.

This did not sit very well with those protectionists that claim, and I quote, "man is the only animal that kills for sport".

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3970440
08/28/13 06:54 PM
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The wolf was 75 pounds and missing a K9 tooth busted jaw makes me think got kicked by a moose or hit by a car . The animal still tore threw two tents grabed that kid by the head . I'm hearing story's now there dragging bears out of there dens in the winter time eating the bears not sure if there's any truth to that or not


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3970630
08/28/13 08:17 PM
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Quote:
SGS - The reason we have more of everything is because mandates to manage all species for the benefit of the public has grown. Frankly what is germane to this forum is that many states didn't have and some still don't have a furbearer biologist. Why? Because those animals aren't as important as game animals and the funding they bring in. The result? No research or little research and funding to help back up much of what we'd like to have about populations of furbearer species that could knock out arguments by groups trying to close trapping because of the potential to eradicate or extirpate a species.


Justin, the reason we have more animals is because of the increased enforcement of hunting seasons and bag limits, which I referred to as "intelligent management practices" above.

I really don't see your point but you can rest assured that we have a furbearer biologist here in NH and have had for decades.

You sure have a way of going on for paragraphs without saying much of relevance.

The long and short of my take on the subject is that in wildlife/human conflicts, humans win. If old Aldo was too much the fool to understand that there will not be wolves in with the sheep, it's not my problem.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3971055
08/28/13 11:31 PM
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We need more of this. Not that people getting attacked makes me smile, But it will make the YUPPIES of this country realize that wild animals can be dangerous,not like a boogey man. They are out there, and they are real. It could take the edge off of what our buddy Walt Dizney did for us and the fur industry.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972110
08/29/13 05:20 PM
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Mike, while I agree with you absolutely wholeheartedly, I recall back in Californicate, ( Maybe even while you were there ) that a coyote killed a kid and half the lunatics sided with the coyote. I think there message was something along the line of; "We have lots of kids but not a lot of coyotes."

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972216
08/29/13 06:07 PM
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That california death tied in to a bunch of urban feeders. I've looked at a bunch in the last few months and nearly always where the biggest problems are happening is folks thinking they need to feed the wildlife including coyotes with pups in order for them to survive. We do desperately need more wildlife education in schools and everywhere possible so folks can at least help prevent a good portion of the issues that arise.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972306
08/29/13 07:14 PM
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Heck with education. Most of those soft headed idiots are fully indoctrinated by the age of five. Start locking them up and setting a few examples and we might knock some sense back into folk.


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972344
08/29/13 07:32 PM
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True David, some folks need a little more than just talking to. Enforcing feeding bans is often an uphill battle, though more or our cities are trying.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972367
08/29/13 07:45 PM
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Lock people up for feeding wildlife!? That's certainly not where I want my taxes to go. Frankly, I don't want my taxes going to teaching about wildlife in schools either.

You guys sure are generous with other folks money.

A simple ticket would get the point across I'm sure.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972421
08/29/13 08:12 PM
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sgs, I give school talks for free, schools are always struggling to get free programs, wasn't looking for the govt. to use your tax money.

Sorry for the confusion, however tickets for feeding of wildlife when it causes bites, aggressive attacks and even death (the case wink mentioned),
yup, I believe folks should be ticketed at least, doubt any judge would lock someone up, out here you can rack up 15-20 DWI arrests and still be driving.

Feeding wiley coyote likely isn't high on the judges list of things to prosecute!

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972472
08/29/13 08:35 PM
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Quote:
I give school talks for free,


I like that. There are a lot of things I don't think the public school system should get involved in and this is one but it is the easiest place to influence a group of kids.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972516
08/29/13 08:54 PM
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sqs, you don't even have to get the government involved. We've seen a lot of complexes, both apartment and condo, that forced the tenants to stop feeding or pay our bill. Sometimes I wish it wouldn't work but it does.

Yeah, I never charged for school talks either.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3972548
08/29/13 09:02 PM
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Quote:
We've seen a lot of complexes, both apartment and condo, that forced the tenants to stop feeding or pay our bill.


There you go. Hit 'em where it hurts. I've suggested that to a couple of customers myself.

I work in a school district and give organized talks and a lot of one on one talks with the adults. It's amazing how little even folks who live in the country know about wildlife.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3974508
08/31/13 01:16 AM
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After watching this video and hearing about hundreds of sheep dieing the schools best get a plan going like passing out 12ga shot guns to protect the kids when there out side the school . the kids at these schools know about wildlife and the wolves surely have no problem hunting the school grounds . Wolves need to fear man bottom line

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9QjpWixrb4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3974627
08/31/13 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Wolves need to fear man bottom line


I'm with you on that Pesky. With the situation shown in the video, I think it would be best to go ahead and kill those particular wolves. They obviously don't have the level of fear I'm talking about.

Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3975272
08/31/13 02:44 PM
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Aldo Leopold a fool? I am stunned, absolutely speechless.


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Re: Sad to say it finally happened wolf attacked a kid [Re: Peskycritter] #3975907
08/31/13 08:15 PM
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Aldo Leopold a fool?


lol...No, I was trying to get across that animals, all of them, have they're place, although I must admit that the usefulness of certain viruses and pests like chiggers and bedbugs does escape me. Just because nature developed them doesn't mean I want them around me or my family.

There's a place for wolves and the school playground isn't it.

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