I am getting a really good feeling from the questions directed at the new NWCOA board and especially the answers! I think we may be on the verge of understanding that it is coming down to "Them Against Us"!

Here is something I think that many of you forget: To a fur trapper it looks like all these new regulations are meant to cut their throats while making all of us rich.

I realize that Charles's first couple of sentences in his post are true in many cases, ( I've probably met some of those Nevada trappers ) but I must say that Wisconsin people stick together. ( Mostly for warmth )

This subject has really got me thinking about sending in a check for a lifetime membership to the WTA for all our guys.

P.S. I realize that the NWCOA board has a lot of things to do besides replying to our moronic questions ( Which is why I tip my hat to Charles Holt ) but besides Charles, I have been most impressed by Jason Reger who I think can mend a lot of fences. And I love Vikki Rawe ( You all would ) and I have yet to hear one bad word about Mike Tucker. So there you have it; the entire NWCOA board and Salys and I can't come up with one snide remark? Amazing!

Just some random photos of past EXPOs. And when speaking of space you must realize that there is a concurrent session going on (in 2012 two other sessions) at same time as presentation in photo. Hope that helps to explain cost differences between events such as the EXPO/ WCT and other more local events as well as a small sample of topics covered.

Paul W,

Let me tell you a story about Tuck. Back at WCT Indianapolis we got that snow storm which turned an hour an a half drive for me and Deb into a seven hour pain it the you know what. It was our Anniversary and right when we got into our area of the city we got a call from our daughter that power went out throughout entire area so our anniversary dinner was slim jims, Vienna sausages, caned nuts and like items we could get from the one local store that was running the old fashion way (ringing stuff up on paper and making change without computer)And believe it or not is was enjoyable and very memorable and we shared the story with friends such as Mike Tucker.

Well fast forward to last week we got a package in the mail that was an ammo can full of slim jims, nuts, smoked oysters and other treats and on outside of ammo can was printed "25th anniversary emergency kit emergency use only" from none other than Tuck. To say we were touched would be an understatement.

Where are these expos held? Never heard of any held in iowa.

Paul A - I think one of the fundamental discussions and differences in the example presented about a trappers association rendezvous versus a trade association like NWCOA is the goal or hopeful outcome.

I've been to NTA, MTA (Mich. Trappers Assoc.), NMTA (here) and other trapper meetings including the purdue sponsored FTA course. I see fur trapping in line with hunting and fishing and other traditional consumptive use activities. The goal of most groups affiliated with these types of activities is to get more folks involved in a tradition that the group wishes to see carry on, for a variety of reasons.

As you are well aware and as are folks on here well aware fur trapping generally falls into several categories.

1) hobby (just like to run a little trap line each year and be outdoors with family, friends or nature)

2) business (I long line every year and make a decent portion of my annual gross income from the sale of fur)

3) Semi-serious (I trap fairly regularly during the season, put up my catch and make a few bucks while doing so that helps pay for my gas and some new traps).

****

Now the same tools as we know can be brought over and quite often are to the realm of nuisance wildlife management. Here again
some folks will use these tools and activities one way, while others quite another or not at all.

1) I do predator control for 95% of my nuisance wildlife activities and use all the implements and tools possible within my state regulations.

2) I use traps and snares only about 50% of the time or less, most of my tools for trapping are live traps or the like and the species I work
with are only partly comprised of furbearer where the tools and techniques can apply that I learned from fur trapping.

3) I don't use anything but cage traps and others that I can use in an urban/suburban environment and within my state regs available for my activity.

****

Now obviously these are oversimplified categories but the point I'll be trying to illustrate is that when I go to my trappers association meetings in the past they are teaching me techniques usually for fur season. Or they are teaching techniques meant for brand new trappers, kids, adults alike to get them to use best practices and not create problems that others may use against them.

These folks mostly that I've met are not making their living on fur trapping, or even damage management trapping (though I realize this depends on the area of the meeting).

So for me if I was to compare my state trappers association with ducks unlimited or rocky mountain elk or NWCOA, I'd find myself not seeing where the two align.

NWCOA for me is meant to help raise the awareness of our private industry nuisance wildlife trapping, whereas most trapping meetings I've been to are to keep "trapping" for fur or otherwise alive by making sure folks keep joining and learning to love trapping as a hobby or a paying deal.

It is too hard for me to see why NWCOA should cost what a trappers association membership should because simply to me they are apples and oranges.

They each serve a far different purpose and each should indeed serve their own purpose.

***

There are many entities that might share a fight but serve different overall principal needs. One example might be how folks who snowmobile and may lose their right to do so on public land somewhere, might partner with other ORV users, even if they are driving jeeps or SUV's because the threat is common.

However, there may be many ways they differ in overall mission and the folks who support them through funding.

To your mention of the stickers and so forth, I know this year a new management company is in place and they are on top of their game, from the day I paid my dues to my packet coming in the mail was literally a few days, I've had some correspondence with them as well and it has been very quick and attentive, they are also charged with getting the bat standards in an online class that folks can take from their computer anywhere in the world!

Great stuff is coming and I hope that folks who desire to see our industry rise to what it can be will start stacking bricks on the wall to help build a foundation we can all be proud of.

Everyone has different ideas of professionalism and what it means to them and what they need in any organization they support.

Charles' point about elk and trout is one I thought of earlier today, I've seen folks I am friends with spend oodles of money at banquets and other get togethers of RMEF and other groups and never partake in actually getting to hunt one!

I don't think it is important for us all to argue fur trapping versus commercial wildlife control industry, they are technically two different realms that do overlap, but need not compete or challenge each other for space. Many folks belong to both NWCOA and their state trappers association and find it suits them to do so, others one and not the other, to each his own from my perspective, I'd just like to see more collaboration and growth and less worry about what was and more worry about what can be.

Hope that didn't sound too touchy feely or political, and Paul A, I definitely understand your points and do not think your tone suggests anything jerky or otherwise, good discussion that ultimately has positive points and hopefully positive outcomes.

I do agree with Charles H. though, postings that don't specifically state tone can be taken any number of ways so always better to converse even via phone where tone of voice and words is better understood and accepted.

Best,

Justin

Charles, thanks for sharing the Mike T story. Reminds me of my wife. We were invited to a company night out with free refreshments, great meal, etc. for all of us foremen. The following day she sent a Thank You card to the company.

On the following week I was called into the office by the head of the personnel department. He wanted to convey a message from the company owner. We were the only employees to send a "Thank You" to the company for that evening out and he wanted us to know it.

I guess the "kicker" was that before I accepted the foreman's job I was a union steward and probably a constant pain in the company's butt.

dspree,

NWCOA events have been held in New Orleans, Atlanta, Tunica. Regional NWCOA training events have taken place in Indiana, Michigan, Kentucky, New York, Canada and maybe some locations I have forgotten. They can be done in any area with attendance guarantees or in conjunction with state associations such as the event Jason just attended in Colorado. The WILDLIFE EXPO is a yearly event who's planning is currently underway but as it is held in January or February possible weather conditions could keep it away from Iowa but you never know. But if you want an event there and could get interest from operators NWCOA would be pleased to put on a training event that is wanted.

Paul W,

Your fur trappers thinking regulations are cutting their throat statement hits home and I couldn't agree more. There should be a separation in commercial nuisance regulation and fur trapping. The guy or gal helping out a farmer/other to gain trapping rights for the season should not be held to the same standards or regulations as an operator providing a service for commercial gain. As a matter of fact I think that person who wants trapping rights should be able to remove wildlife under a depredation permit and not need a commercial license unless receiving payment. Another example would be a commercial operator not being able to operate in another state based on whether or not fur trapping is allowed in both states. Comingling of the two has made for some challenges.

Wow again thanks so much your all's in put. Thanks for taking the time explain. I have been involed with our state fur trapping assc. for about 15 years on different levals. Now with business being very good Im only able to serve when I can like the training camp. And I do a small talk on ADC the friday night before to raise awareness to new trappers of the oppertunity in wildlife control. So thank you again and I think I was sold on becomming a member:)
Good post! I havent been on TMan much My predator work in Alabama kept me moving and shaking lol

Good points, all!
Jason, actually Wink identified himself as NWCOA president: "...as president of NWCOA I can't..."!
I stand corrected on the $50 membership issue; it obviously won't apply for WCO's such as us.
As you are the president of NWCOA, you should proudly identify yourself as such in all matters involving NWCOA. We appreciate your comments.
Charles, good info. Wonderful pix, even the one with me in it.
Mr. Antczak, there's no free lunch. Wildlife Expo's are tremendous trade events and worth every cent invested in attending them.
As Justin says, fur trapping is not WC; there is overlap between the two, but each has distinct facets and NWCOA is clearly a fine organization supporting and promoting the latter.

Good points, all!
Jason, actually Wink identified himself as NWCOA president: "...as president of NWCOA I can't..."!
I stand corrected on the $50 membership issue; it obviously won't apply for WCO's such as us.
As you are the president of NWCOA, you should proudly identify yourself as such in all matters involving NWCOA. We appreciate your comments.
Charles, good info. Wonderful pix, even the one with me in it.
Mr. Antczak, there's no free lunch. Wildlife Expo's are tremendous trade events and worth every cent invested in attending them.
As Justin says, fur trapping is not WC; there is overlap between the two, but each has distinct facets and NWCOA is clearly a fine organization supporting and promoting the latter.

Paul,

As Charles Holt stated, do not confuse the NWCOA training events (Expo, BWOTC, Bat Standards, etc.) with the WCT events (WCT Magazine, WCT Seminar, WCT Bat Management Workshop, WCT Wildlife Exclusion Workshop) or training DVDs (WCT Running A Wildlife Control Business, WCT Working with Slate and more in production).

WCT Group, is the Wildlife Control Training Group and is the owner of Wildlife Control Technology (WCT) Magazine.

NWCOA is a 501c(6) organization. A major difference between a 501c(6) and a 501c(3) is that memberships/donations to the 501c(6) are not tax deductible, they are expenses whereas donations to a 501c(3) are tax deductible.

Training shouldn't be just about the topic or course, it should be about how you do or do not implement that information into your business or personal life.

Case in point, at the Wildlife Expo I spoke with several individuals that did not attend my Bat Species Identification presentation because they "already knew everything I was going to cover." Once they realized that the presentation was more about changing regulations, why being able to show bat identification skills will be important, and how to develop those skills I got the feeling they wished they would have attended it.

Everyone is going to take something different out of a training session, even if it is how not to do something. I can be in a fur trapping presentation and get more out of it with ideas for my wildlife control company than I can with a wildlife control presentation and visa versa. Personally, each presentation is valued and weighted on what I feel is important and how it interacts with my current business plan and goals.

There are several individuals attending the WCT Wildlife Exclusion workshop at the end of March from presentations I did last year that didn't even discuss exclusion principals or techniques. It was their interest in those non related classes that helped them decide to attend this event.

As Charles stated, putting together events is not a simple process.

There are several main differences between a trapping event held at a state park or fair ground and a training event held at an indoor facility.

First, is that trapping events generally do not include lunch, coffee, morning pastries, beverages or snacks. All food and beverage at a training facility must be purchased through that facilities caterer. So you generally have options like ala cart where coffee is $30-$55 per gallon and pastries that are $3 each or guaranteeing a certain number of attendees and doing a program that includes things like coffee and pastries for $20-$35 per person per day. Then add lunch to the mix and you have another $35-$60 per person with X number of guaranteed attendees and suddenly a 2 day event is $$120 per person just for food (and don't forget the 8% sales tax and mandatory 22% gratuity).

Next, add in the additional items needed such as microphones, projector rental, podium, projector screen, tables, and chairs and you have another $1,500 on top of the room rental fees (again with the 8% sales tax and 22% gratuity).

Then you have handouts materials and speaker compensation. If you need to have 100 black & white 50 page handouts made at .10 cents a page that's another $500 just for the copies. Add more for putting them together. And if you're doing travel and/or room expenses keep adding to it. Then, if you're doing a hands-on class or event you need to include the hands-on materials and finally don't forget marketing expenses.

Now let's look at the trapping convention side. First, the space may be free which right there cuts the cost per person down considerably. If the space needs rented, that is generally the only expense the organization has besides possibly a microphone and marketing. There is no speaker compensation (well maybe free admittance), no free coffee, pastries, or snacks. No table, chair, projector, or screen rentals. Covering expenses is easier as you'll have more attendees so you can charge a lower admission rate, more vendors (including tailgaters) paying to participate, percentage of food sales (at times), and camping fees.

In a nutshell, this is why a commercial training event is usually much more to attend than a trapping event.

i will rejoin nwcoa at a later date but yes that $250 fee is a deal breaker right now as i am part time status...i have WCO insurance from a company in Illinois that covers it at $252 a year with 1,000,000 in coverage. i was a member for several years...i understand the need to join..once full time i will get back involved...

Ok ok I will join lol you all sold me lol.

Saltwater fisheries is going through similar regulatory conflicts, recreational fishermen versus commercial fishermen. Except in the fisheries case, it was comm regs trumping rec regs. The regulators are finally considering the "common sense" approach, that comm and rec are not the same and have different needs, outcomes and futures. Past regulations made enemies between comms and recs in many cases. Just as fur trappers and NWCO's can seem to be at odds due to bad regs. Information is the key to living peacefully with the welfare of the resource always in mind, with a healthy association the best way to educate and inform.

I was a member for a couple years but $250 a year membership is to much for me.I know yall put on seminars and training but the member also has to pay to attend.Id gladly join again if the fee was dropped to a reasonable amount.

Well, how about reducing the fees, doing an auction, selling some raffle tickets, good food and lots of beer? This method seems to work well for many wildlife related non profits in the west? Just my input to perhaps make a bigger group, and increase working funds. You then could start charging $250 just for seats at a table.

Trapster, The aspect of the trainings being paid for is something in every professional association I've ever belonged to. Local meetings and chapter meetings or national always have workshops and other trainings available and they always cost to attend. I think that when you are running a business folks have to remember that first the training is only as good as the trainers and secondly that if all training was free then anyone including those who don't run a professional business could just attend and be out there selling the same service as you or I as professional businessmen and women.

I realize the focus seems to hover around this $250.00 membership, if you aren't concerned about voting, you can get an associate membership for 50% off at $125.00 that still gets you involved, tied in and many of the perks of being a member.

I don't have a problem with anyone saying, "hey, I just can't afford it at this time" however I think to keep rehashing the cost of the membership as a roadblock to moving the association forward professionally has been hammered pretty well flat at this point.

Some folks will join, some won't, ultimately most folks on this forum who call themselves wildlife control operators rarely leave the vehicle for less than $500.00 per job and sometimes that is just to set gear, let alone the ultimate cost of a contract.

I should state that though I've been a member since I started my private company in 2011, I am not a board member and I'm only speaking my opinion as I see our industry and where it should be going.

As I've said before, I don't take money lightly, but investing in my national association to move this ball forward is the least I can do to help create something that ultimately I can be proud of and that will help us as an industry when issues arise that may serve to put us out of business or limit our rights and abilities.

This takes money and funding and membership, so please consider joining when you are able.

Sincerely,

Justin