http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...nd_HSUS?#UNREAD

Anyone care to comment?

They are in the business of selling traps. Looking at photos of T.N.R. groups that use their line of traps and the sheer number of traps these groups are buying from them it would be a horrible business decision not to sell to them. Anyone else ordering 50+ traps at a time?

And lets face it HSUS is now in the business of providing wildlife control on a commercial basis. I personally have been outspoken on that threat for years and for the most part it has fallen on deaf ears.

Greg, Jen, Kyle and family have been supportive of our industry for years and I expect that support to continue. Great people, great products it surprises me not one bit that other groups besides our industry would choose their products.

MARK THIS ONE DOWN: Mr. Holt made a post that I agree with in its entirety! And as for not selling your product being a horrible

business decision, it's probably also a very easy way to wind up in court on the wrong side of a lawsuit. I hate to admit it

Charles, but you nailed this one! ( Could I be getting mellow in my senior years? )

Sanity hit the board.

To my way of thinking the big question is, is HSUS using these cage traps and following the laws pertaining to the capture of these animals? Here in Ohio we must euthanize any animals caught. Are they doing the same? I think the DNR should be watching the HSUS closely.

The cool thing....they are using the same tomahawk or COMSTOCK traps many of you use. That should make ya'll feel good!

Paul,

I think we agree on a lot more issues than we disagree on. It just so happens the issues we disagree on create an emotional response from both of us. But I agree this is one "issue" we will always agree on!

Wormbobskey,

Relocation could be an issue but with release on site (reuniting of wildlife family)or one-way doors being available to them may not be as much of an issue as HSUS approaching regulators, city councils and others requiring operators to adopt their method of wildlife control based on feel good trash science.

wormbobskey, this is for your eyes only! ( Everybody else, close your eyes ) There is not a single organization that I am aware of

that is as universally despised for doing nothing but taking the money and prying at the hearts of elderly people, like HSUS! They

are, from everything I have read, some of the most despicable, so called, animal experts on the face of the earth. Oppositely, their

contributors may be some of the most wonderful, caring, and perhaps, somewhat misinformed people on that same earth! My job and

yours, as I see it, is to convince people by our looks and actions, that we care a lot more about the welfare of every species native

to our area, than anybody else! You are in your customer's phone book. Use it, intelligently!

Agree 100% Paul.

Just to clarify the Ohio laws.

To start, the law is release on-site, relocate, or euthanize nuisance wild animals. The only animals we must euthanize are beaver, coyote, fox [red or gray], opossum, raccoon, and skunk. You are also allowed to use lethal means of control on these species.

All the following mammals can be relocated, euthanized or killed (to include lethal means of control) at the discretion of the CNWACO: rats [roof and Norway], mice [house, Deer, Meadow Jumping, Woodland Jumping, White-footed] chipmunks, shrews [Least, Northern short-tailed, Pygmy, Smoky], moles [Easter, Hairy tailed, Start-nosed], voles [Meadow, Pine, Southern Red-backed], squirrels [red, gray, fox, flying], woodchucks and muskrat.

Any mink, river otter, badger, bobcat, weasel [least, long-tailed], cotton-tailed rabbit, southern bog lemming, or thirteen-lined ground squirrel must be relocated unless you have a letter of permission from division of wildlife.

Special permission is required to trap or capture: Black bears, White-tailed deer, Snowshoe hares, Indiana bats, Northern long-eared bats, Allegheny woodrats, and Eastern harvest mice.

Since I always figure I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer, I begrudgingly admit defeat! Thanks Charles! ( Am I the only one that

noticed that it's a lot easier to be mean to someone on-line than it is to be mean in person? ) I'm not sure if everyone who reads

our posts is aware, but Mr. Holt, Mr. Dave K, & a host of others on here that I've disagreed with, are really people that I admire

and have considered them my friends for some time. ( No, I'm right and they're wrong. I'm not admitting defeat entirely; That's

what us more mature people do. ) Do you have grandparents? Think about it.

This was just posted on trapper talk forum:

Thanks Kirk. Must of put on wrong thread.

I agree with lots of things said in the responces above. Obviously we shouldn't hold it against the folks at Tomahawk for making a quality product that everyone wants to buy....and you know making a living. That would be like me refusing to talk to Paul or Charles because they provided service for a big nasty left wing athiest. Which most likey we have all done wether we know it or not. I also agree that the biggest supporters of those no accounts are the best people with a heart of gold trying to do the right thing. The thing this week that saddened me the most with the HSUS thing is Muck Boots donating a bunch of money to them. I love my Mucks, now I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to buy another pair. Now that my friends is the difference, selling your products to worthless no goods makes you a law abbiding citizen and a good buisness man. GIVING money to the enemy, now there's grounds for a revolt. Charles is also correct about the preaching about hsus moving in our buisness, also the pest control companys. Those 2 groups have been a threat since I started 15yrs ago...now its no longer a threat but a reality. Some of you guys took heed of this and have rolled with the punches, by being liscensed PCO's and setting your companys a cut above the rest. This has been accomplished with continued education, add on services and most importantly superior customer service. PCo's are very good with customer service when its profitable, since the ones I have seen try to run WC like PC it will never be profitable so they cease to be competition. Sure they will do the WC for their slumlord appartments and the like but who in their right mind wants that headache to deal with. So simply educate yourselves, your employees and your clients and give them the best service that money can buy.

Charles, Paul and Kyle said it all I can't add anything.

Good post Travis. I'm new to the Muck Boots thing, but letting them know exactly how you feel and why, is very important. This gives

them an opportunity to defend their actions and gives you an opportunity to reassert your feelings. Once you have them on paper, you

are in a position to really effect their sales. Although different sporting groups have been known to dislike one another, they have

also been known to take groups like HSUS very seriously!

There's plenty of good trap makers out there no point in buying tomahawk traps they wanta play with HSUS wonder how tomahawk pays out to be a link on the HSUS web site . I about fell over seeing the demo list at the NTA nationals this year seeing a guy doing a demo for tomahawk trap company .

My registration has been approved so I may now directly respond to any questions on this topic.

Pesky, if someone asked you to recommend cage traps for let's say, raccoon, woodchuck, and squirrel, which cages would they be?

tomahawk,,,,,dobbins does not allow links to anti's web sites

Why pick on anyone? Ya'all should just get along. The biggest threat to the business... Is ourselves.

http://www.birdbarrier.com/content/tag/humane-society/

Then there is a bat thingie...
http://www.birdfighter.com/index.php/bat-and-rodent-control-products/bat-and-rodent-control.html

Wrong Dave! The biggest threat to our business is people with the skill to convince Pesky and others that a company like Tomahawk

would support an incredible bunch of crooks like HSUS. Whoever thought of this ploy in the HSUS office, probably got a winter home in

the Bahamas. I am reasonably sure that the protectionist groups are not very happy that we, as an industry, are as successful as we

are. Look at it from their point of view: they made millions of dollars by doing nothing more than advertising. Now we come along and

actually provide a service and apparently are cutting into their profits big time. Education really sucks for some, apparently!

Paul, you are right. I didn't think tomahawk was that foolish when I started this thread. Figured it should be aired out before it hit the gossip mill.
I can't fault tomahawk one bit for selling to all comers, heck most of us deal with that sort every day.
We got to stick together and lose the holier than though attitudes.

I'm not so sure they convinced pesky. But, you will have to ask him. Depending on the answer, one of us will be right.

By the way, warrior, I really applaud you for starting this whole thing in the first place! And your closing sentence is something

that I will try to remember verbatim. ( David knows what verbatim means; His mom taught English. )

Hey Dave, Pesky is entitled to his own opinion and all I'm trying to find out is what that opinion is. I, personally, gave Pesky a

lot of heat that he didn't deserve. The truth is that I should make the pilgrimage to Michigan and meet you, Krier, Pesky, and all

the other Michiganites on their own turf. ( After that trip, I would be featured in one of those infamous Michigan commercials )

Of course...and like any trapperman...has one. That is precisely my point.

Yes, come on over....

Paul,,,, you can come to WA, OR, CA, Arizona or CO (soon)and visit me.......

(Steak is on me,,,,,,)

So many cats, so little space! If storing the box traps you need to TNR cats in your community is a problem, you should know about the new Neighborhood Cats Collapsible Trap. It's got all the strength and features of a standard box trap plus an ingenuous design that folds perfectly flat when the trap isn't in use.

The Neighborhood Cats Collapsible Trap is made by Tomahawk Live Trap. It folds flat or sets up within seconds - no tools required! This trap is the perfect choice whenever storage is limited. Whether you're a trapper with a city apartment and overstuffed closets, or a busy shelter interested in maintaining a trap bank for your community, the NC Collapsible Trap can help!

Tomahawk introduced the Neighborhood Cats Collapsible Trap at The Humane Society of the United States annual EXPO, held May 20-23, 2014 in Daytona Beach. Hundreds of conference-goers had the chance to collapse and un-collapse the trap for themselves and most said things like "Amazing!" and "Incredible!". The collapsible trap is available now from Tomahawk for $75.00 ($67.50 when ordering 6 or more). For specifications and to place an order click here.

A portion of proceeds from each trap will be donated by Tomahawk to support The Humane Society of the United States' community cat programs.

Read the bottom line. Its just like paying taxes they say its to pay for one thing and they use it for what ever they want. In my eye's they are giving money to the HUSA. I will not toss my Tomahawk traps but I sure will not buy anymore.

Please post a link to your source. That concerns me greatly. One thing to sell to the enemy another thing all together to attend their expo and share revenue.

Tomahawk is a sponsor of the HSUS convention and the only trap company invited so be like saying water is not wet this stuff has been all over face book not only thing that has come to lite ether but I'm not going to bring up all that dirt .
Paul asked which company I think makes a good trap . Williams trap last life time . Wickacamp great trap little over priced IMO but great trap to work with high catch rate on both these traps . Advanced trap played with that trap at the nationals amazing Kirk can turn a profit with the quality that's put into that trap . Shop.snaresandtraps.com former owner of tomahawk trap company designer of the tomahawk line of traps also still uses American made wire . I think the basic coon trap tomahawk design American wire is 45 bucks . Catch poles parts still made and temperd in wi . One more thing tomahawk has never denied being a sponsor of HSUS and that's fine with me they wish to go there surely free to do so but don't expect to see a nickel of my money again good luck with the cat crazys all I can say .

Paul...perhaps we are both right?

Our final response on this subject:

It is a fact that Tomahawk Live Trap does not donate money to the HSUS. As a manufacturer of animal equipment we have professional relationships with various companies and organizations. We have a relationship with the Neighborhood Cats organization. They designed and market a series of cat traps and we pay a $1.00 fee to Neighborhood Cats for each one of their traps sold. It would be a terrible business decision for us to discriminate against anyone and most likely illegal. We respect everyone’s opinions and wish you all the best in the future.

Thank you,
Kyle

Funny thing the last part on the site was removed by this morning. It was there last night. lol I am sure anti's buy stuff from other trap dealer's and lure makers to solve problem they have with animals. But I can bet you they would not get discounts or money donated to HSUS if they were buying things from Paul or MTP ect. Its one thing to take money for something you sell but its another to give money back to HSUS. JMO But with that I am done with tomahawk and would highly discourage any trappers or ADC workers to support them. Just the fact it was took down in less then 12 hours is what shocked me! If you or they have nothing to hide then why work on getting it removed so quickly? Thats all I am done.

Ya'll are silly. The more folks that use the same live traps that you use...the better. The more traps Tomahawk sells...the better. Don't ya'll want strong infrastructure for this industry?

Everytime an industry magazine...manufacturing facility...inventor...or organization get's going....someone has to tear it down. It's silly. Such a divided group...

JMO as someone who walks the line himself, two of my biggest lead sources are a couple of Atlanta's biggest anti outfits, I think tomahawk crossed the line. Decide what you will but I've made my decision.

This is some really serious stuff, and as a big promoter of Tomahawk Traps, I really need to know what you all are talking about! I

had no clue of anything unusual, then I find that there are some pretty serious accusations about the support given to & taken from

Tomahawk Traps. I would really like some very truthful information about what is going on from both sides. I know the entire Smith

family ( They own Tomahawk Traps ) and I have enjoyed them all! I have been to their plant as many of you know by reading my column

in WCT magazine. Unfortunately, my extreme dislike for an organization like the HSUS, trumps any bonds that HSUS has with the

Smiths. If, as warrior has said, there is an unbelievable conflict of interest, I really would like to know. ( And if there is, it

would probably break my heart!

Probably Mr. Winkelmann is the only one who can speak for the dynamic in 1925 when the Smith family saw an opportunity and started making traps for primarily for local animal shelters, aspca's or humane societies. HSUS and WCO's were not even on Nostradamas's radar.
I discreetly do work for hsus contributor's and peta members. I have been a board member and president of our local "humane society" which many people have said it is an oxymoron. Most used to be concentrated on animal welfare not animal rights hovever that has evolved. I think I was able to influence the rational involvement in animal rights issues. I resigned when I saw the alley cat movement overtaking the concern for all life. We started to support these programs without concern for wildlife. If anyone has ever watched a cat kill it is not a euthanasia it is a killing by a serial killer. If trap nueter and release would cure a serial killer we should have done that to Ted Bundy. He could have been a very productive citizen if we could have cured that murderous (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman).
I was able to leave that behind without harming my ability to support my family.
I know the Smith family particularly the 3rd and 4th generation currently owning and operating tomahawk.
I see them supporting FTA, NTA, WCT, and NWCOA and they hunt throughout the U.S.
The same tool Tomahawk sells to form a cat colony can also be used to wipe out a cat colony. I wish they weren't giving a dollar to these misguided cat people but if I owned a trap making company I'm not sure I wouldn't do it. The next time you order traps from Tomahawk ask them if they would donate a dollar to your state trapping asso. or state wco asso. or NWCOA I bet they would do it. Giving a dollar to a group is like paying for a click on your web site, or mentioning an add you get a discount.
I have rambled on this post because the question and the answer are not simple.
If I owned tomahawk I would sell the cat trap to anyone wanting to tnr or euthanize a cat colony. I may agree with one side or the other but I would sell to both. I'd sell a hammer to someone building something or someone tearing down something.
I have never beento an HSUS meeting but I have been to FTANTANWCOAWCT and several local trapping associations and have always seen Tomahawk there supporting us and for that I am going to continue to support Tomahawk and buy hormel meats which is where Greg worked for years until he and Jenny bought the family business.
One last thing they are made in America where the eating of cats is still a silent minority and that means something to me.

Ahhhh....there is hope.

I don't know about the rest of you that are reading this post but here is what I know: I have never talked to a single person that

was a rehabber or worked for the local humane societies that did not show the same amount of disgust for the Humane Society of the

United States as I have. The usual quote is "They have the funds to do so much for animals and they basically do nothing!"

This thread has really turned into something I didn't really expect. First of all let me say, I do not know the folks at Tomahawk personally nor have I ever purchased a single product from them. Yes I have owned a few of their traps but they were aquired via raffles or trades. However any event (fur or WCO) I have attended over the years has had a Tomahawk rep at it. That tells me our buisness is important to them, I'm also sure that the "animal wefare" groups buisness is also important to them. So I would guess they are in attendence at their respective events as well, once again good buisness. If the one dollar thing is true I like Brookers idea to donate to a state WCO group as well, I'm sure it would happen. I think the bottom line here is this is an American company with American employees that from all information I have uses American made components to build their products. To me that's important. I think there can be some common ground found here on the whole dollar thing because that seems very important to some, at least the whole idea of it seems important. I could honestly care less however I see where folks are coming from, its not the money its the principal...I get it. So let's have the powers that be work their magic and get this aspect cleared up. Then we can get back to the important thing here...being proud to have an American company to work with. We are all buisnessmen here and that being said we all know good buisness from bad or we would be former buisnessmen. So keep that in mind in this instance.

You guys are upset with who Tomahawk sells their traps to and who they advertise to/with . The fact is they are a good company.
After all who will they sell their traps to when USDA puts us all out of business if only you would focus your attention on a real issue.
Your worried about where $1 goes. What about all the millions of YOUR tax dollars that are going to support your competitor.

Yup.

Travis, your post was excellent! You have no reason to say anything and yet you did a heck of a lot better job than us so-called "writers."

Well looks like Michigan has the HSUS on the run bill just passed the senate just think of all that waisted money HSUS has spent here

Breaking: HSUS Loses Charity Rating



http://www.awesomeocean.com/2014/07/31/breaking-hsus-loses-charity-rating/

What Travis said.
The "article" on the above website was extremely biased, and not journalism at all..but that's the interweb!
Having said that, it's quite informative as to HSUS tactic (presuming it's accurate).

At one time Critter Control advertised that they were approved and recomended by the HSUS. It didn't hurt their bottom line one cent.
I dare any of you to advertise that you are against the HSUS and all they stand for and then report on your business for the next year or two.
If the HSUS advertised they used Tomohawk traps then I would advertised I used the trap they use themselves and piggy back along to the bank.

V3H, If I had anything to say about our on-line advertising, I would be more than willing to take on your dare. Our local Humane

Societies and rehabbers hate HSUS with a passion and I'm guessing that we would actually have an uptick in business if we did what

you dared. HSUS might be a big deal in Indiana but in Wisconsin they truly suck!

I'd take you up on it well but seeing as how half of mine is word of mouth.....

Well it's official wildlife act passed today in Michigan HSUS is gone for good there last and final attack back fired gives me goose bumps . No more politics in wildlife management glory days in the great lakes state

See Pesky: Never give up hope! I'm not talking about HSUS; I'm talking about you and me seeing eye to eye on the same subject. It can happen and did! Of all the despicable groups, HSUS is numero uno in my book! Hooray for Michigan!

 
In a move that sends a powerful message to anti-hunting groups across the country, the Michigan House yesterday approved a citizen-initiated law that gives sole authority on decisions related to Michigan fishing and gaming to the state’s Natural Resource Commission (NRC).
The Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act (SFWCA) overrides two ballot issues set to appear on Michigan’s November ballot that were introduced by the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). The ballot issues were an attempt by HSUS to ban the hunting of wolves in the state’s Upper Peninsula.
In the face of yet another challenge from the D.C.-based animal rights group, Michigan’s sportsmen community did not back down. Groups including Citizens for Professional Wildlife Management, Michigan United Conservation Clubs, Michigan Legislative Sportsmen’s Caucus, and many others contributed to the creation of this new legislation meant to combat the nonsensical initiatives pushed by HSUS.
The move by the Michigan state legislature to subvert HSUS’s latest attempt to restrict hunting rights garnered strong support from Michigan citizens. The petition to send the bill to the Legislature received over 297,000 signatures, far and away more than HSUS and its front group, Keep Michigan Wolves Protected, received for either of their initiatives.
While the hunting ban proponents relied on their typical animal rights messaging, the support for SFWCA was based on scientific research from state animal biologists, a need to be protected from a potentially dangerous species whose population has increased over the past few decades, and common sense reasoning that a ban on wolf hunting is harmful to citizens as well as the state’s economy.
The intent of the organizations and individuals who support Michigan wolf hunting is not a malicious one. They simply understand that properly regulated wolf hunting protects property, people, and Michigan’s ecological balance. That is why the limits have been maintained at a modest total, 43 in 2013 for example.
Hunting has been one of our nation’s most longstanding traditions. It provides a vast number of jobs and produces millions of dollars that stimulate the economy and fund conservation initiatives across the country. It’s important to remember that wildlife management programs based on science don’t just help protect jobs and property, but they ensure that animals are protected and the proper ecological balance is maintained in wildlife habitats across the country.
That has been the case in Michigan until recently. The wolf population has seen tremendous growth, which spurred the initial decision to remove them from the endangered species list, there. Wolves have been known to be especially aggressive towards cattle, hounds, and various other animals. Attacks on humans have been rare, but such occurrences cannot be ruled out when dealing with an aggressive species like the wolf that must compete with other predators to feed themselves and their offspring.
HSUS’s primary objective in attempting these ballot initiatives all over the United States is to inch closer to their goal of an all-out ban on hunting. With every defeat of these proposals, they lose public support, funding and the ear of public officials. More people begin to see them for their hypocrisy and extremism every single day.  Their reputation, which is based on a false image of caring individuals that only seek to help animals, slowly erodes as the reality of their money-hungry ways becomes more apparent.
Never forget this important fact about radical special interest groups: They care more about their radical agenda than who or what may be negatively impacted by it if they succeed. Whether they win or lose, the consequences of their actions don’t affect them; they only affect the citizens of the state they force their agendas on. States, cities, counties and their residents — all just pieces in their giant chess game.
But that is not what’s important here. The important takeaway from the passage of the Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act is that sportsmen are an important voice in our society. Like their counterparts across the country, Michigan sportsmen contribute greatly to their state’s quality of life, economy, and conservation efforts. Their victory in Michigan deals yet another blow to HSUS’s legislative agenda and sets an important precedent to secure Michigan conservation efforts that are based on facts and science, while preserving the rights and heritage of sportsmen throughout the state.

Maybe no one else caught this or maybe I missed it in another resply, so here's my take on it.

According to Tomahawk's response, Neighborhood Cats designed and built their own trap specifically for trap, neuter, release programs. Apparently this trap has some design advantages that these types of groups like. It looks to me like Neighborhood Cats licensed Tomahawk to make and market the traps and pay a royalty of $1 per trap sold. Pretty smart business if you ask me.

I don't see this as any different than the agreement they have with Comstock Traps. Jim designed and built an innovative trap and has licensed Tomahawk to make and market his trap too. I am sure he gets a royalty check for every one of his traps that they sell.

Just because you conduct business with someone does not mean you are wholly in agreement with their beliefs and morals. IF that were so, I would have a very limited clientele. Most of the people who are in almost total agreement with my beliefs are probably not going to need my services. For the most part, they take care of their own problems .

Well said Dirk!

Wonderful posts, Dirk and Pesky! I know that often we seem at different odds, but my old buddy, Red Green, said the truth, "We're all

in this together!"

What Dirk and Wink said.

As most of you know, I have had my disagreements with NWCOA. Still do and I am working through that. However, some important information on this particular thread has come to my attention and I think it needs to be here for all to see.

Tomahawk has agreed to put together a line of WCO traps with a donation going to NWCOA for every trap sold.

Have you ever wished for a trap that had certain features? As a professional in the wildlife control industry what do you want or need in a trap? Have an idea that would make a trap more roof/turf friendly or make our job easier?

Now is your chance to help create a cage trap developed for our industry. Tomahawk Live Trap plans to work in conjunction with NWCOA members and other operators to create traps that have the features professional WCO's want and need. Tomahawk will make a donation to NWCOA based on sales of this model of trap.

Even if you are not a member of NWCOA, they want to know what features would serve you best.

Thanks Tomahawk Live Trap for your dedication to our industry!

Design and feature suggestions should be forwarded to generalorganizer@nwcoa.com.

Thanks for info, Dirk. This should be a real challenge. Every time I think I have an idea to improve on a cage, I find out that my idea has shortcomings too. It's not going to be that easy to improve the normal raccoon and squirrel cages if you use the motto that "simpler is better!"

This is how the Ga. DNR litterally stopped the trapping of turtles and has severely limited markets. Michigan trappers lost that one. Right under their noses.

Not sure why they stopped the commercial harvest Kirk guess because they were down to two lic commercial trappers maybe .reason given was a commercial trapper could over trap turtles in a area and it will take 20 to 30 years to rebound which seems odd seeing turtles migrate around so much . Surely no shortage of turtles
I would rather take my chances with are NRC vs fighting these ballot issues every few years from HSUS .

Two Things For You Trap Inventors: I need a floating muskrat trap that actually catches muskrats and doesn't kill everything on the pond.
Once again, most cages are too big. I caught the largest raccoon of the year today in a 9x9x26. He weighed 32 pounds including cage.

As long as the True Sportsmen, hunters and trappers are running the show your ok.

Case in point is Fla. They have no bear season and have some of the highest bear population areas of any state in the U.S. Last few years have had many attacks. They have tested areas and shown extremely high concentrations of bear. Yet no Bear season.

Fla. also has Millions of alligator and has a relatively minute catch compared to what is out there especially on the big private ranches such as Duda, the Mormans, and most state land. Gator attacks are at an all time high.

Restrictions on harvesting turtles is so great, there virtually is none. Even on private, limited access, private land.

Even the fishery in Fla is very restrictive to the sportsman to what is there. The restrictions are so great enjoying the outdoors is difficult.

I had a long talk with a biologist this week end.

Good post Kirk! The most amazing thing about your posts is that people actually think that they are being "so kind" to the animals by

not allowing liberal seasons on over-abundant predators. Talking to your customers is fine; I do it all the time. But, what we really

need is to talk to the educators of our children, so that future generations are intelligent enough to rectify the mistakes of their

parents and grandparents.

I agree Paul. That is why I allowed NBC to do a segment on nuisance trapping beaver that was shown nation wide and why I speak at schools, civic organizations, and radio when I get a chance.



I have at least two Universities that I know of are using some of my videos for class use and traps for instruction. There have been numerous responses letting me know schools are also using the material.

What I believe works best is hands on instruction as is shown in picture. The negative aspect was that the beaver could not be shown live and my request was turned down by the DNR. In all cases the teachers and principles want the animals to be shown.

What hurts all is the restriction of material.

Good for you Kirk! Education is so much more important since we have gone from a rural to an urban society. Things that we learned by

ourselves as farm kids are no longer available to the kids with a quarter of an acre backyard. Our teachers used to learn from us in

many cases. In high school the city kids often envied us for being able to go hunting and trapping before the school bus picked us

up, but they did listen to what we had to say. I'm not going to say that the electronic games that the kids have now are not fun, I

know they are, but they will never replace the great outdoors with a gun on your shoulder or a trap in your hand.

Just as I thought we were past all this guess not

Natural Resources Commission Asks DNR to Review Science, Data on Wolf Depredations for 2015

EAST LANSING—The Natural Resources Commission today announced that it


Photo: ABC 10 News – U.P.
would not consider a wolf hunt for 2014, even if the two referendums on the November 2014 ballot which originally authorized a wolf hunt were approved. A separate law, the Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, will grant the Natural Resources Commission authority to designate game species using sound science when it takes effect in March or April.

“Even if the referendums are passed, there would not be time to establish a wolf hunt in 2014,” said Commissioner John Matonich.  “We ask the Wildlife Division to study the science and the data on wolf depredations of dogs and livestock and present their findings to the commission in 2015.”

Russ Mason, chief of the DNR Wildlife Division, also announced that department biologists would be reviewing and possibly updating the department’s wolf management plan.

“We’re very happy with the decision to study the science and not to rush a wolf hunt this year,” said Amy Trotter, resource policy manager for Michigan United Conservation Clubs. “The Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act was not about a wolf hunt, despite what the anti-hunters claimed. It was about making the decision and others like it with sound science, and that is exactly what the NRC has asked for. “

The Humane Society of the United States announced that it would be campaigning aggressively for a “no” vote on Proposals 1 and 2 this November, which originally granted the Natural Resources Commission the authority to establish Michigan’s wolf hunt last year. However, the decision not to hold a wolf hunt in 2014 renders those referendums meaningless, since the Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act will re-grant the NRC that authority when it takes effect, regardless of the referendums.

“We don’t plan to spend any money on what is essentially an exit poll,” said Drew YoungeDyke, a spokesman for Citizens for Professional Wildlife Management, the coalition behind the Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. “Every dime that HSUS spends on the referendums is one that won’t shelter a single pet, but I think people are starting to realize that’s not what they do, anyways.  We are encouraging people to vote ‘yes,’ on Proposal 2, though, to let HSUS know that it can’t buy votes just by spending a lot of money on political commercials.”

The NRC set a quota of 43 wolves across three separate zones of the Upper Peninsula in 2013, of which hunters harvested 22. Whether there is a wolf hunt in 2015 and what the hunting unit boundaries and quotas are will be determined by the Natural Resources Commission based on the recommendations of DNR biologists. The Scientific Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act requires the NRC to use principles of sound science in designating game species and establishing hunting seasons and regulations.

Back to Tomahawk for a second.

I fell into ordering a couple of traps from Chuck Smith, Northern Industries

http://www.snaresandtraps.com/

Don't know him from a hill of beans. He told me he is part of the Smith family that owns Tomahawk, but now is out on his own.

It is funny to me though that in all the cage trap threads on here, he, nor his company, is ever mentioned. Any thoughts?
Might be a good place to get Tomahawk style and quality traps for those who don't want to buy off Tomahawk due to the HSUS thing

Chuck is pretty active on Facebook I've talk to him he's got some great deals going I would buy off him . Got some catch pole deals going right now

Okay Pesky, let me get this straight. You hate Tomahawk because they basically sell a lot of cat traps. But if one of the original

owners ( Chuck Smith ) had a good deal going, "I would buy off him." Well, guess what? So would everyone else. That's kind of the way

that our economy works. If I remember correctly, ( And at my age, that's a crapshoot ) you really dislike Jim Comstock's cages. I

find them the most intelligent invention in years. ( And from what I've read, so are Mr. DeKalb's ) Here is something that I, for

one, find kind of amazing: The only people I haven't met, are the people whose cage I recommend the most. Jim and Judy Comstock.

Here is a BIG problem I have. I find it really. really, hard to dislike nearly everyone in our business. Honesty certainly seems to

be the best policy for people in our line if work. May that forever be the case!

Not the cats I have a problem with its any company being a sponsor at a HUSU convention really hits home when it's your state under attack . Speaking of chunk post from him earlier today

Northern Industries!

They don't have leg holds but everything else! Box traps, syringe poles, snare poles, snake tongs, animal grabbers, etc... They make everything in Tomahawk WI, the owner used to own Tomahawk Live Trap, so you know the quality is top notch but everything is 20% less then his old company but twice as good! No kidding. Use the code "trap15off" to get an additional 15% discount at checkout or when you call. Shop.snaresandtraps.com 7152242870.

Pesky, I don't quite know how to explain this in words that you will understand. I knew Mary and Greg Smith and got to know all of

their four offspring, except for the daughter and her husband who live in warrior's neck of the woods. Do I have a problem with any

of them? Absolutely not! You need to understand that we are all in a business. PETA called us and asked us if we would do a job for

them. Did we treat them as respectfully as any other customer? You bet! Do you think that if Chuck would get a huge order for catch

poles from HSUS, that he would turn it down? It is my firm belief that doing the best that we can for the so-called "enemy" is the

best advertising we can have. And I'm sure I dislike the HSUS as least as much as you do. Think about it.

there goes my attempt to bury this thread

Sorry Dave; on the bright side someone once said. "There is no such thing as bad publicity!"

Oh....I forgot about that one. It is actually helping both entities. Carry on.

Wink, I gotta know: what did PeTA hire you to do?...'cuz I want some a their big bucks!

Wink, I gotta know: what did PeTA hire you to do?...'cuz I want some a their big bucks!

They wanted me to set up a ladder so one of their people could get a cat out of a tree. They were willing to pay my regular service call just to bring the ladder. Then they found out that the tree was on private property and nothing ever happened. But I do know that they made a bid stink in the paper about the local Humane Society being of no help at all while a "local firm" was very pleasant.

Geez...you couldn't make that up...
The good news is, you're now in favor with PeTA! (As opposed to me, who has worked in the circus and animal laboratory fields, plus now of course, WC.)

Dave, being a jerk, with the so-called enemy, doesn't fit you either. I have discovered over the years, that if you ever get into a

one-on-one conversation with most of the rank and file from PETA and HSUS, that our objectives are the same. ( And I dare anyone of

you to disagree ) The majority of the PETA and HSUS people feel that "animals should be saved". Well. Duh! If they weren't saved, I

would lose the best occupation I ever had, along with most of my family. It is just as much my fault that people don't understand

the workings of wildlife as anyone. I may know just as much or more as the best trained wildlife technician about our native

wildlife. I caught the first coyote in our area and I caught the first beaver and maybe a lot of other firsts. Maybe it's time that

I, and perhaps a lot of you guys as well, start answering questions from our youngsters so that they grow up more intelligent than

their parents. ( Okay, all of my three offspring have teaching degrees. Can you tell? ) Rant over.

Paul get's the reply of the day...

Paul:
I have to agree, one on one. But have a conversation with a group of 20 or more and see how you make out.
Education and the truth is the answer. Also take the big money/wages out of the organization and see how different thing would be. JMO.

Hey- speaking of Tomahawks - here's a good way to help 'em design a trap the way you, the customer, wants it.
Send your suggestions to generalorganizer@nwcoa.com. It's truly a win-win sityation for WCO's.

Ok thanks I'll send that right over for the win win

Wow, who would have thought that Pesky would be the first to reply? Good work!

I live right down the road in Woodruff, been to the shop in Harshaw several times buying supplies for my ADC business. Always pleasant people, and good gear. I was planning on a business expansion this coming spring into a much larger scale as things are starting to take off for me business wise. Sadly Tomahawk trap company will no longer be getting my business. Partnering with HSUS is good business sense, but it is also a slap in the face of the very people that have supported the company for years.

Wouldn't you want a strong vibrant supplier?

Besides, this thread really is not meeting the spirit of of the TMAN mission. It makes this bunch look to be similar to your HSUS buddies. Just keep fighting among yourselves.
http://www.trapperman.com/trapperman/mission_statement01.html

AHHHHHH I see...the moment some one speaks the truth about the matter that tomahawk is holding hands with HSUS the post is attempted to be removed..............As I see it. I bought traps and supplies from them to help me do my job. to make my living I supported them. Now come to find out at the same time, they were supporting the biggest anti group in the world. They in fact have been supporting the very people who are working daily doing everything in their power to put me out of business and in the food stamp line. I take that as a slap in the face, a showing of complete disrespect and disregaurd to the very people who have made the company what it is today through our support. now they have stabbed us in the back. Frankly they will not see a single cent more of my money to support their company, and I will be spreading the word far and wide to everyone I know that tomahawk Live trap company is directly attempting to put them out of business by supporting the HSUS

The moment someone speaks the truth? This thread has been alive for awhile. I just think ya'll are fools for trying to damage a supplier.

I know that links are not permitted by this site....so google this search term:

Aversive Conditioning Products Many commercial products teach wild animals not to come back, helping you humanely resolve conflicts

While you are at it...google this phrase too:
If you live in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area and have a problem with wildlife, we can solve it—humanely and effectively

This is cool stuff! Really....

http://www.birdbarrier.com/content/201101/ovocontrol-receives-hsus-award/

Do you all make donations of traps to trapping organizations like you donated to the humane society international for the research they held on abaco island in 2001?

I've got to admit that last post has me confused. I've never heard of that particular research and I don't know of anyone who has

donated any of their traps to anyone. A kidney maybe, but traps, never.

Paul, I am the exception, I donated a 6 x 6 AES live trap, to the Maine Bear Hunters Assn. auction. When I get my s... together this Winter, I plan to try to donate, at least one trap, to any cause I deem worthy. Maybe this doesn't fit this thread. IDC.
As a business owner, I support Tomahawk, I may not have made the same decision but if you have a product, you need to sell it.

I googled tomahawk live trap HSUS, because I didn't think it would be true, but on the first page of the google search a Humane Society International PDF file was listed on a summary of a research study on abaco island in 2001 and tomahawk live trap donated 4 large animal traps to aid research in this study.

Sure. Good proof that the organization approves of the equipment you use. Sounds like a win.

Good point does tomahawk only give to HSUS ?

Or wait a min look back thru the post tomahawk said they don't donate to HSUS but google is saying different

Would you mind elaborating on the partnership/sponsorship you have with the NJCACOA? My question is I guess, if you are a sponsor/partner of an organization such as that along with HSUS and ASPCA as sponsors/partners with the group you are, how does that work exactly? When you are pitching your sales to trappers do you say you support us and when pitching your sale to people against animal cruelty and members of such organizations, you tell them we are wrong? I just don't see how you can be associated with both opposite ends of the spectrum without a conflict of interest.

Bottom line is the company is supporting the very people who are trying to put me, and millions of others out of business...Didn't HSUS just get exposed for shipping huge amounts of cash into their Cayman Island accounts ? Is not HSUS currently in a battle in the state of MI throwing millions of donation dollars at trying to shut us down ? Is not HSUS in a currant battle in the state of Maine throwing millions of donation dollars around there trying to shut us down ? Did not HSUS just pay out $15.75 million as a settlement in a federal racketeering lawsuit ? Has not HSUS recently had their charity rating stripped from them by charity navigator ? Is not HSUS currently sponsoring initiatives in several states and at the federal level against hunting, fishing, trapping, circus's , farming, even the simple act of animal ownership ? Has not HSUS demonstrated over and over again that they are corrupt and through their very actions demonstrated they are in realty nothing more than domestic terrorists with their physical attacks on legal, ethical, and humane businesses ? I am sorry, but the evidence is clear and overwhelming. Tomahawk Live trap Co. is currently holding hands with the devil and speaking out of both sides of it's mouth thinking of nothing more than it's bottom line financial statement. I will NOT support a company who in turn supports a eco terrorist group who wants to put myself and millions of others out of business. Further I will be steering everyone I know away from any form of business with Tomahawk. Birds of a feather flock together, and Tomahawk has now shown their true stripes.

This page is telling folks to call them. Now that's support for your ADC pro.
http://www.havahart.com/advice/animal-trapping/expert-tips

The truth is that there are not enough trappers to support the manufacturers and they are better off selling to homeowners. Selling to HSUS is a smart move.

Well we now have more reason to keep calling them havajunk.

Guys, I think I can speak for them but Dekalb and Comstock have never crawled in bed with HSUS, though Comstock does business with tomahawk.

UMMM excuse me I guess I fail to see the logic in your comment DaveK. I mean sure on a financial spread sheet selling to HSUS is a good thing, it makes business sense. However, donating equipment and money, supporting a group that has the goal of shutting down several industries on a world scale....Supporting a company who wishes to put millions of people out of work by banning any type of any animal usage... A TRAP company supporting a eco terrorist group that fights and protests against trappers and trapping......I am sorry, but I fail to see the logic in that. Tomahawk company sees nothing but the dollar signs in this. By the way HSUS is against home owners purchasing and using these type traps as that is through default making it okay for a individual to have a active roll in wildlife control, and the control of any animals causing damage such as feral cats. HSUS, and HSUS alone should be called in to handle those type of problems as HSUS knows very well what to do with a feral cat AFTER they receive their donation money first of course with their, what is it ? OH something over 90% ethuni....KILL RATE---------------This is a bad joke. it's like a gun manufacture lobbying for more gun control. Eventually they will get the gun control legislation and thus put themselves right out of business. Unless of course Tomahawk plans to sell their products exclusively to HSUS, and perhaps PETA

As an industry, how far have we come from 1998? Looks like CC made a nice start. If I read into this correctly, there is an image problem...and that feeds into the strength of HSUS. But, go ahead and keep fighting with yourselves...

google this phrase:
The National Animal Damage Control Association (NADCA), in conjunction with the International Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies (IAFWA), has undertaken the task of developing proposed minimum licensing standards for nuisance wildlife control operators.

DaveK that's right just keep trying to change the subject and lead everyone around to all these sites and reports. Whatever, fact is a TRAP company is supporting a anti trapping group. I find the idea nauseating, and very scary. How about Duke, MB, Sleepy Creek, Victor, Bridger and all the others join hands with HSUS and PETA. Allow HSUS and PETA to dictate what kind, and style traps are to be made and at what cost. PETA and HSUS of course would buy up all these newly developed traps...........How about a better idea and lets just get this over with. How about all the state wildlife agencies, all state DNR's be required to get in bed with and compromise with HSUS and PETA over all forms of wildlife management. Then we can live by the rule of emotion, and MONEY and forget about whats best for the actual animal populations, forget about any meaningful management. It is after all, all about the dollars right ? Or at least that's what Tomahawk Live Trap co. is thinking...hold hands with the highest bidder so when they put us out of business at least they will be rich, and don't worry about who they stabbed in the back to get there. What you say is a image problem---Have you noticed the fight in the state of Maine at the moment about HSUS wanting to stop any form of bear management ? Have you noticed the HSUS in MI trying to stop any form of wolf management. Yeah, I guess it is in fact a image problem HSUS wants to portray any form of any animal management in the image of savage, in-humane, un-ethical, cruel behavior and put a end to it all. That is a image problem for everyone in any animal related industry be it farming, horse back riding, chicken ranching, or trapping that HSUS is falsely propagating, and profiting from, and now Tomahawk live trap co. it seems has jumped on that MONEY train as well

Tomahawk Live trap co. is attempting to play things much like a slick minded, greasy mouthed polition. Example...Say the forest industry want to cut a bunch of trees....IF PO votes NO on it he gets money streaming in from the eco people, save the tree's, save the earth people, all the environmental groups jump in and make campaign controbutions.....Now if PO votes YES he gets money streaming in from the logging, and paper industry and gets to boast about job creation, and industry and union campaign controbutions............Who ever has the biggest pocket book gets their vote, their agenda rolling........Tell me tomahawk isn't doing that very thing, but worse as they are trying to double dip on both camps...we'll get money from HSUS and hope that nobody in ADC finds out about it so we can get their money too.....Sorry doesn't work that way in my play book

^^^^^ double dip? Tomahawk company is a great business with great ethics. They make their living by selling a product. I say keep on keepin on.

HumaneWatch,Protect the harvest, and u.s. sportsmen's Alliance

Paranoia...

Imagine a world where any type of animal control was banned for a year or two. The public would be living with rats, coons, bats....all in perfect harmony?

Well Bud when HSUS rolls into mn and wi over the next couple years looking to end wolf management will see if your way of thinking changes any

Don't think we have an image problem? Look at last years tv programming. Only reason that it is not booming this year...is the Alaskan family stole the show.

I honestly do not have a problem with tomahawk selling things to people against us. Where the problem comes in for me is when tomahawk donates to Humane Society International to help support their research and they become a sponsor and/or partner of organizations that if they held an appreciation banquet for their supporters, tomahawk, HSUS, and ASPCA would all be at the banquet being thanked for all that they do for them.

YES we do have a image issue, that groups like HSUS and PETA are propagating and profiting from. I am not the most intelligent man, but I am not the dimmest bulb on the tree either. I can't believe you guys are failing to see the end game in all this. HSUS has had success ending ALL forms of trapping in some states with the exception of cage trapping. Now Tomahawk of course from a business stand point would stand to make a lot of profit from something like that if it was become nation wide law. SO Tomahawk figured lets join hands with HSUS and further their cause, their agenda to get ALL forms of trapping banned except for cage trapping, we make cages so we stand to make a bundle. That's it END GAME a nation wide ban of ALL trapping except for cages being propagated by HSUS in conjuction with Tomahawk Live trap Co. ....Now of course END GAME for HSUS is the banning of ALL form of traps, even cages, but Tomahawk will be rich beyond their dreams by then.............Only flaw is trappers are going to know who is responsible, and who helped have their tools banned. Sure when forced they will switch to cages, BUT they wont be Tomahawk cages

OH and peskyC I know HSUS is gonna roll into WI about the wolf seasons here. It is coming, but why would that change my mind about this at all....PLEASE for the love of all outdoors tell me you are not suggesting that Wisconsin revamp it's sound scientific wolf management practices and compromise with HSUS over the issue and use emotion over science. Sounded like you want WI to compromise there, (give up things) in the management plan...HMMMMMMM just who's side are you guys on ?

OOPS PeskyC I thought that was directed at me, my apologies

I have another question now.. On the tax forms of HSUS that are public to view, why is the company name listed as Deming Animal Guardians/Tomahawk Live Trap Company and not just Tomahawk Live Trap Company?

As a group, we propagate our own image. Others are just profiting off it. If the image was cleaned up, who would profit and who would be impacted?

Tomahawk probably is not thinking as long term as you think. They are just selling traps to willing buyers...and marketing to a broad audience.

Is it "just selling" when the company teams up and begins sponsoring/partnering with the buyers?

No. That is marketing.

Listen, you could total the annual trap purchases of the top 5 largest adc companies in the top 10 markets, and it would be a drop on the bucket. They couldn't open the doors or hire people.

Think about it. Maybe there are 10 operators in 30 states each making $100k in sales. That would be $30 mil in sales. If they spent a whopping 5% of sales on traps....the entire market would be 150k. No room to fuss....