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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558515
06/21/16 10:49 AM
06/21/16 10:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,700
Three Lakes,WI 73
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corky Offline
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Three Lakes,WI 73
Originally Posted By: handitrapper
MarshRAT; So are you saying that wolves aren't the major reason for the deer herd reduction? If not, then what? CWD? Harsh winters? Over Harvest? DNR management?

Although all the above can contribute. I VOTE WOLVES!!


Exactly. Unless you live in the northern forest you will have a difficult time comprehending the effect wolves have on the deer population up here.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Taximan] #5558545
06/21/16 11:45 AM
06/21/16 11:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Taximan
"There is an organization in Idaho that will pay you 500 dollars towards expenses that are incurred for every wolf that is shot or trapped. Wolves shot during big game season don't count because they figure you will shoot them anyway. "

I'm not sure that is still in effect.

Murse,you can hunt and trap wolves i MT and ID.You need to take a class,to trap.


Foundation for wildlife management it's called. I just looked it up, says there still active.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558548
06/21/16 11:48 AM
06/21/16 11:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
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WI
Originally Posted By: handitrapper
MarshRAT; So are you saying that wolves aren't the major reason for the deer herd reduction? If not, then what?


Habitat is the short answer. I would argue that for most species, this is the case. Wasn't but a short time ago, our northern deer population was high. Too high in many places. This has had a negative impact on the overall habitat. Over browsing causes serious long term damage. Add in many of our northern forests are maturing. This leaves vast segments of the northern part of the state as really poor habitat for deer.

We used to have a farm that we shot ag deer on. You would see a line of a hundred deer coming to the hay field at night. Now you are lucky to see 10 and yet the deer are still starving in the winter. Even on relatively easy winters in ag land. They changed the habitat and it will take years for it to recover. One could argue the wolves are are a blessing here.

Our northern healthy adult deer are surviving based on that study done by the DNR. Where they struggle is coming out of winter. The guys adjusting the habitat and also putting in food plots have figured this out. Why are their results so different than the rest?

Interestingly enough, I was told that one of the reasons that the wolf tracking count has gotten better is because they are doing more to track these locations around private land that have improved the habitat. The wolves are not leaving those herds of deer that have taken up residency there, yet their deer hunting is getting better even with an exploding wolf population. How does one explain that?

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: WIMarshRAT] #5558555
06/21/16 12:02 PM
06/21/16 12:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,662
Wi.
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Diggerman Offline
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Originally Posted By: WIMarshRAT
Originally Posted By: handitrapper
MarshRAT; So are you saying that wolves aren't the major reason for the deer herd reduction? If not, then what?


Habitat is the short answer. I would argue that for most species, this is the case. Wasn't but a short time ago, our northern deer population was high. Too high in many places. This has had a negative impact on the overall habitat. Over browsing causes serious long term damage. Add in many of our northern forests are maturing. This leaves vast segments of the northern part of the state as really poor habitat for deer.

We used to have a farm that we shot ag deer on. You would see a line of a hundred deer coming to the hay field at night. Now you are lucky to see 10 and yet the deer are still starving in the winter. Even on relatively easy winters in ag land. They changed the habitat and it will take years for it to recover. One could argue the wolves are are a blessing here.

Our northern healthy adult deer are surviving based on that study done by the DNR. Where they struggle is coming out of winter. The guys adjusting the habitat and also putting in food plots have figured this out. Why are their results so different than the rest?

Interestingly enough, I was told that one of the reasons that the wolf tracking count has gotten better is because they are doing more to track these locations around private land that have improved the habitat. The wolves are not leaving those herds of deer that have taken up residency there, yet their deer hunting is getting better even with an exploding wolf population. How does one explain that?

One would explain that the same way you wrote that, with a bunch of generalizations, hearsay ,and self proclaimed "facts" written in such a way as to lend credence to your story. Not one fact, not one link to a fact.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558558
06/21/16 12:10 PM
06/21/16 12:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,744
McGrath, AK
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"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Not being in WI, I am obviously at a disadvantage here but........it's very likely that your wolf population is expanding AND dispersing. So it is possible that the food plots and hunting are improving in some areas at the same time the wolf population is increasing.. the excess wolves are just dispersing.

Generally wolves attain a body size that allows them to take their main prey species. They don't get bigger because it takes more food to run the larger body. The same works with overall wolf numbers in each pack. There is an optimum pack size that maximizes each wolf's ability to survive on the available prey. If the pack gets larger, the law of diminishing returns kicks in...each wolf gets less.

There are so many variables in this equation that I think one has to consider all of them as working in concert. Change one variable and it will have an effect on all the other inputs.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558564
06/21/16 12:22 PM
06/21/16 12:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,495
Wisconsin
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Wisconsin
Ditto on what white17 mentioned. So many variables with land, food, predators, all make up an ecosystem that is changing as time moves on. This is something wildlife and land managers have a uphill battle predicting what is happening in the future and trying to keep stable animal population and land ecosystems.


RdFx
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558588
06/21/16 12:44 PM
06/21/16 12:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
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WI
Pick a point Diggerman and we can explore the "logic". See if it holds any water or is only hot air. It wouldn't be the first time I was just full of hot air.

That said, I think White's post above is the same thought process that made me think we needed to reexamine the goal of 350 or less wolves in the state. I really think that goal is outdated. As much as our current population of 850-900 wolves is completely off the mark.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558594
06/21/16 12:48 PM
06/21/16 12:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,744
McGrath, AK
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white17 Online content

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Here's one problem I have with the current estimates.

I think your DNR is making a mistake by including 'sightings' by hunters in their estimates.

We have no idea ( and neither do they) how many times the same wolf/wolves are seen by different people in different locations.

So I think their methods should be improved


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558638
06/21/16 01:48 PM
06/21/16 01:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
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WI
I am assuming that Diggerman didn't have issue with my comment about the forests maturing. Interesting breakdown of our forests:
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/ForestBusinesses/documents/WisconsinForestResources.pdf

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558669
06/21/16 02:20 PM
06/21/16 02:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
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WI
Guessing there is no issue with the deer over browsing having long term impacts? Here is a study on it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378112711007900

I know it was done across the big river but I am guessing it has some truth buried in it.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558671
06/21/16 02:29 PM
06/21/16 02:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,808
WI
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handitrapper Offline OP
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I agree the trees are maturing. But they are also being managed thru timber harvest along with new growth. Giving ample food supply for the deer herds to grow. But that's not gonna happen until wolf populations are brought under control. Wolf populations are growing stronger in central forest zones too Why because there are more deer for the S.O.B's to kill. Just look how screwed up the elk reintroduction is. Release a herd & watch the wolves get fat. They're like piranhas. And don't think anyone's BS is ever going to convince me otherwise.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558679
06/21/16 02:45 PM
06/21/16 02:45 PM
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MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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20 years ago, I went to an open forum involving the MN DNR and the public. At that time the DNR estimated the number of wolves in MN to be around 3300. That was nearly double what they considered a sustainable population. Since that time, they say the number of wolves have dropped to around 3000??? Except for a couple of years, wolves have been protected, but their numbers have declined by 300 in 20 years? In the words of Gomer Pyle, "We may be dumb, but we ain't stupid!"


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558767
06/21/16 05:00 PM
06/21/16 05:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,933
WI
WIMarshRAT Offline
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WI
Not saying we don't need to reduce the population of wolves. Quite the opposite. Just saying that the drop from 50% of acres to less than 30% of acres now 40 years old or less is a pretty significant change across the landscape. Until 2014, we had seen a steady decline in number of acres less than 20 years old--where you get your most gain.

As far as elk, most saw the issues coming. Personally, I think we can get the elk to flourish without going to 350 wolves in the state. But at present levels, they are nothing more than an expensive snack for the wolves. Even I am not sure why they thought they could drop in a prey species into the heart of a predators turf and think the prey species would have the upper hand at first.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: WIMarshRAT] #5558821
06/21/16 05:58 PM
06/21/16 05:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,662
Wi.
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Originally Posted By: WIMarshRAT
Pick a point Diggerman and we can explore the "logic". See if it holds any water or is only hot air. It wouldn't be the first time I was just full of hot air.

That said, I think White's post above is the same thought process that made me think we needed to reexamine the goal of 350 or less wolves in the state. I really think that goal is outdated. As much as our current population of 850-900 wolves is completely off the mark.
Hers a couple of points , the forests did not all mature in the last five years, however about a 1000 wolves did. Now I would like to believe that all they eat is sick deer and mice and they will get all get along with my dogs, but? I am not in love with deer, we have too dam many in southern Wisconsin but I have been witness to a decimation of the deer herd in the Clam lake area and the Elk population that has not increased in 5 years, The wolves have got a recipe for elk veal. If you were to(try) trap Fisher, Otter or hunt Bobcat you will get tired of tripping over wolf tracks looking for sign. That is my "logic".

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: rpmartin] #5558837
06/21/16 06:21 PM
06/21/16 06:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,619
Nebraska
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Nebraska
Originally Posted By: rpmartin
Originally Posted By: Murse1986
Wolves are foreign to me, but have always intrigued me. Is there anywhere in the lower 48 where you can legally trap/hunt? I've always considered trying to get one.


There is an organization in Idaho that will pay you 500 dollars towards expenses that are incurred for every wolf that is shot or trapped. Wolves shot during big game season don't count because they figure you will shoot them anyway.

A wolf tag is only $30, I think you can get 5 tags a year. Hunting license is $150 or so.

You have take a wolf trapping course and a nr trapping license I believe is $350.


Interesting. Thanks. I might have to research it a bit.


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Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: Diggerman] #5558863
06/21/16 06:47 PM
06/21/16 06:47 PM
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East-Central Wisconsin
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The national forests are ramping up their logging contracting rapidly as of late and that can add a lot more young growth for deer, grouse, hares and other species. There has been a significant reduction in harvest of the private forest lands of the north and the owners don't want disturbances in their woods and that has really caused a lot of habitat decline. The fact that millions of acres is now not good browse type habitat is one of the reasons that food plots are working well and probably needed if you want to have deer, but that brings the predators at ones door as well as the predators go where the prey goes.
If food sources stay low and wolf concentrations stay on the lower edge of their carrying capacity they will reproduce better and have less disease and then will probably expand their range further south faster where there is 2 to 3 times the food availability in the farmland areas. If we can't harvest and don't want wolves expanding into more populated areas we need to create more habitat for prey so the wolves are inclined to stay put more and come to a balance for the range(s) they are in. Many don't want wolves killing a limited deer population and I support those that want to see a better balance, but what we don't want is to have wolves move into areas where they can learn to eat things like corn etc. like coyotes have than the door could be open for lot more wolves than what our current numbers are at.

Bryce

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558893
06/21/16 07:28 PM
06/21/16 07:28 PM
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WI
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Been seeing wolves in waukesha county southern Wi for almost the last ten years not lots but seeing them talked to the warden who confirmed it had one check out a hay set last winter

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558895
06/21/16 07:32 PM
06/21/16 07:32 PM

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They're way over original management goals. KISS

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5558905
06/21/16 07:47 PM
06/21/16 07:47 PM
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WI
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The best way to get count on the population is to kill them all and count them no guessing then maybe deer hunting will improve up north again, its been terrible sense they have moved in. Then some genius puts them on the endangered species list Words that cant be said hear. The last 6 or 7 years seeing less than a 1/4 of the deer on the cameras almost no fawns. Its been bucks only for the last 4 or 5 years with no population increase. Hate seeing more wolves that deer when DEER hunting. I know that wolves are not the only factor in this issue but they are a very large percentage imo.

Re: Wisconsin Wolves [Re: handitrapper] #5559136
06/22/16 05:41 AM
06/22/16 05:41 AM
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WI
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Diggerman, isn't much of the Clam Lake area in the marten restoration area? Any issues if it is?

Lots of good info there Bryce. My worry is this ends up like beaver...We buy into this wolf hysteria like we did with beaver. It is tough to reverse once you get the train moving. I get that we want a lower population, but unless we are pulling back the reigns from the start, we lose control. The feds will be doing the taking while fur trappers get a minimal take.

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