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#6122591 - 01/12/18 11:21 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Trapper7 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 5768
Loc: MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Is the gun belt in addition to the belt that holds up your pants?
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Planned Parenthood to spend 30M on midterm elections. With that kind of spare cash, why are we subsidizing them?

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#6122594 - 01/12/18 11:25 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Jim Frazier Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 578
Loc: Brown County Ohio
Agree with Trapperbill. I bought my belt from Hanks belts. It is a heavy duty belt and I really like it a lot.

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#6122597 - 01/12/18 11:27 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Trapper7]
trapperbill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 844
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Trapper7
Is the gun belt in addition to the belt that holds up your pants?
No Good leather gun belts you buy from holster makers. Dept. store belts don't cut it. Check out AG Custom Leather gun belts. All he makes are gun belts.. I also like Grizzle leather gun belts.I prefer horsehide myself. I should add if you have never worn a true gun belt by a holster maker and you finally buy one you will wonder how you made out before without one.It really takes the load off


Edited by trapperbill (01/12/18 11:33 AM)

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#6122607 - 01/12/18 11:36 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 293
Loc: PA
We have several shooting ranges opening up here in NEPA that offer a full line of firearms for people to try out. Think of it like a bowling alley- you rent the lane and then get to choose which ball to roll down it. Same idea in these ranges. You rent the time and pay for the ammo, but then you have carte blanche.

As far as deciding on a carry gun, I always recommend to people to only carry what they are 100% confident in themselves, and not what the popular decision of everyone else is. I have a favorite hammer, I've used it forever. I can drive finish brads or 20 pennys, no problem. If I use your hammer, it feels different to me and I'm not as accurate or effective with it. My hammer may not have the brand name that yours does, may not weigh the same, might look older, but I will swing it against anyone any day of the week.

Hopefully you never have to draw your firearm in self defense, but if you do, you need to have 100% confidence in it. This includes your method of carry, your method of draw and your ability to be effective during discharge.

Buying a gun does not make you safe, quite the opposite. (you draw it and don't use it, the bad guy will take it and use it on you). Being confident and competent with your gun is what makes the difference.

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#6122612 - 01/12/18 11:46 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 2769
Loc: Green County Wisconsin
there is nothing Wrong with the LC9 for a sub compact especially if you have the LC9s pro that removes the magazine disconnect

I carry the original LC9 the double action the LC9s is striker fired

it sounds like you need holsters , the thing about holsters is everyone gets a few , I make my own so I have even more

we could talk about larger guns I like my Glock 19 for it's capacity but I think NY limits you to 10 rounds or less any way

9mm is a good choice it brings nearly the power of any other handgun but in a less expensive to buy round for practice

all good carry ammo is hovering around a dollar a round in most cases


modes of carry you can do with a LC9 , I pocket carry it in a Alabama holster company Kydex pocket holster , you can carry IWB in the wast band , an Ailien gear is a good but not bank breaking option for this or you can carry OWB outside the waste band

the Belt should not be overlooked , you need a good belt even the light 17.1 oz gun with 4-5 more ounces of ammo hanging on a belt all day will make a poor quality belt sag or twist. the belt needs to hold it's shape with weight on it especially if your going to run a pancake style OWB with a high center of gravity. this holds the gun up high and makes cover garments more easily conceal the gun .

time to ask yourself some questions ,

Am I putting this gun on and wearing it all day every where I go ?
or do I need to be able to take it off and secure it soem places I go ?

if you answered that you will need to take the gun off you may want to use a paddle type holster

the last thing I want to do is have a Negligent Discharge when I am out and have to take my gun off and put it back on SO I never remove it from the holster if I don't have to , I take it off with the holster , if I am in and out a lot pocket carry the holster comes right out of the pocket stays with the gun and I can secure both , or OWB with a paddle

for training purposes I recomend an OWB your going to be in and out of the holster , make it one that is easy to holster , ridged be it leather or kydex the gun should move with you and not bounce around

her is a Kydex pancake pancake means it is 2 peices of Kydex sandwich molded around the gun , I cut belt slots in this one but it could have belt slides that secure with screws also

the gun goes in an out easy enough for me but is held firmly enough that if the holster is turned upside down and given a shake the gun will not come out. at minimum it should not come out when turned upside down, you shoudl have to overcome the tension holding it in to draw.

this slight leaning forward angle is called FBI cant because the fbi figured out when your sitting in a car or at a desk you get poked less in the side if it is tipped forward a bit

the LC9 is thin it hides easily with an undershirt / tank top and a slightly oversize cover garment be it a t-shirt or button up shirt left untucked

I like the Duluth Trading long tail T's because I am already tall and most t-shirts would show my belly but ideally I can raise my arms over my head to reach a high shelf at the grocery and not lift my shirt above the bottom edge of my holster I like it if raising my hands over my head my shirt still covers all + an inch or two of the holster.



start with an OWB because you will need it for training , it is January and that gives you time to get other deeper concealment options later as things warm up.

next thing you need more magazines , 3 is a minimum for training more is better , stuffing mags is wasting instructor time

a mag carrier for the weak hand is ideal especially if your instructor will have you running move and reload drills

practice up shooting basic target first , figure out your trigger control , work on shooing an accurate group on target at say 20 feet the LC9 is easily capable of a better than 6 inch group at 21 feet but get to where you can shoot a 6 inch group at 21 feet , dry fire can be very usefull in this , concentrate ont he front sight on the target and sqweeeeeeeeze keep your sight on target , repeat , repeat , repeat till the gun is on target all through your trigger pull and the click. then laod up and repeat till you have the group

holster and un-holster dry a bunch of times as in no ammo

finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target

practice that as soon as your gun clears holster your muzzle moves forward and your elbow down , this is not the greatest video but basically explains retention , I don't worry about the ejection port pointing out , just pull gun out elbow down muzzle toward target , you can shoot from that position or you can continue right up into a 2 handed grip and push out to shoot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqQAgtNMwDY
this guy re-holsters fast , no need to re-holster fast , do it slow , deliberate make sure no clothing is getting in the way and you are not pointing the gun at yourself finger is of course off the trigger , if the police show up and you haven't re-holstered yet no worries before they get out of the car lay the gun on the ground put your hands up it is much more likely you will have to call the police and wait for them to show up, look around you with gun at low ready , when the area is safe re-holster




Edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE (01/12/18 11:56 AM)
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America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.

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#6122619 - 01/12/18 11:57 AM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Marty Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/13/14
Posts: 10178
Loc: North East Kansas
I know a few people who have gotten ccl to 'protect' themselves.....they are not 'gun' people. They take the ccl class and get a gun, take it to the range a few times and are then 'ready'..... laugh

Just my opinion but they would be better off buying good running shoes.

Anyway....if you carry and need to employ the handgun in a public place at close quarters, most documented incidents are inside 15', you need to have a plan set for that now.....

Your accountable for every bullet and what every bullet damages...including bystanders. So....it is good to understand that in a public place where other folks are around its best to shoot the bad guy low in the pelvis...at close quarters the bullet will not travel very far if you miss or it goes thru the bad guy....if you aim high, upper body or head...a 9mm will only drop 6"-8" in 100 yards....if your shooting down to the pelvis the bullet will hit the ground quickly and loose most of its power...multiple hits to the pelvis will quickly end the threat. Lower pelvis usually circumvents most body armor also.

Anyway....the average person who buys a gun for protection and the carries it is like a newbi who buys some traps and plays with them at the house....never uses them in the field and now is a 'trapper'.

Proper training is pretty important and if you employ a gun in a public place you really need to be aware of the background.



_________________________
"pressure makes diamonds" George S. Patton

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#6122625 - 01/12/18 12:02 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 2769
Loc: Green County Wisconsin
do not worry about the safety on the lC9 moving to the fire position while holstered , as long as you have a good holster that covers the trigger the holster is the safety

the LC9s pro completely did away with the safety the majority of handguns carried by law enforcement today have no external safety

you get in the practice of your draw stroke thumbing down that safety but if it is already off it isn't hurting anything mine has always done the same thing , only time I use the safety is for when I am holstering

I shoot a number of Glocks that have no external sefety , it is fine.
_________________________
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.

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#6122815 - 01/12/18 03:56 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Tattoodlineman Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/17
Posts: 77
Loc: Central/Adirondacks NYS
Good lord just getting back on. You guys are awesome! Thank you

After reading everyoneís responses I think Iím going to stick to my LC9s for my concealed carry and my self defense firearm training classes. As many have stated I have a good relationship with my LC9s so why change now. Iíve shot thousands of rounds through it and am very accurate with it and more importantly I am comfortable with it.

Iíll check out some of the CC holsters yíall have recommended later tonight when I get home. I believe my firearm instructor is starting me off OWB.

Iíve been shooting shotguns and rifles since I was a young man, and I never imagined Iíd be into pistols, until I had one pointed at my temple with my 16yr old daughter sitting next to me in the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) city two years ago. It was a 20 second life changing event for me.

I purchased my pistol strictly for myself and family protection, but here I am a year later and I love it. I want more! The wife and kids also enjoy shooting pistol as well.

Greencountypete- thanks for that link to you tube! And all that info. Must have taken u a while to type all that thank you.
_________________________
Criticism is the death gurgle of a non achiever

5 yr apprentice trapper totals
Coyote- 34
Red fox- 2
Grey fox- 9
Fisher- 19
Bobcat- 1
Coon- 14
Crow- 2
Turkey-1

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#6122825 - 01/12/18 04:04 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: varmintshooter]
Tattoodlineman Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/17
Posts: 77
Loc: Central/Adirondacks NYS
Originally Posted By: varmintshooter
You might have to drive a little but I am sure there is a gun shop/ shooting range somewhere close to you. . Find a place to shoot before buying and don't get caught up in cal. sizes


Iím not a gun range guy at all, my friends and I built a sweet set up on my 200 acre property for just about any type of firearm shooting. Thatís allllllll we do my friend. I figured why go pay to shoot at a range when I can do it right at home.
_________________________
Criticism is the death gurgle of a non achiever

5 yr apprentice trapper totals
Coyote- 34
Red fox- 2
Grey fox- 9
Fisher- 19
Bobcat- 1
Coon- 14
Crow- 2
Turkey-1

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#6122829 - 01/12/18 04:06 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: white17]
Tattoodlineman Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/17
Posts: 77
Loc: Central/Adirondacks NYS
Originally Posted By: white17
That would definitely concern me about that safety !!

I carry a 1911 and have never had anything like that happen. Also, with the 1911 there is the added security of the grip safety. It is single action though and you may not like it. For me, I would never go to a double action. So it's all what you are comfortable with.


Could you explain why you prefer single action over double? Iíve never shot a single action. Thanks
_________________________
Criticism is the death gurgle of a non achiever

5 yr apprentice trapper totals
Coyote- 34
Red fox- 2
Grey fox- 9
Fisher- 19
Bobcat- 1
Coon- 14
Crow- 2
Turkey-1

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#6122846 - 01/12/18 04:33 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
BigBob Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 14293
Loc: St. Louis Co, Mo
Well, I AIN'T skinny, far from it, AND I prefer a strong side RH Cross Draw carry for my 1911 or S&W Mod 60, and am having the Devil's own time finding holsters too. Most will have a RH forward Rake, that's totally backwards for a Cross Draw.
A) Buy the widest, thickest belt that will fit your pants.
B) Whichever holster you pick, cinch the belt up as tight as you can stand it.
C) PRACTICE the draw, ie: getting the laundry out of the way so's you can get your draw hand on the grip. That's why I like the Cross draw. LH moves shirt etc, then draws spare mags, RH grabs the pistol and draws. Much the same as RH shoulder holster, which is pretty handy and comfortable, bu is a problem when going inside from cold to inside warm.
D) A local range has all kinds of pistols you can rent to try, not sure about holsters
E) Don't forget about those extra mags/ammo, they need to be carried too.
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#6122861 - 01/12/18 04:47 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 2769
Loc: Green County Wisconsin
if you have a good handle on accurately shooting the gun , then just some more practice and drills.


a drill / test that really tests the essential handgun skills is called EL-Prez

the back story is Col. James Cooper who trained Marines then foreign secret service and then opened gunsite academy broke down handgun skills to hitting the target , the draw , the reload and target acquisition.

3 targets about a yard apart left right at 21 feet , for the sub compact you could move them to 15 feet if you want

with your back to the targets hands up surrender position you get the GO command or timer beep you turn, draw , fire 2 rounds on each target reload , fire 2 more rounds on each target

your goal is to turn draw put 12 rounds on 3 targets with a reload in 10 seconds or less you start slow only keeping track of your time to keep speeding up just a little bit each time if you miss a target slow down , figure out where your wasting time , how you can make it faster , when you first start 10 seconds seems really fast but it is doable

this gets you moving , drawing ,transitioning targets , using the controlled pairs and reloading


word of caution make very sure you have turned to face the targets before clearing the holster so that your not waving the gun around , establish grip as your turning but do not pull till facing the targets for safety reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTuycSFYk4M

Army marksmanship unit does great videos , the only thing I would say different than how he shows it , is while that is faster ( he is a paid competitor) , practice turning weak had toward the target , because if the threat isn't a distance away you may have to block with your weak and and fire from retention.

sometimes what you do in competition to buy speed isn't what you do for good defensive tactics , so you decide am I using competition to be a competition shooter or to become a better defensive shooter who doesn't care about the prize but wants to win at life.

steel targets like those in the video must be shot at 24 feet or farther to be safe or the bullet fragments can still be moving to fast and they hurt and draw blood or worse safety glasses are a must.
don't shoot dimpled steel , it sends the bullet fragments back at you at a different angle and you get bigger chunks moving faster , the scar on my leg says that is no fun.

you can cut card board 16x16 squares basically half a pizza box make an 8 inch square in the center with a pen so you can't really see it from 15-21 feet away any hit is good in the square is better if you can keep them there with the speed.

you want to get used to shooting at the middle without really aiming at a given point


Edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE (01/12/18 04:57 PM)
_________________________
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.

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#6122870 - 01/12/18 04:53 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Jumperzee Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 1004
Loc: North Central Idaho
Good thread. I was in a similar place a couple years ago and enjoyed the research and skill development.

Another decent/affordable holster option is from Alien Gear. I got the cloak tuck 3.0 and like it a lot for my XD Mod 2, although there a lots of good options.

Regardless of your weapon/holster choice, something not discussed above is lots and lots and lots and lots of deliberate practice drawing from concealment. Start slow, use good mechanics and do a gazillion dry fire/snap cap reps to build the muscle memory that hopefully you'll never have to use. Then move up to live fire. There's a lot of good tutorials on Youtube but don't get too carried away on the uber tactial speed stuff. Fun to watch, but not practical for everyday use. Lucky gunner ammo has a good one for the everyday dude to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rsR2E-kUFA Haley Strategic has a lot of good stuff too that goes into body mechanics and mindset. Worth taking a look if you're into that sort of thing.

Have fun and good luck!

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#6122878 - 01/12/18 05:06 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 2769
Loc: Green County Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Tattoodlineman
Originally Posted By: white17
That would definitely concern me about that safety !!

I carry a 1911 and have never had anything like that happen. Also, with the 1911 there is the added security of the grip safety. It is single action though and you may not like it. For me, I would never go to a double action. So it's all what you are comfortable with.


Could you explain why you prefer single action over double? Iíve never shot a single action. Thanks


single action autos like the 1911 have a shorter , lighter release only trigger pull

a striker your moving the triker back some then releasing it forward , a double your moving the hammer back then it releases forward

less motion with trigger finger makes most people more accurate as they are less likely to move the gun off target pulling the trigger. there are strikers that the trigger releases the striker forward and it is returned to a ready to fire position again when the slide comes back.

but most strikers your pulling the striker back some then releasing this is how the Glock works.the striker/firing pin is held in a neutral position under no spring tension on a Glock till you squeeze the trigger then you add the spring tension and release the striker block just before the trigger breaks and the striker / firing pin slams forward.
_________________________
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.

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#6122941 - 01/12/18 06:01 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 24840
Loc: McGrath, AK
The Dozier drill is another practice set at Gunsite in addition to the one Pete describes above ( El Presidente ). It includes a couple things to increase the complexity and stress on the shooter.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/the-dozier-drill/


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Mean As Nails

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#6122967 - 01/12/18 06:26 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Jumperzee]
Tattoodlineman Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/17
Posts: 77
Loc: Central/Adirondacks NYS
Originally Posted By: Jumperzee
Regardless of your weapon/holster choice, something not discussed above is lots and lots and lots and lots of deliberate practice drawing from concealment. Start slow, use good mechanics and do a gazillion dry fire/snap cap reps to build the muscle memory that hopefully you'll never have to use. Then move up to live fire!


Nice
Yeah we practiced some of this at my basic firearm training course last month and I have been practicing almost daily.
Instructor said I should be able to act consistently and to efficiently get the gun into the fight and to keep practicing until my self defense course..
Funny, every time I practice this in the house, for some reason it makes my Rottweiler real uneasy. I have to lock him in a room.
_________________________
Criticism is the death gurgle of a non achiever

5 yr apprentice trapper totals
Coyote- 34
Red fox- 2
Grey fox- 9
Fisher- 19
Bobcat- 1
Coon- 14
Crow- 2
Turkey-1

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#6122985 - 01/12/18 06:37 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 24840
Loc: McGrath, AK
As Jumper says...lots of practice ! At least 100 presentations each day. Double check that the gun is unloaded !

Professional instruction is worth it's weight in gold. It will eliminate your bad habits and set you on the path of righteousness !! Shortens the learning curve immensely !
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Mean As Nails

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#6122988 - 01/12/18 06:39 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Marty Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/13/14
Posts: 10178
Loc: North East Kansas
For a carry gun I think a DAO is a lot safer....my daily is a P-250 DAO pistol and it has a recessed hammer that needs to cycle externally for it to fire. When re holstering during training(really anytime) I place my thumb behind the hammer.....if the trigger snags you will feel the hammer move and can stop what your doing. Longer trigger pull will be harder to accidently discharge.

JMO,YMMV.
_________________________
"pressure makes diamonds" George S. Patton

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#6122998 - 01/12/18 06:46 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 24840
Loc: McGrath, AK
I think what you are comfortable with is the safest. Trading back and forth between different carry guns is not a good idea IMO.

I carry my 1911 in condition 1. Round in the chamber and the hammer full back, and safety on (software won't allow correct term). Even if I dropped the piece and it hit muzzle down...it won't fire.

The one thing I would like is a loaded chamber indicator for exercises in the dark.
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Mean As Nails

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#6123005 - 01/12/18 06:51 PM Re: Concealed carry help [Re: Tattoodlineman]
Marty Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/13/14
Posts: 10178
Loc: North East Kansas
Glocks are known for discharging while being holstered...they call it glockleg... smile
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