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Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294184
08/04/18 12:28 PM
08/04/18 12:28 PM
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294185
08/04/18 12:32 PM
08/04/18 12:32 PM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294186
08/04/18 12:35 PM
08/04/18 12:35 PM
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Mike in A-town Offline
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As far as the Epi-Pen debacle... I agree. It's ridiculous. The epinephrine can't be patented, only the delivery mechanism can.

If someone can't develop a delivery device that doesn't infringe, but can compete, with what is already on the market we have some serious problems ahead of us.

If someone could invent a competitive product and market it at a much lower cost they would be a millionaire overnight.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294188
08/04/18 12:36 PM
08/04/18 12:36 PM
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virgil1972 Offline
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If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.

Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294189
08/04/18 12:40 PM
08/04/18 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
As far as the Epi-Pen debacle... I agree. It's ridiculous. The epinephrine can't be patented, only the delivery mechanism can.

If someone can't develop a delivery device that doesn't infringe, but can compete, with what is already on the market we have some serious problems ahead of us.

If someone could invent a competitive product and market it at a much lower cost they would be a millionaire overnight.

Mike

I freely admit I do not have all the answers and I would be happy to change my views if someone had a better way to lower cost. As of now health insurance is becoming the new "scrip", people are tied to their jobs because losing that job or starting your own business would mean losing your insurances. As Americans we love and promote freedom but if you are only left with the freedom to make bad decisions that being quit your job and lose your insurance or stay in a job you hate to keep your family protected then we need to reevaluate what is going on because being stuck in jobs that offer insurance is not freedom.

Re: Socialism [Re: virgil1972] #6294190
08/04/18 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: virgil1972
If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.


Or look at Japan who has first rate health care and has been single payer since the 60s.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294191
08/04/18 12:42 PM
08/04/18 12:42 PM
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.


What does the law state as far as providing health care to someone regardless of ability to pay? Common sense would tell me that it only applies to situations of immediate danger to life and health.

I don't have an issue with that.

But there must be some incentive for the person who receives that care to provide some sort of compensation for services rendered. As far as I know, turning any outstanding bills over for collection is the only choice most caregivers have.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294195
08/04/18 12:48 PM
08/04/18 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
What does the law state as far as providing health care to someone regardless of ability to pay? Common sense would tell me that it only applies to situations of immediate danger to life and health.

I don't have an issue with that.


Mike


Hospitals must stabilize patients with life or limb threatening injuries regardless of ability to pay at the present.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294198
08/04/18 12:58 PM
08/04/18 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: virgil1972
If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.


Or look at Japan who has first rate health care and has been single payer since the 60s.


I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294200
08/04/18 01:02 PM
08/04/18 01:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 12,294
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Online happy
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
I bet you lunch he will say those evil pill companies that should be doing research for free.


Have I given you the impression that I am a dye in the wool commie who drank the kool aid and now spews the official talking points? Or do I seem to be presenting what I know/believe in good faith asking for others opinions in a effort to gain knowledge to either change or solidify my opinion?


I would say mostly the latter, my apologies sir.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294202
08/04/18 01:04 PM
08/04/18 01:04 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.


Credit card companies come to mind. They are shafted all the time and absorb that sting by charging low scorers higher interest rates.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294203
08/04/18 01:07 PM
08/04/18 01:07 PM
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Good point Hobbie.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294204
08/04/18 01:08 PM
08/04/18 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


This is undoubtedly true, this is also why I said I would prefer a single payer system ran by the individual states as we have different politics etc throughout the country and keeping things "closer to home" would help alleviate tension and allow alterations within each system that better suited the populace.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294205
08/04/18 01:10 PM
08/04/18 01:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Can't really do that as some states would end up with all the givers and others all the takers and the fed would have to bail the taker states out.

Poor city folks rarely physically move out of their living situation. These are the folks using the healthcare system more often than those taking care of themselves because they have much to live for.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/04/18 01:15 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294207
08/04/18 01:10 PM
08/04/18 01:10 PM
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In addition I feel it is constitutionally sound for the individual states to set up programs such as health care but it from my understanding it would be a illegal overreach if the feds did it.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294214
08/04/18 01:22 PM
08/04/18 01:22 PM
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


This is undoubtedly true, this is also why I said I would prefer a single payer system ran by the individual states as we have different politics etc throughout the country and keeping things "closer to home" would help alleviate tension and allow alterations within each system that better suited the populace.


Japanese children tend to be grounded in reality from an early age...

https://youtu.be/hL5mKE4e4uU

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294271
08/04/18 03:30 PM
08/04/18 03:30 PM
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tjm Offline
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As long as doctors medical equipment manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies can be sued the costs of medical treatment will remain high, doesn't make any difference who pays.
I guess generally the insurance companies write the court mandated check, then they pass that cost and the legal and admin cost associated with it down to the insured provider who in turn adds on an admin cost and splits it up among the the patients.
Upfront cost bidding and publicly posted rates would possible only if indemnity waivers were included and insurance payment excluded.
The mere fact that insurance companies never pay the billed amount causes the providers to double or quadruple the amount billed so that after the insurance cuts the bill in half the provider still gets paid something.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294379
08/04/18 07:04 PM
08/04/18 07:04 PM
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Rejecting socialism in not anti social.


Economics 101: Wealth has to be earned. Legislation can transfer it from one person to another but cannot generate it.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295632
08/06/18 11:58 AM
08/06/18 11:58 AM
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How many of you anti-socialist sentenced your children to a free government operated (communism) school?


Who is John Galt?
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295680
08/06/18 01:19 PM
08/06/18 01:19 PM
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tjm Offline
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There are no anti socialists, just some government dependents don't realize they are dependent. Almost any one that posts here is taking advantage of some socialist government subsidized electricity and the food you ate very likely was transported over socialist government provided roads. If you are attacked or your house burgled most of you will immediately call the socialist police to rescue you.

Two kinds of people in the world, anarchists and socialists. Since you guys ain't in jail for blowing stuff up it must be that we are all socialists on this forum. Just maybe in varying degrees.
When you sold you goods, you took payment in socialist money, eh? Not even real socialist money but fiat socialist money.

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