Who sets the standard for grading fur and should everybody use the same guidelines? I have always believed the 2 Canada houses set the standard or is there a standard?

The grading "standards" if you want to call them that were set generations ago. What changes is demand in general, and demand for specific grades within a species. During periods of high demand a particular skin of slightly lower quality might be pushed into the next grade higher. This doesn't mean the standards have changed, just that a potential buyer at an auction will grudgingly except this practice. Don't expect this to happen during a down market though.

You know it's no secret Scott. Kind of like in a hot coon market I was 50% northern and 50% north central. A couple years later my coons were 75% north central and 25% grading western semi. Nothing changed in quality between that time, but the market fell out from under them. Just as Waggler pointed out those coons were likely western semi the whole time, but got pushed up in a hot market. Looking back at the nap from those times they likely were western semi that I had caught early and I just happened to ride the bus on a hot market. You've already made up your mind so why don't you throw them on the truck and stop worrying about it or just quit beating around the bush and let it fly.

As the market changes,different skins of the same value to the buyer will get intersorted at the auction.
Its all about how the skins are used,dictated by fashon trends and what the buyers want in an assortment.
In the high value high fashon furs you wont see this as much,or at all.In the lower grades and damaged you will see a lot of different sizes,colours and clarities mixed because they all have basically the same value and end use.
Grades do not change,but the intersort does in response to fashon.

Standards? What’s that? Lol

Kidding aside
It seems as if standards are not the same all the time. For one thing many buyers have their own standards in regards to where they intend on selling. These change all the time. Same can be said about the auction houses. Between the two auction houses the grade is not necessarily the same. And the auction houses change their standards to try to market the skins the best way in their opinion.

So that is why I say “what’s that”
There is more or less a standard but it gets pushed all over to suit individuals needs or desires

Here is the grading standard for muskrats for example(they do not change)from the fur encyclopedia.

Boco
It changes and everyone knows it
You can call it “intersorting” if you’d like
But if 1100 skins are in a 3xl SEL lot it should all be 3xl SEL not intersorted with I*

If they are all valued the same there is no reason to break them down.Buyers want large lots and in many cases will pay the same price for a 1 or a select because there is not enough skins of that size quality.Same value-one lot.

Why do you think the O and 1's in beaver are intersorted?There is not enough skins of the one size to stand alone.So the buyers orders are filled with equal quality the next size down.It makes no sense to not intersort the two grade sizes.
The grades cannot change,skins are what they are.You do not seem to know the difference between individual fur grades and a fur assortment.

Fur grading by a trained competent fur grader is quite precise.How the grades are intersorted to meet buyers requirements does change with market demands and fashon trends.

Boco, why do you imagine the term "Chinese grade" came about? Any buyer of skins at either auction house (especially NAFA) knows exactly what this term implies. I'm pretty tired of it now. I agree that a competent grader can sort skins very effectively, unless they have been instructed to do otherwise, most of the senior graders with many years experience are gone or about to go, compounding the problem.

Exactly.
A fur quality on a raccoon that was a #I, a #II(2), a low #2, or a #3 or #4 was the same in the 1970's as it is in the 2010's. Like has already been stated, often times I's and II's are mixed together for value, and 3's&4's are almost always combined.
Sizes are more standardized now-a-days than they ever have been. Colors are also fairly standard, but of all three characteristics colors are probably the most subjective. I have never been able to sort mink as to color, coon on the other hand are one of the easiest.

Wolfer-The graders at FHA have been there for years and the new ones at NAFA have been trained by the retiring graders.Some of the retired graders work as fur brokers because they know fur.
You are also confusing pelt grading with lot intersorting.
Waggler understands the auction intersorting process.

So is the show lot a good representative of the lot? Or is the show lot cherry picked?

Show lots are representative.
If you are talking about the promotional top lots-those are the best of the best,and are marketed as such all the way thru the pipeline.

Gotcha, was just making sure the I's were in with the SEL on the show lot.

Boco for my own personal understanding,let's talk coyotes. Is the so called pencil test the standard for acceptable skins? Example, as written,eraser and some of the pencil disappears that is what Nafa considers a semi heavy coyote?

Jim Gibb could answer you that.I think the pencil thing that Jim wrote about is just a general way for a trapper to gage what kind of skins he has if he does not have hundreds to compare with each other.

Yes I read it.

Here are your coyote grades.You can see the depth of the fur clearly differentiates prime from early.

Nope I’m not confused at all
I understand intersorting
I understand making large lots

However, I do not understand why a catalog grade will say sel but in fact the lot itself has been intersorted.
And I also understand that there have been many times that nafa has been challenged for having the show lot not be an accurate representation of the lot.

So....this means nafa changes the grade to suit what they feel is the need or acceptable. I.e a sel lot that has I-II type skins but is not labeled as such.
The grade on the skins did not change but the grade on the sheet did

Hogwash^^^^
They get paid on commission,it is in their interest as well as the trappers,for them to grade and sort to the recognized professional standard.

Might have to dis-agree with you here, why do a significant amount of claims get settled when the buyer sees the bulk goods? I had 40% of the 2nd lot from the top lot of Northern red fox fall apart because they were VERY stale, this did not show in the sample. This was a lot of $$$ for a small manufacturer, over ten grand USD. At the same sale I purchased the top lot of ranch red fox and they all fell apart for the same reason, I was compensated for these, after much negotiating.

Likely the tannery.Problem with de greasing.Tannerys have about a 5% blowout ,even more when starting up training new employees.
I have never known "significant" amounts of claims to be made.Usually someone trying to back out of a deal.Not much gets by the graders.
Being good corporate citizens,the auction may well have paid the claim,even if not in the wrong,instead of dragging it out for a small amount of money.
Grease burn\stale is easy to notice.Even an amateur grader can recognize that.

The dresser sent back the goods and the auction agreed they were not as graded. 40% of the goods was absolutely a mistake.

Like I said,they likely just paid up the small amount instead of bothering with litigation.
Which auction-Nafa or FHA.I will find out.

Look for a PM on this.

Hogwash?
Not really.
As I stated, they sort it in a way they feel will be acceptable and make the most money. Which is exactly as you said


I have an idea. Why don’t you buy a sizable lot at nafa. Let’s say II grade. Then resend that lot and get back to me on how that turns out

The Canada auctions have been around for a very long time and I would think that year after year if buyers were purchasing goods that weren't as labeled we all would have heard about it by now. I know year after year the fur from my area whether it is Fha or Nafa grades the same,been that way for years. Example would be semi heavy coyote,

Mistakes get made, that just comes with the territory, they happen at all the auction houses, but I think they all do their best.
Years ago I sold a mid February, very rubbed coyote at one of the auctions, I almost didn't skin it out, it was a 2$ coyote. It sold for $52; did I complain about that mistake? Of course not.
Back to "standard grades"; "select" is not really a grade, it's just the best of the best #1s.

If there were strict grading standards, all pelts would grade the same by different people. From watching a few presentations by fur graders, I notice they use subjective as well as objective standards. Yes the grade changes. I've sent fur to both Auctions and they grade and size and color grade different.

Just to prove my point on grade changing. In the last 25 years NAFA has changed the sizing on muskrats twice. IMO sizing is part of the grading process.

So ssl, sel, I, I-II, II and etc are not grades?
Interesting

Agreed

I haven't read this entire thread and I don't intend to. And I'm not going to get into an argument with Boco or any one else. Just want to state my observation after attending NAFA sales for almost 30 years - 1984-2013.

When I first started attending NAFA sales, fur was in high fashion and Europe was the main buyer. Most fur went for fancier type garments - ski parkas, 3/4 length jackets, etc. The grade was very tight and the lot sizes were small. Lots of 75 to 100 coon were common. Very precise size/grade/section. That is the way the buyers/brokers wanted it. It was not uncommon to take an entire day to sell 250,000 Raccoon. A person could usually buy a lot of pelts based solely on the catalog description. And not have any problems at all.

When China became active in the wild fur market, things changed. And the more China became a major player, the more the auction companies changed the pelt put up to accommodate the Chinese needs. Fur was now more for utilitarian purposes, rather than strictly high fashion. Though high fashion still played a part. The Chinese buyers didn't want to buy Raccoon 100 pelts at a time. They wanted to buy 1000 pelts at a time. They were using such large quantities that it didn't matter if the pelts matched perfectly. They dealt with matching the pelts after they were tanned. In order to satisfy the Chinese buyers, NAFA started grouping sizes and colors together. It was the only way they could achieve the lot size China wanted.

It was impossible to find 1000 pelts that were size 3XLARGE, B color, # 2 clarity from a specific section. That is why you now have 3XL Raccoon lots that are B-C colors and 1-4 clarity. When you have that much variation in the lot description, it is impossible to pull a sample of 10 skins that represent the 1000 pelts in that lot. The Chinese were happy and the other buyers learned to deal with it. Some of them no longer buy at NAFA and now buy at FHA because the lot size is smaller. And some buyers now rely on trapper sales to fill there needs.

Any whereas it used to take a full day to sell 250,000 Raccoon, NAFA now does that in an hour and a half. Two hours max.

End of story.

Another example of random standards when it comes to grading.

Send some Beaver from here. Flip a coin guess where they will section. Last time I was foolish and did this, my darker beaver got sectioned Western and my lighter beaver got Eastern. You would think that those dark beaver would match up with dark eastern beaver( especially since my brown beaver matched up with easterns) and make me and the Auction more money sorted that way instead of getting the kiss of death and sectioned western.

Hey Boco,
What's this document titled, and is there a place we can get it? Looks pretty informative. Thanks.

That looks very similar to the Grading manuals you can find on the NAFA website. Most every species is covered with the exception of wild mink (unless this has changed).

Wissmiss. In all due respect. There were no lots of 1000s coon in any of last years catalogs from NAFA. As far as the Chinese wanting to buy 1000s of coon they can do that by buying the first lot in a string, then taking the rest of the string at the same price. Also the intersorting of 1 and 4 colors or clarity didn't happen until they got down to bad damaged and small sizes. Let's keep our NAFA bashing factual.

For the record - I WAS NOT NAFA BASHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm on your side in this argument.

Really?

REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is it when someone challenges a system or states something they have experienced that it is taken as bashing? It is discussion. Many of us don’t hate nafa or Fha and actually believe it can be good for the industry.

As Joe Friday always said " just the facts mam, just the facts."

This is where someone usually brings up that it's time to start selling popcorn and watch the fireworks. Asking any fur producer about grading can be entertaining. At least it's better than politics !!

I didn't take wissmiss's comments as NAFA bashing.

Some random pics.

Grades do tighten or loosen at the international auctions. This is a fact based on the market. Had this told to my face from one of the auction companies.

Look at Kopenhagen, they announced that they are tightening their grade due to basically making buyers angry.

Those are some gorgeous coyotes, Scott. I would definitely want top dollar for those.

tbn - nice looking coyotes. Have you thought about sending/taking them to the Colorado sale? I'm thinking they would do good there. And if they didn't bring what you wanted, there would still be time to ship them North for the May NAFA sale.

Oh heck!!!!

Always an option. Visiting with a northern buyer right now that contacted me this afternoon.

Guess my money’s no good

Shane I can't justify loading up that amount of fur and driving an hour an a half. If somebody is interested they can come to my shop and grade them.