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Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6439618
01/25/19 10:20 AM
01/25/19 10:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,050
Mass
TDHP Offline
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TDHP  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2014
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Mass
Originally Posted by cat4fish
Quality lure and bait makers are a dying breed and a dying art.



JMO...Trappers and trapping are a dying breed and art. Take a look at posts through out the forums and actual people who trap. I know many guys who trap and work for trapping companies doing adc work. More and more rely too much on bait and lure rather than their ability to actually set a trap and set themselves up for success. There are folks out there with shelves of "proven" bait and lure made by "experts", and still looking for that "authentic" batch of goodies because their trapping ability is lacking.


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6439630
01/25/19 10:35 AM
01/25/19 10:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,590
SW Pa
B
Bob Jameson Online content
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Bob Jameson  Online Content
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Posts: 7,590
SW Pa
That is a factual reality. So many younger trappers seem to want to depend upon good lure and baits to give them the edge or success whether fur trapping or ADC trapping. They haven't had enough time to learn the skills of location, trap placement as the needed understanding what you see and recognize in animal sign and behavior.

You can watch all the videos you want but it still takes many years in the field to become proficient at consistent trapping skills.

If you can get field experience through instruction or mentoring from another skilled trapper that will sure help speed up your learning. It will also give you a short cut to becoming more successful without all the extra years of self learning and the animals teaching you things.

If there is no intervention it will take considerable time to learn on your own. Nothing wrong with that, you will figure things out along the way and it is a challenging but rewarding experience. That is how I learned and it made me understand much more over time.

Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6439735
01/25/19 12:14 PM
01/25/19 12:14 PM
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Posts: 4,369
N.C MO
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TONY.F Offline
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N.C MO
I do agree with knowing and understanding your target animal and understanding location. A location is just a spot if it don't have a interesting smell to generate the foot movement.Ive never felt as if a yote or most any predator besides a coon or grinner was working a smell for hunger only.Sure food odors demand the biggest interest.Although in my eyes curiosity and desire to wear it trump food on a regular basis .Most of the best authenic no longer available to day originals were high powered curiosity scents. I agree with cat 4 fish the chemical make up is what my attention goes to now.And as stated experience will still be the most rewarding teacher. Most any odd smell will attract a big part of the yotes but a smell that keeps them coming back repeatedly until caught is the ultimate goal.Which im sure is the goal of any bait or lure maker pro or novice.Im surprised you older pros don't give a week school on bait and lure formulating. Making my own stuff makes me pay considerable more attention to details at sets compared to a proven smell.I've never understood what good knowledge is if it goes to the grave.Passed on knowledge becomes a legacy.Im serious about the bait and lure formulating school!Free labor to aid in some of your nasty tasks.Bob id clean mink glands for a day for a weeks worth of dos and donts. A legal contract to guarantee your secrets stay secrets as long as you or your name was attached to a product.Wouldnt be unheard of


LIVE LIFE LIKE THEIR IS NO TOMMORROW
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6439756
01/25/19 12:54 PM
01/25/19 12:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,050
Mass
TDHP Offline
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TDHP  Offline
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Mass
When I have questions or I'm stuck and am working on new things, bet ya bottom dollar I pick up the phone and make a call out to a bait and lure maker who I trust, and trusts me, no shame in that. This gentleman won't just give the answer though, he throws it out there in a riddle, and makes you think for it. Which then opens up lots of doors for other things that work well with that material or what I'm trying to do. That's when I try to get fancy though.


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6439863
01/25/19 03:05 PM
01/25/19 03:05 PM
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N.C MO
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TONY.F Offline
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N.C MO
GOOD ADVISE TDHP the good thing about being a novice failure isn't as big of a deal.All learning curves require failure. Those failures are still are still a success. I feel learning what not to do is as important as the ladder! Being on a uneven playing field I always felt as if I was imposing asking advise from a guy making his living from his skills


LIVE LIFE LIKE THEIR IS NO TOMMORROW
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: TONY.F] #6440373
01/25/19 09:32 PM
01/25/19 09:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,222
MN
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yukonal Offline
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MN
Originally Posted by TONY.F
.I've never understood what good knowledge is if it goes to the grave.Passed on knowledge becomes a legacy.


I agree, Tony. Lots of great recipes have gone to the grave with the formulator. I guess most lure makers would rather try to sell their formulas when they are ready to call it quits.

There is a bunch of sharing on this forum. I've learned a lot over the years...and have tried to share my knowledge, as well.

Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6441857
01/27/19 10:34 AM
01/27/19 10:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,447
Monroeville NJ
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Jonesie Offline
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Monroeville NJ
I think we as trappers get to worked up on the animal working the set hard that we miss trap placement, and I mean with not only foot holds but also cable and cages. Yes we want the bait or lure to keep the animal there so don't take this out of context, but if the trap is in the right position then how long does it take to catch the animal? We all have seen vids on this site of the target animal that comes in and gets caught on the first or second steps before they even start to work the bait or lure. or go right into the cage with out circling it. The blind set be it a foot trap, cable or even a cage trap, placed where the animal is going to walk first and foremost, then bait or lure added along with the visual of a hole or cow chip, dead stick what ever, all work together to trigger as many senses in a positive, is what catches the animal. That sounds simple and to folks doing this stuff for years and have learned it, well, it is simple. But perhaps like Bob stated, taking years to learn it, we have forgotten when in the beginning it wasn't simple LOL. I am showing my grandson many things and I have to keep telling myself this stuff is complicated to him because he is not thinking on the same lines at one season of trapping as I am with trapping for 50 years. Is valerian a good ingredient? Yes in the right formulations and with the right intent. but just like every ingredient it ain't going to work all the time. NOTHING DOES.


Ron Jones
http://www.acpwildlifepro.net/
Rednecks Pride Game Calls / Outdoor Scents
Rednecks Pride Outdoors podcast
Friend me on FaceBook
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6445312
01/30/19 11:11 AM
01/30/19 11:11 AM
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N.C MO
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TONY.F Offline
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jonsie in a perfect world you are 100 % correct! Sometimes I hit the sweet spot dead center but other times. I get a predator that forgot to read the manual so I need the extra steps Im guilty of relying on a smell to much.. Not to get them to a set but keep them at a set. Hardly ever do I use what is considered a true ldc . I lack a good cat population but my tests have shown predators show attraction towards valerian.Sweeter smelling meats pair well with valerian from my limited testing


LIVE LIFE LIKE THEIR IS NO TOMMORROW
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6445351
01/30/19 11:32 AM
01/30/19 11:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,590
SW Pa
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Bob Jameson Online content
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Valerian is a valuable ingredient when used in the right percentages for a lure or bait. As I have stated in earlier comments on this topic.

Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447562
02/01/19 08:50 AM
02/01/19 08:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
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Mass
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TDHP  Offline
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Mass
If folks who use nothing more than a chunk of bait and urine or just urine that's processed today whether cut or not and can double the catch rate of many who do use bait and lure, what does that say about authentic ingredients pertaining to ingredient lists in bait and lure vs knowledge of the art of trapping and luck?


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: TDHP] #6447608
02/01/19 09:35 AM
02/01/19 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,493
Goldsboro, North Carolina
Paul Dobbins Offline
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Paul Dobbins  Offline
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Originally Posted by TDHP
If folks who use nothing more than a chunk of bait and urine or just urine that's processed today whether cut or not and can double the catch rate of many who do use bait and lure, what does that say about authentic ingredients pertaining to ingredient lists in bait and lure vs knowledge of the art of trapping and luck?


There may be more to it than knowledge of the art of trapping and luck. The biggest factor I've found is population density of the target animal. Where the target animal has a high population, they will be attracted to most anything. Where the target animal population is sparse, they are much more wary and inclined to be much more finicky. Where the population of the target animal is sparse, knowledge of the art of trapping becomes much more important



Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447638
02/01/19 10:00 AM
02/01/19 10:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,590
SW Pa
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Bob Jameson Online content
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SW Pa
You said it right there Paul. I have stated that for years since that has been my experience as well.

Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447670
02/01/19 10:32 AM
02/01/19 10:32 AM
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Posts: 2,050
Mass
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TDHP  Offline
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Sir, I knew the animal population comment which is true would be the next issue when it comes to catch rate, but like any other excuse..it could only be used for so long before the individual has to look into their ability to 1 find the animals and 2 set themselves up for the catch. I can bait a dirt hole or drop a chunk of bait in my yard and have zero visits from animals if they aren't there, even using some top notch lure. Same could be said for bait and lure in the field to get responses, even though the lure claims to call animals from miles away. I've seen zero activity on what most say is the best ldc on the market along with a commercial bait that is supposed to be the best in the country according to others and I would assume they are using top notch ingredients if it's the best in the country. Even if the animals weren't in the area, they sould've been due to the calling power of them ingredients..as they claim. Both you and Mr Jameson know your stuff, I get it and respect it. So, I guess the only question is why are there so many lures that claim to calm the animals down and get them to drop their guard, but still have trappers filling shelves with bait and lure and still continue to fail on their targets when they have animal tracks walking right by their set by a couple feet? One would think if these ingredients can call an animal from a mile, it should be able to get an animal to at least stop to take a whiff of them authentic ingredients...right?


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447698
02/01/19 10:53 AM
02/01/19 10:53 AM
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Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Southern Michigan
There are so many variables to weather an animal is attracted or not. I agree population density is huge, but sometimes the animal is just not in the mood, period. Doesn;t matter what magic potion we use.
When I'm thinking of trying a new attractor I ask the maker one question, Will this stuff stop every passing animal? If he says yes I walk.. Place the set within 3 feet of the line of travel , both sides. Bed the trap where the target wants to step. Then wait.. If they are using that location you'll catch, eventually.


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447701
02/01/19 10:56 AM
02/01/19 10:56 AM
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tbn Offline
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I would think it should work better in high density areas or as Beav says,dumb coyotes. I expect to go in to an area and set 2 or 3 traps and have all 2 or 3 coyotes per visit not randomly one here and there. I don't wear the label as a professional bait maker but my personal stuff works better than any other stuff I have ever bought,other than when Rich was still making his bait.

Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447740
02/01/19 11:37 AM
02/01/19 11:37 AM
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Monroeville NJ
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Jonesie Offline
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Monroeville NJ
High populations can make a good trapper look great low populations can make a great Trapper look bad


Ron Jones
http://www.acpwildlifepro.net/
Rednecks Pride Game Calls / Outdoor Scents
Rednecks Pride Outdoors podcast
Friend me on FaceBook
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: Jonesie] #6447752
02/01/19 11:53 AM
02/01/19 11:53 AM
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Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Southern Michigan
Yep grin


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447793
02/01/19 12:56 PM
02/01/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,050
Mass
TDHP Offline
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TDHP  Offline
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These are the same answers for all the bait a lure questions, which are common sense..hard to trap something that isn't there" yep. Just trying to get a better grasp on what makes one lure better than the other when it comes to authentic ingredients..as some say? Things may smell better than others when combined, animal might not be in the mood..ingredients that send an animal into another world..uh huh. that's it? If you went out and bought a top of the line hockey stick with all the bells and whistles IE Micro Feel for contoured comfort monocomp onepiece design for excellent shaft consistency qrt taper for whip-quick responsiveness Textreme carbon fibe for lighter performance...would it improve your performance on the ice if you lack the skill to be out there? If all these baits, lures and ingredients are supposed to do all of these things...why so many problems and so many brands being sold when one with the "authentic" ingredients should be enough?


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447864
02/01/19 02:35 PM
02/01/19 02:35 PM
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Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Southern Michigan
Animals are alot like us, some like this or that some don't. In low population areas it takes variety to get results. Ive trapped in both high and low, low populations is a bit different. They'll never be just one or even two. It also changes with the time of year. The lure that works for some trappers won't work for others. But, there are some that are pretty darn special.. No I ain't naming those LOL


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: WHATS your opinion of Valerian now ? [Re: cat4fish] #6447929
02/01/19 04:32 PM
02/01/19 04:32 PM
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Mass
TDHP Offline
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TDHP  Offline
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Mass
lol, I hear ya. So, what good is a bottle of lure filled with 30 + years of knowledge and "authentic" ingredients in it, but has no value to the trapper using it for a successful catch rate? When folks say the "secret" is .... how much of a secret is it, if it doesn't work for the trapper? Or.........are the animals coming up and things don't look natural or any other thing that is said on why an animal doesn't approach the set or cage? Nothing to do with skill level in presenting a site to an animal??? Animal curiosity is natural, so why does it take 30 years of experience to make an effective bait or lure?? Why pay for trapping classes if all that is needed are jars of bait and lure with "authentic" ingredients and 30 + years of trapping experience in them if skills aren't more of an issue whether "authentic" ingredients were used or not?


Smile, you're an expert!
http://tdhpwildlifecontrol.webs.com/
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