Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: Wanna Be]
#6827644
04/02/20 08:55 PM
04/02/20 08:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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I asked where in the Bible it states it ok to kill your fellow man and you come up with monkeys? Or did your God not instill you with common sense? Do you climb trees during a tornado? Fish on the lake during a lightening storm? Walk in front of a semi on the interstate? No, of course not. Why? Because you wouldn’t put yourself in danger or those around you in danger. It’s sad that the government has to step in and demand common sense. A good preacher/pastor/priest/etc would tell his congregation we are going to hold off on services or maybe we will broadcast over the Internet. I have no respect for anyone that puts unwilling/common senseless people in harms way. I CHOOSE to avoid congregating as a matter of conscience and good judgement. If your faith is to be dictated by "common sense" alone... Then give it up. Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827651
04/02/20 08:59 PM
04/02/20 08:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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Catch, the point was that SCOTUS has made horribly wrong decisions plenty of times. Just pointing to them and saying, "Well SCOTUS says it's OK..." doesn't make it right any day of the week.
We've all sat on here and griped about the Miller decision a billion times.
The Constitution says what it says. Or it doesn't.
Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: Wanna Be]
#6827655
04/02/20 09:01 PM
04/02/20 09:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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Most conscience and good judgement is just common sense... If you don't wanna go to church and risk infection... Then don't. But don't use God or government as a weapon to comfort your fears. Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827661
04/02/20 09:04 PM
04/02/20 09:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,964 OH
Catch22
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,964
OH
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I get ya Mike, I do. I agree with you, I'm just pointing out the Law. It's there and all of the Constitution has been watered down imo since the ink dried. But it's there.
I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827667
04/02/20 09:08 PM
04/02/20 09:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 74 Minnesota
scotts
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 74
Minnesota
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Brian, you bring up an interesting subject about economic damage that provides a good example of unexpected and unintended consequences.
I will start with a bold but provable statement. The Black Plague did not plunge Europe into the Dark Ages, it sparked the Renaissance. Instead of the expected destruction caused by loosing half the population, the surviving serf had increased wealth (inherited from deceased relatives) and greater bargaining power (less serf for the same number of jobs). This was a key component of breaking the feudal system.
If we set the very real and important human component aside, and look at the current crisis from a cold, strictly economic point of view allowing Covid to run its course would most likely be beneficial. Again, this is from a strictly economic point of view. Current estimates put the potential cost at 2 million people. The cold, hard, brutal truth is that this is 2 million less workers for a fixed number of jobs = wages go up. 2 million less workers for jobs that still have to be done sparks innovation in industry and technology to cover the labor shortage. Over 2 million survivors will see an overnight increase in net worth due to inheritance. There are benefits to Social Security as well.
Since you mentioned the Great Depression, I recently learned there is at least one study that indicated the Great Depression had a positive impact on life expectancy. I was extremely surprised to learn this and it is the exact opposite to what I would expect. It is an interesting read and appears to be a very comprehensive study. The only real thing I can grab onto to question its findings is that it collected data only from urban areas. As far as I am aware, there was no pandemic element to starting the Great Depression. If I am wrong on this, please let me know. Before any of you accuse me of anything, re-read my comments above. I am not suggesting anything. I am responding to a narrow question thru the very narrow lense of economic impact. Your moral argument against this approach are still valid and I agree with many of them.
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: scotts]
#6827687
04/02/20 09:16 PM
04/02/20 09:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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Brian, you bring up an interesting subject about economic damage that provides a good example of unexpected and unintended consequences.
I will start with a bold but provable statement. The Black Plague did not plunge Europe into the Dark Ages, it sparked the Renaissance. Instead of the expected destruction caused by loosing half the population, the surviving serf had increased wealth (inherited from deceased relatives) and greater bargaining power (less serf for the same number of jobs). This was a key component of breaking the feudal system.
If we set the very real and important human component aside, and look at the current crisis from a cold, strictly economic point of view allowing Covid to run its course would most likely be beneficial. Again, this is from a strictly economic point of view. Current estimates put the potential cost at 2 million people. The cold, hard, brutal truth is that this is 2 million less workers for a fixed number of jobs = wages go up. 2 million less workers for jobs that still have to be done sparks innovation in industry and technology to cover the labor shortage. Over 2 million survivors will see an overnight increase in net worth due to inheritance. There are benefits to Social Security as well.
Since you mentioned the Great Depression, I recently learned there is at least one study that indicated the Great Depression had a positive impact on life expectancy. I was extremely surprised to learn this and it is the exact opposite to what I would expect. It is an interesting read and appears to be a very comprehensive study. The only real thing I can grab onto to question its findings is that it collected data only from urban areas. As far as I am aware, there was no pandemic element to starting the Great Depression. If I am wrong on this, please let me know. Before any of you accuse me of anything, re-read my comments above. I am not suggesting anything. I am responding to a narrow question thru the very narrow lense of economic impact. Your moral argument against this approach are still valid and I agree with many of them. No offense on my part. It's also interesting to note that studies have shown that FDR and the government's "solutions" prolonged the Depression. I've seen it argued both ways. Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: scotts]
#6827689
04/02/20 09:17 PM
04/02/20 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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I am curious. How many on here are aware that the government has absolutely no obligation to protect any given free citizen? Another landmark SCOTUS decision. Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: Mike in A-town]
#6827717
04/02/20 09:37 PM
04/02/20 09:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 74 Minnesota
scotts
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 74
Minnesota
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I am curious. How many on here are aware that the government has absolutely no obligation to protect any given free citizen? Another landmark SCOTUS decision. Mike You have to look at it sideways, backwards and squinting, but in the grand scheme of things; I think they got that one right. It is an affirmation of individual responsibility and self sufficiency. In short, you are responsible for you. Applied to the current situation and added to what I learned on this thread, there is a strong chance it might already be a legal option to board sick people up in their homes and leave them die of virus or starvation.
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827734
04/02/20 09:50 PM
04/02/20 09:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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Sorry Scott, I wasn't very clear in my response earlier... I should've said yes I agree.
Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827740
04/02/20 09:54 PM
04/02/20 09:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,653 North East Kansas
Marty
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,653
North East Kansas
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Rule 1: Continuity of government is #1 priority of government. If it comes to it they will do whatever is necessary to see to that.
Rise and Rise Again Until Lambs Become Lions
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: Marty]
#6827794
04/02/20 10:51 PM
04/02/20 10:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408 Northeast Oklahoma
Mike in A-town
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,408
Northeast Oklahoma
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Rule 1: Continuity of government is #1 priority of government. If it comes to it they will do whatever is necessary to see to that. Bingo. All other considerations are secondary. Mike
One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.
Vladimir Lenin
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827918
04/03/20 06:34 AM
04/03/20 06:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,004 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,004
williamsburg ks
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Virgil we need government to force us into taking care of ourselves. We are not capable of weighing risk and deciding for ourselves. Why would we ever want government to recognize our rights and protect them? That isnt the job of our government . The job of the government is to protect us from ourselves. Be our parent. Freedom is just to scary. Government has a duty to provide for the general welfare.
Can you imagine what would happen if people were allowed to be armed? We all know its our right to be armed but how many people would handle firearms irresponsibly and cause accidents? Some people would even use them to prey on others. Time to put a stop to it.
What if people were allowed to say anything they wanted? What if they were allowed to speak badly about those in political office? It quite possibly could undermine what they are trying to do in order to make our lives and our families safer. No, we can't allow that.
I have to say that personal liberty is just to frightening to contemplate. It must be banned and banned now in order that no body ever dies ever again.
Last edited by danny clifton; 04/03/20 07:14 AM.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6827921
04/03/20 06:43 AM
04/03/20 06:43 AM
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Morning y'all. Hadn't been on TMan in a couple days. Reading this thread, I see it still has legs and that many of you may in fact agree with each other, under the surface, on many points.
All I know is we are blessed to live where we live. All of us are top 1% of the richest in the world, or that has ever been, and that makes the comforts of this life pretty easy to take for granted. I know I'm often guilty of that.
MJ
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: loosegoose]
#6828019
04/03/20 08:09 AM
04/03/20 08:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,586 MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Trapper7
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,586
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Just read a report that the Pastor of that church says he was sorry he did the service since he realized his service has been proven to have spread the virus and infected some of the people who attended. He doesn't plan to have any more services.
If someone tears down the American flag and puts another flag in its place, that person should get a free, mandatory one way trip to that country.
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: Trapper7]
#6828107
04/03/20 09:37 AM
04/03/20 09:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,450 Akron, Ohio
bass10
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,450
Akron, Ohio
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Just read a report that the Pastor of that church says he was sorry he did the service since he realized his service has been proven to have spread the virus and infected some of the people who attended. He doesn't plan to have any more services. Yes, I'd say he did it more out of "they aren't gonna tell me what I can and cannot do" than the chance for risk. Trapper7, I love your byline
"The more people I meet the more I love my dog!"
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Re: Pastor arrested for holding church
[Re: ]
#6828111
04/03/20 09:41 AM
04/03/20 09:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,450 Akron, Ohio
bass10
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,450
Akron, Ohio
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It’s your right to not go to work. Nobody is forcing you![/quote] I appreciate the work and the overtime here lately has been nice. I don't mind helping to float the economy for y'all folks who can hunker down. Just trying to point out if the virus is so bad why are we allowed to assemble to work, yet not allowed to assemble to worship together or bury our dead. I expect that answer lies in my second sentence. I guess Buckeye fans can't comprehend that well. [/quote] Well I'd say working at your cabinet shop and having a church service where people are shoulder to shoulder throwing out spit are worlds apart? But I fully expect you to disagree with that statement.I'd also say some business owners are putting their greed above health and safety, in our state I'd have to think that'd be a non essential business that shouldn't be open. I closed mine immediately, no amount of lost income is worth my extended work family or families health and well being but I have the ability to use common sense.
"The more people I meet the more I love my dog!"
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