Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924415
07/08/20 09:05 PM
07/08/20 09:05 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,608 Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,608
Oakland, MS
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From a personal standpoint, I view someone that would kill the developing life of her own child in her womb, as the lowest form of scum. Right up there with pedophiles in my book. But I try to remove my personal opinion a lot and look at things from other angles. And when I do that on this issue, it comes down to one thing for me. Father's rights.
I feel that before we can even have a discussion about issues such as at what point in the pregnancy can the child be aborted, what exceptions (rape, incest, danger to mother) should be allowed, etc... we need to discuss the elephant in the room and that is the right of the father's. That child developing in a woman's womb is only half hers. The other half belongs to someone else. In what world should it ever be considered right to murder a man's son/daughter without his consent, and often even without his knowledge?
It should absolutely be illegal to have an abortion without the consent of the father except in certain cases (rape, etc). Now, that's not to say he should just be able tell her no and that's the end of it... if he wants the child and he doesn't, he should be responsible for all the medical bills, as well as take full responsibility/custody of the child at birth. Women should just know that when they open their legs for a man, pregnancy and all that it entails is a possible consequence of that.
Last edited by yotetrapper30; 07/08/20 09:06 PM.
~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: James]
#6924422
07/08/20 09:13 PM
07/08/20 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,643 Georgia
warrior
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trapper
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Georgia
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You guys want to ban abortion before the woman could even tell she's pregnant, unless she's actively testing for it.
Anyway, the definition ought not to be "what is life?," but instead "what is a human being?"
I think the test for legal abortions ought to be viability outside the womb. That should be the dividing line between fetus and human being. Up until that point, a woman should be able to refuse the use of her body as a vessel for a fetus.
My views are to the right of most left-wing politicians and pro-choice groups.
Jim Viability is a slippery slope. At what point do we quit caring for grandma? She slipped a few gears, got a busted hip and on her own isn't viable. Use her body as a vessel for something she put there?
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: Boco]
#6924512
07/08/20 10:58 PM
07/08/20 10:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 42,017 Northern Maine
Bruce T
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its not what you or I believe that matters-its what the supreme courts decide that matters. Wrong.Its what God wants that really matters most.This life is temporary.
Nevada bound
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924541
07/09/20 12:18 AM
07/09/20 12:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,584 MN
Donnersurvivor
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I wanted to interject this mainly because I find it interesting and honestly quite creepy. A women who is pregnant with a son will retain that child's unique DNA in her brain for the rest of her life, the cells from the child can have health benefits to the mother. If a women is pregnant with a son and aborts that child part of that child will still remain with the mother for the rest of her life, possibly even offering her health benefits. The unique DNA of your child is with you for the rest of your life, even though you killed it... that is just trippy for me to wrap my mind around. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/09/bearing-sons-can-alter-your-mind
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924561
07/09/20 02:07 AM
07/09/20 02:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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So how come you're so interested in my views? You started the thread--you must have some views of your own.
I never claimed any expertise in domestic relations law. No one owns a child after birth. The natural parents share custody until the child is eighteen or until they relinquish that right or it's lost in court.
Before birth, a father has few legal rights to "ownership" or custody of the fetus. I used to think it was unfair to the man to be denied a say-so on issues like abortion, but changed my mind.
If you're against abortion, why not respond to my seven points for keeping it legal?
Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924564
07/09/20 02:12 AM
07/09/20 02:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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Some room has been made.
Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: James]
#6924569
07/09/20 02:45 AM
07/09/20 02:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,517 Moved to Fbks, Ak.
martentrapper
OP
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Moved to Fbks, Ak.
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So how come you're so interested in my views? You started the thread--you must have some views of your own.
I never claimed any expertise in domestic relations law. No one owns a child after birth. The natural parents share custody until the child is eighteen or until they relinquish that right or it's lost in court.
Before birth, a father has few legal rights to "ownership" or custody of the fetus. I used to think it was unfair to the man to be denied a say-so on issues like abortion, but changed my mind.
If you're against abortion, why not respond to my seven points for keeping it legal?
Jim
Can you restate or provide a link for your 7 points? I am interested in your views as you are a trained legalese, a democrat trapper.........Oh Yes You Are!!, and have the guts to remain here despite some ridiculing. You also reside in the same state I do. Personally, I am less against abortion and more against each state being unable to set its own standards. Each state has their own medical licensing, their own laws on providing medical treatment, but are unable to set virtually any law about abortion. Oddly, abortion is somehow NOT classified as a medical procedure. I am also against under age, 16 in Alaska, girls being unable to legally consent to sex yet once they do and get pregnant they don,t need parent permission to get an abortion, birth control, STD treatment, etc. A person under 18 can't get a flu shot without a parent but can abort a 2nd trimester baby every day of the week! I raised a female child, mostly w/o her mother, so quite bothered by the ease of young girls getting what should be parent permission medical treatment. I find it quite ridiculous that a female can relinquish her bodies sovereignty to a man for a few moments yet demand it back once those moments are over regardless of the results of those few moments!
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: James]
#6924572
07/09/20 03:05 AM
07/09/20 03:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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My response comes in seven parts, then.
Libertarian: I don't want the government, through a judge or panel of bureaucrats, to decide what happens to a woman's pregnancy. Pregnancy is a personal, private, medical condition. Given the choice between government and individual, in this case I'll side with the individual.
Establishment of religion: If you insist the woman can't decide for herself whether to finish the pregnancy, even at the stage of fetal non-viability, then you must be saying that all life is sacred. That's a religious belief which many don't share. Go establish your religion in some other country.
Extremist: If you believe all life is sacred, then you must deny abortion even in cases of rape or incest or when the mother's life is at risk. Are you willing to go that far?
Non-judgmental: I won't accept the notion that people ought to be punished for having unprotected sex. It doesn't say that in the Good Book, anyway.
Children should be wanted: People shouldn't be forced into raising unwanted children. That's not good for mother or child. That's a good way to create a criminal, sociopath, or someone with attachment disorder.
Humanitarian: Do we really want to send women to back-alley abortionists? You know, like it was before Roe v. Wade.
Practical: Just how would you propose to ban abortion anyway? Since you want to take away the woman's right to decide, does that leave the feds or the state to punish the woman?
Jim MT, these are the seven points I made earlier in this thread. Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924574
07/09/20 03:16 AM
07/09/20 03:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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MT: Aside from cases of rape or incest, a woman does not give up her sovereignty over her own body by having sex with a man. So long as it's consensual, sovereignty is retained. It's the same for a man.
Yeah, I agree there's something messed-up about the law allowing girls under 16 (or even 18) to get birth control or even an abortion without her parents' knowledge and consent. I don't think sovereignty should exist until adulthood. But like most laws, the worst people and cases drive the need for the law.
Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: ]
#6924602
07/09/20 06:44 AM
07/09/20 06:44 AM
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J Staton
Unregistered
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J Staton
Unregistered
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Libertarian- Recognize a woman's right but not the rights of the unborn? Seems like that's making the definition of sovereignty fit your agenda. Establishment of Religion- Shouldn't science be included in this category? A DNA sample from the aborted fetus would confirm it was human. Extremist- So the child pays, with its life, for the sins of the father? Non-judgmental- Didn't understand the line of thinking here. Children should be wanted- So a poor childhood guarantees criminality or some other disorder? Humanitarian- That would fall under the rule, "you play,you pay". It's common knowledge of the consequences of unprotected sex. Practical- Amendment/laws charging abortionist with murder. Martentrapper here were my answers to James points. Think he was looking your answers.
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924616
07/09/20 07:02 AM
07/09/20 07:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888
williamsburg ks
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Some anti abortion arguments are pretty silly.
You play you pay? Not really. All to often 14 year old mothers and their offspring end up on welfare.
Maybe if an abortionist can be charged with murder, unmarried couples can be charged with a crime for procreating?
Maybe not living together married, till all children are 18 should be a crime? Aren't those things christian based?
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924619
07/09/20 07:11 AM
07/09/20 07:11 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888
williamsburg ks
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So when is the effort to amend the constitution, to say life begins when the first dna strand forms, going to commence?
Are bills going to be introduced to once again fund "orphanages" to care for unwanted children or will that wreck of tragedy known as foster care get bigger?
I think a law to criminalize unmarried procreation needs to happen. The parents of minors who procreate should go to prison. Birth control pills that allow the fertilized egg to be expelled need banned. While we're at it lets send homosexuals to prison again also. Prison used to cure them.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: danny clifton]
#6924622
07/09/20 07:14 AM
07/09/20 07:14 AM
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J Staton
Unregistered
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J Staton
Unregistered
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Some anti abortion arguments are pretty silly.
You play you pay? Not really. All to often 14 year old mothers and their offspring end up on welfare.
Maybe if an abortionist can be charged with murder, unmarried couples can be charged with a crime for procreating?
Maybe not living together married, till all children are 18 should be a crime? Aren't those things christian based? You play, you pay was in reference to knowing the possible consequences of having sex. Maybe you make your bed you lay in it would have been a better phrase. As for welfare I believe if you're capable of work but you choose not to...you don't eat. Is not the taking of another humans life considered murder? I consider the baby in the womb is human, science would conclude the same, and that anyone who actively takes that life commits murder. The abortionist actively participates in that very action. Your last point is just an attack on Christians and makes absolutely no sense to me in this conversation..
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924627
07/09/20 07:28 AM
07/09/20 07:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888
williamsburg ks
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Attack on Christians? Maybe a little. I get tired of people trying to force their religion on me. Abortion is a complicated issue and not so cut and dried. It is amazing how many sign carrying foaming at the mouth crusaders, change their mind when someone close to them gets pregnant. On both sides of the argument.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: danny clifton]
#6924635
07/09/20 07:52 AM
07/09/20 07:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 42,017 Northern Maine
Bruce T
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Posts: 42,017
Northern Maine
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Attack on Christians? Maybe a little. I get tired of people trying to force their religion on me. Abortion is a complicated issue and not so cut and dried. It is amazing how many sign carrying foaming at the mouth crusaders, change their mind when someone close to them gets pregnant. On both sides of the argument.
Of course abortion is cut and dry.You can try and call it other things but pure and simple it's the killing of a human life.Its just common sense.But then again some people just don't have any.In cases of rape why tramatiz they woman twice?First with the rape and second with the abortion.
Nevada bound
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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body
[Re: martentrapper]
#6924662
07/09/20 08:25 AM
07/09/20 08:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,888
williamsburg ks
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothershere is a heartbreaker for you. raise the age to 12 or thirteen and its hundreds every day. many many many victims of incest. Would you really force a 13 year old to bare her step dads child bruce? if so you are one sick individual
Last edited by danny clifton; 07/09/20 08:27 AM.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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