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Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.
“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: cmcf]
#6992004 09/16/2010:47 AM09/16/2010:47 AM
Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.
Not true, conversations can be led. Lawyers practice it all the time when they can get away with it.
-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992005 09/16/2010:49 AM09/16/2010:49 AM
Animals ......other than humans....are not self-aware. They have no idea that they will someday die. We have that innate knowledge. I think animals can learn, and certainly are driven by instinct, but I do not believe they have the capacity to reason.
Birds may be in a different category...slightly.
Look at the video below. Theses animals don't even recognize themselves, and don't have the ability to reason out the situation they are in.
Mean As Nails
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992103 09/16/2001:14 PM09/16/2001:14 PM
No matter what unique circumstances you want to look at animals doing it doesn't come anywhere close, not even in the same ballpark, as having the ability to reason at anywhere the same level as humans. If one approaches it from a scientific level and truly understand the capacities of humans and animal some would realize they arent using their full capacity in this conversation.
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992126 09/16/2001:52 PM09/16/2001:52 PM
Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.
Conclusion: [So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]
Last edited by nate; 09/16/2001:53 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: amspoker]
#6992130 09/16/2001:58 PM09/16/2001:58 PM
Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.
Conclusion: [So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]
Valid point. My opinion as a whole they can't. But its truly hard to determine what is a higher level of intelligence combined with learned behavior and what might be a small shred of ability to reason. To fine a line to determine which side they are on.
Last edited by Yes sir; 09/16/2002:00 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: Trapper7]
#6992134 09/16/2002:01 PM09/16/2002:01 PM
My cat leaves headless chipmunks on my steps. She must know I don't like brains either. I think you're on to something there. My cat's a lot smarter than I gave her credit for.
The difference between animals and humans is that animals would never let the dumbest ones lead the pack.
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992141 09/16/2002:14 PM09/16/2002:14 PM
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992153 09/16/2002:38 PM09/16/2002:38 PM
Example, rubbing two sticks together they get hot. If I rub them together fast enough and long enough, they should make fire. Why? Because fire is hotter than the stickswhen I rubbed them a little bit.
Somebody did that the first time.
-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: nate]
#6992155 09/16/2002:43 PM09/16/2002:43 PM
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?
Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.
Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?
Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.
Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.
Bernie are these the same scientists that believe the world was never under water and carbon dates a 30 year old snail to be 6 thousand years old?
Re: Reaoning power of animals
[Re: BernieB.]
#6992283 09/16/2006:02 PM09/16/2006:02 PM
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?
Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.
Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.
C'mon Bernie, aren't you one of those guys that says big boar bear kill cubs so they can breed with the sow? I've heard that said by all manner of people. I think we are defining "reason" two different ways. I believe animals can reason, but I don't believe they have the ability to take it up a notch or two and, for and example, think " if I eat that cub, I can expect it's mother to come into estrous a year earlier than if I don't eat it". Isn't it reasoning when a bear shifts it's late summer range to take advantage of a good acorn crop, or other food source? How about the folks in Montana/Wyoming that say Grizzly Bear are habituated to rifle shots meaning food. Are they not reasoning that there may be grub over there where that shot just rang out? Is it not reason, or just memory? I say they can be one and the same. As for your statement about emotion.......I believe they have that too. Watch a dog you've known for years, you can tell when they are happy or maybe pouting.