I went to sight in the 223 wylde, 17 hmr and 308 this morning. I was hitting sub moa until I got to 100 yards. Once I moved to 100 the closest I hit with those 3 rifles was 2.5' to the left with the 17hmr. All have new scopes rings and bases. I have no idea why I can't get paper at 100 yards. Maybe too hot, barrel too hot, ammo (factory) loose mount. I had to leave as I had appointments. At first I thought I flinched or jerked the trigger but that wasn't the issue.

This has me stumped.

Last time the 308 landed up having a loose mount.

Mount issues would be my guess. Or scope level

Wow! Must have been a heck of a cross wind. Sorry to many variables for an online diagnosis and or remedy.
All I can say is go back to the basics and good luck.
Never have had a mount work loose. Hmmm.

Sub MOA is sub MOA at any distance. I'm a little confused by that. If they all shot well before the new scopes thats where I'd start. Check for loose screws. What kind of scopes are they? What do you mean you hit 2.5" left? What are the group sizes? Cheap ammo?

to be sub MOA at 25 yards you would have had to have a single hole even with the 17hmr

at 50 you could have had a spread of less than 1/2 inch


when you were on paper at 25 yards did you have to move the turret adjustments a long way to get there?

if you shot at 25 then 50 then 100 did you have to make a correction at 50 after you were on at 25 ?

on your bases , all the screws in most of the way wiggled the base around then tightened them end , end , middle , middle , end , end , middle , middle a little at a time with locktite on the threads till they were all down even then torqued them all to 20 inch pounds

then set the rings on the base and moved them tot eh forward edge of the groove and tightened to 25 inch pounds

then laid the optic in after going from side to side and back to middle with the turret and top to bottom and back to middle , slid the optic gently back and forth a bit to make sure it wasn't binding in the rings

then put the top half of the rings on loosely then slowly worked them all down where you wanted your scope to be so that they were all going down evenly then torqued in a X pattern to 20 inch pounds with locktite on all the threads

if you can start at 25 fire 3 they should be basically touching , then at 50 nearly touching , then at 75 then at 100 if you have things on crooked you will keep having to adjust windage at each distance you have the optic out of line with your bore.


it is completely possible to have a scope dead on at one distance but if it is not parallel to the bore it will be off and more at each further distance

The 223 wylde is an ar so sits on pictanny. One older gentleman next lane over suggested putting on a riser. The hmr is a weaver 4x9 scope on weaver rings and bases (from savage). 308 has a Nikon bdc 3x9, the last time I noticed the rings got loose so I came home leveled and tightened them.

Johnny, 2.5' left I set up a few shoot n see targets aimed far right and it was 2.5' left

Gcp yes I had to move turrets to get there at 25 then a click or 2 at 50 then 100 was way off. No 75 yard at this range. I'll double check the screws but they all feel tight. I'll check the parallel to barrel again on the 308 and the others.

Good advice so far. I will only add that even an extremely hot barrel the shots shouldn't be off that much.

hot barrel is my guess

I'm guessing loose rings to be that far off, especially if you had to adjust for windage at 50, then 2.5'left at 100.

AR's need to get the scope up so that it is 2.5-2.75 inches above bore axis https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1477386787

you can also use a riser but more places to be off axis as you stack riser then rings

it is necessary to take savages work apart and add lock-tite some times cheap insurance

if you bring a box and a rock to toss in the box to hold it down or target stand and place it at 75 for diagnosing

have you torqued the action screws on the bolt action rifles.they also can come loose

nothing should really be good at 25 and less than an inch off at 50 and then be 20 inches off at 100 yards everything should be linear 1 inch off at 25 yards is 2 inches at 50 yards and 4 inches at 100 yards

unless something moved in the scope or with the mounting

even loose action screws only typically account for a few inches

I have seen scopes that you dial in a correction , shoot 2-3 and nothing and you dial in more shoot 2-3 and then one more correction and it jumps the distance of all 3 corrections suddenly and you are way past

tapping the turret with a the soft handle of the screw driver to help it move the retical

One thing I found that helps me (I have a bad flinch at times) is to single load my semi autos when sighting in

30 MOA would be a lot for any barrel to get off when hot 3 or 4 MOA maybe the worst one I have is a shotgun I shoot slugs through that strings vertically each round hitting about 3/4 of an inch higher at 100 yards than the last for 5 rounds.

Two and a half FEET left @ 100 not inches. He posted that twice i still say back to basics
Could be something as simple as ricochet off a sandbag sticking out past the muzzle. Don’t laugh, I saw a guy shoot three grooves across the roof of his pickup shooting at a gopher about fifty yards out and couldn’t believe he was shooting a foot and a half high.

So going through them earlier the 17 had a loose screws on the top right side of the rings. Tightened the thumb screw on the 308. I think those loose screws might be the issue.

Gcp thanks for the link. Yup action screws were torqued down.
Wolf dog, I was loading 1 at a time.
Cmcf, that's interesting. The barrels were well past the bags

Thank you everyone I appreciate it

adam, if your at all interested in accuracy there’s no sense guessing. Start with one rifle at a time, take everything off and start fresh. I would highly recommend a scope mounting kit with lapping bars and a torque driver. You would be surprised how uneven rings can be aligned even on a one piece mount. Start with the base, use some removable loctite, just a tiny dab on each screw and tighten them up to torque specs. Next lap the rings until there completely evenly lapped. Then mount the scope, again a tiny dab of removable loctite and torque to specs. Not only is it the proper way to do it but it takes out the guess work. After that it comes down to the trigger and the ammo assuming you got a good barrel. Good crisp clean breaking triggers can make a world of difference. Then start playing with ammo, at this point you can start worrying about sub moa. Also practice your breathing and take a couple dry fire practice shots in between live rounds.

this is the type of kit Keystone is talking about
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009245338
I have this one , makes mounting optics much easier to get right in a short time.


I would agree if you found problems in the mounting I would take it all the way to the receiver and come back up right.

the Torque wrench and procedure are the two biggest parts in my mind , the levels and a way to hold the gun level be it a gun vice or a padded vice or I know gun shop owner who uses a drill vice when mounting optics lots of ways to do it and get a good result , some fo the tools make it easier.

the kit is just handy because for not that much more than the tourqe wrench alone you get all of it. or if you have a friend with the kit

this is also why many people take their gun to a smith or store to have the scope mounted , I like to learn how to do it myself

when I did my first scope it was on my rem742 when I was 14 I got everything rested on the work bench and the rifle square using the level on a combination square off the side of the receiver and then got the cross hairs strait to the mortar joints on the far basement wall.

went slow torqued everything best I could with the little allen wrench I got with the rings locktited everything 28 years later when I took that scope off everything was still tight, the lock tite keeping it all in place and I had not touched the zero on the rifle in all those years , same ammo , when I was 14 I would get paid and rife my bike to the hardware store and buy a box of 30-06 I did that for a while till the price jumped , I should have kept doing it I have a couple of those boxes 30 years later.

also in the words of a national compeditor long range shooter sub moa isn't a concern , MOA all day every day hot cold damp dry chasing sub mos isn't a worry if you can do moa all day

a friend was shooting a rimfire clinic with us he had not locktited his scope . he shoots distinguished but he has rushed on getting this rifle together the night before it shot great till mid afternoon day one then he just can't figure out what is happening he is chasing a zero groups are opening up it is a 2 day clinic he goes home that evening and takes it all down , loose screws , he became a real believer in blue locktite

Yep just what Keystone and Green Country Pete said Back To Basics. Oh wait....

here are some videos

this first one is the classic mounts with lapping



the second is a guy who shoots precision rifle series

a few things in his video , he would normally push the front ring forward but his rails is short and he was already a touch short on eye relief I would have gone to a cantilevered ring for that I value eye relief this is also why I use EWG rails on my guns because I know I need extra rail off the front of the receiver.
also notice them using different torques , look at the mounts and rings follow what that says and use lock tite.
he does not lap , it isn't as necessary with some rings Vortex sells what they call no-lap rings as an example.
many wasy to level the gun it doesn't have to be some expensive tool
he points out using the level on the Target turret may not be good and demonstrates why , on the non target turret scopes this is less of an issue the caps are threading down tight or you can use the ledge around the adjustment where you are on the threaded part the cap screws down to
this guy also does not use lock tite I disagree with that , it works for him maybe using 200 dollar rings makes you not need locktite. a little locktite is good insurance to me.
notice the x pattern torque , I like that
I have had good experience with Weaver quad lock rings they are typically under 20 a set , some guys won't use anything Aluminum , they work for me and I am always on a budget.
on a hunting gun I wouldn't worry about a level on the scope , this is a PRS gun and he has time to set up on long shots far beyond where you should be shooting game , at reasonable hunting distances it is just something to snag on things.

If you're changing the zoom level on the scope and it's changing POI then it's the scope. I've got a bunch of cheaper scope that do this. One is so bad you can sight in at 3x and zoom it to 9x and it shifts POI 2" left and 1/2" up at 100 yards. I just keep them at 3x and they work fine.

Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Yup going to take everything down. I'll pick up a kit. I have a weaver scope level. I've never lapped the rings. I'll look for a 30mm kit.

The scope on the 308 was mounted at cabelas over a yr ago. The 17hmr came with the scope already mounted.

Johnny I was thinking about it and realized once I moved the zoom on the 308 that's when it was way off. 10 and 25 yards on 9 power was way too much power at that range so I dropped it down. But also noticed the ring screws were loose last night. So it's hard to say if it was the scope itself or the screws or both.

Those are great videos. I like how he leveled there scope from the bottom which makes sense