N50, Ok here's a marten for you, but I had no idea I was in jail !

Love it! I wish half of the taxi examples would have the ear, eye, and nose position that you so easily depict.

I can say that where I trap, micro-habitat is the key phrase. On the ABC islands, you may have whole stretches of coastline and valleys that support marten, my line(s), have little holes, if you will, that will produce all the mustilids. I'm talking ermine to gulo.
I can have sets 100 yards down the beach, or less, using the same everything, and catch nothing. I ask myself, "why here?", constantly, and keep trying wheel spokes, but still no answer.
Frustrating, and I know I trap in vertical terrain, but still, I am talking VERY specific sets that produce. Miss it by even 100 feet, miss it by a mile.

^^^^
Same experience for me. There are apparently very subtle but important things that we just don't see.

Waggler we had this discussion at the Minn convention a few years ago. Road side warriors who set on the edge of roads do not realize the micro habitats they are setting in. Those plow zones with the turned up soil create a good medium for vegetation growth and fungus growth = key red back vole food = key marten food = hunting zone.
Being put last on the program to present you missed the major group of people to present to Waggler. but- I know that the several Manitobans in that crowd probably equaled the total harvested a full years take of marten in Minn

Thanks Sharon, knew you had some wonderful art work. With the winter apex of the needle cover just coming off; I would put that picture being done in May-June

^^^^
Wow, so that was you I spoke with about soil fugus, I never made the connection with your name on here.
I was thinking about that exact conversation (soil fungus, and red-backed voles) earlier today while reading this thread.

Going back to the original question. Yes, you can have a decent summer/fall marten population and then with little to no voles they will starve in early winter or move. Happens here.

I have an advantage over many trappers, I live on my first marten set. Therefore, I witness what the entire year is like, not a slice of time.

I do pretty much the same, and one thing that is certain where I trap. Throughout late summer/fall into the early trapping season, the marten population around the lakes will be pretty dense. I will often see them while hunting moose even. This is at an elevation of about 2200 feet. By the middle of December, or even earlier some years, they will begin to move into higher elevations.

Back in the 80s-90s they did a long term study on red backed voles in the Kluane area. I believe the study went on for 10 or more years. They looked at a lot of things that might effect the vole population, including predation. They found the same thing gulo did. Snow depth was the limiting factor. More snow is better. I believe thats why traplines at about 3500-feet are consistently more productive in our area. Those areas get a more consistent snowpack year to year. The trapline just east of mine belonged to a good friend for almost 3 decades. The entire trapline sits at an elevation of 3500-4500 feet. Not one spot on the line is lower than 3500. The average number of marten this fellow took over all those years was 150 marten per season. Some years he took over 300, but it averaged out to 150 a year, and his effort was pretty consistent. My youngest daughter and her husband own that line now, and their catch has mirrored the previous owners.

^^^^^^
Do you suppose that marten seek out areas with better subnivian conditions? If so is it because the hunting conditions are better, the drier conditions are easier on the marten, or??

In the Washington Cascade mountains marten are seldom found below about 3000 feet; that is the elevation where a considerable amount of deep snow remains on the ground all winter. Below that elevation it is generally wet with back and forth rain and snow.

Studies have shown that below 3000 feet there are still plenty of voles. I would be inclined to think that marten are seeking out drier living conditions rather than seeking out a food source. That being said, I doubt that winter conditions below 3500 like you (Yukon254) describe are wet and soggy like they are in the Cascades.

All this marten insight is very fascinating. I have trapped marten but in limited numbers in a very small area and always wondered why I would catch them in some sets and not others despite the same terrain. My higher marten catch years always coincided with higher vole numbers.

All very good info,I figured nice,red squirrel,ruffed grouse and snowshoe hare made up most of their diet.

Did you ever maybe think their diet may be seasonal?

Marten also cache food.

I think staying dry is very important to marten. We have all caught some during a rain storm and it is easy to see actual skin between clumps of hair. Some of them seem to never look right even when dried on the board. ButIhave no doubt they lose body heatquickly when wet


Dave: what is timberline in that are your daughter is now trapping ? I my country timberline can be as low as a thousand feet MSL. I'm pretty sure marten go there occasionally. There isn't a lot of ground cover for voles and no overhead cover for marten unless there are a lot of jumbled rocks. I have seen a very few yellow cheeks in that environment but not enough to support a marten population.




I have stooped so low...........as to lay down in the snow to try to see the terrain as the critter sees it. Specifically why a wolverine travels where he does instead of 20 feet to the left or right. So far I have achieved no great insight ! I think they know where they are going generally and, like water, they will take the easiest route getting there.

I started trapping marten 5 decades ago. I cut lines all over the place prospecting. I have never deliberately crawled on the ground looking for what goes on under the snow but the last few years because of old age i spent time face down in the snow LOL When I started all the information I had was from an old time trapper was that the marten move sometimes in herds so have your sets out. So over the years that is how I trapped marten, lots of sets baited attractors ready to go. 6 or 8 sets per mile.
The last 3-1/2 decades I trapped an area that the trail head was at around 1000 ft. elevation. Creek bottom, large cottonwoods, spruce and willows. I ran the creek bottom to the head waters which were at 3200 ft. elevation. Back when we had really cold winters and not much snow and lots of glaciers in the valley I couldn't catch a marten, no food. As I developed the area I prospected ridges on both sides of the narrow valley and that is where I found the marten. I did have some help though. A fur buyer told me her flew my area years prior to my being given the line and he saw marten runs like rabbit runs but told me he wouldn't tell me exactly where I would have to find the area myself. That was my motivation to push on.
The valley produced marten early if the creek crossings allowed early access. As it became colder and darker the less marten were there except the years when the herd would happen. To my thinking when the herd occurred it was because of the food source. I probably ran more sets than were needed because there were areas that never produced.
As I proceeded to prospect onto the ridges is where the marten were but not everywhere. The consistent areas were where snow would be deep all winter, sunlight would hit and the inversion would keep it warmer than the valley, 20 degrees or more. A cold snap, than snow would be like crack to the marten they would come to life even invading my wall tent looking for something to destroy!
I remembers snow shoeing in country where snow would be deep and walking over and falling through a hare run and It became my belief that the marten lived under the snow in this high country and that gave them access to voles ptarmigan, hares as well as berries and other food. One ridge in particular produced most of my catch. I would trap it every other year or 2 years trapped1 year rest. It produces to this day and was burned over a bunch of years ago.
As the years moved on there were areas that I did not trap but knew there were marten and I called those areas my nursery. No matter how much a Marten would bring I believe that it takes seed areas to farm your line.
I was fortunate to come to Alaska when there was areas that available and there was a code between trappers that if an area was trapped everyone stayed out of that area and I could farm my area as I saw fit.. Today the code of ethics has all but gone the way of its all about me individuals. Too many new trappers have said I came here to trap and you can't stop me, new code of ethics!
Trapping pressure and the distance between lines has a real impact on especially marten . I have first handed experience. One of the areas I called my nursery was a 3 mile ridge off my main trail. I knew there were always marten there and left it alone. I took the wrong person with me and he claimed it as his and my catch on the main trail went to 0. He hammered that ridge and his catch went to a few.
OH SNAP

My first experience see lots of marten in the summer was in the river systems around Telegraph Creek BC and close to the Yukon/Alaska/BC boarder. The fellow I worked with liked it so much he sold his houses in Calgary and bought the gas station/restaurant/cabins there and started trapping marten in the winter. RIP Mike Jones cause he drown trapping what he loved. The high plateau they sure did have what Oh Snap was explaining= highways in the bog laurel vegetation. They would stand up as the helicopter flew over, almost looked like ground squirrels on the prairie landscape.
I know in northern Manitoba that the glacial beach ridges are highways for them to travel on especially south of Hudson Bay. When the marten travel on them and guys are set up it's go time. Maybe Scottermac can shine in on some of the guys in the Gilliam area and their catches. 5 dozen spare traps was not enough to swap out on their daily route,

Northof 50 what did you do around telegraph creek? What year would it have been? I live up in Atlin BC
I own a trapline on the historic telegraph trail route.

Like this mount from Robertson Taxidermy in YellowKnife NWT

Some of those Northern trappers show up year after year with in the neighborhood of 200 marten to our Thompson fur tables. This year in my area there are a lot of marten especially YOTY, we had a record amount of rainfall this past summer which produced lush vegetation. This in my eyes produced an abundance of food sources which I believe paved the way for a higher survival rate of young. They had lots of ground cover and food. Now so far our winter has been tough, lots of snow with a late freeze up then plus degree weather before the super cold hit creating a crust. It will be interesting to see what happens next year.

Well, I've been busy, "managing" my line, getting some new lines setup, so been to busy to comment, but have been following this thread a bit...... I try to refrain from getting to involved in any of these threads, since it takes time out of the fur shed, and off the line to do so, and I'm currently keeping plenty busy. Plus, I try not to "offend" anyone by disagreeing with some people's ideas or input, so I find it easier to just not comment. First off, I have nothing by the utmost respect for most of those already commenting on this thread, so PLEASE don't take any offence to anything I say, or put forward, as none of it is intended to be disrespectful, or disagreeable, just my personal opinions/ observations.

I only have a few minutes here, but will add further comments, if I have any free time, in the evenings....

For the original poster rick olson: How do you define a "bumper" crop of marten? Were you getting reports from hunters? Personally seeing them everywhere? First things first.... After the YOY marten mature enough, to get out on their own, they will, like many species, go through a "Fall dispersal" phase, where the YOY are looking for a home range of their own, suitable to be able to support themselves calorically upon (prey base), and having the required habit. This Fall dispersal phase can create outmigration from an area, to some extent, if you were seeing marten in a few select areas of habitat. Say for example, 3 females each have a litter of 4, in a few hundred acre stretch of timber, where throughout the summer you observed, or it was reported to you there were "marten everywhere!" So you had 3 adult females, maybe 3 adult males, and the 12 YOY marten, so a total of 18. This DOES not mean that come FALL, those 18 marten are still going to be in that same area of habitat. Probably the bulk of the YOY will die of natural causes, before winters end, predation, starvation, cannibalism, injuries, (in your part of the country, probably roadkill), etc. Same goes for the adults, any of those six adults, or ALL, could die before Fall, due to any number of circumstances. Then, as the survivors go through the Fall dispersal/ outmigration, you could easily be left with only 1 or 2, or even none, left in that pocket of habitat, especially if the outmigration is caused by a seasonal diet change, or food shortage, which absolutely does occur with marten. Maybe you were talking about a larger scale abundance, like statewide? Without knowing more details, I don't want to hazard a guess, but you can imagine, if the "waves" of marten come and go across a huge state like Alaska, they could certainly do similar things over a much smaller state like Minnesota, and leave large areas at relatively low abundance.

Perhaps W17 or Gulo have some idea of the "average" attrition rate of YOY marten, but of course, it will vary by location, and from year to year. During food shortages, there will be almost total reproductive failure, or very minimal survival by the YOY. The delayed implantation, and short gestation period marten under go, can lead to the females just reabsorbing the blastocysts. Or the kits may just not survive, due to a lack of food for the female, at any stage during the pregnancy, or nursing period. What I have always seen, during the crash years, is an overabundance of large adult males, which I suspect have survived, due to "survival of the fittest, and perhaps cannibalization from the large males, to some extent, also explains the lack of YOY and females. The next couple years after seeing this scenario, it is imperative to curb trapping efforts, or you can delay the recovery, if you harvest your line to heavily. This would be because the overabundance of adult males indicates a LARGE scale population dynamic change, over a large area.

A few other notes, if rain killed marten, I wouldn't be catching them!! I'll see months on end of rain, with NO breaks (ie. days without rain), this is all throughout the year.

Some key things to remember. Everywhere is different, different topography, prey bases, weather patterns, precipitation, snow levels, habitat, latitude, longitude, amount of sunlight, soil types, elevation, vegetation, prey abundances, these all lead to different carrying capacities, for every species in that area. Those carrying capacities vary, from year to year, depending upon, moisture, sunlight, prey abundance, etc. Everything is in a state of flux, all the time, nothing stays the same. There are very few hard, fast rules that apply to all regions of marten habitat. Every area needs to be assessed at the time it is going to be trapped. I've always found the simplest, most successful way to manage my line is through catch rates. I don't worry about tracking the adult female to YOY ratio much, if the catch rates are sky high. If catch rate/ abundance is high, that tells me my areas of refugia, that go untrapped, will have enough breeders to reproduce, and bring more Fall dispersing marten back into the suitable habitat areas I'm trapping, by next year. An EXTREMELY important thing to be careful of with marten, is the duration of time you leave sets in any given location. This gets at what Gulo mentioned about interior trapping (and I totally agree with), around areas like Fairbanks or Anchorage. Many of those lines get set at the start of the season, and remain set ALL season. To be properly managing a line, you usually can harvest the surplus animals in 2-4 trap checks, and then should probably pull that line, and set up in a totally different area. Of course this means tons of work, always setting traps, and covering huge areas, but that is how to consistently catch good numbers, years after year, without self induced population spirals. Unfortunately, in the areas of higher human population densities, the first to the resource race, hobby trappers, greedy guys, etc. will probably always keep populations pinned much lower than they would be, with proper management. Pretty hard to manage everyone surrounding your line, especially when prices go high.

I'm sure I drove ADF&G biologists nuts, while conducting fisheries surveys, always asking them questions, and giving them input to consider. Not necessarily disagreeing ; ) just respectfully introducing different ideas for them to exercise some critical thinking skills upon, and consider. ie. making them think "outside the box" of rules that aren't ALWAYS correct. It seems to me, that biology and some biologists, want to put every species in a box, with certain "rules" that apply to that species, without considering that nobody ever told that particular species, or individual, the set of "rules", it is supposed to abide by ! HA! This certainly goes for marten, as over their entire range, much of it covered by trappers on this thread, there is obviously an abundance of different behaviors, habitats, population densities, prey dynamics, seasonal diet changes, etc.

Thank you for the time to comment Trapped4ever.
The Michelin rubber test is always a good indication of fall dispersal in the lower range of the marten.

Keeping the state and federal bio's on their toes is what that Univ prof taught with his question and two answers ploy.

Maybe Doric will comment because he is way out on the barren ground his observations.