Quote from White:
Just based on the tooth aging that Gulo did from my line, I have to conclude that marten, in a trapped population, do not grow to old age.

Since no one ever supplies skulls/teeth from untrapped populations, how do you know this to be different than untrapped populations?

And, back to this from Gulo: But, first and foremost, it is the voles that "run the system".

And another quote from Gulo: In hindsight, it would have been much smarter and better for all of us if we'd had a self-imposed moratorium for a year or two on marten; let the population recover, then enjoy the fruits of our "management".
Then this from T4E: The next couple years after seeing this scenario, it is imperative to curb trapping efforts, or you can delay the recovery, if you harvest your line to heavily.

So I ask, which is it, food, or trapping, that controls marten populations?

Alaska has huge expanses of wilderness with much of it being marten habitat. Obviously some areas better then others. If trapping controls an areas population, then there should be huge areas in this state with high marten numbers if a trapper can just get to them. In my experience this isn't true. An untrapped area can be just as devoid of marten as a heavily trapped area. In untrapped areas, marten numbers change as the habitat/food changes. The same must happen in trapped areas.

I'm not going to say that trapping never has any effect on an areas marten. But there are so many other variables effecting marten that trapping can't be the single biggest effect year after year.

One more item...........in interior Alaska, there is one more thing that effects marten................FIRE.

Just jumped back in tonight and haven't read all 8 pages yet.

Martentrapper better take a antihistamine before you read the back 8 pages. It will settle down the flea bites and the itching

martentrapper,

Honestly, both trapping and food supply will obviously affect the overall marten populations, along with a multitude of other factors, both current and historical, for example weather conditions, fires, topography, vegetation/ soil types, moisture, large scale logging, predation, disease?, parasites?, starvation, poison, etc. etc. countless variables........

I think like I've said before, you always have to look at the "big picture" of the overall area you are trapping. Refugia? Adjacent trapping areas? How many marten are realistically available (carrying capacity), for the region you want to trap, and of those, how many can you safely harvest, without to drastically affecting the number that would have died of natural causes, whether you trapped the area or not? So many scenarios and big picture variabilities, these are impossible questions to answer. I have stated before on here, and I'll say it again, in areas that have proper surrounding refugia, I have many times experienced marten populations that continue to climb, no matter how many I trap, for 4-6 year stretches. When the populations are going down, there are entire drainages I can leave fallow for years, and the numbers (tracks) will continue to decrease, along with everywhere else on the line, so I'm certainly not the one driving those numbers down, and no one else is trapping ANYWHERE near these drainages, so it is a nature induced decline. Now, if there are 20 marten left in that drainage, does me going in and harvesting 18 of them help that population recover?? Certainly not!! Does it mean those 20 will survive and bear young if I don't? Nope, but it is one variable I CAN control. I try to manage as conservatively as possible, with the exception of those years, when I'm seeing those large numbers of adult males, that seem to be cannibalizing (starving) every marten they encounter, and the vast majority of the harvest is older adult males, then I know they are going down hard.

I agree, you are absolutely right, untrapped areas that are good habitat, do not automatically mean good marten numbers. Over the whole range of my trapping career, I've found if I'm in good habitat, with proper refugia and no close competition, when numbers are climbing, my trapping seems to have pretty minimal effect, as both the untrapped, and trapped drainages seem to be holding similar densities, when next season rolls around ( just judging by sign, so some margin of error is possible). Conversely, when populations are falling, I've found drainages left fallow, decrease as rapidly, and possibly faster, than the rest of my line I'm trapping, in the same season. Again, this seems to be a natural decline, not induced by human activity/ trapping.

My experience with fires in the interior, with the right soil types, 3-5 years after a fire, once the grass growth exploded, so did the microtines, as long as there was some proper refugia nearby, to provide outmigration. Marten numbers in some burns went considerably higher than they had traditionally been, 5-6 years after a fire. Not all burn areas seem to bounce back the same though. I would assume depending upon the overall size of the burn, how hot of a burn (crown fire, brush& grass too??), soil type, other variables that might effect regrowth of vegetation, sunlight, moisture, soil acidity, etc.etc. Always just more variables and questions!!!

I doubt if any of my rambling nonsense has been very helpful, but if you are asking statewide, REALLY BIG PICTURE, I would say trapping pressure doesn't contribute MUCH to the population swings of marten, except in the areas of dense human populations, which tend to lead to areas of over trapping. The majority of marten range in the state never sees a trap. I would even venture to guess (pure speculation) that areas with proper trapping management, usually will long term produce more YOY marten, than areas that go untrapped, for decades, as proper trapping management often seems to lessen the peaks and valleys of prey species left to natural cycles (more consistent, stable production). This doesn't mean trapping low populations, or overharvesting, won't have even worse consequences than an untrapped populations' low point, of a natural cycle. So once again, I tend to pull back on the ONE variable I CAN control, when I think the situation warrants.


Northof50,

Thanks for the pictures and comments. I can supply as many external parasites as you care to examine!! I stated earlier, most marten here have dozens of fleas, but I wouldn't be surprised, if they were all removed, to find the number in the hundreds. I know as I brush the marten before skinning, the fleas are swarming all over, trying to get away, and jumping off onto the floor, table, etc. My little rolling table, next to where I skin, is literally crawling with them, most nights.

W17,

This isn't to far from "Plastic Lake". Haven't been up there for 12 or 13 years now. Marten populations doing OK in that region these days? Sure wish I could have that weather, down here!! Suffered through 13" of rain in 36 hours, for the first 2 days of trapping season, this year!

If you are counting on refugia to repopulate the area you trapped, then doesn't that imply the refugia has a higher marten population since it was not trapped?

The dispersal will be from the higher density area to the lower density area. We created a vacuum.

"Your area, reasonably managed, is providing dispersing marten into Goober's line, but his area is hammered, and it's contributing no dispersers back your way. Get enough Goobers around you, and it matters little how well you manage your line. "

Goober needs me to provide his marten.

In the southeast Yukon where I've trapped for the last 30 years trapping has no effect on the population. Im not sure that you could over-trap an area if you tried. The registered line system ensures no competition from other trappers and the traplines are just to big. My trapline is just over 1200 sq miles. My trail system basically goes right up the center with a few trails shooting off into another drainage here and there. This leaves the vast majority of the line as a refuge so I am always getting some dispersal. My closest neighbour is my daughters line 30-miles to the east. The trapline to the north, has been trapped very little over the last 30years and the lines to the south, and west have never been trapped in my lifetime. I keep my sets out longer than others have described to no ill effect.

Biggest down fall of the Yukon registered traplines is the lack of trapping, has been an issue there for 30 years at least. Dave do you still see years of low numbers?

Good point Mike. The reason I said that is that one individual that was 14 years old was either a resident or an immigrant from elsewhere. I "assumed" he was from elsewhere because no other individuals came even close to his age. It could be that he had just never encountered a trap before. BUT, if that's the case then it would be reasonable to think there are others like him in the population. I doubt that's the case but it is possible.

Looking back at the records I have, I see that after trapping that line for 15 years I had one female and one male that were 8 years old. Five years later I had one female that was seven and one female that was five years old.
I think it's not unreasonable to think those individuals came from outside the trapped area. Maybe not though

That sounds like awful weather!! Fortunately we don't get rain very often but the wind can be formidable, especially around Plastic Lake !! Nothing like yours of course !

Populations are still grim !

We did see widespread decline like Ken mentioned in the beginning of this thread, but I wouldnt say the lack of trapping has hurt the marten population. I havent seen anything to suggest that anyway. Some ares always produce well and others seldom do. The one area I mentioned earlier that has more marten sign than anywhere Ive ever been has to my knowledge never been trapped. If you are good on google earth have a look at the Dendale Lake area in the extreme southeast. Thats the area Im talking about.

Another area that has always produced extremely well is a trapline north of Watson. Over the last 30 years that Ive been in the area that line has consistently produced 200-300 marten. The amazing thing is it produces those numbers with only about 20 miles of trail. Ive hunted the area before and its right in the middle of the mountains. My trapline has always been known as a consistent producer as well. The lakes, rivers and creeks make for a very rich ecosystem with a pretty reliable food source.

Here is a picture of my boundaries. My main
trails run pretty much straight up the lakes.

Always have loved topo maps. Studied them for years . Even taken my pencils and shaded them in , as late sun on the ranges.

The many variables in changes, food, weather, everything together, shows me the admirable versatility and intimate knowledge of the land pulse that make trappers such amazing qualified educators.

I keep thinking, the summary of it all, like an accomplished group of very skilled musicians , who in the moment can change directions at any time to compensate with versatile improvisations unplanned and unforeseen.

Changing plans at any time they see the land pulse changing direction.

Such great melding in experience from everyone here.

As for the lice and fleas.....even if they didn't bite or infect humans, I would just have to have a system for me to not see or feel them on me...UGH .......

Just for you Sharon are you not glad this guy is under a microscope camera.
M. ermine washed hair makes them glossy

Marten and ermine fleas that I've seen are wimpy. Slow and easy to crush. Lynx fleas are a lot faster and tougher. All of them are nasty.

Out of all the marten I've caught, mostly in the Nowitna drainage, I rarely see fleas. Ocaisionally have seen a skinny bug, longer than thicker, crawl out of the fur but nothing in any numbers. I did once shoot a mink that had a thousand white fleas crawl to the end of each guard hair a couple hours after it died. This wasn't on the Nowitna tho. Also have caught marten just outside of Unalakleet. Don't recall much for fleas on them. I'll admit I never looked much at ears but must have seen enough that I would have noticed parasites.

N50.....UGH !!!!!!!

I am so sensitive to feel , even a hint felt by me results in action !

I do it with deer and elk I butcher, looking out for them.

Thank you for the education, I need that to be informed.

As they say; in the conservations about fleas and ticks;
Stimulating tactile sense...butt...nothing to do with sex.

Dirt,
I feel for you, being surrounded by "Goobers". I would say, to answer the question I think you are asking, ask yourself a few things. Is the carrying capacity of your refugia at a higher or lower population density than the area of line you are trapping?? You can certainly have outmigration from refugia at either higher, or lower population densities than the area of line you are trapping. This isn't uncommon, going either direction. If an area of "better ground" comes open, due to you thinning out the higher carrying capacity region, why wouldn't a marten from a less abundant region relocate to the now free range in the land of milk & honey? Obviously, the circumstances you laid out, by creating a vacuum, you can also draw marten in from areas of higher population density too, but it's not always the case. I know around my line, I have many areas of refugia, at both higher and lower population densities than my line is. Higher density areas are higher density for a reason, right?? Conditions are obviously optimal for marten survival, or they wouldn't stick around.

Another thing to consider, a regions carrying capacity can change, throughout the year, since, for example, microtine populations can explode, in short order. Most females of the vole species reach sexual maturity within 2 weeks of birth. Voles gestation periods are generally somewhere in the 16-24 day range, so they can be birthing their own litters, a month after they themselves are born. With an average litter sizes of 5-8, it's easy to see how a population can expand exponentially, quite rapidly. When this occurs, in many instances, this is going to increase carrying capacity, and due to the marten having a much slower lag in reproductively being able to capitalize on this new found food source, this new vole bonanza could instigate a scenario of marten being drawn from surrounding areas of both lower, and higher population densities. Sometimes I talk in a circle, until I wind up with my foot in my mouth, so maybe my "logic" isn't really making sense to anybody but me????HA!

Makes sense to me !

The microtine population can change from year to year. Remember when doing live small mammal live trapping in a Lymes tick reproducing area from a 70% trap night capture ( 200x5=1000 trap nights) to 0.001 rate when you took out the shrew captures ( they are much longer life cycles) from one year to the next. That is one reason the tick can wait around a couple of years till it does get a blood meal to continue it's cycle, so a 5 year cycle for some Ixodes is normal.

Boreal ecology is understudied to say it simply.

I've always been a bit skeptical when carrying capacity is referred to. The whole idea bothers me. In my opinion, K (carrying capacity) can, and does, change daily. For red-backed voles, for example, an ice storm in February might change K overnight, from a habitat that can support 200 individuals per acre, to a habitat that supports 2. The whole idea is fraught with pitfalls. Is it the maximum number of individuals that an area can sustain over the course of a year? Well, because of weather vagaries, each year is different. Is it some percentage of that maximum, allowing for stochastic events? Again, that percentage varies. On the other hand...

Despite what scientists say, K (for whatever species) is a fleeting number. By the time that number has been arrived at with any scientific certainty, it has changed.

Sorry for the monkey wrench.

Jack