Those two videos are real good.
It's a lot different than hunting with a rifle for sure
You said on left target I moved my three fingers, the right hand fingers?
I'll try shots with one hand like marty suggested
I'll work on the grip, I'm guessing I'm not holding it tight enough and possibly not locking my wrists
Thanks for the videos
I've seen that guy before, he sure knows his stuff

all depends , I have gotten them through car doors , it is a matter of what it hits inside the door 1980s ford Festiva it made it through the outer door hit the rolled down window and didn't pernitrate the insulation and plastic door panel

we were shooting an old shovel , steel I think it was an old Acme tool company head , the handle had busted off years ago and it had been sitting on the scrap pile

if you hit where the edge temper was it didn't go through but if you shot the middle of the shovel head it did , you can't rely on it stopping a 22lr from 50 yards

9mm fmj penitrates around 6 inches of construction lumber but if you space them out 16 inches you get through only about 3 inches

the bullet pushes material around it you typically can't push a bullet through the hole left in construction lumber

I sure wouldn't trust a car door to stop a 9mm but they sometimes do if it hits the laminated metal supports or at enough angle

there are all sorts of you tube videos of people shooting all manner of things with different ammo to see what it will and won't pernitrate


thick books actually do very well at stopping bullets even better if you put some lexan or sheet metal inside the front cover , middle of the book and under the rear cover and tape it all shut

something hard to deform the bullet then lots of layers to slow it down

Use two hands. When you are pulling on the trigger and at the same time your moving the three fingers on the grip. Bill does a good job of explaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH01sQ2D1So



Those two videos are real good.
It's a lot different than hunting with a rifle for sure
You said on left target I moved my three fingers, the right hand fingers?
I'll try shots with one hand like marty suggested
I'll work on the grip, I'm guessing I'm not holding it tight enough and possibly not locking my wrists
Thanks for the videos
I've seen that guy before, he sure knows his stuff[/quote]

I believe the message is 'aiming is useless until you can discharge the gun without moving it'.

copper and FMJ punch doors well but don't expand well

it is all a trade off

auto glass is very hard on hollow points , it isn't far from ceramic and ceramic is used for it's very hard surface to break up bullets

the wound channel in the gel block is certainly less than ideal after going through the door steel glass combo. everything is a compromise

I have an uncle who puts in his 15 round magazine for his Beretta F92 fmj , hollo point for rounds 1-9 so round 1.3.5.7.9 are fmj going into the magazine then 6 hollow points

coming out round 1-6 are Hollow points and 7,9,11,13,15 are FMJ

this is his compromise on the compromise

he expects most situations to be close and needing hollow points but if it needs an FMJ for deep penetration or car door punching its in the line up starting with #7

any round that pernitrates car doors also is an issue for walls

any time the discussion of ammo for home defense guns comes up there is the wall penetration safety concern

the same discussion comes up with police , a police chiefs nightmare is there will be a shoot out in the trailer park and some kid gets hit 3 trailers over through 4 walls.
some choose to error on the side of fragmenting ammo like the 55gr Urban TAP rounds basically a V-Max from what I can tell , they will rip through one trailers wall but they are hoping the next trailer in line stops before hurting some one.
if shooting can't be avoided hitting the intended target without barrier is all ways the preferred option that is where marksmanship comes in.

there are bullets that do better at auto glass , generally what happens is the nose cone breaks up an the cylinder hits the target

Sorry Marty. I misunderstood your message and I agree 100% a vice like grip is very important.

I call it firm hand shake grip

you don't want white knuckles as it induces shake

but you don't want it loosey goosy either

grab high in the backstrap of the pistol , aling with the web between inex finger and thumb


it should make a strait line from the muzzle to the center of the back strap of the gun to the web to the wrist bones

center of your trigger finger pad on the center of the trigger

sqweeeze and hold it back through the recoil , when sights are back on target , release to reset and squeeze again repeat as needed

I'll try that, more to it than a beginner would think, I'll try this stuff after the bullets come

I think also I was squeezing the trigger with finger tip, instead of middle of the finger, both guns I can reach trigger jus past the middle.
Those guys in videos sure know their stuff

Lots of good info been posted.

For me the main points I like to be aware of are:

Combative is very different from slow fire target shooting.

The statement made in the first video that I posted 'you have to be able to jerk the trigger without moving the gun' sums it up for me.

There is no time to get your finger on the trigger perfectly and you will have to take what you get and make it good....you may very well only have one hand free to fire your weapon.....you may very well be struggling with someone and need to discharge your weapon....there may very well be no time to aim......you WILL fight as you have trained so think about what may go down and train accordingly.

Thanks for all the good information
Now on the trigger finger, seems trigger comes to the joint of my finger, to put trigger on middle of the finger pad I need to shift my hand, but I see in green county pete's picture it would be out of straight line to target.
So the trigger on my first joint is ok?

22 long rifle at 50 yrds go though a shovel ? Thinking my tile spade I use for trapping, unbelievable at that distance it go though the metal on 22, know nothing 9 mm but I think at that distance a short barrel 9 mm go though tile spade metal, I don't know , I doubt it from 9 mm handgun or 22 rifle

a 22lr is 40gr lead round nose at about 1200fps a fmj 9mm is a 115 or 124 gr coper clad round nose bullet also about 1100 fps I wouldn't be at all surprised if a 9mm goes through a typical garden shovel.

22lr needs more barrel to get up to speed after around 10 inches it doesn't gain much more velocity

9mm uses a fast powder to make 1100fps by about 4 1/2 inches in a 5 or 6 inch barrel it will pick up a little more speed but little is gained after 6 inches so that a 16 inch barrel might be 1400 fps where a 6 inch barrel might be 1300 fps and a 4 inch barrel 1100 fps and a 3 inch barrel 900fps most of your gain are made in the first 4 inches of barrel with some room for added velocity after but not nearly as much

from the tip to the crease of the first joint split that distance typically it is the center of your finger print that center of your finger print goes on the center of the trigger

your also trying to only move the trigger strait back no side to side pressure

get your grip with your dominant hand then loosen and slide the gun out with your other hand so you still the general shape of how you were gripping your hand now don't move any finger besides your index finger move it slowly like your pulling the trigger when you get that control and have the muscle memory to do it with out looking your trigger control improves
then do the other hand
when can do both hands independent and at the same time without looking and your wife can't see any other fingers moving , that is good , then do it faster and see if you can still keep the other fingers from moving.

learning aiming and slow fire has merit for when you need to make the longer shot but knowing which to use is important leaning what you can do at what speed and what distance and making that fit the shot you have to make

I think if rob had a 50 yard shot on a small target he would slow down a half a second make it then speed back up to the point were he can make the shot in the "good enough" zone to make a solid composite score time and hits .

training how you will fight is good
I started with a competition type holster kind of a low end one and I liked the speed however.
I felt like if I was going to be drawing in real life I was likely going to be drawing from concealment so I started running my In the Waistband holster with a cover garment I would be at action pistol and people would ask me if I was shooting tonight , yup walk up when my name was called the gun has to start unloaded so I would have it empty

" does the shooter understand the course of fire " nod my head
"if so load and make ready" I load my gun and re-holster
"is the shooter ready?" head nod
"stand by "
Beep from the timer

am I giving up a half second getting out of the holster , yes I am
but no one even knew I had the gun on me a minute earlier
my hope is I make that half second and then some up with the element of surprise

I went out and tried some faster shooting and multiple shots.
I need to get more used to bringing the red dot in picture faster.
If I get dot in the picture and hold gun like I'm supposed to I did real well on second, third shot, like 3-6" group
At 20 ft
When I shot just pointing I was off a foot or more, if I forget to hold gun right then my shots weren't as good, especially second shot
I totally misunderstood the trigger finger position, now I understand

I had a young lady 16-17 had never shot hand gun before , wanted to try it

sat her down at a bench and had her shoot a 8.5"x11" paper target at about 30 feet she was all over it


then we fixed the grip , and trigger control and she was in the middle of it

the I had her try a 12 inch plate at 65 yards she was hitting it every time , when I started hearing shots without a ding I looked over and she had reloaded and not gotten her grip back right , fix the grip back to all hits

lots of reps of get the grip right , dry fire holster het the grip right , dry fire

then repeat get the grip right fire one round on target , holster get the grip right one round on target.

while I think aiming is important maybe more important than Rob Latham gives the impression of in his video above , he is correct that if you can't pull the trigger without moving the gun it doesn't matter much

you will get so you just know if you got a bad grip out of the holster or have a bad grip by feel and you correct it

it is a lot of muscle memory