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questioning scientists... #7346233
09/02/21 07:17 PM
09/02/21 07:17 PM
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white marlin Offline OP
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I'm noticing a trend over the last few years: it seems like to question a scientist is akin to being the epitome of the Flat-Earthers.

they aren't infallible!

Last edited by white marlin; 09/02/21 07:19 PM.

"necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt the Younger
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346241
09/02/21 07:34 PM
09/02/21 07:34 PM
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Georgia
warrior Offline
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Science has become inflated with self importance and forgotten the original premise of science which is presumption of ignorance leading to research. Humility is accepting what one does not know.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346247
09/02/21 07:47 PM
09/02/21 07:47 PM
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NonPCfed Offline
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The new secular religion, science and government. I see it everyday, they just won't admit that its their religion...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346250
09/02/21 07:48 PM
09/02/21 07:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
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Kansas
Pawnee Offline
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Yes it’s now a big no no. CDC stopped releasing data in May. Your just supposed to read and take to heart what they tell you it says. Same with NAOO and NASA on climate change. Just take our word for it we will tell you the truth!’


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346251
09/02/21 07:48 PM
09/02/21 07:48 PM
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MN
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walleye101 Offline
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Unfortunately science has been politicized like everything else.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346256
09/02/21 07:55 PM
09/02/21 07:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERB🦝 Offline
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Good post for this...excerpt from Aliens Cause Global Warming-lecture from Dr. Michael Crichton

Quote
Worst of all was the behavior of the Scientific American, which seemed intent on proving the
post-modernist point that it was all about power, not facts. The Scientific American attacked
Lomborg for eleven pages, yet only came up with nine factual errors despite their assertion that
the book was “rife with careless mistakes.” It was a poor display, featuring vicious ad hominem
attacks, including comparing him to a Holocaust denier. The issue was captioned: “Science
defends itself against the Skeptical Environmentalist.” Really. Science has to defend itself? Is
this what we have come to?


When Lomborg asked for space to rebut his critics, he was given only a page and a half. When
he said it wasn’t enough, he put the critics’ essays on his web page and answered them in detail.
Scientific American threatened copyright infringement and made him take the pages down.

Further attacks since, have made it clear what is going on. Lomborg is charged with heresy.
That’s why none of his critics needs to substantiate their attacks in any detail. That’s why the
facts don’t matter. That’s why they can attack him in the most vicious personal terms. He’s a
heretic.


Of course, any scientist can be charged as Galileo was charged. I just never thought I’d see the
Scientific American in the role of Mother Church.


Is this what science has become? I hope not. But it is what it will become, unless there is a
concerted effort by leading scientists to aggressively separate science from policy. The late
Philip Handler, former president of the National Academy of Sciences, said that “Scientists best
serve public policy by living within the ethics of science, not those of politics. If the scientific
community will not unfrock the charlatans, the public will not discern the difference—science
and the nation will suffer.”


Personally, I don’t worry about the nation. But I do worry about
science.


Full lecture here: https://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/Crichton2003.pdf

Last edited by SNIPERB🦝; 09/02/21 07:59 PM.
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346259
09/02/21 08:03 PM
09/02/21 08:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Oklahoma
Blaine County Online content
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A fundamental part of science is questioning science.

However to properly do it you have to question science with science. YouTube, Facebook, internet memes and the crap spewed by most politicians is not science. And, the "science" from those sources is rarely credible.


MOLON LABE
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: Blaine County] #7346267
09/02/21 08:16 PM
09/02/21 08:16 PM
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white marlin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Blaine County
A fundamental part of science is questioning science.

However to properly do it you have to question science with science. YouTube, Facebook, internet memes and the crap spewed by most politicians is not science. And, the "science" from those sources is rarely credible.


but what if you're not ALLOWED to question it...

and anyway, I'd submit to you that ANYBODY can/SHOULD not only question, but INTERROGATE "science" !

if it's true "Science", it will stand up to scrutiny, regardless of who asks the questions.

True?

Last edited by white marlin; 09/02/21 08:28 PM.

"necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt the Younger
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346269
09/02/21 08:18 PM
09/02/21 08:18 PM
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Georgia
warrior Offline
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When the university was coopted the grant machine bought the science department.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: warrior] #7346274
09/02/21 08:23 PM
09/02/21 08:23 PM
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Posts: 13,784
Rodney,Ohio
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Originally Posted by warrior
When the university was coopted the grant machine bought the science department.



Everyone remembers the Military-Industrial Complex warning from Eisenhower. They forget this part:

Quote
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346278
09/02/21 08:37 PM
09/02/21 08:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,093
Oklahoma
Blaine County Online content
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Oklahoma
Originally Posted by white marlin
Originally Posted by Blaine County
A fundamental part of science is questioning science.

However to properly do it you have to question science with science. YouTube, Facebook, internet memes and the crap spewed by most politicians is not science. And, the "science" from those sources is rarely credible.


but what if you're not ALLOWED to question it...

and anyway, I'd submit to you that ANYBODY can/SHOULD not only question, but INTERROGATE "science" !

if it's true "Science", it will stand up to scrutiny, regardless of who asks the questions.

True?


Sure, question it. I think common sense is an important component when questioning science but it does not override data and actual rigorous analysis.

And White Marlin, this is not a shot at you. You raised a good point.

Science has always been contaminated to a degree by religion, politics and now it's the darn internet. Everybody thinks they are an expert because they watched some YouTube video or skimmed a Facebook meme.


MOLON LABE
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346323
09/02/21 09:37 PM
09/02/21 09:37 PM
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NonPCfed Offline
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Blaine County- Have you ever published in a peer-review journal...?

I just got back a review that had 4 reviewers. Not one questioned the results I had presented. One of their largest criticisms was there was nothing "new" here, a couple insisted that what I was showing was commonly available, which it isn't given our scope of discussion, frequency of observations, or length of time. The other major criticism when bunched together were questions about the overall project which has been published in several other articles in other journals that none of these people had read or tried to read after I gave them the citations. My geo-statistician, who is far more published than me, said all the reviewers were superficial and we could have easily addressed their concerns. But no, the editor has better things to do and won't answer my e-mail. I guess we move on after Labor Day. This is after two "higher impact" journals wouldn't even send the manuscript out for review. I guess its not sexy enough of a topic or not enough chicken-little attitude about it. Peer review is generally the luck of the draw.

People are still people, and with most "prestigious" people its more about them getting their egos stroked than anything else. My paper will get published, it will just take more time to play the game...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346368
09/02/21 10:24 PM
09/02/21 10:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,174
Southern NJ
maintenanceguy Offline
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We've dumbed down our education system. Specifically science and math. Women and minorities haven't been as successful in these fields - or most likely just not as interested in entering these fields. To solve this problem (that isn't a problem), we're teaching a lot less science in science classes. The less people understand science, the more mystical and amazing it is. Uneducated people don't question scientists - because they aren't able too.


-Ryan
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: walleye101] #7346371
09/02/21 10:25 PM
09/02/21 10:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2021
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PA
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Originally Posted by NonPCfed
The new secular religion, science and government. I see it everyday, they just won't admit that its their religion...


Couldn't agree more. A local Christian radio station did a segment a couple months ago about "scientism". I wish I could remember the speaker, it was very well done.

Originally Posted by walleye101
Unfortunately science has been politicized like everything else.


That is more true than most realize. I close member of my family is a scientist, and for all his academic training and credentials, his scientific opinions are very much influenced by his world view. You can guess which end of the spectrum that is.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346384
09/02/21 10:39 PM
09/02/21 10:39 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 10,499
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Online content
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Not all science.

If you don't question a doctor that states that there are only two genders... and that that is proven by X and Y chromosomes... you are a bigot.

Science is only infallible when it supports the left's agenda.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346398
09/02/21 10:48 PM
09/02/21 10:48 PM
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Arkansas
J
J Staton Offline
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My favorite don't dare follow the science subject has to do with the unborn. The same clowns spewing follow the science vehemently defend not following the science in this situation.


1 Samuel 17:45-47
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: NonPCfed] #7346421
09/02/21 11:20 PM
09/02/21 11:20 PM
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Oklahoma
Blaine County Online content
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Originally Posted by NonPCfed
Blaine County- Have you ever published in a peer-review journal...?

I just got back a review that had 4 reviewers. Not one questioned the results I had presented. One of their largest criticisms was there was nothing "new" here, a couple insisted that what I was showing was commonly available, which it isn't given our scope of discussion, frequency of observations, or length of time. The other major criticism when bunched together were questions about the overall project which has been published in several other articles in other journals that none of these people had read or tried to read after I gave them the citations. My geo-statistician, who is far more published than me, said all the reviewers were superficial and we could have easily addressed their concerns. But no, the editor has better things to do and won't answer my e-mail. I guess we move on after Labor Day. This is after two "higher impact" journals wouldn't even send the manuscript out for review. I guess its not sexy enough of a topic or not enough chicken-little attitude about it. Peer review is generally the luck of the draw.

People are still people, and with most "prestigious" people its more about them getting their egos stroked than anything else. My paper will get published, it will just take more time to play the game...


No. And, by the way, the peer review process has not been great for science.


MOLON LABE
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346447
09/02/21 11:55 PM
09/02/21 11:55 PM
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Rodney,Ohio
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Peer review in the way it's presented to the public is what hasnt been good for science. Especially since in today's world where most people would be lucky to get past the abstract of any study.

Re: questioning scientists... [Re: white marlin] #7346449
09/02/21 11:58 PM
09/02/21 11:58 PM
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Quote
Peer review in the way it's presented to the public is what hasnt been good for science. Especially since in today's world where most people would be lucky to get past the abstract of any study.


Most people could "get" my abstracts because I'm not over technical and I'm anomaly, I actually remember who pays me in the end wink...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: questioning scientists... [Re: NonPCfed] #7346458
09/03/21 12:16 AM
09/03/21 12:16 AM
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Rodney,Ohio
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Originally Posted by NonPCfed
Quote
Peer review in the way it's presented to the public is what hasnt been good for science. Especially since in today's world where most people would be lucky to get past the abstract of any study.


Most people could "get" my abstracts because I'm not over technical and I'm anomaly, I actually remember who pays me in the end wink...

It's not so much about getting it..it's the ability to keep reading past the first paragraph. Not the author's fault generally.

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