Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: HayDay]
#7410912
11/21/21 11:44 AM
11/21/21 11:44 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,731 Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,731
Oakland, MS
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BTW, I have not gone back to review the tape. Not sure if these two represented themselves as husband and wife, or just left it as a guy and a gal who walked through the door together. Seems it would make a difference. Not to me it wouldn't. I don't see a marriage license coming into play here. They presented themselves as a couple. Whether married or not, who cares? Apparently you, who seems to want to bend over backwards for the feds.
~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: yotetrapper30]
#7410913
11/21/21 11:45 AM
11/21/21 11:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259 Missouri
HayDay
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259
Missouri
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With no regard to the precedent it sets? Ok, just buckle down and take it from behind then. The precedent it sets is for the Feds to be able to break their own laws in order to create fake sting operations to beat up gun shops to drive them out of business. That crapola needs to end.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7410916
11/21/21 11:45 AM
11/21/21 11:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,989 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
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OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,989
williamsburg ks
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Not only an unconstitutional law but a violation of state law.
States can make marijuana legal in violation of federal law and the whole world applauds. If a state negates federal gun law however then it must be white supremacy or something. Time to send in the stasi to root out the evil doers.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7410940
11/21/21 12:02 PM
11/21/21 12:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259 Missouri
HayDay
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259
Missouri
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I think Yote and I are arguing for the same thing. Hard to believe it could get this crossthreaded.
But as the story goes........two people walked into the store....one guy....one gal. Relational status unknown.
I believe they picked out 4 guns, she filled out the paperwork in her name. He paid for the guns and they left.
When they walked out the door, who owned the guns?
Feds say he did.......which according to them and their actions, gun shop screwed up.
Paperwork says she did.
Which is right?
BTW, you don't get to pick the common sense answer, which may be both. In the world of Federal law enforcement, common sense does not apply. It has to be one or the other. Cannot be both.
Last edited by HayDay; 11/21/21 12:33 PM.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: HayDay]
#7410946
11/21/21 12:06 PM
11/21/21 12:06 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,731 Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,731
Oakland, MS
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I think Yote and I are arguing for the same thing. Hard to believe it could get this crossthreaded.
But as the story goes........two people walked into the store....one guy....one gal. Relational status unknown.
I believe they picked out 4 guns, she filled out the paperwork in her name. He paid for the guns and they left.
When they walked out the door, who owned the guns?
Feds say he did......meaning gun shop screwed up.
Paperwork says she did.
Which is right?
Her, of course. Anyone that says otherwise did wayyyyy too much acid in the 60's
~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7411007
11/21/21 01:07 PM
11/21/21 01:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,851 KY.usa
rex123
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,851
KY.usa
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I have a feeling after looking that that isn't the only charge they have against him. It is all supposed to be out in a few days. Don't agree with the way they went about it but as Paul Harvey used to say I believe there is a rest of the story.
Last edited by rex123; 11/21/21 01:08 PM.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7411008
11/21/21 01:08 PM
11/21/21 01:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079 Wyoming
cmcf
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079
Wyoming
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According to the BATF&E whoever hands over payment is the defacto buyer. She flled out the paperwork he paid. Busted. What the store should have done and would have corrected the violation, when he pulled out the payment dealer tears up her 4473s and asks the man to fill them out. If he refuses NO SALE. The feds don’t give a flying poke at a rollin donut who’s married to whom. Whoever submits payment does the 4473. Don’t like it but that’s the way it is. In ten years I had at least three baits dangled in front of me I didn’t bite and I didn’t get audited either. One was especially bad. Guy started off wanting a sporter built on his Yugo 48. No problem. Then he switched to wanting me to assemble and rebarrel his FN FAL. Big problem I told him to take his rifle out of my shop no problems.
“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: James]
#7411015
11/21/21 01:12 PM
11/21/21 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,995 rogers city mi.
jeff karsten
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,995
rogers city mi.
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Never said I was. But current law needs some way to stop straw purchases, I guess. What if Drifter was a felon?
I mean, I know he's NOT--but what if?
Jim Why then would they not investigate him or another way is if i bought my son his first deer rifle don't know Mi. laws anymore used to be 17 you can hunt,buy a license on your own is that a "Straw Purchase"
olden tyred
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: cmcf]
#7411024
11/21/21 01:21 PM
11/21/21 01:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259 Missouri
HayDay
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259
Missouri
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According to the BATF&E whoever hands over payment is the defacto buyer. She flled out the paperwork he paid. Busted. What the store should have done and would have corrected the violation, when he pulled out the payment dealer tears up her 4473s and asks the man to fill them out. If he refuses NO SALE. The feds don’t give a flying poke at a rollin donut who’s married to whom. Whoever submits payment does the 4473. Don’t like it but that’s the way it is. In ten years I had at least three baits dangled in front of me I didn’t bite and I didn’t get audited either. One was especially bad. Guy started off wanting a sporter built on his Yugo 48. No problem. Then he switched to wanting me to assemble and rebarrel his FN FAL. Big problem I told him to take his rifle out of my shop no problems. That may be true, but if he is the owner, then she lied and committed a felony too. Says so right on the certification on the form she signed. So can't have it both ways. If gun shop is busted for selling to him, she is also busted for lying on the form she signed.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: HayDay]
#7411037
11/21/21 01:47 PM
11/21/21 01:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,783 Iowa
trapdog1
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,783
Iowa
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I think Yote and I are arguing for the same thing. Hard to believe it could get this crossthreaded.
But as the story goes........two people walked into the store....one guy....one gal. Relational status unknown.
I believe they picked out 4 guns, she filled out the paperwork in her name. He paid for the guns and they left.
When they walked out the door, who owned the guns?
Feds say he did.......which according to them and their actions, gun shop screwed up.
Paperwork says she did.
Which is right?
BTW, you don't get to pick the common sense answer, which may be both. In the world of Federal law enforcement, common sense does not apply. It has to be one or the other. Cannot be both.
Who freaking cares? The gun shop made a nice sale. These people have some new guns. If it were up to me, end of story.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7411063
11/21/21 02:30 PM
11/21/21 02:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079 Wyoming
cmcf
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079
Wyoming
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Try this scenario. Man and girlfriend planning to off the man’s wife. Man knows he can’t pass NICS because his wife swore out a. Domestic violence restraining order. So girlfriend does the paperwork he pays. Not a happy ending. The gun shop I worked in in Houston had close to a dozen attempts at straw purchasers every month. Illegals coming over the border getting a buddy with US citizenship to do the paperwork.. Then the “emigrants “ would pull out a wad of bills HAHA! No sale.
“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: cmcf]
#7411078
11/21/21 02:49 PM
11/21/21 02:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259 Missouri
HayDay
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259
Missouri
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Try this scenario. Man and girlfriend planning to off the man’s wife. Man knows he can’t pass NICS because his wife swore out a. Domestic violence restraining order. So girlfriend does the paperwork he pays. Not a happy ending. The gun shop I worked in in Houston had close to a dozen attempts at straw purchasers every month. Illegals coming over the border getting a buddy with US citizenship to do the paperwork.. Then the “emigrants “ would pull out a wad of bills HAHA! No sale. So what happens to the person signing the paperwork? Form says it's a felony to do so. Does the money buyer and form signer go down too, or only the gun shop?
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: Rat Masterson]
#7411087
11/21/21 02:57 PM
11/21/21 02:57 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 10,544 MN
Steven 49er
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 10,544
MN
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In this particular instance. Law enforcement lies all the time to get you to admit to a crime. SOP. Law enforcement can break the law in investigations.
"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon". Milton Friedman.
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: HayDay]
#7411088
11/21/21 02:58 PM
11/21/21 02:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079 Wyoming
cmcf
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,079
Wyoming
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Try this scenario. Man and girlfriend planning to off the man’s wife. Man knows he can’t pass NICS because his wife swore out a. Domestic violence restraining order. So girlfriend does the paperwork he pays. Not a happy ending. The gun shop I worked in in Houston had close to a dozen attempts at straw purchasers every month. Illegals coming over the border getting a buddy with US citizenship to do the paperwork.. Then the “emigrants “ would pull out a wad of bills HAHA! No sale. So what happens to the person signing the paperwork? Form says it's a felony to do so. Does the money buyer and form signer go down too, or only the gun shop? So using your logic a highway patrol officer would not be allowed to exceed the speed limit chasing down a speeder LOL.
“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: danny clifton]
#7411098
11/21/21 03:10 PM
11/21/21 03:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,965 Oakland, MS
Drifter
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,965
Oakland, MS
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Sounds like a trap was set and the gun owner walked right into it because he had blind faith she filed out all the forms as was required. Some women might not feel safe packing around a wad of cash on their person. Many women's slacks don't even have pockets to pack a wad of bills if they wanted to. I see a lot of unanswered questions about this. Did she hand the weapon to him to pack out or did the shop owner?
Some individuals use statistics as a drunk man uses lamp-posts — for support rather than for illumination.
Andrew Lang (1844-1912) Scottish poet, novelist and literary critic
Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
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Re: ATF fun in Missouri
[Re: cmcf]
#7411100
11/21/21 03:11 PM
11/21/21 03:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259 Missouri
HayDay
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,259
Missouri
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Try this scenario. Man and girlfriend planning to off the man’s wife. Man knows he can’t pass NICS because his wife swore out a. Domestic violence restraining order. So girlfriend does the paperwork he pays. Not a happy ending. The gun shop I worked in in Houston had close to a dozen attempts at straw purchasers every month. Illegals coming over the border getting a buddy with US citizenship to do the paperwork.. Then the “emigrants “ would pull out a wad of bills HAHA! No sale. So another question........legal buyer......say one of us. Illegal buyer gives us the cash..........does not walk in the store with us......in fact is no where near the store.....but it is their cash. We buy the gun.......sign the form, hand over the cash, check or debit card as payment. As far as gun shop is concerned, money buyer and 4473 signor are one and the same. Who, if anyone.....is in trouble now?
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