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Re: Forester experience [Re: mike mason] #7451957
01/06/22 12:02 AM
01/06/22 12:02 AM
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Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Originally Posted by mike mason
Originally Posted by Dirty D
educate yourself on "high Grading" before any logging by mill Foresters or any Forester for that matter.
But if all you care about is the money then never mind.

Dirty D is correct, never use a mill's forester, too much of a conflict of interest. NEVER sell timber without a forester, try to find one that works by the hour for marking/scaling and then inspection during harvest and close out for the bond. Yes, require a bond so all the work is completed to the forester and your satisfaction.

25 years ago I developed a trusting relationship with a forester/log buyer employed by a large west coast timber buyer. Probably not a company any of you have heard of though.
I generally know what the log markets are now. When I offer this company a timber sale, I take what they offer because I know I won't do better elsewhere. On the other hand if they know there is a better market somewhere else for the type of timber I am offering, they will tell me. It is great if you can develope a relationship like this. However, I warn you, never double cross them or try to go behind their back and shop their price around. Everyone in the industry knows each other. Your name will be ruined.

Last edited by waggler; 01/06/22 12:06 AM.

"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7451979
01/06/22 12:40 AM
01/06/22 12:40 AM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Why would looking at competitors to get the best price for your resource ruin your name.
Thats called doing buisness.
When I sell my castoreum I dont always sell it to the same people.I sell it where I get the best price.

Same goes for a buyer.When I sell fur to clients I wont consider their name ruined if they decide to get product from someone else who may offer it cheaper from time to time.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452006
01/06/22 01:55 AM
01/06/22 01:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,467
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by waggler

25 years ago I developed a trusting relationship with a forester/log buyer employed by a large west coast timber buyer. Probably not a company any of you have heard of though.
I generally know what the log markets are now. When I offer this company a timber sale, I take what they offer because I know I won't do better elsewhere. On the other hand if they know there is a better market somewhere else for the type of timber I am offering, they will tell me. It is great if you can develope a relationship like this. However, I warn you, never double cross them or try to go behind their back and shop their price around. Everyone in the industry knows each other. Your name will be ruined.


Yup, the guy that cut ours for years back when was a single truck cutter grew big enough to wrap up almost all the dealerships for Alabama River. Well he got to big for his britches and when Alabama River called looking for their timber to find it sitting on his lot waiting for a better price they went around him and put him out of business. Cost the guy his marriage as well. The feds came sniffing around on some political stuff. Surprised he didn't eat his gun over it.
But he survived, learned some humility and started over. He does much better work now.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452016
01/06/22 02:30 AM
01/06/22 02:30 AM
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east central WI
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As mentioned by others
the first thing you should do is think of what you want from your land.

If you use the place for deer hunting as an example then you should possibly also get advise from a wildlife biologist and see what he would advise cutting to maximize deer habitat.
Once that's done you should be able to see some overlap on what is best for both scenarios.

I say this cause I have seen many woods logged with a so called "selective cut". Sometimes they will remove just the most valuable stuff leaving everything else "high grading".
What should happen is less desirable species, trees of poor form and trees that are hindering growth of desirable high value trees should be removed too. Usually these trees are of little value so most don't want to waste their time on it.
But to maximize your value long term it needs to be done.
Now the balancing act is if you want anything else out of your wood lot like wildlife habitat. In that case you might want to leave some larger poor quality trees that are serving as den trees for squirrels, coons or other stuff.
Leave the tops where they fall, good wildlife habitat.
Look into how much damage to remaining trees will happen. Damage can effect the future value of existing trees. I have seen some places that you can tell 20 years after it was logged where the logging roads were by the scars on the trunks of the trees.

this is the reason why you need to give serious thought on what you want out of the place.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452075
01/06/22 07:07 AM
01/06/22 07:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,317
Northern lower Michigan
Feedinggrounds Offline
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As a large timber buyer, mill operator with a on staff forester. We buy large federal cuts along with many smaller private cuts. 9 out of 10 times private landowners through friendly advice from others only see the few high quality trees they have, and total cut expectations are based on that. The terrain, access, distance to class A roads, distance to mills are all a factor. I have seen very high grade timber in a terrible location go cheap, as it should. I have seen large tracts of lower grade timber within site of great roads go for higher price. Get several bids on the timber. Then get re bids by buyers. Reason, things change. A buyer will up a bid often, when a crew is close or winding down a cut nearby. The landowners that get skinned are the ones hurting for cash and want the trees cut yesterday. I upstanding logger and support company will be months, or in our case a year ahead on contracts.


your only allowed so many sunrises... I aim to see every one of them!
Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452105
01/06/22 07:49 AM
01/06/22 07:49 AM
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SW PA
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diameter-limit cuts in eastern hardwoods are often (VERY often!) harmful to future timber quality.

they don't take into account residual tree quality (those left standing for the next cut), nor spacing.



Re: Forester experience [Re: white marlin] #7452134
01/06/22 08:20 AM
01/06/22 08:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,467
Georgia
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Georgia
Originally Posted by white marlin
diameter-limit cuts in eastern hardwoods are often (VERY often!) harmful to future timber quality.

they don't take into account residual tree quality (those left standing for the next cut), nor spacing.


Yup, we've gone to marking trees. More work up front better results down the road.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452177
01/06/22 09:14 AM
01/06/22 09:14 AM
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McCurtain Co. Oklahoma
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Lots of good advice here. Whatever you do, donít let a logger talk you out of hiring a forester to save you money. A lot of loggers will try to do that. Typically a reputable forester can get you a premium for your timber that will be more than enough to pay his/her commission. They will also know which loggers in the area are trustworthy and will do you a good job. The mill foresters are a crap shoot, Iíve worked with some really good ones who helped the land owner and Iíve worked with some who were only thinking about the next tract of timber they were wanting to buy.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452180
01/06/22 09:18 AM
01/06/22 09:18 AM
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Posts: 1,850
Wisconsin
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I started by generating a Forest Management Plan through the USDA/NRCS, they often pay for or cost share with the owner, you can reference CAP-Forest Management Plan 106. This is an inventory of your timber stands created by a technical service provider that is typically an independent forester. I preferred this approach, in lieu of working with DNR programs, with the NRCS- itís your stewardship plan and you employ whatever methods you decide and when. The plan is developed around your goals, for us it was solely wildlife enhancement, followed by economic returns. This is the time to create buck bedding areas, funnels between food plots, ag fields, handle invasives, replant beneficial trees and browse, etc.
The plan is comprehensive and looks at your property in its entirety, I wanted to make sure we had different age classes of timber. Not all loggers are foresters and not all foresters are loggers. A good forester will mark trees and work with the logger to manage the forest environment for all its potential and resources.
Itís hard to wrap your head around the first clear-cut, by nature, a clear-cut represents devastation and destruction to the current timber stand for regeneration of young forest growth. Our Aspen clear-cuts look like a tornado went through our timber stands but they regenerate quickly and offer the highest nutritional browse available.
In my opinion, whatís left in the woods is more important than whatís on the logging truck. My approach was to utilize:
1) Technical Service Provider to generate Forest Management Plan
2) Forester to review the plan, mark trees and be the liaison to the logger
3) Logger- selected someone that was local, had good references, understands infrastructure of road integrity, landing areas etc.

Re: Forester experience [Re: Feedinggrounds] #7452192
01/06/22 09:29 AM
01/06/22 09:29 AM
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Posts: 16,467
Georgia
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Originally Posted by Feedinggrounds
As a large timber buyer, mill operator with a on staff forester. We buy large federal cuts along with many smaller private cuts. 9 out of 10 times private landowners through friendly advice from others only see the few high quality trees they have, and total cut expectations are based on that. The terrain, access, distance to class A roads, distance to mills are all a factor. I have seen very high grade timber in a terrible location go cheap, as it should. I have seen large tracts of lower grade timber within site of great roads go for higher price. Get several bids on the timber. Then get re bids by buyers. Reason, things change. A buyer will up a bid often, when a crew is close or winding down a cut nearby. The landowners that get skinned are the ones hurting for cash and want the trees cut yesterday. I upstanding logger and support company will be months, or in our case a year ahead on contracts.


You bring up good points. One of the issues we struggle with is tract size. Things have gone go big or go home these days. It costs cutters big money to haul the feller bunchers and skidded half way across the county and get set up for a cut. If you ain't got enough timber/land to keep them busy and not hauling equipment don't expect them to jump on it.
Ours is only 270 and we manage for a mixed inventory stand preferring smaller cuts every few years as opposed to the all at once big cut short rotation. But our hole card is high ground on the main high ridge of a county bordered by two major rivers that flood every spring putting large parts of the county inaccessible to logging for a month or more. It also has hard top county road frontage down one side, good solid internal road network tailored over the years to get trucks in or out and centrally located between three mills, within 20 miles.

Re: Forester experience [Re: white marlin] #7452256
01/06/22 10:54 AM
01/06/22 10:54 AM
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PA
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Originally Posted by white marlin
diameter-limit cuts in eastern hardwoods are often (VERY often!) harmful to future timber quality.

they don't take into account residual tree quality (those left standing for the next cut), nor spacing.

Wouldnt that trees offspring be in the ground or a sapling nearby?

Re: Forester experience [Re: lumberjack391] #7452277
01/06/22 11:14 AM
01/06/22 11:14 AM
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Georgia
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Originally Posted by lumberjack391
Originally Posted by white marlin
diameter-limit cuts in eastern hardwoods are often (VERY often!) harmful to future timber quality.

they don't take into account residual tree quality (those left standing for the next cut), nor spacing.

Wouldnt that trees offspring be in the ground or a sapling nearby?


Possible. But what he's referring to is a thinning cut sometimes called a shelter wood cut where you are taking our half or less of a stand leaving half or more of the canopy remaining. Ideally to be removed at a future harvest in a similar manner.

If you take out the best on the initial your left with culls that will never maximize your return. You've got to balance out cuts by always removing stuff, crooked/knotty/broken/hollow/etc, that will never make saleable timber on every cut then selecting based on spacing not necessarily quality. It's a balancing act of maximizing return on this cut vs the next cut. You most certainly can pocket all the money now but your grandkids may hate you for it years down the road.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452391
01/06/22 01:13 PM
01/06/22 01:13 PM
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PA
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"If you take out the best on the initial your left with culls that will never maximize your return" - He was referring to a diameter limit (not best) and I can tell you I did a salvage job on 16" and up and what was left will be premiere wood in the future. What I took was all rubbed from prior skidding, some rot, short for some reason, with a lot of busted out tops.

Re: Forester experience [Re: OKforester] #7452399
01/06/22 01:18 PM
01/06/22 01:18 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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Originally Posted by OKforester
Lots of good advice here. Whatever you do, donít let a logger talk you out of hiring a forester to save you money. A lot of loggers will try to do that. Typically a reputable forester can get you a premium for your timber that will be more than enough to pay his/her commission. They will also know which loggers in the area are trustworthy and will do you a good job. The mill foresters are a crap shoot, Iíve worked with some really good ones who helped the land owner and Iíve worked with some who were only thinking about the next tract of timber they were wanting to buy.

Great advice.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Forester experience [Re: lumberjack391] #7452409
01/06/22 01:23 PM
01/06/22 01:23 PM
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Georgia
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Originally Posted by lumberjack391

"If you take out the best on the initial your left with culls that will never maximize your return" - He was referring to a diameter limit (not best) and I can tell you I did a salvage job on 16" and up and what was left will be premiere wood in the future. What I took was all rubbed from prior skidding, some rot, short for some reason, with a lot of busted out tops.


Diameter without other criteria for your cutter/buyer will end up high graded. Diameter is just the starting point.

Re: Forester experience [Re: Boco] #7452429
01/06/22 01:35 PM
01/06/22 01:35 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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Originally Posted by Boco
Why would looking at competitors to get the best price for your resource ruin your name.
Thats called doing buisness.
When I sell my castoreum I dont always sell it to the same people.I sell it where I get the best price.

Same goes for a buyer.When I sell fur to clients I wont consider their name ruined if they decide to get product from someone else who may offer it cheaper from time to time.


I reference to my earlier post about establishing a long tern relationship with a log buyer:

Just like many industries, there may be several players at the bottom, but the ultimate market is limited to just a few big players, and they all are pretty much working with the same financial figures. Castor for example; the end market for 99% of castor is most likely controlled by just a few players who are all paying about the same price.

Once you establish a good relationship with one of the big players in any commodity there is no reason to keep shopping around for a better price. The worst thing you can do is get a price from one potential buyer, then call another buyer and say "company X offered me X for my coon/castor/logs, what will you give me"? Of course it's easy for them to offer a nickel more, but that isn't fair to the first offer, and that nickel more that you receive will usually be lost somewhere else in the transaction anyway.

Once you establish a trusting relationship, it makes it easier for the outfit you are working with to deal with you, they know they aren't wasting their time working up quotes for you only to have you shop them around. It just makes things flow better and more economically for all parties involved. The generally results in better financial returns in the end.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452445
01/06/22 01:48 PM
01/06/22 01:48 PM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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That hasnt been my experience.
I always shop my castor around for the best price and have done well.
If someone gets butthurt over it-tough bannannas.Like I said-its just good buisness to get a better price.
it is no different than contracting out work,except there are more variables and more homework-but in the end you pick the one you want that will do the best job for the best price.
it is just good buisness.
There is plenty of people who own land here who sell wood fibre to contractors,and there are several contractors who compete for that fibre.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Forester experience [Re: waggler] #7452472
01/06/22 02:12 PM
01/06/22 02:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,467
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by waggler
Originally Posted by Boco
Why would looking at competitors to get the best price for your resource ruin your name.
Thats called doing buisness.
When I sell my castoreum I dont always sell it to the same people.I sell it where I get the best price.

Same goes for a buyer.When I sell fur to clients I wont consider their name ruined if they decide to get product from someone else who may offer it cheaper from time to time.


I reference to my earlier post about establishing a long tern relationship with a log buyer:

Just like many industries, there may be several players at the bottom, but the ultimate market is limited to just a few big players, and they all are pretty much working with the same financial figures. Castor for example; the end market for 99% of castor is most likely controlled by just a few players who are all paying about the same price.

Once you establish a good relationship with one of the big players in any commodity there is no reason to keep shopping around for a better price. The worst thing you can do is get a price from one potential buyer, then call another buyer and say "company X offered me X for my coon/castor/logs, what will you give me"? Of course it's easy for them to offer a nickel more, but that isn't fair to the first offer, and that nickel more that you receive will usually be lost somewhere else in the transaction anyway.

Once you establish a trusting relationship, it makes it easier for the outfit you are working with to deal with you, they know they aren't wasting their time working up quotes for you only to have you shop them around. It just makes things flow better and more economically for all parties involved. The generally results in better financial returns in the end.



I'll second this as a business person myself.

If you're just wanting comparison quotes be up front with it. Don't play games or blow smoke. State clearly what you're wanting and you'll get a respectful response. Jerk a guy around and you'll get a similar response.

Remember there's more of us out here doing this daily and will be for years to come and contrary to popular perception most of us talk to each other.

And the above advice was given in light of a friendly established relationship. Treat the guy like a friend, if there's a problem ask first before breaking the relationship.

There very well may be times you can find a better deal or your friend is just plain wrong. Do what you have to do but by all means do your best not to earn a bad rep.

In the timber biz it ain't like you can pack up your trees and sell them somewhere else, they won't fit in a flat rate box. Nor are there mills on every street corner or new ones popping up every year.

I guess it all goes to what folks are trying to say on this thread. Knowledge and knowing your stuff is the best way to get the best deal all the way around.

Barring that hire the guy that does know his stuff.

Re: Forester experience [Re: warrior] #7452501
01/06/22 02:53 PM
01/06/22 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by warrior
Originally Posted by lumberjack391

"If you take out the best on the initial your left with culls that will never maximize your return" - He was referring to a diameter limit (not best) and I can tell you I did a salvage job on 16" and up and what was left will be premiere wood in the future. What I took was all rubbed from prior skidding, some rot, short for some reason, with a lot of busted out tops.


Diameter without other criteria for your cutter/buyer will end up high graded. Diameter is just the starting point.

Diameter was the only criteria, the good the bad and the ugly.

Re: Forester experience [Re: pacoonhunter1] #7452547
01/06/22 03:44 PM
01/06/22 03:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
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Georgia
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We learned the hard way on that. Once told a cutter to take the stuff above xx" but to leave us XX per acre on a ten acre patch of regrowth water oak.

Nothing above xx was left and the XX left standing was the scrub in the corners all bunched up.

Needless to say he ain't been back and trees are now marked.

We ended having to clean that mess up ourselves poison the stump and went back with longleaf.

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