Our church just ignored the mask mandates and we got along just fine. We're an independent church and don't get any direction or money from any organization. That's a recipe for disaster.

Our church had huge growth during COVID.

Interesting thread.

Jude 1
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

So, we are instructed to "contend for the faith". To "contend" is to fight or struggle against something. But Christians are supposed to be nice and not ruffle any feathers so we sit quietly while other Christians teach or do things contrary to the Bible. But that's not what the Bible says to do. We are to fight against those things. Fight hard!

v. 4: "Certain people - who's condemnation was written about long ago"...that's people who are condemned for rejecting God and his word. Those ungodly people have "slipped in among you" - slipped into the church. Those people pervert God's word and are trying to derail and divide the church.

It's our duty to know the bible so that we can tell the difference between the good teaching and the bad teaching and we are to "contend with" those who are doing the bad teaching.

But we're not. We're letting all ideas be good ideas. And the church is falling apart - because we aren't doing our job.

The church I go to grew and purchased a new facility during covid.
The outreach to the community is real there.
Loving people will keep a church alive.
When it's all about how we've always done things and it becomes inward focused, death is inevitable.

The Un biblical is a war being raged Unseen to us.
And manifests differently in each congregation, and just about every denomination.

I never saw it until I went off to Bible college 1984. The College church was louder than the AG I came from

But the issues you're all talking about started changing Pentecostal congratulations for 40 years now.

No more he'll fire n brimstone preaching, no songs from the old hymnas-just wordy songs up on a screen that are popular on "Christian radio" compromise and " worship Teams" Took over from the Pastors.

It's been a slow fade.

Ryan,
You are tracking with the orthodoxy of our faith. 100%

No church in our land, short of the hegemony and hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, is solely led by an Overseer.
The Western Church's are primarily congregational (member) or presbyter (elder) led and the members and elders have to decide;

Whether they are:
Orthodox (right thinking - that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all)
Heterodox (add, but do not subtract from the core doctrines of the faith) = Roman Catholic with it's 5 extra sacraments as an example.

Or Heretical (subtract from core doctrines or establish new ones) = LDS, JW as examples.

The One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), Apostolic Church established in Acts 9 amidst the Apostles still exists as does the canonical Bible as does the Glory of Heavens and Earth.
What we humans decide has always been the tension.

The Church is ever expanding as wolves try to pick off sheep because satan and his legions "are many" and they oppose God and His children.

This seminarian is involved in many a chat with those who are revitalizing churches in many areas and the struggle is real, but worthy.

God's got this y'all.
There are folks in Corinthians and folks in Galatia, and people in Thessalinica, Philippi, Colossae, Ephesus, and Rome and Pharisees still today in our land.
Church is where the sick come to be healed (that'd be all of us y'all).
It should be imperfect.
But we must keep the orthodoxy and orthopraxy (right action).

Blessings,
Mark

Re: Lots of churches having internal conflicts.

The conflicts you speak of have gone on since the being of time.
Look at any number of small towns. Why do you suppose there are several churches of the same denomination in almost any small area of the country?

Churches are operated by men. There you go. The answer.

Mac

Yessir Mac. Good post.

I just got done being involved in a cohort with other denominations; Lutheran (not Missouri Synod), Episcopal, Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist, and Presbyterian and me (non-denomination training but EFree licensed). It was a lively group let me tell ya. One lady from the High Church faith cursed like a sailor and said that mirrors her church so she is just being what they are. One guy really didn't want to be in the same room with any of us. And the rest of us just trying to survive the never ending thin arguments of human reasoning in a group of believers. All were younger than me by 25-30 years, so I was more a fly on the wall. It isn't necessary to fight each other, I figure, cause the real world stuff drains me enough. I figure God called all these folks so I'll just sip coffee and no need to defend God cause He doesn't need me... at all.

My comment all the time was consistent. I'm Augustinian in my theology, who got his from Polycarp, who got his from the Apostle John in large measure.
I believe humans are not able to make worthy choices before rebirth because the list they choose from prior to that is totally corrupted.
After rebirth, no perfection, but at least the list is reborn.

And as far as denominations and all, again I'm from the Augustine of Hippo camp, in that all believers in Heaven and on earth are the Universal Church of our Lord.
The rest, whether to dunk or dip, infant or believer's baptism, male or female ecclesiology, and all of it should be decided through a reverence for Scripture #1, historical foundations of the faith #2, and cultural aspects #3 in that order.

Blessings,
Mark

I'd love to hear one of her semons; probably be about butterflies and pink unicorns.
So why is your sister -or anyone else for that matter- still going to that church?

As a member of a Praise team performing those wordy songs I must point out that those “old hymns” were new hymns at one time.

I’m not crazy about the ones that seem to be a chant but facing the congregation, I have seen the new material bring out emotion in both the young and old alike.

On the religious radio program I heard on my way to work they had on a guy that went to prison for dealing and came to christ got his Doctorate wright's books and preaches.Good story But the guy was gay books about being single, they didn't get into his stance on if he thought being guy was ok but did refer to same sex attraction and he would like to be married one day. Wish I knew if that desire wast for him to be married to a man or a woman that was not clear but I think it's a man.

Can't even listen to Christian radio any more.


The pastor that was told to quit his out reach center shot archery program or quit his job is quiting. That church is more concerned it did not bring in any new members rather than supporting a children's ministry. It sad but that church will end up closed in 15 years. They are all over 50 with no young families. We went to the program to support it and so they had enough kids to make a team my boys had fun. We didn't go to church there because making the 45 min drive more times a week was to much and we like our church. It's sad but they won't wake up. They don't see the kids getting the messages as beneficial to them. I guess thar sad group will enjoy the slow death of their church. It was not a financial issue the church is well funded and cost is very low. Kiss pay their own entry fees and most have their own equipment. That church is lost.

Lots of people like sausage, but few want to see it made.

Couldn't agree more WD. The more I know about the inner workings of the church the less I want to know.

Got a situation now where I bring up scripture that is clear in what to do. I get well, umm, let me think on that, not sure about that.

Aggravates the crap out of me.

And for what it's worth, the preacher needs his toes stepped on every now and again. I know I have called mine out a few times in love. He and I are great friends and his boy and mine are buddies. The congregation also has a responsibility to keep their preacher in line. Preachers are...........human..........after all.

We have a mix of both changes by the week. Sure I like the classics, but many of the new songs are much more appealing to me. Lauren Dangle first really gets to me for example.

Before I bring my need
I will bring my heart
Before I lift my cares
I will lift my arms
I wanna know You
I wanna find You
In every season
In every moment
Before I bring my need
I will bring my heart
And seek You
First
I wanna seek You, I wanna seek You
First
I wanna keep You, I wanna keep You
First
More than anything I want, I want You
First
Before I speak a word
Let me hear Your voice
And in the midst of pain
Let me feel Your joy, ooh
I wanna know You
I wanna find You
In every season
In every moment
Before I speak a word
I will bring my heart
And seek You
First
I wanna seek You, I wanna seek You
First
I wanna keep You, I wanna keep You
First
More than anything I want, I want You
First
You are my treasure and my reward
Let nothing ever come before
You are my treasure and my reward
Let nothing ever come before
I seek You
First
(I wanna seek You)
First
I wanna seek You, I wanna seek You
First
I wanna keep You, I wanna keep You
First
More than anything I want, I want You
First
First

Sounds like what God wants to me. Us to seek to know him with our whole heart. Maybe it's just me or where I'm a t on my journey but would it not be great for everyone for feel this way. It's better with music and her great voice maybe some one will post a link to her singing it.

It will go further either those 40 and younger than amazing grace and get them more interested in going to church. That's a win.

People hear this and think or say, "things were different back then and things have changed", as if basic Biblical theology adjusts to suit man at any given time.

This shows the evil in man and the presence of Satan.

Diluting GOD's word only demonstrates diluting of one's faith.

No people try to change Gods rules which causes conflict.

In regards to the music, I ask you to consider this.

Gregorian chant was the latest craze at one time.

Then came wordy songs that had musical accompaniment that were blasphemous to gregorian chant. These are now called old hymns.

Then came a guitar, a bass, and heaven forbid, DRUMS!! Blasphemous contemporary music.

Humbly, I ask you to read the words to some of those songs. Then listen to the song.

I like the Gaithers as much as anyone. They are truly talented. I also like Toby Mac.

You know the Gaithers had a wee bit of a problem at one time, didn't they? Just saying.

From a historical theological perspective on Ecclesiology (discussion of the Church) there are three Marks and Works of the ancient church (1st century) until today that have not wained in all that time. Wavered by many, but never lost. All are based in multiple Scripture texts.
As it should always be.

The challenge for our churches is to keep these Marks and Works in orthopraxy (right acton) with a full Christology - Christ is Lord and these are Jesus' Churches.
His Ordination of the Church in Acts 2, via the Spirit, is JOB #1.

Great causes, too often, replace the Marks and Works of the Church and in this comes decay, bickering, and worse.

3 Marks
Order - church leadership is to be overseers, presbyters, and deacons
Ordination - laying of the hands on those appointed to lead the church
Ordinances - sacraments of baptism and Lord's Supper

3 Works
Exaltation - Praise of Father, Son, and Spirit
Edification - Building up and disciplining of the body
Evangelism - Spread the Good News

Every elder should sift a church's event, purpose, or creative plan through these ecclesiology tenets and see how it lands.
Out of bounds has very dire circumstance for pastors who intentionally lead a church astray... as in, Scripture reads, "Let them be accursed."
That is the word anathema in Greek and it means a literal cast to _ ell.

Should make for a very sober elder meeting.

Blessings y'all!
Mark

The guy going to prison and getting his life back in order sounds like a good success story. I wish they could all do that.

X2

If I ever found the perfect curch, I would not join them. It would no longer be perfect.