Here's the PNAS article about the lizards for anyone who wants to get nerdy about it:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2216789120

Hopefully y'all will have access. Sometimes the journals work on subscriptions. Fascinating story! Worth the read if you're interested in such things.

I really don't have any desire to join a creation/evolution debate. I have spent time there and found the exercise to be fruitless. The issue has become a stumbling block for many Christians and many seekers. Christians lose the plotline of story because they are afraid of the concept of evolution, that it may somehow disprove or debunk the story of Jesus. Seekers never get to see the plotline because it's pretty difficult to reconcile the ancient Israelite concept of reality with our modern concepts, so the whole story is tossed out as being ridiculous because it doesn't match reality. The whole thing is an unnecessary distraction IF what we are seeking is an understanding of the Bible's message to us about God's plan for the world and how Jesus is fulfilling that plan. If however, the debate is merely about the physical origin of the universe and the life it contains, then debate away, but I don't really think the Bible seeks to address those issues at all. Again, I'm not that interested in the debate. I enjoy Bible-talk, but Bible-talk doesn't answer the question(s) presented.

So, for what it's worth Danny, I am a devout Christian that believes in the truth of the Bible. The article is a great example of evolution as it happens in real life. Almost all available evidence suggests that the earth is much, much older than 6000 years. Humans did not descend from apes, they ARE apes. I have no trouble holding all of these views simultaneously, all of them based on my experience with and knowledge of reality. If science doesn't match reality, then it's junk. If religion doesn't match reality, it's also junk. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I agree.

I've attended the American academia in science and in theology and boy-howdy how they were different in their style of teaching, let alone what they taught. Late 70-early 80's when I did my grad studies in biology, we were hard charging in evolutionary theory and the overall theme was laser focused. Darwin was true, there was no doubt, and so all thesis work we did (my thesis study was on an invertebrate species) was to line up with evolutionary theory. No ifs. No ands. No buts. I had a meeting one time with the head of the department because myself and two colleagues, working and studying as we did for three years were at a log jam. We could not "find" a species we needed to find to link A to B. But to proceed from A to B, species X MUST exist! I was told by the head guy, if it wasn't found yet in our field of study, then certainly it existed somewhere not yet found. Maybe? That had been our three year quest as a team. But "certainly"? What? But since I was a student and Doc was the chair of studies.... and since I wanted to graduate..... we gave the department what they insisted on. Foggy science. Biased science. Not scientific at all!

When I witness the fervor over climate change, and the lack of open dialog regarding it, we get a glimpse of Darwin's evolutionary premise in modern terms. IMO, people wanted a reason to not have a God and they found it lock, stock, and barrel in Darwinism. Are Darwin's theories true? Some aspects sure, but the deeper foundations are suspect and today there can be no "scientific" pursuit of answers because it's gospel for those who wanted it to be so. Climate change is going to be that same way in 100 years. They'll be no more debate and scientists who dare ask will be discredited and debunked.

I'm a scientist and it grieves me to see how scientists act in pursuit of accolades, cash, and glamour.
That's not science at all. It's called greed, coveting, bias and prejudice.
I've seen it in action in academia and I have reason to believe it's much worse in 2023 than it was in 1982.

And the earth isn't very old is my view. How old? I don't really know and since most people don't care about much before their lifetime anyway.... why even bother to disagree vehemently about it. Just relish the fact we can differ and aren't all one and the same. That'd be boring as catching nothing on the trapline day after day after day.

Blessings,
Mark

Well said Mark I think it has something to do with scales on the eyes as it says in the word. They cannot see so they have to create something to believe in.

Lots I dont know about climate change but we have only had a few days of cold weather this year. Its mid January and its supposed to rain tomorrow. I dont jump on the air pollution wagon because those same scientists tell us the earth has been both warmer and colder than it is presently.

The only arguments I hear to dispute evolution are faith based. Evolution is still theory. not fact. Yet the arguments for are faith based also. To many people cant stand not knowing so they just make up stuff.

I think its interesting that there is some genetic difference in those urban lizards compared to the jungle lizards. It sure looks like a change that improves survivability.

Are white tail deer harder to get a shot at in heavily hunted areas because they learn to be more careful or because the "dumb" one's dont breed ?

What about coyotes in urban areas grabbing cats off the front porch? Are they starved into it or do the less spooky breed and the "normal" coyotes go hungry much of the time?

You sure dont see many coyotes in these small rural KS towns. Yet KS has been called a coyote factory for a long time. What we have in a LOT of these small towns are red fox.

When I lived in KS if a coyote was seen in town it was either shot ,shot at , and or the Gray hound boys were called in . Red fox seemed to be showing up more at that time and several times when I asked permission to trap I was asked to leave the Reds alone. Or just flat out turned down because of the fox. I Gues after I left around 93 there were some bad mange years. I returned in 2017 to do some building repairs and check on things at our family's homestead. A shot drive and a litte scouting I could see there was a Healthy coyote population and I started to reminisce and think about going back to trapp coyotes till I saw opossum tracks .

The moral of the story is I guess I've evolved to a wyoming trapper .

WY is one of my favorite places. Wild country with few people and most of the people that it has are friendly

So far, neither argument, creation or evolution can be argued without a leap of faith. Maybe there is more to the story and we just have not figured it out. Yet.

Even if you believe in evolution it only takes you back so far. Where did the first atom or cell come from?

Maybe God had a sense of humor and took a hand full of cells and threw them on a round rock, added water and sat back and watched.

More like 7000

the bible says god is Alpha and Omega. I interpret that as no beginning and no end. MAYBE time isnt linear. Maybe its a circle.

So we don’t believe in carbon 14 dating either?

So we don’t believe in carbon 14 dating either?[/quote]

There have been live things which were dated by Carbon 14 to have been dead for thousands of year. It's very inexact at best and misleading.

Quite likely there is more to it than we understand

I don't feel obligated to convince anyone, but I think it's important for all of us to realize that no matter what we choose to believe, It's almost entirely on faith.

When you read about the millions of years in your school textbooks, you choose whether you will put your faith in that textbook and the agenda of the person who wrote it. When you read the Bible that says "In the beginning..." you can choose to put your faith in that, or the person who wrote it. You can read Origin of Species and agree or disagree with Darwin, but you should probably know his background before accepting his slant on the things he observed. Either way, you have a choice to make, you can put your faith in it or reject it.

What passes for science today, is more like a religion than it is science. "Follow the science," people say about COVID, "the science is settled." They say about climate change. Everyone wants to use science as a weapon to force others into submission. That's what Darwinian evolution is all about. There are so many holes in evolutionary theory that scientists who subscribe to it must ignore the parts they don't like. Or that don't fit their agenda. Reminds me exactly of the Roman Catholic Church in the 1300s. Today's science is basically a religion.

We humans are so prone to believe what we WANT TO BE TRUE and discard those things that point in any other direction. No matter what you believe you are accepting it by faith, there is no way to get around it. Faith and science are not opposed to each other, they are the same thing unless something has been proven by the scientific method, which none of the origins of the Earth can be, no matter if it was 6,000 years ago or 6 billions years ago. IT CAN'T BE DONE. So those of you who reject creation are putting your faith in something, just as those who believe in the literal seven days of Genesis. If you don't think so, you are only deceiving yourself.

Like I said, I do not feel obligated to convince anyone and it's impossible to convince someone who has no interest in being objective anyway. And to top that off, I seriously doubt that anyone has given their life to Christ as the result of an argument. What drew people to Jesus was not his ability to convince people, it was his love. And it still is. For everyone who is reading this, I am not nearly as concerned about what you believe about the origins of the Earth as I am about the condition of your soul.

One should do some deeper research into carbon dating before they should use it as proof. Scientifically it some real faults. Some in the Scientific community don't really want that know because it a pillar in some of their theories but it is known among the community.

Good post BB. Thanks

Carbon dating isnt always accurate has never been disputed. Its not junk science though either.

It is when it's used to intentionally deceive. And it has. And I will deceed religion of every kind has been used by man fir the same purpose.