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Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812565
03/04/23 07:39 AM
03/04/23 07:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
I think a lot of those axes primary purpose was as a weapon. The effort to cut down even a tree as big as your leg would have been enormous. It was done but not often. In a fire the wood was just stuck in intact. When the end burnt off they would stick in some more. Bones could be broke open with a hand held rock. A good piece of stone hafted to a nice piece of wood would have been a terrifyingly effective weapon.

I dont think ice holes were made when the ice got thick. I think they were just kept open. Covered with boughs, when the ice got thick enough. Winter would often be a starving time. Wasting energy to cut a big hole in thick ice is not a good way to last till spring.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812629
03/04/23 08:40 AM
03/04/23 08:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
MNCedar Offline
trapper
MNCedar  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
DRF- thanks for the added pics. No pecking, no polish. The explanations on this thread further evidence that those stones are not artifacts. Keep looking! It’s a rush.

To others: Suspicion of use is not the same as evidence.

Many (if not most) smaller private collections consist of valid stone points with misclassified “nutting” and “grinding” stones. People often passionately defend these claims, but the fact remains that when compared to an actual metate, the lack of usefulness of these items becomes immediately apparent.

Situational context is extremely important. An omar or “geofact” in a field surrounded by thousands of flakes that has produced hundreds of points, can at times become a mildly interesting item. Yet even then, it is still just a rock due to the lack of tooling or wear marks. I find water-polished stones all the time that I know were carried to site by humans. But the lack of tooling leaves them classified as just rocks and left in place.

Stone axes were definitely primarily used to break apart already dead, already fallen timber. Mother Nature dropped the trees, humans chopped them up. They would’ve been extremely efficient tools for chopping at branch Y’s ( think of producing bundles of arm-sized sticks). Hafting would likely fail in an attempt to drop living, green lumber.


Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812638
03/04/23 08:54 AM
03/04/23 08:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66,668
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66,668
Minnesota
Cool find


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812662
03/04/23 09:24 AM
03/04/23 09:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
MNCedar, I have heard that before. Take a modern single jack hammer into the woods. Pick up a piece of wood that would be a good club. Use the single jack to bust off limbs at the trunk of downed timber and the club to whack off whats left of a limb l after you grab the end and just bust it. use the hammer the same way. I could be wrong but I have a hard time believing the time and effort to make an axe head was for gathering firewood.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812683
03/04/23 10:05 AM
03/04/23 10:05 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,022
ohio
T
tomahawker Offline
trapper
tomahawker  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,022
ohio
Good rule of thumb is, If your not sure, it probably isn’t.

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812687
03/04/23 10:12 AM
03/04/23 10:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,198
Near Gardiner MT
E
Elkguy Offline
trapper
Elkguy  Offline
trapper
E

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,198
Near Gardiner MT
I’m a Native American, born and bred right here in Montana.


CBCS
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812702
03/04/23 10:41 AM
03/04/23 10:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
MNCedar Offline
trapper
MNCedar  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
Danny, we could sure bust up some firewood pretty quickly with stone mauls. Axes and celts would be indispensable for further reduction though. Varying degrees of polish on axe bits show they saw repeated, almost steady use. The way I understand it, larger axes and mauls were left at their location of use instead of being carried daily. There are certainly no absolutes in that department.

Thinking and envisioning scenarios like that is my favorite part of history and artifacts!

I think war club/war culture overlapped with horse culture a lot more, but I’m not as versed in that area so I won’t comment much there.

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812944
03/04/23 05:33 PM
03/04/23 05:33 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 884
Illinois
D
DRF Offline OP
trapper
DRF  Offline OP
trapper
D

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 884
Illinois
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Went back out today and found this. Thought maybe what they call a chip or flake but not sure.

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812982
03/04/23 06:16 PM
03/04/23 06:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 7,215
Wabash, IN USA
Flipper 56 Offline
trapper
Flipper 56  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 7,215
Wabash, IN USA
I have found 3 big grind stones that would have been used year to year, to big to move. I found these the other day, I think they look like war club stones.
[Linked Image]


"Where Can A Man Find Bear Beaver And Other Critters Worth Cash Money When Skinned?"

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812989
03/04/23 06:27 PM
03/04/23 06:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
N
Northof50 Offline
trapper
Northof50  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
Originally Posted by DRF
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Went back out today and found this. Thought maybe what they call a chip or flake but not sure.

put that into Boco hands and wow could he really clean up those frost scraped beaver pelts with that thumb nail scraper

If you look at the edges you can see small flakes taken out- that tool has been used as a secondary knife for cutting meat or scraping a hide thinner

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7812990
03/04/23 06:29 PM
03/04/23 06:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
N
Northof50 Offline
trapper
Northof50  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
it is what we would call brown calcodony chert, but names have changed in the past 40 years

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: danny clifton] #7813040
03/04/23 07:22 PM
03/04/23 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
N
nate Offline
trapper
nate  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
Originally Posted by danny clifton
I think a lot of those axes primary purpose was as a weapon. The effort to cut down even a tree as big as your leg would have been enormous. It was done but not often. In a fire the wood was just stuck in intact. When the end burnt off they would stick in some more. Bones could be broke open with a hand held rock. A good piece of stone hafted to a nice piece of wood would have been a terrifyingly effective weapon.

I dont think ice holes were made when the ice got thick. I think they were just kept open. Covered with boughs, when the ice got thick enough. Winter would often be a starving time. Wasting energy to cut a big hole in thick ice is not a good way to last till spring.

Danny
They were used to crush bones (marrow) and qauter game also clear trees for garden and fire wood they would burn the base and chop at the base of trees to fell them, the main reason camps were vacated was they would run out of firewood.

Last edited by nate; 03/04/23 07:24 PM.
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813047
03/04/23 07:32 PM
03/04/23 07:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
N
nate Offline
trapper
nate  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
Very nice axe here that was in the process of being resharpened you can see the break the polish and the new pecking.

(34 downloads)
IMG_20230304_182804836~2.jpg
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813161
03/04/23 09:21 PM
03/04/23 09:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,005
Illinois
foxkidd44 Offline
trapper
foxkidd44  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,005
Illinois
I have a small collection. lol. To the original poster.. the stones you have are naturally occurring.

[Linked Image]


Stand by your principles, Stand by your guns, and victory complete and permanent is sure at last.
Abraham Lincoln
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813176
03/04/23 09:36 PM
03/04/23 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
Well Nate I did not get my theory from a book but rather trying out stuff outdoors. Without toilets I believe they moved because human waste , discarded animal parts, tougher hunting, all edible plants nearby gathered up, and yes, easily accessible firewood, made it necessary. I wasn't there so again I could easy be wrong.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813214
03/04/23 10:27 PM
03/04/23 10:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
N
Northof50 Offline
trapper
Northof50  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
Some of the fishing spots have feet deep of scales where they lived. So fire was not always necessary as sun dried was also possible. They also knew how to salt as they taught the metis how to collect salt for the hides

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813217
03/04/23 10:42 PM
03/04/23 10:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 31,229
williamsburg ks
Where those scales are feet deep were they there long term or was it an annual thing when the fishing was good ?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813224
03/04/23 11:01 PM
03/04/23 11:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
N
Northof50 Offline
trapper
Northof50  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,522
Manitoba
summer to winter then buffalo hunting and return in spring
first agriculture 300 Ad in Manitoba onward

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: DRF] #7813226
03/04/23 11:05 PM
03/04/23 11:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 246
OKLAHOMA
C
Cattrapper77 Offline
trapper
Cattrapper77  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 246
OKLAHOMA
Here is an interesting axe, if you look closely you can see lines etched both vertically and horizontally on both faces of the axe. [Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Re: Native American stone tools [Re: danny clifton] #7813244
03/05/23 12:04 AM
03/05/23 12:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
N
nate Offline
trapper
nate  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
mo.
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Well Nate I did not get my theory from a book but rather trying out stuff outdoors. Without toilets I believe they moved because human waste , discarded animal parts, tougher hunting, all edible plants nearby gathered up, and yes, easily accessible firewood, made it necessary. I wasn't there so again I could easy be wrong.

Who no's not I, but I do no a few days camping without a axe or saw I'm looking a lot harder for fire wood than I want to, I don't remember looking for a place to use the bathroom.

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