Found these not too far from each other today close to a River looking for arrowheads. Not sure if that’s what they are but they sure go good together. The flat spot on top is perfect for your thumb to hold on. Some other rock’s around but no smooth ones like these. Anyone know much about these?

Nice find. It's a mortar and pestle, which could be used to grind all sorts of things, including nuts, other seeds and herbs.

Keith

X2 thanks for the picture.

Thanks Keith, definitely going back tomorrow, ran out of daylight today.

Those are not native. They are omars.

Looks to me like there's pecking on both piece's.

That’s cool DRF! I’m no rock expert but this is my coolest Indian rock I have found and I’m just curious if anyone would know more about it. It’s about the size of a 8 pound splitting maul head and has grooves on 3 sides for the handle to be attached.

Ice pick tip probably.

It's a 3/4 grooved axe, preceded by the 4/4 grooved axes.

Tyler very nice it's a axe head with raised ridge's. Way nice!!

What really ponder me is that no body has given the pig-castrator story yet
oh ya the Spanish brought the pigs over

many times with soil conditions there is ochar sediment in the soil and that is ground for the red dye in small mortars like that

DRF you are on the right track, but I find it unlikely those items are artifacts. As mentioned, likely omars, or the slight bowl shape is the result of water performing a freeze/pop behavior. Looking up roller pestles and mano/metate pairings might be helpful examples of grinding instruments. Like somebody once told me, when you’re on a site, you’ll know it. Keep looking, it’s addicting!

Tyler D, that is a very nice axe for mn. Really nice! A lot of the tools here were definitely focused more on function over form. Your axe is a standout. I was told regarding a similar artifact to look up Iowa type axes and even slant axes, as a follow up to learn about the raised groove style and heavier polish. It might be interesting reading for you.

I have a twin to that axe head from Iowa plus a bunch of other great finds from the plowed fields in Tama county Ia.

It looks that way to me too. It looks like the pestle was pecked to reduce the diameter of the end to fit in the mortar. Even if the mortar started as an omar, which is very possible, it appears to have been worked on by a human being.

Omars and other useful shaped rocks were used to make tools, over non useful shaped rocks, because there is less work doing so.

Keith

.

What's an Omar, and pecking?

Omar is short for omarolluk, a rock that naturally develops a hole, when a softer concretion erodes and falls out. People frequently find them and think they are man made, because the holes left in them can be nearly perfect. Native Americans did pick up and use omars, because they were useful, but omars are common and most were never used. Omars that were used will show use including being polished inside from having another stone ground against them and sometimes wear from being used as a nutting stone, where a nut is placed in them and then hammered with another rock to crack it. A lot of omars have ocher residue in them from when red ocher was placed in them to grind for paint.

Pecking is a method of shaping rocks into tools by repeated, fairly soft blows, to make divots called pecks. On cruder tools, the peck marks are usually left. More worked tools will have the pecks ground and polished out. Pecking is an excellent way to remove material to shape a rock and a good way to make the surface weaker and easier to grind. Finger and thumb holes were often pecked into stone tools to make them easier to hold.

Stones that were used as tools will show pecking, flaking, grinding, polishing and or hard impact, damage that changes then from their natural form. Natural wear can sometimes mimic man made wear.

Keith

Here's an earlier thread I started on stone artifacts, that a lot of other people contributed to.

https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7556779/1

Keith

I think a lot of those axes primary purpose was as a weapon. The effort to cut down even a tree as big as your leg would have been enormous. It was done but not often. In a fire the wood was just stuck in intact. When the end burnt off they would stick in some more. Bones could be broke open with a hand held rock. A good piece of stone hafted to a nice piece of wood would have been a terrifyingly effective weapon.

I dont think ice holes were made when the ice got thick. I think they were just kept open. Covered with boughs, when the ice got thick enough. Winter would often be a starving time. Wasting energy to cut a big hole in thick ice is not a good way to last till spring.

DRF- thanks for the added pics. No pecking, no polish. The explanations on this thread further evidence that those stones are not artifacts. Keep looking! It’s a rush.

To others: Suspicion of use is not the same as evidence.

Many (if not most) smaller private collections consist of valid stone points with misclassified “nutting” and “grinding” stones. People often passionately defend these claims, but the fact remains that when compared to an actual metate, the lack of usefulness of these items becomes immediately apparent.

Situational context is extremely important. An omar or “geofact” in a field surrounded by thousands of flakes that has produced hundreds of points, can at times become a mildly interesting item. Yet even then, it is still just a rock due to the lack of tooling or wear marks. I find water-polished stones all the time that I know were carried to site by humans. But the lack of tooling leaves them classified as just rocks and left in place.

Stone axes were definitely primarily used to break apart already dead, already fallen timber. Mother Nature dropped the trees, humans chopped them up. They would’ve been extremely efficient tools for chopping at branch Y’s ( think of producing bundles of arm-sized sticks). Hafting would likely fail in an attempt to drop living, green lumber.

Cool find

MNCedar, I have heard that before. Take a modern single jack hammer into the woods. Pick up a piece of wood that would be a good club. Use the single jack to bust off limbs at the trunk of downed timber and the club to whack off whats left of a limb l after you grab the end and just bust it. use the hammer the same way. I could be wrong but I have a hard time believing the time and effort to make an axe head was for gathering firewood.

Good rule of thumb is, If your not sure, it probably isn’t.

I’m a Native American, born and bred right here in Montana.

Danny, we could sure bust up some firewood pretty quickly with stone mauls. Axes and celts would be indispensable for further reduction though. Varying degrees of polish on axe bits show they saw repeated, almost steady use. The way I understand it, larger axes and mauls were left at their location of use instead of being carried daily. There are certainly no absolutes in that department.

Thinking and envisioning scenarios like that is my favorite part of history and artifacts!

I think war club/war culture overlapped with horse culture a lot more, but I’m not as versed in that area so I won’t comment much there.

Went back out today and found this. Thought maybe what they call a chip or flake but not sure.

I have found 3 big grind stones that would have been used year to year, to big to move. I found these the other day, I think they look like war club stones.

put that into Boco hands and wow could he really clean up those frost scraped beaver pelts with that thumb nail scraper

If you look at the edges you can see small flakes taken out- that tool has been used as a secondary knife for cutting meat or scraping a hide thinner

it is what we would call brown calcodony chert, but names have changed in the past 40 years

Danny
They were used to crush bones (marrow) and qauter game also clear trees for garden and fire wood they would burn the base and chop at the base of trees to fell them, the main reason camps were vacated was they would run out of firewood.

Very nice axe here that was in the process of being resharpened you can see the break the polish and the new pecking.

I have a small collection. lol. To the original poster.. the stones you have are naturally occurring.

Well Nate I did not get my theory from a book but rather trying out stuff outdoors. Without toilets I believe they moved because human waste , discarded animal parts, tougher hunting, all edible plants nearby gathered up, and yes, easily accessible firewood, made it necessary. I wasn't there so again I could easy be wrong.

Some of the fishing spots have feet deep of scales where they lived. So fire was not always necessary as sun dried was also possible. They also knew how to salt as they taught the metis how to collect salt for the hides

Where those scales are feet deep were they there long term or was it an annual thing when the fishing was good ?

summer to winter then buffalo hunting and return in spring
first agriculture 300 Ad in Manitoba onward

Here is an interesting axe, if you look closely you can see lines etched both vertically and horizontally on both faces of the axe.

Who no's not I, but I do no a few days camping without a axe or saw I'm looking a lot harder for fire wood than I want to, I don't remember looking for a place to use the bathroom.

Here in Alaska keeping the waterhole and net holes ice free for seven months of the year was a full time job.
The beach here is littered with ice pick heads of all sizes. They were not worked for beauty but functionality.

Here is a small sample. Check out the one made out of a fossil is not a pick head, I believe its a fish opener.

Most of what I find is pretty crude too.



Keith

I like grooved axes best.





Simple celts are much more common than grooved axes, especially broken ones. I probably have 70 pieces of celts.






Keith

Thats a pretty awesome collection of axes.

Here are a few more oddities I have found.

Note the knapped glass and porcelain spear point. Thats the stone age meeting the 19 th century Not sure what the round coin things are but made out of stone.

I am sure it was. What was cordage for nets made from in the old days?

Nate, if you have a family of say 25 people living together , say a half dozen are little kids, a couple are old. They are not going to walk very far away to relieve their selves. The rest of the clan is going to have a bad day once in a while where they dont walk very far too. A drink of bad water, eat to many mulberries or whatever. So after while they would move. I always figured they would ring the bark from some trees to have firewood when they came back. Especially a nice place to spend winter months. close to meat animals, maybe lots of rose hips and acorns or whatever. A stand of dead trees would sure be a big plus.

Yukonjeff, I have found a couple of the round stones also. Not sure how they got that way, but they stood out so I picked them up.

I think a lot of times Native Americans just picked up natural, interesting looking stones and just kept them and maybe used them as game pieces. A lot of possible artifacts, made of stone that's not common in the area, are found with artifacts at known campsites. It's likely a human brought them there.



Keith

As someone that flint knaps (makes stone tools) that is most certainly a flake. That is not to say, it wasn't used as a tool. Often, I my flakes are used to cut things from leather to rope and even cardboard. The hertzian cone is clearly visible on the lighter end, that is where the knapper struck the stone to knock off the flake. The step fractures in the darker portion of the stone stopped/used up a lot of the energy of the strike.

Found this stone many years ago....believe it was part of a fire starting set. Recently gave it to the local museum.

It does look like the capstone for a fire drill. They were used to keep the spindle pushed down into the wood being drilled, with enough friction to produce an ember.

Here's one I have. It has holes worn into both sides and was shaped to fit very comfortably in your hand.






Keith

I am was told the long roots from Spruce trees and or woven grass. Most used fish traps, and spears and bows to fish as well.

Let me entertain you with this crazy idea. I believe I found a human mukluk print that was mud and turned to stone and popped out.

The only reason I think so is because I have seen alot of mukluk prints and made them myself. It was found in a area that had alot of stone tools as well.

What say the armchair archeologists?

I bet it took many hours to produce a net. I suspect too a lot of fish harvest was done in open water. I have seen videos of groups of people driving fish into rock corals in shallow water then blocking the entrance. I dont know if that technique was employed where you are but it was interesting and looked effective.

I have friends that make nets out of twine, they make all the mesh and everything. it is time consuming but plenty of time here when it storms thats when gear is repaired and made.

Found these today. These were all found in a low spot where this field drains to and ran outta time to look it over good

I have posted some that are at our museum before of the funnel traps

there are some foot-prints in a SW National park that the sand blew away and the silt went into the prints. There was evidence that these people were here hunting wooly mammoths and it moved the time table back another 10K years
you can even see lateral lines in the prints and there was a young child there as well

There was a special on PBS about that. Conditions have to be just right for fossils to form. Until there was a relatively large amount of people, to make fossils, the chances of somebody finding those fossils today would be infinitesimal. Homo sapiens are probably much older as a species than most people think.

Keith

it is actual time period of people in NA that these foot prints proved
conditions were a silty marsh and then flooded foot prints then covering
there has been extensive arch work done there and with the plant material C14 dated above and below the prints
sea floor rising has covered all the coast travel along Alaska/BC to find stuff
looks like a well water washed obsidian rock at 6pm in your photo

Fascinating thread ! To add a totally off topic twist .When I think of the people who made and used these tools I firmly believe their souls are somewhere in eternity and some are looking upon our thread now and are in joyful peace and happiness . Praise be to Jesus ! My hours of wandering the fields after a big rain in my childhood and finding some good points are now being remembered !

I looked up what hertzian cone was. That was interesting.

So what was this. Its definitely been knapped. I think it was held by the thick end and maybe used to dig with. ?

Todays find.

What's that at bottom right looks like a broke drill, the one top right looks like a flake tool of some sort. Keep looking you will find something nice. Do you mind posting a few more pic's of that 1 bottom right

Definitely a drill, nice find would have been sweet if it was intact.

Found a stake driver/maul. Size of a soft ball.

Todays find. Maybe apprentice work lol.

Nice finds!!

Where did you find that maul at? A field?

It is neat to think these finds probably haven’t been touched by anyone since the person who lost or left it.

That is cool, great find!

Some grooved hammers/mauls I have.





Keith

On the prairie where there was a camp I'm guessing. I would say they stayed there often through the years as they moved from season to season. I have a friend that was about a dozen of them. He found them in fields and places I'm sure they had set up camps in their travelling's. They choice great spots to set up home for months at a time. Hunting fishing and scouting and natural protected areas from weather were picked very carefully.

Nice finds!!!

You guys that have experience, does this rock look like it’s been worked?

Seems to be worked but not the best pic.

Found these today. Didn’t get to look much as the snow was starting to cover everything up.

One of the best moments ever!!! Granddaughter found her first arrowhead last year and it was a dandy

That is a good one!!! She is a lucky lady!!

That’s awesome foxkidd!

You guys have some great finds there.

Found these looking around the last couple days.

A better one today.

It appears you have some great places to hunt, DRF!

That last grooved stone, may be a net sinker/weight used in fishing. A relative has many of those in their collection, that resulted from her befriending a tribe. I’ll try to remember to post some.

Cool that's interesting.

Here’s a few I picked up at work





Have a can in my locker with stuff I find at work

I bought some lance points at a flea market today and met Stinky Pete.



Does anyone else have anything new to show?

Keith

Great meeting you Keith today. Thanks for taking the time to stop bye.

Found these last year. Most of them from the same location

You're welcome Wayne. It was nice meeting you too.

I'll be selling there in the future.

Keith

I sure wish those stone tools could talk.

Saskbone some of those look like large pennies prior to 1920. Was that a WW1 military range

Where was this flea market please?

Saskbone what is your job, that you find all that stuff, if you don't mind me asking.?

Found this a few years ago while trapping a plowed field. Not sure what it is. Maybe just natural occuring? Any ideas?

Has anyone found a Clovis point?

Picked this up one day while looking a 100 yards or so from a good location. At first just stuck it in my bag then when home I looked closer and realized I had something. The edge they worked is very smooth. White stone is a broken drill.

Yes...one double fluted.

Found it in 2 pieces, unfortunately, but the break is clean. Can put it together and not see the break.

I have several late Paleo projectiles, but only that one true Clovis (documented by a University of Georgia archeologist) and listed in their records as a Clovis find from this area.

it is called a kettle rock
fast flowing rivers go over falls and create a eddy and this hard igneous rocks turn in softer rock formation, when you find one of these formations they are kettle shape and sometimes 6 feet deep with the smooth rounded rocks in the bottom and sand all around

Swamp that’s pretty cool. Thanks

Interesting info. The closest river to me is miles away. Is this an indication that there would have been a river here thousands of years ago? Or maybe brought here frome glacier movement?

Here is another from a friend of mine. Not sure where he found it. Very curious as to what this might be.

This is another one that he found.

It was at the Champaign County, Ohio Fairgrounds. It's run by kids in 4H on the first weekend of the month, except in August because of the County Fair.

There's more artifacts at Caesers Creek Flea Market, the Springfield Antique Mall and Treasure Aisles Flea Market.

Keith

Goldnut ,the gov trapper friend of mine found one like that and he says it is used to straighten and polish arrows ,his was a very black stone .

Goldnut glaciers covered at least half or more of western pa at one time or another.

Clovis gets mentioned maybe because more people have heard the name. But there were no doubt people here for thousands of years before Clovis technology appeared. At this point seems likely people were here five thousand years prior.

Found 3/4 of a Clovis point in NE Iowa - the point was broken off but the fluting was well preserved. Contacted the State of Iowa Archaeology Dept as well as the The Hawkeye State Archaeological Society and both said that the finding of such an early point is rare in Iowa due to the date of the most recent glacier occurrence. I placed it in the local museum with the other artifacts I have there.

goldnut ;One has to remember things happened well before the glacial period, inland seas etc
so river etc can get formed then covered The Cretaceous period was 80 million years ago with an inland sea splitting and that sea flowed out etc

its a shotgun shell

No-no-no
it is a first nations tool
so it is not a pig castrator but a bison castrator
The federal thingy is a 10 gu. shotgun shell 3 inch

Cool info. Thanks

It’s an unfinished banner stone…
A winged banner stone ,,,
Bannerstones were made in different types bottle, tube, winged
They are believed to have been weights for the atlatl thrower,,, though it is still debated by some archaeologists.
I’ve never found a winged banner,, but I have found 2 tube banners

My knowledge on artifacts is on the low side of the scale. Did watch what others were calling a Hardin/ Etley point about 3 and a half inches long bring 1700 dollars at a public auction here in Central MO Friday night. I would have been very leery of it as it looked way too perfect to me. I hope none of you guys are sitting on a rose quartz banner stone because your financial state would be something to envy. Also saw a guy pay a hundred bucks for a bird point out of the same frame.