Does copper fouling affect grouping? Does it need to be cleaned out on a regular basis? How many shots should you get before you see copper fouling? Any other thoughts on it?

yes it can effect groups

yes it needs to be cleaned out on a regular basis

it completely depends on the barrel , every one is different , however more early and less as it gets broken in

you need to base line your rifle shoot some groups with a known ammo label them well put them in a file cabinet and use that as your guide

as to how long some guns 50 rounds some 350-450 rounds or more

my target barrel 223 wylde I cleaned at about 40 rounds and got a bunch of copper then shot about 150 rounds and cleaned again and got some copper , then went about 300 and no more copper than the previous time I hadn't noticed groups open up.

I did a rifle for my cousin his 243 he wasn't sure rounds but he had never cleaned and he was to the point where it jsut wouldn't shoot like it had , it was green when I ran the bore scope down it
it took a ton of cleaning and got better , he was also old enough he needed to get his eyes fixed

Yes it will affect groups. Lots of factors on round count from rifling type, cal, bullet ect.

It's not hard to remove, I clean the boar then rin a patch with copper solvent factors few times then a clean patch. Repeat untill there is no green/blue on the clean patch.

5 r rifling seems to clean much faster than other rifling in my experience. So far that the only real advantage I hav found from it.

Absolutely.

I had a 308 that I couldn't get to group, I was sure it was scope or mount problems. I tried all sorts of things to fix it. Finally a guy asked me when the last time was that I de-coppered it; I said "what?".

I took his advice and got some Barnes de-copper solution. It brought my groups from dinner plate size to under 1.5 inches, which is good enough for me. I noticed with that rifle, groups starting to spread out noticeably after 60 shots. Different rifles will vary.

BTW, regular cleaning solvent will not remove copper.

With a properly broken in, quality barrel, groups will maintain for longer than one would think. The real culprit IMHO is carbon fouling. When the groups from my guns start to fall off I typically give the bore about 10 to 15 strokes with a nylon brush and a bore cleaner called Patch-Out. Then dry patches until they don't come out black or gray anymore. A little blue, in the case of the patch-out, doesn't bother me too much. About 2 or 3 times a year I will really go at it and soak the bore for 15 or 20 minutes followed with clean patches till the blue is gone. I never use a bronze brush as it will give you a false positive on your patches.

My reason for asking is I have a new tikka T3x 7mm Rem Mag. I am shooting Barnes 150 grain TTSX bullets in it and it seems to be fouling up pretty bad after 4 or 5 shots. Bad enough it affects the group and you can see the build up in the barrel. I'll continue to clean the copper out and I may go ahead and buy some different factory ammo and see how it does. Thanks for the replies.

Yes Sir, that video you posted was what got me questioning the carbon fouling.

Every rifle is different.

Small bores typically foul faster.

Most of my .22 center fires and 6mms I clean every 200’ish rounds.

A rifle that doesn’t get shot much (<100 a year) I’d just give it a quick once over once a year.

Improper cleaning procedures can potentially do MORE damage to a barrel than neglect though. So do it right.

Factory tubes often benefit from a “break-in” period.

Shot one round, clean, one round, clean, etc etc for 10-12 rounds.

Than shoot three rounds, clean, three rounds, clean, etc. Often you’ll see a point where fouling seems to dramatically disappear.

Basically fire lapping the bore but you gotta get the crud out so you have good bullet to steel contact each round. Imperfections in the bore are holding excessive fouling, and it’s build up prevents those initial shots from knocking those imperfections down.

I think rifles are a lot like black iron skillets. Using them improves them. I llke to keep carbon out. Cleaning pretty regular. Carbon build up increases pressure. Consistent pressure is a necessity to accurate shooting. No sense using a copper remover though till groups open up. When they do open up check for loose screws, scope internals getting bad, and bedding. Then copper. I have noticed that after getting the copper out the first 3-5 shot group is pretty big then it tightens back up. IMO the guy in that video is on to something.


When I say keep getting better thats not forever of course. Barrels will wear out but it takes many thousands of rounds

you can look up barrel break in procedures , it is a topic sure to start a fight on many an internet forum

the truth is the exact procedure seems to matter less in end results and more in how few rounds to do it

when you get rounds that a barrel has a 2100 round life span and they need it to last through practice and a competitive season before it is shot out

so they trade labor for round count

so if you want the absolute least rounds shot one clean , shoot 2 clean , shoot 3 clean or something like that

if round count isn't an issue shoot a box clean , shoot a box clean or whatever a nice range trip is for you

my 223 and 308 isn't pushing any uber fast velocity , non magnum , not even hot rodded

pressure , heat and rough barrel , and bullet fit seem to all be factors in copper fouling

7mm mag is a mag so you will likely not get hundreds of rounds , then again your not likely to go have a 100 round shooting session with a 7mag either

clean it after say your first 3 trips to the range , then confirm zero and go hunt if you see groups open up or pick a round count to clean it at.

when you do clean I like to always get out and verify zero again with a few rounds and maybe take a picture of my group so I can have a record of it

I know some one is going to say you should have it set up to always be right on the first CCB clean cold bore shot . and if you were a sniper you might go to that level and verify it with a lot of ammo , chances are your not that intense about it. this was also more for when we were shooting corrosive ammo , you had to clean after every use so you needed it to always be ready on a CCB.

When I resumed reloading for rifles a couple years back, I had it pretty easy except for one rifle. It caused me all kinds of fits and my first reaction was to cuss it. But that has forced me to look into all manner of things that go into an accurate rifle, and now see it as a blessing. Has opened my eyes to a big, wide world that was previously unknown to me and one of those is what goes on inside a rifle barrel. A world of voodoo, whoodoo and all kinds of weird stuff. A big mystery because for the most part, you can't see what is going on in there........and is at the microscopic level if you could. But there are not many areas around a rifle where you can find the best of the best experts telling you flat out 180, contradictory opinions that what to do with the inside of a barrel.

Crib notes version (as I understand it now) is when they come out of the box, factory rifle barrels from a Ruger or a Savage or a Remington or just about any other factory barrel, can be a real crap shoot. Can be a good shooter or can be a problem child. A big part if it is as Gun Blue described. They can come out of the box with very rough machining marks. Burrs, striated, spiraling machine marks, sharp edges, etc. High end custom barrels are generally lapped at the factory to get rid of all that. Mass produced factory barrels, no such lapping. So they get a long term break in process. Shoot, clean, etc. Got one reloading book where a guy talks about his rifle breaking in around 200 shots, groups dropped in size. What he was seeing was the eventual fire lapping of his barrel.

Turns out if you have a heavy fouling factory barrel, you can short circuit a lot of that and go ahead and lap the barrel to smooth it out from the jump. An undersized nylon brush (like 6mm in a 7mm rifle) with patch impregnated with products like JB Bore paste or Autosol. 50 or 60 strokes in throat and to end of barrel (not out of end of barrel). Then clean all that out and then start shooting. Accuracy should go up and fouling go down.

Gun Blue did not say what copper remover caused his problems, but most likely it was an ammonia based product like Sweets. Can be very caustic, yet John Krieger of Krieger barrels recommends it's use when breaking in a barrel. Most "experts" have now moved over to one of the two Bore Tech copper eliminators and nylon brushes. Use one of those with anything bronze (brush or jag) and you will get false positives for copper. Product is breaking down the brush or jag and leaves a blue tint to the patch. I switched to nylon brushes and bore tech jag and my patches cleaned up.

Talked to guys building with Bartlein barrels and they are smooth, low fouling barrels. Can go hundreds of rounds with little to no copper fouling, so they don't clean copper out all that often. A heavy fouling barrel is a different story. Maybe less than 50 shots for those and you got your work cut out for you.

Follow the groups. Keep carbon cleaned out with a mild cleaner for carbon. If groups start opening up try a copper cleaner to see if that tightens the groups back up or if it's just throat wearing down.

if your cleaning copper , nylon brushes and Nickle plated jags are the way to go

I have tried sweets , Barnes c-10 and Hoppes foaming bore cleaner

Barnes and sweets seem to work the fastest , all of them need to be neutralized when finished

so clean carbon , then copper , then water patches to neutralize the ammonia that removes the copper , dry , then a run of your regular bore cleaner like Hoppes #9
follow the manufacturers directions

a tool like this https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014920517?pid=685691
it lets you get the nasty chemical where you want it and not where you don't want it , think of it like painters tape and drop cloths for painting. if you keep the mess off the stuff you don't want it on you can significantly reduce the clean up

I didn't have this on the first bolt action rifle I cleaned the copper out of , had to get in and get the bolt lug recess cleaned out which is a pain, because it caused a little rust there , nothing to freak you out like causing rust in your few week old new rifle. because you cleaned and neutralized the barrel but hadn't realized it had gotten into the bolt lug recess

You answered your own question, with condition/quality of production barrels. It’s getting better but price has little to do with quality. If you get a rough bore from the factory, you’re most likely going to get good at scrubbing with ammonia, or some type of ammonia formula. Fire lapping can help but don’t get carried away. Cast bullets are scorned by some for the same reason.

Thanks for all the replies.

Rifles barrels foul for 2 reasons. Internal barrel roughness or excess velocity. Not likely the later is your problem. A good bore scope after thorough cleaning should tell the story. Rough barrels can still be accurate.

If you ever have the opportunity to clean a high end, custom barrel, you will see an amazing difference. Very little time needed to clean, and after the first pass to remove the carbon fouling the remaining cooper will easily come out.

Are Tikka barrels generally rough?

they get fine accuracy , never seen a before and after.

are they a lapped Kreiger ,Hart , Rock Creek or Obermeyer. no they are a good quality but a production not a custom

7mm rem mag isn't exactly a low pressure slow round either you have a barn burner .284 in a production barrel