I'm not to much help here. I have a good population of coyotes. Maybe not like SW Kansas but a good population here. And I have proven areas to test. 90% of my testing is down a dirt hole. I want to know which one they like enough to dig for and if comparison testing, which one they will dig for the most.Just the lure or bait. No holder.

90% of my test sets get worked on day 3 if they get worked. Never had to really fight low humidity during warm temperatures so can't advise there.

I did catch a coyote 82 days after luring a step down dirt hole that was under water and frozen solid at least twice once. And had a trapper up north this winter catch two coyotes in sets that got snowed in under several feet of snow for 100 plus days then melt off on some stuff I sent it him. Think he had that stuff out on only a handful of sets.

Can't say that ive tested stuff in your conditions but part of making a good formulation is truly fixing it and finding a good base that will hold an odor.

It would be interesting to test methods of holding odors in your conditions but I doubt I could do it here as are coyotes don't range that big and they find it too soon. My experience is after a couple visits coyotes lose intrest and around here that happens after about a week or so.

Coondagger2 I also enjoy these discussions about coyotes. Even if we disagree I can learn something or at least pickup food for thought.

Yes Sir. Camera batteries might go dead before the coyotes come back !! Record here for coyote returning is 64 days. LoL !

I do have. A 129 dollar 8 AA battery Moultree camera. But know nothing about it.

Got to be careful about what cameras u use. A lot will spook coyotes or at least put them more on guard. And there can be more of a learning curve to using them than what you would think, especially in windy areas.

I am only kidding. I have 1 old deer camera. We set it up at a friends. But their is a old bushnell here. We can use ! Lantern batteries LoL!

We don't have the numbers here so usually it's a one and done deal here. Usually they will come in and check it out then ignore it afterwards with their curosity satisfied. I can see with a higher population and competition being greater, many would come in to lures or baits that normally wouldn't draw much if any interest.

I can give a testimony to why I like testing. Last year I was trying three new baits that I didn’t have time to test. I used them in a rotation so equal amounts of each bait out on my trapline the first three weeks or so. Bait and good urine only. Didn’t mess with any lures. All three baits were holding their own with one front runner edging out the others. The problem came with what I noticed at sets where I didn’t catch. One of the baits if I missed them it would be a one or two print in the pattern miss. No multiple steps, no digging at the hole, just one sniff and move on. Now I was catching some on the first sniff, but pretty quickly put the bait back in my shed and went with the more attractive stuff. Pretty sure this was some of the same stuff I’ve seen you say you liked CD2 and I know it came from a guy who Bob used stuff from. I try to get all the land I can get to trap on, but I still can’t fill out a full season with new, big areas. As a result, I want to catch the most I can when I’m on a place. I’m no big numbers guy. About 50 canines/cats a year until I can pick up some more land. That May disqualify my opinion, but the coyotes do indeed tell me what is working and what is just mildly interesting since I’ve started letting them tell me via cameras

I’ll be honest at one point I was afraid this thread was going to go off the rails. And not only was I hesitant to post it originally but I was also worried about how the rest of the group would react. But I’m so glad I posted it. Being new to trapping is not only exciting but daunting. And to have a community like this is something special. I’ve read every comment and I’m learning a ton. I understand it comes down to time and work I put in and like anything else you love doing you have to invest in it with both time and money. I’m not afraid of doing both. Again I appreciate each and every one of you who have taken the time to read and reply on my post thank you again.
Jim

DoubleJ ask about choosing scents and the thread morphed into a testing thread as an aid toward determining the attractiveness of scents but there is another facet of testing that gets over looked and that is foot placement. The cameras will show repeated, inherent behavior of foot placement if the tester doesn’t use any visual or physical guiding which is the reason for only using a simple little test hole. This became even more obvious when I tested gland lures and grubstakes because the scent was above ground.

Just a few thoughts from an old man.
The lure and bait conversation will go on forever.
Ardell Grawe wrote in one of his books that there were only a handful of guys in the lure making business that really understood
all that was important in the lure and bait making game.

I have always thought he was right. Back when I used to trap more thus use more lure etc. I came to think there were but a handful of lure makers I would buy from.




In areas with a plethora of coyotes or foxes, those animals act differently than the same species in areas of lesser numbers. I know some of the experts will dispute this but they are the same guys that will say they do not think they have an advantage being able to check traps whenever they get to it. They will say that there is so much distance between fur pockets, the country is rough etc. etc. and the competition was bad. Trap in the East for tough competition. You have read about a great number of trappers going West for canines or cats. How many have read stories or articles of guys going East for trapping coyotes or cats?

I am good friends with a guy that has trapped all over the country. It was fun to hear him compare trapping fox in New England compared to Maryland or Southern PA.

Up in this country, back in the 70, 80s when prices were decent you had a tough time catching a 100 fox. Lots of hard work. You better have the stars aligned, plenty of time off, plenty of money for traveling, a tremendous work ethic and decent luck, not to mention you better know what you are doing.



Catching a 100 fox back then was a freaking feat of endurance in New England. I realize catching a 100 fox in some part of the country can be done in 2 or 3 days.

I do not give a crap what some experts say, fox under a ton of pressure become much more difficult. Not because they are smarter, just different circumstances play into animal behavior. I will suggest they are shyer

Why was it harder and different? Tough access to fur due to rough forested country and road systems, a skinny million gates to open and close.

Competition was through the roof, to catch a large number of those high dollar fox you had to cover a lot of ground. Maine weather, as is all of New England weather, is typically as bad as it gets concerning canine trapping.

My friend went to Maryland and part of PA for a few years. He would always come back shaking his head. His last day's catch when pulling a line would often be similar to his first check day. Just an amazing number of animals. He explained that the foxes down in that country were very competitive and not anywhere near as shy as say a Maine fox. Note I did not say smarter, I said shy.

What does all of this rambling mean?

While it is easy to say a coyote is a coyote, a bobcat is a bobcat, or a fox is a fox, yes biologically it is true.

But it is common sense that the environment, numbers of animals, numbers of trappers, the access to the country, the weather patterns etc. etc. makes it all interesting. Try setting just blind sets in the East if you are trapping bobcats!

Would anyone really expect a lure that tested out as a spectacular attractor when tested in a country that has a high number of canines to have the same reaction in a part of the country with low numbers?
My answer would be that typically the super attractor will have some attraction but I am betting the success will not be the same.

The lure and bait making business has always held a lot of fascination for trappers. There have always been a lot of trappers looking for magic in a bottle. That is a fact.

One of my favorite trapping writers and lure makers was the late Walter Arnold. He wrote in more than one place about how the success of lures would often vary from one section of the country to the other. I believe he was correct and that that theory still holds true today.

Because we are such a small demographic of the population, it does not seem logical to me that trappers should be getting all hot under the collar about a little stink in a bottle. We have bigger fish to fry.

Happy lure testing and happy trapping guys.

Mac

Another well written piece!

Someone needs to archive Macs post. Like put it at the top of the Trapping Only Forum. Great write up.

Mac
I have to ask for the sake of clarification, are you saying a a formulation developed in an area of high density coyotes can't be really good even in areas of low density and high pressure?

Neil has been around the block Mac and he knows the facts from his experience. Most that have trapped around the country for many years would most likely agree and share the same opinion.

Who is Neil?

Yes Sir. I WILL go ahead and say it. IT MIGHT NOT be !! Why ? Because IF it has some of the basic most widely used ingredients in its lure formulation the coyotes HERE may run from it ! Beleive it or not. West Texas sheep trappers ALL talk and get alone well. The USDA trapper down the road 20 miles. I am friends with. I answer ALL their questions. I am their elder ! LoL! They let me ride in the front of the truck last time we did denning work together = cause im the oldest But any way. IF South West Elemanator is killing coyotes. And is over used then = Thats a problem So we all talk. IF i get one of their coyotes = Im the bad ones on me. I know what NOT to use. I have lure that to my knowledge only 4 people has. That has got me bad sheep killing females that others couldnt catch before. Keep in mind. Here. A bad coyote doesnt = Scratch = Dig at dirthholes = walk around sets. A REALLY bad one just. Kills and leaves ! That a bad female and IF you dont catch her ??? She kills = leaves = comes back 2 months later

Well said steeltraps my friend.

Mac

ST
I fully believe high pressured coyotes can get conditioned to certain smells. Heck I got coyotes right here by my house I can't catch. But the way I read Macs comment is that it is ridiculous that a lure that test spectacular on coyotes in a high density population, test really good in a low density population.

To be clear when I say test good I'm talking on a comparative bases to other formulations. Im not talking about a catch rate of 1;10 in a high population then expecting that same catch rate in a low density area.

Rather a formulation that runs a higher than others catch rate in a high population area having a higher than others catch rate in a low population area. If that makes sense. When I say other I'm referring to other formulations. Or if testing a strong reaction to a particular formulation compared to other formulations.

Mac
We're you saying the same thing as ST that coyotes can get conditioned to certain smell or that it's ridiculous that a formulation that tests great in a high population will test great in a low population?

Yea Sir. Another problem maybe getting some guys in low density coyotes to test it ! IF you job is on the line. Might not be the best time to test ol Yes Sir’s new lure !! Ha Ha ! LoL ! But on a serious note. Once I trust a lure. And see it work for me = in medium coyote density I may try it in the sheep ! Jameson = Wesiner = Ogorman’s = that stuff = K9 Hitter I have all tested. And only NOW would I use them = right time. Right place in the sheep. I admit. = their are no majic lures. BUT when James Lucero gave me one and said = Only use it when you really need to stop killing. And it was his great grandfather lure. I consider it so different. That i have total confidence in it.