My wife decided we need a new furnace last summer. So she contacted a company that was recommend by a friend. We had a old cast iron fuel oil boiler. They came in and said, you need a 110000 BTU to heat this house. Are house is roughly 3000 sq ft. The old boiler always kept up no matter how cold it was. With the new one when the temp went to sub zero the warmest we can get the house to was 58 degrees. They came out on Friday and said its working good now by increasing the pump speed. That did not help. They came out of Sat and said the thermostat were bad. I replaced 3 of them, didn't help. They came out yesterday worked on it for 5 hrs, changing lots of setting. Didn't help at all. Wife called another heating company, they came out. First thing the guy says is this system is to small and not designed to heat a house this size. Then he asked about the old boiler, if that kept up. I said no problem it would cook us out.

We had a Navien Combi-boiler put in. Both domestics hot water and heat boiler.

Any heating guy have any advise??

Was old boiler hot water or steam? Old steam boilers were magical instruments.

Make them upgrade to what you need.

This^^^

This sucks but I've been hearing of similar problems the past few years.

Hot water, we have the baseboards. Not the big cast iron heaters.

What was the btu rating on your old boiler?

Was the new one approved by Biden ?

Western Wildlife Services
GI Don’t want Joe

Are lines circulating......and not air locked? If circulating, is first radiator in the loop hot and they progressively cool off......or never hot enough to heat in the first place? As in boiler can't heat the water fast enough? How many pumps and loops?

Not a heating guy. Just have an oil fired boiler and baseboard heat, so is the boiler running all the time? If so the boiler is too small in my opinion.

Back in time when we got weeks of -50f my boiler would run a lot but not constantly.

I cant find a BTU rating for old boiler. The heating guy says the new boiler is running at 25 percent. I said if that true were only using 27000 BTU's to heat the house. The pipes coming up to and going out of baseboards are hot and the fins are luke warm. They have tried both speeding up the pump and slowing it down. The set temp is at 180 degree F. I have never seen it get to top temp. Its normally running at 165 to 175F

There is a canister on the floor to bleed off any air in the system. There is only one pump and 3 zones. All 3 have there own thermostat.


The guy last night said we could get a regular hot water heater and use it to keep heated water in and circulate . I dont know if thats is possible.

The second opinion you received was too small boiler and that was it or did he try to get the boiler up to working correctly. Seems to me that there is a problem with the burner controls. Is there any burner tune up guys there that you can get advice from?

Auto bleeder or manual?

Glycol or water?

Get the idiots that installed the thing to make it right.Mess around with it on your own and they will say you voided any warrenty.

You shouldn't have to do all this checking. BUT go to NAPA and purchase an inferred temperature reader and know the actual temperature it would help to know beyond feeling the pipes. They aren't expensive. The bleeder might be automatic and not working and there could be an air lock. But the boiler not reaching operating temperature is a clue to the problem if I understand correctly..

Your right but they can't so he had to come to the Ex-Sperts.

That's when its time to call consumer affairs and the better business bureau.It their job to take care of stuff like this.

Have you checked your fuel consumption ? Do you know how much you started with ? Is the boiler getting enough fuel ? Is there a restriction in the line or a filter that is clogged ? Are you burning #1 fuel oil ?
I, as others, suspect the unit is undersized if everything is functioning as it should.

If it ain't broke.
But hind sights 20-20

Auto bleeder

Glycol

Were on are 3rd tank of Propane 500 gallon

They increased gas pressure

I have not touched it. When they unhooked the old boiler they also unhooked the Electric boiler and that does not work now. We were getting dual fuel rate from the power company.

Oh. Propane ! Maybe it is getting too cold for the propane to get from the tank to the furnace. What kind of temperatures are you getting ? I'm sure there is no wind there either !!

Well,,take my advice in my previous posts .

You originally had an oil boiler. Sorry for thinking that's what you put back in.

Be glad you were not up here by me. I would guess I averaged 5-10 degrees colder than you did. I had 20 below this morning, so it is warming up.

The large system I worked with had 4 zones and 4 pumps. When the thermostat called for heat, the pump kicked on. Took me a while to wrap my head around it, but these were suction pumps in the basement of a 3 story building. Hot water would rise on supply side, cold water would sink on return, so pumps basically just boosted the natural thermo syphon to keep hot water running in the loop. But for that to work, could be no air in system to break the syphon or sediment in system to impede the flow.

Baseboards we had were just a piece of fin tube. Same diameter supply pipe soldered to end of the fin tube pipe. Hot water flowed thru and fins radiated heat. Don't understand how water could be hot on either side and not the tube in the middle, unless water is only conducting heat and not flowing.

The complete loop starting from boiler reservoir / supply was then loop up, then at very peak of the loop was a riser with a ball check valve on it. Any air in the loop would float up to the riser and vent.......then once purged, water pressure would hold the ball check valve closed. It was self venting. Loop would complete back to pump and cycle continued. Also required was a source of makeup water to keep the system filled with slight pressure to hold check valves closed and in the basement an expansion tank filled with captive air to act as a shock absorber.The ball check valves got most of the air trapped in the system, but there were manual bleeder valves too. If loop wasn't flowing had to check them all. An air lock would shut down the flow and you got nothing.

So if you have three loops and one pump, how does the thermostat call for heat? What happens when it does? Does an electric solenoid type valve open and close?

BTW, a large hot water heater, if it will heat to 180 or so, IS a boiler. In building I worked with, was told any commercial rated hot water heater over 90 gallons had to have an annual boiler inspection, same as regular boiler. In addition to heating water, an adjacent hot water heater can be used as a storage / pre-heat tank. But not if you are using glycol for your liquid.

Try turning down one of the zones so it’s not calling for heat and see if that helps heat up the other zones.

I just got home, I will turn 2 of the thermostat down to 50 degrees and leave the one in sleeping level at 70.

I'm sure that new set up cost a pretty penny. HVAC stuff is stupid expensive.

It stinks that you're having all this trouble. I hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction and keep us updated.

Baseboards we had were just a piece of fin tube. Same diameter supply pipe soldered to end of the fin tube pipe. Hot water flowed thru and fins radiated heat. Don't understand how water could be hot on either side and not the tube in the middle, unless water is only conducting heat and not flowing.

I'm wondering the samething if it just conducting heat. It says the pump is pumping 6 gallons a min.

With multiple zones and a single pump, you are bound to have solenoid valves to control the flow in each zone. Sounds like you have a circulation problem. Either air in the system, solenoids not opening or the pump just not pumping.

We had an oil fired unit with the finned type baseboard exchangers. We had two zones and two pumps. Dad chose that system when the house was built because he did not want forced air that would stir up dust.

I remodeled the house in the 80s and ripped the heating system out and replaced it with a geo thermal heat pump, forced air.

I turned 3 thermostat down to 50, to see if the temp will go up on are bedroom. It's been 2 hrs and the room is still at 60. Did not help at all.

The computer board on boiler says the pump is running at 6 gallons per minute. The pump and pipes are so hot you can't put your hands on them. I have said all along is the pump working or is it running the wrong direction.

The guys that put it in says pump is working and running the right direction.

Then why is it 59 or 60 degrees in here.

Another picture. It was 8 above and temp in house never came up

Sounds like it is not circulating the hot water.

Your installer should be at your house figuring out what they have plumbed or wired wrong.

Sounds like you have air in the system with the pump/pipes too hot but heat not getting where it is needed. can you bleed the system one zone at a time?

I see zone valves.

The gray canisters will bleed any air in the system.

They knew it wasn't working today and never showed up.

It cost right at 8000.00

The company is All Season Mechanical out of Fargo N.D.

I think the heat I feel in the pipes is conducted heat not pumped heat. The old boil had a issue real similar. The relay to turn the pump on went bad one night. I opened the electric box and wired in a extention cord and let it run all the time and we had heat again.

Could they have not opened all valves properly. I have an electric boiler system, with base board radiators. I also have an outdoor wood burner that heats the system, and bypasses the electric boiler, but uses the same pump. The valve opening and closing can be quite confusing. We bought this home last year, and luckily, the previous owner had all valves tagged with instructions.
The installer should be there getting the new equipment working properly, or replacing it!!!

You can try turning the silver screw on the pump and if water comes out its typically circulating. You can manually open those zone valves on the side. Another thing would be if they crossed up one of the thermostat wires with the wrong zone.

Are those some kind of a compression joint on the pipes? Have seen a lot of problems with the welded joints in New pvc pipes with over compressing the joint and restricting water flow.

Looks to me like you need to raise some Cain with the install company. I personally would not be very pleasing to deal with if it were me.

That gray cannister, lower left corner isn't bleeding anything. It's the expansion tank. The shock absorber in the system. Bleeder vents may be upstairs. Look for a screw on a riser on each fin tube. Crack those open to see if you get water or air.

Yes everything is compression fittings.

Another idea would be if they crossed up a supply with a return and it's short cycling thru the boiler. It's seems like there is too many zones on a single pump.

I would like to find a real sharp guy that can trouble shoot the problem. And take the installer to court. Because there in no hurry to come back.

Can you hear gurgling in the lines. That would indicate running in the wrong direction but wouldn't cause poor heat. Are there bleeder valves in the highest part of the system or is the bladder tank (gray one) where the auto bleeder is?

You probably are air locked!

The brass fitting on top of your expansion tank it a super vent. Make sure the little cap is loose on it to allow air to come out. I have had a faulty one of those, you can take a small wire or paper clip and insert it thru the small hole behind the cap. Just push a little bit and water will squirt out of it along with air. They should have installed that before the pump.

Is the fin tube fed from below? You said in an earlier post that the pipes on each side of the fin tube were hot but the fin tube was cool. If fed from below the water could be air blocked in the fin tube and trickling through and the pipes on each side be holding water thus be hot.

Gotta ask..., what made you buy a fuel oil one?

Try manually opening the zone valves.

Do you have a pressure gauge on the propane line? Low temps affect pressures. I know this from our lp corn dryer ( grain dryer ). Maybe an orfice is plugged or not working properly? Did they switch it from natural gas to propane like a gas stove, and was it done correct?

I’m no hvac guy, but I’d hold the company who would installed the unit responsible.

Good luck hopefully your issue is resolved.

If your boiler temp is reaching 180 degrees, that's not the issue. It's a circulation issue.

just a thought, what is that circ pump rated at? and is it installed right? should be a arrow on the body showing direction of flow.

My set up is similar to yours. I isolate one zone and purge the air, get that zone working properly and go to the 2nd zone, then the 3rd. I have circulators on each zone.

I have Taco brand pumps which have an arrow on the housing that shows the flow direction, perhaps yours does also. It’s not real visible because the arrow is molded into the housing and painted over.

I bet the loops are air locked. You may have to install purge valves at the boiler to get the water to circulate.

manually open the zone valves and see what you get

Sounds like they should purge the air from the system, if the pipes have air in them the water won’t flow through the pipes and the system won’t automatically purge the air out. Is the house two stories? If so you may have to run the boiler water pressure up around 18-20 psi.

I see it was suggested to buy a Infared heat thermometer and I also recommend that option so you can tell if you’re getting circulation, as then you would know what the pipe temp is throughout the whole system.

I think the second guy nailed it being undersized, your area calls for about 50 btu/ sq. ft for baseboard heat. But if you are maintaining 170* water that should be sufficient, is that boiler loop temp or heating loop temp? Pics are blurry when zoomed in to see if the piping layout is correct. What is that unit to the left of the boiler hanging on the wall, piped into the boiler loop, the one valve to it is off. I would hope both techs would've checked for air lock.

901

To me the key to fixing the problem is where OP said heat on each side of fin tube and fin tube is cooler. Airlock IMO.

Wouldn't undersized boiler use more fuel and run a lot more? He said he is using a lot of fuel.

Wouldn't an air lock cause it to use more fuel too. The water is hot but not going any where it thinks its cold. It sounds like it is burning plenty of fuel. I switched over to my second 500 gallon propane tank on the 6th of Jan. I have forced air.

I have limited experience with propane systems except temporary propane unit heaters during really cold and it turning to liquid. It seems that the furnace is computer controlled and it may not be able to figure out that there is a problem so just burning fuel.

Not sure if it is still a problem since OP hasn't commented since last evening.

Yes, agreed and that's what the second service tech diagnosed as well and the problem seemed to surface during sub zero temps. Hard to say for sure without being there but if the entering & leaving pipes are both hot but the fins are cooler, the heat is being transferred to the air flowing across them which is normal. The return temp & boiler cycle times would be telling. If supply & return temps are decent but the boiler is running continuously and the house isn't getting warmer just screams undersized. I ruled out the air lock only because with as many techs were troubleshooting it, surely they'd find that...but you never know

Curious to hear what the problem is. Not all hvac people know there stuff. I built a new house in 2007 and had my nephew who owns the company give me a bid.ive got a outside wood boiler and needed pex hose ran in.underground.told him how I wanted it done,wanted the insulated pex hose for outside boilers.yep I know what you mean he told me.i came home from work one night and he had the trench dug and pex hose laying in it ,but wasn't the type I was talking about so I called him and said this isn't the insulated pex I was talking about.he said we use this all the time,I told him 3 times before they filled the trench in that it wasn't going to work.he assured me it would.went down new years eve to fill the stove and slid on the mound of dirt .called him and told him the ground was thawed where the pex hose was running underground and he better get his butt out here.needless to say I went thru a pile of wood that year.the following summer he came out and dug it up put the insulated pex down like I told him too do.no problem since.

I see pressure/temp gauges on the supply and return. I'm curious what those are reading.

There is a big difference between residential and commercial heating tech's.

Usually the zone valves ( gray boxes with wires coming out above the circulator pump) have a spring loaded lever located under the wires. If the zone valves are open and allowing water to flow through you can move the lever with no resistance, if the lever moves but with resistance then the zone valves aren’t open. I assume they are working. You can also manually lock the zone valves open with the lever by pushing it open and then push it behind the notch in the housing

The gray tank on the floor is the systems expansion tank, it allows the heated water to expand and not cause the pressure to rise. The brass unit on top of it a spiravent and it removes the air from the system as the water flows through it.

If one section of fin tube has an airlock and hot water is passing through but because of air its partial it would effect the whole system. Auto bleeders are notorious for not working.

Maybe the OP has fixed the problem! Would be good to know the outcome and that they are warm!

If you look close at the stainless steel tubing coming out of the boiler the arrow on the manifold points to the right for flow. And the pump is pushing water to the left. They have the pump going the wrong direction.

They didn't change it, they want to till tomorrow.

I don't know what there plan is. There coming back tomorrow morning.

Easy enough to reverse the circulator.

The arrow was hard to see. I was trying to trouble shoot it when I seen the arrow with flow direction. I called the company and the owner came out. He said his guys messed it up. And they will take care of it.

They will push the water into the return lines. How will that work?


I open just about all the bleeder valves on the registers. There was no air.

Too bad you have to wait another day! Easy fix he should have done it.

I am not so sure that is the problem. Years ago I installed my boiler and the pump was running the wrong direction. It worked for many years that way until I had a new boiler installed and that's when I found out. It just was always noisy!

It looks like a pretty clean install. They should have you on your way in a matter of minutes. They isolated the circulator well.

Can they push water away from the boiler and expansion and bleeder tank.

Sure.

Don't sweat it. Those small vents are designed to remove residual air (small amounts) in the system. I would imagine your plumber will purge the system after he reverses the circulator. It's a very straightforward process you can do yourself once you've been shown how.

Will they turn the pump or just rewire it?

Turn it 180 degrees.

Not that simple, those zone valves are also directional as are some air scoops. They are going to have to reverse piping assuming the zv's are on return where they should be. Still curious as to what that unit is hanging to the left of the boiler.

Zone valves or circulators can be on the supply or return. Zone valves act as a flow check when closed but don't impede flow in either direction when open. I'm assuming the only issue was the inadvertent reversal of the circulator. Hopefully they didn't short themselves on the wiring if that's the only issue.

Correct they can go on supply or return but return is preferred for ZV's, those Honeywell ZV's absolutely impede flow if installed in the wrong direction. I looked up the piping diagram for that boiler, it shows return connection is on the right side so according to OP the pump is correct, maybe they installed the SS primary header backwards? Seems that unit to the left is a hydronic air handler

That is the Electric 30KW boiler. They took unhooked it now it doesn't work. I asked the boss man yesterday when they were going to fix it. He asked why it was taken apart. I don't know.

Any progress?

I have been on the phone with the office and tech. I think there trying to figure out what they need to do.

What are your temperatures there today?

About 20 years ago, I took over what amounted to building superintendent duties on a 3 story residential structure. Original part was about 100 years old and was heated by live steam. About 50 years prior, an addition was put on and it was heated by hot water radiant heat.........using live steam thru a heat exchanger to heat the water. The commercial furnace guy met me one day to go over the entire system. How it was designed......how it worked. My first impression was it was only slightly more complicated than a nuclear submarine.......but over time, came to realize the brilliance of the system. A mechanical marvel designed and built 50 to 100 years ago by some truly genius minds. Heating guy referred to them as "the ancients".

Fast forward 10 years, in sections where the hot water radiant heat system pipes passed thru......the two upper floors.......got gutted and remodeled one summer. We get into late fall and the heat comes on........yet no heat on the two upper floors. Talked to commercial contractor what did the remodel work and they assured me it was working. Went back to the commercial heating expert and we talk thru it. Long story short, after I (just me) spent two days messing with it concluded that during the remodel, they had cut and capped the circulation pipes. No more loop......only two dead ends. It took me and the commercial heating guy almost two hours to convince the general contractor, his plumbing sub contractor and two architects they had screwed the pooch. Their understanding........and even ability to understand it......was abysmal. It took them nearly 2 weeks and tens of thousands of $ to come back to rip out the finish so they could fix it. Somebody's E & O took a big hit.

My takeaway was if these systems are designed and installed right, they both simple and highly effective way to heat some space. If not, they can be a nightmare to deal with.

My other takeaway was even 20 year ago, the commercial boiler guy was charging about $100 per hour.......probably closer to $150 per hour or more today. If I was a young guy who had a mind for mechanical systems, there is a wide open career path for you. Buildings with these systems in place swill exist and there is a need for experts who understand how to keep them running. A forced air HVAC system is one thing. Commercial rated live steam boilers are something else entirely. Along the lines of brain surgery isn't hard if you know how. Those that know how can make a lot of money.

What they need to do is show up to put eyes on what they did and what they got. They are not going to figure it out somewhere else.

I’m currently an HVAC estimator but was an installer and service tech for many years. That boiler is obviously a condensing boiler (pvc flue piping) one thing I do know about condensing boilers is that they have an outdoor sensor (to change firing rate of boiler according to load condition of home). Was this installed? If so, was it installed where the flue exhaust is actually discharging right on the outdoor sensor? This will prevent the boiler from high firing thinking that it’s actually warmer outside than it really is. I know I saw that you had an oil boiler currently and I just find it odd that a brand new 95% condensing boiler is not handling this load. (You have very minimal heat lost through the pvc exhaust) the oil boiler probably had around 400* flue temp. Your actual boiler sizing drops whenever you installer this high efficiency equipment. That new boiler probably has around a 90* flue temp. I know I don’t like the positioning of that circulator. It appears to be on an angle which will cause that circulator to trip on thermal overload. (Its definitely going to burn that circulator up). I do believe that’s your secondary loop pump. There’s suppose to be a primary pump inside that boiler. Did the 30KW no longer being used heat the home alright? 30,000 watts X 3.4 btu = 102,000btu/hr

Disregard what I said about the circulator. I just looked at the pics and realized the photo was flopped. It is in a correct position concerning the shaft.

The installer never showed up today. There waiting to here back from Navian. I told the worker it's been a week since we had good heat. I talked Navian tech support and he said water should flow to the left. I told him arrow says right. He than told me sticker is on backwards. I said it it's backwards the lettering would be backwards and it's not. This weekend is a high of 6 below zero with lows of 15 below. If we don't have a bunch of electric heater on the house will freeze up.

Yes electric boiler worked good till they took it apart.

I would be wanting some money back for all of the bs you've put up with. I know they were recommended by a friend but they don't sound to trustworthy.

Seems like a total disaster to me!

What happens to an easy propane furnace hooked up to simple duct work?

Hopefully it’s just something stupid that was overlooked. I sold a zoned propane boiler a couple years ago that worked fine as long as the outdoor temp was mild outside. But boy, once it got below 20* my phone was ringing off the hook. It turned out that our installation crew wired the supply and return sensor in the boiler backwards. A screwdriver fixed it in 5 minutes and I was the one turning it. For what it’s worth, it looks like those guys did a decent installation. I’m sure if they call tech support while in the mechanical room, this can be figured out. Those condensing boilers have a lot of bells and whistles in them and if one thing isn’t programmed properly……well, this is usually the outcome. I hope they can solve this for you.

I only asked if the electric boiler worked alright to see where you were size wise. 30KW is 102,000 btu/hr @ 100% efficiency since there is no flue letting heat out the chimney so to speak.

So the electric boiler was in addition to the fuel oil boiler you had? Did the new boiler work when it was warmer outside?

The new boiler could be faulty, I've installed a lot of boilers without issue but the one for my own garage doesn't work as it should. It's plenty big enough but it will never modulate down, always runs at 100% and can't get the water temp over 120, which works for in floor. It keeps the space at temp but runs more than it should, but gas is free so it doesn't matter. I can get it to modulate by slowing pumps down but that throws my delta T way out of whack. I've had the rep there running diagnostics, replaced gas valve, talked to factory, no resolution, it just doesn't do what it should. They hooked my up with there newer model but it's still sitting in the crate. I'm glad it was mine & not a customers but average person wouldn't know since space temp is satisfied.

The installers are back working on it. The exhaust pipe is to small according to the manufacturer. They are also moving the pump from the return side to the supply side. Will see if any of it helps.

Yes,electric boiler worked. We get a better rate from power company with dual fuel.


Yes the new boiler worked when warmer outside.

That's going to be invasive. Let us know how you make out.

The zone valves are also directional. They have an arrow on the brass body pointing to the direction of the flow of water.

They get you warm today?

One zone is up to temp, the other two are still working at coming up. Everything was at 58 degrees for so long it's taking a while to get up to temperature. At least I'm hoping that's the problem.

So they got it running on all cylinders?

What was wrong?

X2

It's. -8 today with 15 mph S wind and its 66 and all zone are calling for heat. I think there all out of options right now.

Every time one of those loops calls for heat, the cooler water returning to the boiler brings the boiler temp down. The boiler temp has to rise again. A lot depends on how long those loops are.

I'm interested as well.

I have 5 zones with one pump and its oil fired. Never have had a problem so seems to me the company that installed your system has some fixing to do. Good Luck and Thanks for keeping us in the other LOOP!

With a high of 8 degrees today and 30 mph S wind and all thermostat set at 72 and the highest the house got was 67 degrees.

They know there's a problem, they just don't know what to do.

Is your house well insulated?

there are two setting on the thermostat one is for a slow recovery and the other is for a fast
this controls the speed of the circulating fan as well
sometimes the battery in the wall mounted thermostat is too low and the readings do not go through.

The exhaust port can not have any obstructions within 6 feet or the furnace goes off
or the wind blows right into it as well and ...off she goes ( down turned spout on it ?)

Or inadequate baseboard but he said the oil-fired unit kept up fine.

Install a bigger boiler or fire up your electric boiler up to supplement the combi on the colder days. We put bigger boilers in smaller houses here in PA, with the turndown ratios on the condensing boilers oversizing is a non issue.

On a bright note at least you’re getting closer to the temperature, I hope they get it fixed.

The house was built in 1974. We put new windows in 10 yrs ago and they put in blow in insulation. The Fuel oil boiler had no problem keeping up on the coldest days. It could be 20 below zero, with a 30 mph wind and it still kept the house at 70 degrees. They know there's a problem, they just dont know what to do to fix it.

I hope they figure it out before the cold goes away and tested so you will know for next winter!.

Thanks for the update!

The forecast for the next week is mid 20's to low 30's. It has been a real nice winter for the most part.

Ya know..........I still suspect your furnace is undersized. If you have any data on prior years fuel consumption..........when using oil...........I would try to compare that usage with your current propane usage.

The reason I would do that is because a gallon of #1 fuel oil has 1.5 times the BTU's as a gallon of propane. If you can't feed the furnace enough BTU's going in you sure won't get enough coming out.