Any gap theory believers out there? Pre adamite civilization believers? We had a bible study this week where one of the members taught on this. I think in some ways it makes a lot of sense. The only thing I am fully convinced of is there is a lot more to that time frame than what I was taught growing up. Would love to hear your thoughts one way or the other.

I personally don't believe in a gap theary.
I also don't know of course, no one can. It's an interesting concept.
But I believe Adam was the first man.

I also don't believe in the 70th week gap theary.
I believe the 70th week of Daniel fell right in line with the first 69 weeks.

I lean more towards the day age creationism theory. Current known scientific discoveries & facts parallel this theory.

God's "day" isn't what we consider a day.

But, the bottom line is that we don't know 100% and this will be argued about until the end of time.

Oh no! I think Swamp Wolf I may be on the same page. I love it when people get on the 24 hr day thing in creation and the sun wasn't created til the 4th day.

Another thing I can't get the concept of is dinosaurs on the ark.

This is something I really struggle with. The world just ain't 6000 years old. It's just not. I can hold homo sapien bones and artifacts in my hands that are far older than that, let alone other species in the homo genus, and the fossils of other creatures that are millions of years old.. And, if it's true that the world isn't 6000 years old, then the lineages in the new testament tracing jesus's ancestry back to Adam can't be true either, unless Adam wasn't the original human by a long shot. And then that calls into question the whole thing about this Adam character being the first human to sin, among other things.

At the same time, the world is far too complex to be created by just random chance, and a basic principle of biology is that life cannot come from non-life, implying we didn't come from some primordial soup. I'm not sure how to reconcile these beliefs.

The whole Adam and Eve thing is taken far too literally in my opinion. As are many old testament stories.

This is a good thread so far,
I am enjoying reading different opinions and philosophy of Genesis.

I agree Loose Goose and when ever I get in a discussion about randomness I steer toward the Fibonacci Sequence. Then to design.

I think we can conclusively say God didn't give us all knowledge which would suggest he had a motive and purpose that we should not be all knowing. Logic tells me a God with the power to create this world and every living create on it, and a God with a motive for us not to be all knowing definitely would have the ability and agenda to create things in nature that would confuse us.
A simple analogy would be God creating fossils just like he created the rocks themselves. Not saying he created all fossils as we know they can and are created naturally. But a God that didn't want us to have all knowledge could very easily create things to misdirect us.
I'm a person that likes debating these things but I also realize focusing on learning the things God wants us to know can have more benefits than try to learn the things he doesn't want us to know.

I agree, but the gospels give a lineage from Adam directly to Jesus, and the ages of a lot of those people are found in the old testament (that's how we get the aprox. 6000 year age). Plus, the Bible says Adam was the first man. Given those things. either.....1. The world is millions of years old and some parts of the Bible are wrong 2.The lineages and ages are correct and humans have only been around for 6000ish years, or 3. There were people before aprox. 6000 years ago that the Bible doesn't talk about and weren't considered "man".

I'd like to say that the Adam and eve thing is intended to be a story or poetry, but the lineages point to them as intended to be a real historical event.

Loose Goose, Im with you. The gap theory answers a lot of those questions for me. There is also some, to me, pretty compelling scripture to back up the possibility of gap theory.

Yes sir, you are absolutely right. It is the glory of God to conceal things. We dont know what that looks like. I have heard the argument that he could have put fossils in the ground. I have an open mind to most of these theories as long as they dont go against scripture. I like to ponder the possibilities and am content with not knowing for sure.

I think we can all agree if God didn't want us to have all knowledge there will be things we can never or ever understand

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Many biblical scholars say this was the first flood that probably wiped out the dinosaurs, etc. It was after that God created mankind, which would account for approximately the 6,000 years some refer to. But, the earth itself could easily be millions of years old accounting for the fossils that have been found. It wasn't until after God had finished his remodeling of the earth that he created man in chapter two. The flood of Noah would be the second flood which God caused because he was sorry that he had created mankind. Since God found favor in Noah, as he was a righteous man, he spared him and his descendants. Noah was a descendant of Adam and Eve.

If you believe God has the power to create this earth and every living thing on it there really isn't any argument whether he "could" create fossils. The question is whether he did and if he did do it to keep us from knowledge, well, we'll never have the answer to the question did he create fossils.
Not trying to be argumentative just enjoying a little debate

I think when we get to talking time and years there was a mix of calendars and with a lot of April foolers thrown in. The Babylonians believed the sun revolved around the earth and the earth had a big tunnel thru it and the sun would go thru it and thus caused night time.
The Babylonians number system was set up on 60's unlike ours on 10's. We were much smarter than that, yet retained the 60 seconds and minutes on our clocks.

And then there is the years that the old test people lived that many explain as no germs and disease at the time, or could it have been the calendar thing again?

If we follow the fossil things as being made that way then the coal and oil would be in the same suit?

Then as far as knowledge Adam ate from that tree so how much did he get, a lot I hope, he and his heirs paid dearly.

Not everything with God is a big secret, His Son didn't die in some dark corner but out on a hill for all to see!

A couple things I am totally convinced of and you'll never change my mind. I have spent the last 40 years studying this.

1) What we see in nature and in humans is not the result of millions of happy little accidents. Especially the beginning of life springing from non-life. That's preposterous. There is evidence of design every where you look and design must have a designer.
2) The Earth as we know it is not as old as so called scientists want you to believe. There is plenty of science that backs up the age of the earth as we know it to be a lot younger than millions of years. There has to be a first man and woman, and I believe the description of the man and woman in the book of Genesis is as accurate depiction as the people who passed along the stories of creation could keep them, down through the eons before there were written languages. I also think the concept of original sin is important to the entire narrative of God's relationship to man through the ages.
3) There is so much evidence of a flood it's not even debatable. The ice age resulted from it, tectonic plate movement was involved with it. The entire climate of the earth changed with it, even people started living much shorter lives. The large reptiles couldn't survive the new climate because of the change in the Ozone layer. Throughout the middle east and even africa, aboriginal peoples have a story about a worldwide flood where their ancestors were saved by building a boat. Were there dinosaurs on the ark? It's actually a very plausible theory that young dinosaurs or eggs could have been saved. Either way, the things that happened to create the flood is a very explainable reason for the end of the dinosaurs.

So many scientists are stuck thinking that what they see today has always been slowly changing and you need millions of years to explain it away, so they throw out any scientific evidence that doesn't fit their preconceived beliefs. The history of the Earth is not the result of millions of years of slow change, it is the result of a series of cataclysmic events. When you realize that, the history of the Bible makes a lot more sense.

I don't know much and I admit I know a lot less than I used to think I did. But there are a small number of these cornerstones I am totally convinced of.

There are many different possibilities that could fit within the framework of Divine creation. Genesis describes who (God), what and where (the universe), and when (in the beginning). It doesn't describe why or how, those two items are not necessary for the particular subject matter.

Any attempt to ascribe firm dates and timing is foolish.

The young earth theory began with Bishop Usher in 1625. He said the earth was created on the evening before October 23, 4004 B.C..
That will make the earth 6028 years old this coming October; ridiculous.

It's no wonder that many people mock Christians who believe this. This subject has been co-opted by a small group of closely aligned, and imo, divisive book-writers. I've read these guys books and gone to their seminars, their use of science is very selective, and often times grossly incorrect.

These are the relevant subject matters of the first three chapters of Genesis;
1) God created everything.
2) Mankind was a special creation of God.
3) Mankind chose to rebel against God.
4) God planned a way to restore rebellious men back to Himself.

Bernie, in general, advancements in scientific methodology over the last 30-40 years are strengthening the argument for a very old world. Way too many different aging methods that all roughly concur with each other for it to be scientific error. But like you said, your mind is closed on the subject so there you be. Makes me no never mind.

Is there a creator / intelligent design I think there is.

Did that need a name till man needed to give it a name , not really.

every culture has an origin story , I take Genesis as the Judeo-Christian origin story technically that includes Muslims even if they don't all want to believe it.

all of your cultures of major religion or philosophy generally have an origin story with basic rules on how to get along with each other.

people know how to be bad , people know how to be animals , these histories are largely how to be decent to each other and continue as a people.
could call them simple instructions on how to be a human not an animal.

we have the ones we have because largely those are the peoples that survived

you want an example of a philosophy that wasn't bad but there are basically none of them left Shakers sort of an offshoot of Quakers , but they segregated by sex into dormitories and didn't have any so they have all or nearly all passed now. They relied on recruitment to keep numbers up , that isn't bad just no longer exists.

the basis of most lasting religions is , don't be awful to each other , not every one practices that so well but it is at the basis of most all of them.

some people have to look for the words they can use to justify their reason for disliking another person or group of people.

I sort of figure if the message is get along , don't be awful to each other , then looking for those words in text isn't really the point but , thats me not wanting to look for reasons to fight, just leave me alone and I will leave you alone type of thinking.
and maybe that is to small of thinking.

2 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1 1/3 cups granulated sugar
3/4 cup unsalted butter, softened
4 large eggs
1 cup milk
1 teaspoon baking powder
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
For the chocolate buttercream:
4 cups powdered sugar
1 1/2 cups unsalted butter, softened
2/3 cups unsweetened cocoa powder
3-6 tablespoons half-and-half
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/4 teaspoon salt

How much faith does it take to believe the above will make a cake after you have tasted the cake?

Waggler
Does a God that has the power to have created everything as you stated have the ability to make his creation look older than it is to mankind?
Second question is the linage in the Bible from Adam to Jesus complete and truthful in your opinion?
I'd like as clear as a yes or no answer as possible in your opinion but welcome more clarification on your stance if u feel called.

Why would God do that? Sounds like deception.

Yes, God has the power to do anything, including making creation look older than it is. But why would he do that? I've heard young earthers say that maybe He did that in order to "confuse the wise". That sounds ridiculous to me; my God is a God order, not of confusion.

Yes, I don't have a problem with the linage from Adam to Jesus.

I have a couple of questions for you;
1) If Adam had never sinned, would he have ever died. No.
2) So, essentially, prior to Adam's sin, he was living in eternity, right?
3) How much time lapsed between Adam's creation and his initial sin? A week? A year? Millions of years? You cannot say for certain.

Even parents are smart enough not to share all their knowledge with their young children. Is that deception

Did He not mask His identity from the two disciples on the road after the crucifixion?

waggler u asked me 3 questions u answered for me which logically means you weren't even intrested in my answers so I won't waste my time.
As far as God not wanting us to have all the answers and being all knowing look at my previous post

Whats gap theory? Ancient civilizations?

The most common use of the word deception has the context of I'll or negative motive.
When u place the car keys from a teenager the has a tendency to sneak out at night and "borrow" the car, is the deception or just hiding the keys?

Waggler I had a bit of change of heart for the benefit of the others reading this....
As for # 3.... no I can't say for certain anymore than u can say for certain if we are living on a "young" earth created to not give us all knowledge or an earth million or billions of years old.

I answered both of your questions with a definitive "yes". And you won't answer one of mine? I'll make it easy, just answer question #3.

Its the theory that there is a gap of time in Genesis. The one I am referring to is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Not sure if there are others or not.

The guy who taught his interpretation to our small group believes that the gap separates 2 separate creation stories of humans on the Earth.

Hobbie Trapper,
Weak argument. Nobody recognized Jesus face to face after his crucifixion until they heard his voice. You are trying to build a narrative that does not exist; risky business when dealing with the Bible.

Yes Sir,
God does not make it difficult to find Him, He's actually calling people to Himself. He doesn't not confuse people, confusion is the work of Lucifer.

Never said he makes it difficult to find him. Only way your point has any bearing to this conversation is if the premise of God keeping "his perfect knowledge" from us would limit our ability to draw close to him, which I don't believe is true.
Same analogy as I previously used, does by not sharing everything you know with your 5 year old child hinder their ability to find your love?

Argument? I asked a question. Go “scratch” yourself. lol

Not really. The point of the story is Eve took the first bite, so women are really to blame.

I'm glad you typed this Bernie.
It would have taken me an hour or more.
The evidence of a young earth is strong.
And the science used to date the millions of years is not true science.
There are alot of unexplained things in the fossil record we cannot understand.
And science cant explain without observation.

It's two of each kind. Example dog kind would be a single pair not a pair of wolf's, coyote, husky, ECT. Just a single pair. Also each. Pair would have been young ones. Ie Small and have the longest reproductive life remaining.

Check out the creation museum in KY not far from Cincinnati. The arc is in Williamsburg KY If I remember right it's interesting as well ..


For me the Bible says it and I believe it. All the carbon dating stuff is a joke. There is not enough carbon left to date after about 2500 years. Again aging rocks due to the layers. Sure sounds reasonable. Yet when mount st helen erupted it created a bunch of layers to be created fast and a known exact date they started. Funny thing 25 years later some samples were sent off for dating and cam back millions of years old.

This is laid out well at the creation museum.

God told Adam not to eat the fruit, not Eve. Adam was standing right there when Eve ate the fruit and didn't do anything to stop her. Adam failed in his role as a leader to his wife. It was his job to lead her. and he just stood there like a chump and let her eat the fruit, and even blamed it on her when God asked Adam what happened.

Bernie,
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. There is a lot of evidence that the world is not billions of years old. This evidence includes soft tissue in dinosaur "fossils", etc. There is also a lot of evidence that it is older than 6000 years. This evidence includes, tree rings, ice layers etc.
And there is zero evidence that a gradual process of evolution created life, or the major life forms. Evolution is a created process, that allows the major life forms to make adjusments to changes in their environment. It is not a creative process that actually creates life, organs, or major life forms.
Which Is why I think the gap theory might fit the available evidence as well as any. An earlier creation, of which we know little, which became chaotic, empty, and dark. And the seven days of creation being a "re-creation".

Well typed . Everyone should make a trip to the creation museum. My first trip I thought it was going to be a wast of money. When I left I thought it was money well spent and would gladly pay more than double.

The point of young earth/ old earth is usually an effort to prove or disprove the Bible. If you want the Bible to line up with the common "science" view. You can use scripture in a text to do that. If you believe in a young earth you can use scripture in a context as evidence. I can see evidence on both sides but ultimately my position is it doesn't matter either way and I believe we will never know the truth while we walk on this fallen world.
Waggler the reason I questioned your position is because your original post came across as it was completely foolishness to believe in a "young" earth. I was just trying to make a point that I believe there's evidence it could be. Or it could be trillions of years old. With the possibility of either I think it's counterproductive to come across as one or the other is absurd. That's putting an all knowing God in more of a box than I'm comfortable with. Remember our intelligence compared to God's isn't on par with a 4 year old child compared to an average adult. Not close.

I am a fellow believer that the Bible is 100% true. My problem comes when I see things that are backed scripturally and lend more creedance to what else I accept as probably world views. I am guessing by your response that you are a believer in a young earth? I have gone back and forth on whether I believe the earth is young or not. Im leaning pretty strongly towards the gap theory at this point, but not entirely sold either way. Luckily, my faith doesnt hinge on any of it. I just find it fun to contemplate. I use these sort of things as a puzzle piece and see where else it does or doesnt fit.

I have good news, how old the earth is has no bearing on your salvation.

What do you mean by that?

When making my positions known on the subject I can get a little short with folks; especially fellow believers. There are much more important subjects Christians and the church should be focusing on; like the good news of Jesus Christ.

I really bristle up when I see people like Kenneth Ham and the late Henry Morris capitalize on the subject for their financial gain.

There really wasn't a debate on the subject until those two in particular guys made it one; and no, the age of the earth debate has nothing to do with God creating life, and the evolutionist idea that life sprang from nothing.

In addition to operating from an economic incentive, I think that Ham and Morris are operating from a position of weak faith.
Morris actually thinks that if the earth is extremely old then evolution might be able to take place. This thought threatens his beliefs, so in response to that fear he has to come up with a young earth explanation. This is not a scientific process, and like I just said, it exposes his fear.

I will cite from Morris's book; Scientific Creationism, pg. 228 paragraph 5.
"The geological ages obviously provide the necessary framework of the time for evolution. If the universe began only several thousand years ago, then evolution is impossible".

When Morris refers to "the geological ages" he's referring to those long periods of geological time (millions/billions of years) that geologist refer to.

I don't believe that life can spring from non-life even if the earth were trillions of years old. Morris believes otherwise.

I went to a Kenneth Ham seminar many years ago. In the lobby of the venue was a huge supply of books and curriculum being marketed to home schoolers and other educators.

After the seminar I asked Ham; "If you were to discover or be convinced that your position that the earth is NOT as extremely young as you say it is, would you recall all of your educational material, or at least issue an update expressing your new position".
He would not answer the question.
For him at least, I think it's about the money, and his pride.

Actually the museum in KY was what I was referring to. Some from church went there and I was farming and didn't go nor would I have went anyway, to see a man made prop. I went to Dinosaur, Colorado and saw the real thing in 1977. I guess if God made it to just fool me he did a good job. I would think if dinosaurs had made it off the ark then Nimrod being the mighty hunter he was he would have been in pursuit of one, would have made a great story. Even in the Mesopotamian mythology of Gilgamesh I would think a Dinosaur would have been a more beastly pet for Ishtar to have sicked on Enkidu. She was a Goddess and could have had one but instead chose old Taurus, maybe the dinosaur wasn't available that day. I mean if the mythology was make believe I think they would made it using something they knew about and they must have not known about the dinosaurs and if they had known they would have been the talk of the day because they would have surely whopped those behemoths. Now Dragon Heart that's a creature that made a good story.

To prove your point by using a man made museum leaves me wanting!

Waggler
I'm right there with u on those perverting the Gospel for their own gain. They are right up their with child molesters in my book. I'm pretty quick to judge in this category and don't feel any guilt for.

Most people are trying to make the Bible and its teaching fit into what they think the world is and the way they are living. The Bible is gods word and can not be changed, a lot of people have tried with all of the versions of the Bible. But they are just mans opinions. and your and my opinions do not matter to god.

It's ok to try God though, right?

I think it's important to remember that God exists outside of time and space. Time and space are human concepts.

If you really want millions of years, you could put them between creation and the fall of man. You'll get no argument from the Bible on that one.

Those two concepts should keep you pondering this for a while.

Is the Appalachian Mountains or the Rocky Mountains the oldest?

God didn't tell you about alot of things he knew human being could not handle it all. If you go to Heven when you die you can ask Jesus Sprit to Sprit.

Exactly, plus there could be all sorts of other possibilities and combinations. It is sort of fun to ponder, thankfully, it doesn't really matter.

Habakkuk ask God a lot questions.

2 1-4
2 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Yes

Some people dont even know that the world is flat.

Wrong

I know,
I would explore to find the edge but I'm afraid I'd fall of.

I fell off once but I grabbed the edge and pulled myself back up. I looked down for a moment and saw a Viking ship.

Can you explain “try”?

Sorry had stuff to do.



Try as in test or try as in prove.

Testing Him never seems to go well however I don’t believe it detrimental asking for proof or confirmation. Doesn’t mean we’ll get it but sometimes……..

Can any one of you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is not younger than 6-7K years old?
I know crickets, the same as I cannot prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that life on earth is not billions years old.

The truth lies in the bones and the fossils that we can all see. I for one used to believe Dino bones were 65 million years old. I don’t any more.

Seems to me a rock is a rock.

So......

How old are the dinosaurs?

What happened to the dinosaurs?

Did dinosaurs and man live during same time period on Earth?

When was the last ice age?

How long does it take a large meteor strike/volcano/massive earthquake to weather/age to a point that it is not recognizable as such?

What happened to the Pleistocene flora and fauna...especially all them big critters?

When exactly was the Paleo time period?

How did man get to where we are today thru all of the above? In 6000 years?

Mankind exploded onto the scene, didn't he? Kind of out of nowhere in the grand scheme of things.

6000 years is a very very long time. Enough time to carve canyons and create great hundred feet deposits elsewhere, enough time to flood weather the Sphynx, enough time to put sedimentary rock on the heads of Easter island, and enough time to alter watercourses.

I will answer your questions because it is all very simple.

1. I don’t know how old the Dino’s are. All I know is that they are dead, and thus post-flood.
2. See above statement.
3. I think Noah probably lived with some rough customers, perhaps Dino’s too.
4. Academia tells us the last ice age was ~10K years ago. Do you believe it?
5. I don’t know about the weathering, I guess it would depend.
6. Do you believe everything science tells you is truth? Perhaps the Pleistocene fauna are no older than the dino bones…,.there’s experiments to be had there, but the academics won’t touch it. They call folks like me crazy!
7. Time is a luxury of man. Bones speak for themselves.
8. I no longer belittle my mind with petty simple things like evolution. We live in a far more supernatural and awesome amazing dimensional world and universe.

Here’s a question for you.
Who is the god of this world? Is modern day Gov involved academia truth seeking or intentionally deceiving? Is he he the ruler of deception and manipulation? Even the most brilliant minds sometimes can’t see the forest for all the trees.

The a
Appalachians are much older. They are the eroded base of a mountain range that at one time was much higher. On the other hand the Rocky mountains, the Cascade Mountains, and the Olympic Mountains are still growing, and are younger than the Appalachians.

We all sometimes think that with our present knowledge we have it right. The Jews was big on keeping their lineage all in order. At one time they thought that woman was just an incubator for mans seed. Some where someone started seeing that a boy maybe had his mothers eyes or maybe a girl resembled her father. Philosophers of old has turned into our modern day scientists. The Babylonians seemed to excel in math and medicines and even the Jews had their ideas which at times was as screwed up as the Babylonians ideas about the order of things. Here is a example of some of their ideas on how the world functions which makes me wonder if some of our science that seems so right might make us feel awkward in the future.

https://www.talmudology.com/jeremyb...asra-25b-the-suns-orbit-around-the-earth

This thread has been a good read.

Appreciate you folks putting ‘em out there.

God is the creator of this world. And as you stated time, as we see it, is a luxury of man.

I believe this, so I'll post it again....

Agree.

Swamp Wolf, are his creatures finite? Or just the bodies of his earthly creatures? Seems like angels, except for the angels he told would "die like man" in Psalm 82, exist in infinity. And it seems like our spirits are infinitely going to exist either in Heaven or (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman).

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

We do have limits or bounds. Even our souls.....no matter where eternity finds us.

Adam is mentioned littleraly in Christ genealogy and in other New testament passages.
Or did God breath the breath of life into an ape and it eventually changed dna and became man?

The context when Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible is as GS mentioned is quite literal in pretty much every case so I would assume those of you that think it's taken to literal are basing it off some other evidence than the Bible?

For me the integrity of the Adam account is greatly supported by the rib thing. I don't think the writer even in Moses time or even the redacted account up to 400B.C. would have had the knowledge that a rib would regenerate itself without being inspired by God to write such an account.

The theory of there having been two floods would make sense regarding the fossil record.
Some years ago, I was hunting elk in Colorado. We found sea shells near the top of one of the mountains we were hunting. They were so fragile they crumbled in your hand. I put some in my pocket to show some of the guys i was hunting with. But, when I got down, they had all turned to a white powder. There one other guy up there with me and he verified they were sea shells. I pointed them out to him when I found them. How did sea shells get near the top of that mountain?

One things for sure.
As our Christion leaders and universities continue to ad and subtract from God's word and become more exepting of stange Doctrine. Such as the woke movement, we see our world slipping into a world as in the days of Lott.

Exactly. The big question is: How much longer before God's patience runs out?
The book, The Late Great Planet Earth is spot on. Written in the 70s, it's accuracy is coming to pass.

I have seen sea shells on mountain tops, and sea shell fossils. Even Darwin had serious issues with the fossil record and wrote about how it concerned him. They could have been pushed there by tectonic plate movement when the mountains were formed or they could have been left there by a flood. Get up on top of the mountain in the National Bison range in Montana and you can clearly see the remnants of flooding.

Regarding taking the Bible too literally, I have this to say. When I was young I was told that every single word of the Bible is true. As I got older and wiser, I analyzed that statement along with a LOT of other beliefs. Here's one instance: The writer of the book of Jonah said he was swallowed by a great fish. He was almost certainly swallowed by a whale, which is not a fish but a mammal. It has fins, swims in the sea, so to the writer it was a fish. Does this make me throw out the entire story of Jonah? No. I think Jonah died in the whale and was spit out on the third day, which is an important precursor to the coming death and resurrection of Jesus. He's alive because of a miracle. The old testament is full of references to Jesus, some veiled like this one, some very overt.

So I can't speak for anyone by myself, but I believe saying we may be taking the Bible too literally is just a way to run away from difficult questions, some of which have answers we may never know. The way I would respond is that these stories in the Bible represent truth.

The reason people are so consumed with trying to disprove any kind of creation is because if you do not have creation, you do not have original sin, and there is no need for the death and resurrection of a God/Man to forgive sins. And there is no none to be responsible to but ourselves. Some very complex issues here that are way too deep to cover on a forum like this.

On a side note, I was just reading a book last night about history and exploration of the west. The book was published in 1898 by a person who had studied the native Americans for many years. I'll attach a photo of one paragraph. Most tribes on all continents have similar stories of how there was a great flood and their ancestors were saved by building a boat. Coincidence?



[b][/b]

Then there is the Humanist Manifesto. A group of humanists who reject the claim that the bible is the word of God. They are convinced that the bible was written by humans in an ignorant, superstitious, cruel era. They feel the writer of the book lived in an unlightened era. The book contains errors and harmful teachings.

A statement from the Humanist Manifesto is that no God will save us, we will save ourselves.

The bible predicted there would be these people. Jesus said to his followers some will hate you because of me.

Still making no sense. To what end would God put fakes in his creation?

See Proverbs 25:2 that I quoted in another post. What if he did it as a gift to those who would later enjoy it? I dont believe they were hidden without actually existing, but I try not to question God's motives either. Job tried that and was humbled pretty quickly.

I also happen to lean towards the notion that dinosaurs were real. They could have been a couple different things in my mind, but I believe they were real.

I don't worry about small stuff.I believe in Jesus Christ and attend church to receive Holy Communion

SP94,
I'm not sure how anyone could doubt the existence of dinosaurs? There is simply too much fossil evidence...some being near complete skeletons.

some folks that believe in a young earth would say that because the Bible says humans lived several hundred years, then animals may have lived several hundred years, too, and that dinosaur fossils are just the fossils of lizards that grew big because they lived so long.

Makes you wonder about Giant Sloths, and Giant beaver, and Giant Sage.
would they have kept growing?

There's even some fossil evidence of populations of giant humans..not just 1 or 2 individuals......7' plus tall.

^^^This we know, for the Bible tells us so…..

Goliath and his brothers, King Og, Numbers 13, etc.

Waggler nailed it way back in this thread .

You have now entered the world of the nephilim! Lots of giant civilizations referenced in the OT. When I realized how many there were the OT became even more interesting to me.

Gifts? Maybe I'm just dense, but what are you talking about? Whatever one believes about the fossil record, to believe God is playing tricks on us is just wacky.

So was the Nephilim hybrids or what? Was there females? I've read speculation that the women used pharmacia to brew up drugs to either sedate or poison the big boys. Thus the women were called witches. Again just speculation.

PAskinner, what I’m trying to get across is that if he knew it would be enjoyable for people to dig up/discover fossils then it could be a good gift to those people to have fossils to dig up. I don’t believe he put fossils in the earth without dinosaurs actually existing, I’m just acknowledging that it’s in the realm of possibilities.

Foxpaw, the nephilim would have been fallen angel/human hybrids from my understanding. There is no reason to assume there wouldn’t have been females brought forth from the union as well as males

This is actually a very interesting and plausible concept. Prior to the flood, the Earth and its atmosphere was totally different than it is now and people routinely lived for hundreds of years, there are a few specific ages even mentioned in the Bible. Because fish and reptiles continue to grow as long as they live, it would stand to reason that if they lived for hundreds of years they could get to be enormous. The bigger they get, the bigger their eggs, etc. Which would explain why there are fossils of huge dinosaur eggs.

Well according to "science", birds are dinosaurs, so have fun figuring that one out, lol.

A bird is a bird. Darwin!!

Is 6,000 years enough time for entire populations to have thrived, died, been forgotten, to have lost technologies, and for almost everything of their existence to have disappeared? 6,000 sure doesn't seem very long when you think of it like that does it?

You are right, its unbelievable. God put one tree in the garden and told Adam to leave it alone. The new earther's seem to think God made the oil, coal and fossils and hid them to cause man to unbelieve when he finds them. I can see their point in trying to squeeze down the time line to rule out evolution, but in the their attempt to do so they aren't addressing the fact that things can't evolve from nothing and thus denying a creator and designer unless you stay in their time line.

In church they improvise all kinds of boxes and glass ceilings to hold the congregation. I knew a guy that when he was little they would go to his aunt and uncles house for Sunday dinner. His aunt had no kids and didn't like nasty little kids. So when they would eat she would put him in a big cardboard box to eat . She did that til he was 5 yrs. old. He got so he would throw a fit every time they went there and they finally just quit going. Then fast forward when the aunt was in her 70's and had a leg taken off and needed help her only nephew refused to even see her. I guess he still visioned being put in that cardboard box and did not like it. Myself I don't think God likes it when we put him in a box of our making.

What did God tell Adam about that tree? Did He tell Adam to leave it alone, not to look at it, not to smell it, not to touch it not go near it? Do not eat of it!

What did Eve tell the Serpent they was not to do about the tree? Eve changed it to not to eat of and we are not to touch it!

That gave the Serpent an crack to get in.

Foxpaw
I was wondering, what o you mean by new earthers?

A little late to the party here. Based on scientific and Biblical evidence, I don't believe in the gap theory. The evidence that Carbon-14 is found in dinosaur fossils, when our scientific knowledge about the half-life of Carbon-14 tells us that all Carbon-14 should be fully degraded after about 100,000 years within dinosaur fossils greatly conflicts with the belief that dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Also, the fact that dinosaur digs and fossils still smell like "death" is an interesting observation by scientists that conflicts with the idea of them being millions of years old. When I was young, I distinctly remember a scientist being interviewed on the news and asked if they might ever find dinosaur fossils with "soft tissue," and the scientist responded that that would never happen because dinosaur fossils were millions of years old. Well, even with soft tissues and collagen found within recent dinosaur discoveries, some can never change their belief in "millions of years.". But then again, "neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead (Luke 16:31).

That is the people that think God made the earth in 6 days x 1000yrs per day= 6000 plus something like 4000 yrs plus 2000+ since Jesus. So the earth is only 12,000 yrs old. give or take. That's pretty new and hard for me to believe. The time thing is in the early days of the earth. Can't be convinced the Appalachian mountains got wore down in 12,000 yrs. Its not The Word I have a problem with, its mans interpretation I have a problem with.

There is some differences as to what 2 Peter 3:6,7,8 mean.
Its not something that is as easy as just making stuff up to fit someones ideas.
Kinda like the replacement theology that has been slipped in. The JW's think its all been spiritualized and have themselves all set up to replace the 144,000. Problem is God is not finish with His bride Israel which will be witnesses of the wedding of Jesus and His bride?
I have not studied this in a long time but could in the future, I'm in bean planting right now.

Fox paw, thanks for clarifying.
I thought the term was young earthers, I would have thought New earthers would be about the restoration after the final throne judgment. A new heaven and a new earth.

The world population was approximately 1 billion in 1800.
Now if we had a major event sush as a super volcano eruption, all out nuclear war, a series of major solar flairs causing an emp type scenario. Couldn't that set back our population and technology to the stone age hypothetically. Not to mention the posabilaty of an incurable disease.
We can't know for sure the age of the earth. Being most of us live to be less than 100 years.
So I guess it's up to us as individuals to determine what we believe.
We are taught at a very young age what the world wants us to believe.
So that gives us a pre conceived notion when we think of the age of the earth.
Personally the bible is my authority. And I believe the words of Jesus are recorded correctly.
Jesus spoke of Adam, Jonah, and many others as real peaple.
Jesus is the way, The truth, and the life. In John 6 :63 Jesus said, the words that I speak. They are spirit and they are life.
So how we take that is up to us as individuals.
Pease.

You are right about that, but at least you know where I'm talking about==young earth, lol.

The other thing about those verses in 2 Peter 3:8. Some of them even have it figured out that 1 hr = 41+ years. Those days can't go back past the 4th day when the sun was created. So there is at least 3 days that 2 Peter 3:8 couldn't be talking about in mans time.

Things really sometimes get warmed when discussing the long day when the sun stopped in Joshua. If you go by science they are afraid afraid you are trying to disprove the bible, where they invoke a law of the glass ceiling. One bible study a little ol lady was threatening to hit me over the head with a glass rolling pin if I tried breaking that ceiling with science, lol.

I was thinking about this mowing. Actually I'm mowing.

If you think that earth is 6000 years old and at the same time admit Jesus was 2000 years ago that makes that only 4000 years. And at that point there we were already another thriving civilization. We know bc we are still part of it. So how many thousands of years did it take us to become that by the year 0? Dont you already acknowledge 1000 years before that, more actualky if you think 6000 years old then we were around. @ -4000 years. And how long ago would a lost society have to be have been forgotten for it to have already been forgotten by then? If they knew how the pyramids were built during Jesus time we would still know how the pyramids were built now. Complete technology lost that nobody still knows how to do today.

I mean is there a story in the bible about killing all the Egyptians and throwing away their technology?

^^^^^
The only reset I know of was called the flood, lol!

I just read about Mayan culture change and the reason was---wait for it--------------------yes climate change! They must have been some bad polluters.

We don't even know all the causes, nor how many times the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. But it seems like many had an obsession with getting rid of knowledge and technology of the time.